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Saying that pokemon other than Kyurem have RNG is like saying that pokemon other than Urshifu-Single-Strike do damage as well as a justification for no-ban. Freezing is far more devistating than a special defense drop or a critical hit, not to mention that critical hits are far more rare, being 1/24. Freezing is not exclusive to Kyurem, but Kyurem is the best freezer by far. Arctozolt needs a lot of support to work on a team, needing a minimum of a hail setter. Arctozolt also has much less special attack than Kyurem, often making Blizzard or Freeze Dry a subpar option in many situations. I don't know how this data could be compiled, but the amount of times Arcotozlt gets an opportunity to freeze is far less than Kyurem. Comparing the two is completely absurd. Lastly, using the "it loses to hail teams so it's bad" argument is really not making sense to me. Not only is Kyurem very good against the current most popular hail (Ox Hail) but it also can tank a hit from Arctozolt and OHKO in return, making it generally decent AT LEAST against hail teams.
Let me speak frankly: Comparing being frozen to being SpDef dropped by a Shadow Ball or paralyzed by a Thunderbolt or hit by a Critical Hit is absolutely absurd, and this argument counterpoint should be thrown out immediately by all using it.
The impact of a freeze is far worse than a Special Defense drop. Absolutely no pokemon in the tier (other than ice types that cannot be frozen) can weather the impacts of a freeze without dying the majority of the time. NONE.
I won't go through every ludicrous comparison, but let's take a look at Shadow Ball from Dragapult:
- Dragapult is vastly more frail than Kyurem, and has to pick spots to click Shadow Ball often more carefully than Kyurem with Ice Beam / Freeze Dry.
- Specially Defensive Toxapex lives a Shadow Ball (drop) into another Shadow Ball and is free to Toxic or Knock Off.
- Specially Defensive Clefable lives a Shadow Ball (drop) into another Shadow Ball and still consistently walls with Wish + Protect until another drop.
- HDB Weavile lives a Shadow Ball (drop) into another Shadow Ball and OHKOs in return
- Mandibuzz is not barely inconvenienced by Shadow Ball drops.
- Tyranitar is barely inconvenienced by Shadow Ball drops.
- Specially Defensive Heatran lives a Shadow Ball (drop) into another Shadow Ball
- Assault Vest Melmetal lives a Shadow Ball (drop) into another Shadow Ball easily, taking about 60% and OHKOing in return.
- Specially Defensive Hippowdon lives a Shadow Ball (drop) into another Shadow Ball.
Please tell me a single pokemon that's OK with being frozen, like these pokemon are OK with being Shadow Ball dropped.
Before anyone posts another "Haha well if we should ban kyurem then why dont we ban excadrill bc iron head can flinch" please make sure your post has the following points:
1. Explain why this move can be used as frequently as Kyurem uses Ice Beam or Freeze Dry.
2. Explain why this pokemon is good enough that it can be used in OU regardless of this additional effect, like Kyurem can be.
3. Explain why this secondary effect is as bad as freezing.
If these criteria are not met, please, reconsider your comparison.
I don’t want to formulate an extensive reply to this just yet, but I feel like it’s necessary to note: if a para, crit, spdef drop, or whatever else results in a ko you wouldn’t get otherwise, it is equally impactful as a freeze. Don’t downplay that. Furthermore, Kyurem doesn’t get to freely and inconsequentially click freeze-dry or ice beam. Roost is necessitated by the amount of chip you take in a match; thus, you are made more predictable and can be played around.
Also, I never said that Arctozolt gets to click blizzard as much as Kyurem would it own freezing move. I only brought it up because you acted as if freeze only matters coming from Kyurem. And, no, Kyurem has a horrible mu against hail in general. Both Ninetales-Alola and Arctozolt do well against it. Ninetales-Alola outspeeds and threatens Kyurem with moonblast, whereas Kyurem can’t threaten through aurora veil. For Arctozolt, it has great ranges against Kyurem with low sweep, letting it beat a chipped Kyurem, whether from rocks or some other way, very easily.
Edit: I was gonna change this, but Pinka alr responded. Anyways, I don’t think Kyurem has an AWFUL mu against hail. Tales and Zolt can be exploited, but in general I’d say that it doesn’t have the best mu.
I don’t want to formulate an extensive reply to this just yet, but I feel like it’s necessary to note: if a para, crit, spdef drop, or whatever else results in a ko you wouldn’t get otherwise, it is equally impactful as a freeze. Don’t downplay that. Furthermore, Kyurem doesn’t get to freely and inconsequentially click freeze-dry or ice beam. Roost is necessitated by the amount of chip you take in a match; thus, you are made more predictable and can be played around.
Also, I never said that Arctozolt gets to click blizzard as much as Kyurem would it own freezing move. I only brought it up because you acted as if freeze only matters coming from Kyurem. And, no, Kyurem has a horrible mu against hail in general. Both Ninetales-Alola and Arctozolt do well against it. Ninetales-Alola outspeeds and threatens Kyurem with moonblast, whereas Kyurem can’t threaten through aurora veil. For Arctozolt, it has great ranges against Kyurem with low sweep, letting it beat a chipped Kyurem, whether from rocks or some other way, very easily.
"if a para, crit, spdef drop, or whatever else results in a ko you wouldn’t get otherwise, it is equally impactful as a freeze"
True. They are slightly different, but for the most part this is a true statement. The thing is, there are a huge amounts of situations where a paralysis, critical hit, spdef drop, etc. ARE NOT a death sentence, with them not being a death sentence the vast majority of the time (compared to freeze, which is a frequent death sentence).
"And, no, Kyurem has a horrible mu against hail in general."
As someone who has built many successful hail teams, faced and rated many hail teams, and seen how hail matches up against top level tour teams, I find this statement completely wrong. I don't think we'll be able to reach any kind of consensus on this, and it seems like a side-argument not worth pursuing, however. I look forward to a more extensive reply, so I can see the highest end of the anti-suspect argument for Kyurem.
Not sure if I'm in the minority, but I feel that Heavy Duty Boots has become a weaker item in the current metagame (specifically on non-Rocks weak Pokemon). On Pokemon like Zeraora, Scizor, etc, it normally feels like you'd want the effects of a more useful item like Leftovers or a power boosting item. Leftovers over two turns or Leftovers + Grassy Terrain will basically function the same way Heavy Duty Boots would anyways, assuming only Stealth Rock is laid down. The only times I find Heavy Duty Boots useful on a non-rocks weak Pokemon is when the opponent also has a Spikes setter or is using other entry hazards like Sticky Web. Toxic Spikes can be circumvented by just running a Poison-Type (I usually just run G-Slowking).
Similarly, I'm also finding Defog Corviknight to be a bit weaker in the current metagame. Defog in general is less necessary than it was in prior generations because the Pokemon that need Defog the most, like Volcarona, already have hazard protection they need in the form of Heavy Duty Boots. The primary MU I find Corviknight's Defog really useful against is Spikes teams. However, this is a bit of a catch 22, since you could be running Spikes of your own instead to pressure these teams and it would give you a better matchup against non-Spikes teams. Additionally, I feel that Corviknight isn't really the best at pressuring the two best Stealth Rock Setters, Landorus-T and Garchomp. Against Landorus-T, you are effectively at a stalemate without Brave Bird, since U-Turn and Body Press are doing no damage, letting Landorus-T rack up more Leftovers recovery. Without Iron Defense, I don't think Garchomp is really a good match-up either. You are taking a ton of recoil damage by attacking Garchomp with U-Turn / Body Press / Brave Bird, and these attacks don't deal a ton of damage, especially if Grassy Terrain is up. I normally just set up to +4 with Garchomp and am able to weaken / KO Corviknight with a boosted Rock Slides.
Not worth due to how often it gets knocked off, how little it can do in return to the Pokemon using these moves, and how valuable Leftovers or Rocky Helmet can be when equipped.
With regards to Wacan, you buy yourself a single life-line in a longer game vs Magnezone, which can help in a pinch, but does not necessarily change too much. Tapu Koko, Zeraora, Zapdos, and Dracozolt give you a free U-turn, but nothing much else -- it is not worth it and oftentimes involves a net negative sequence regardless.
With regards to Occa, you can get extra Body Press damage on Heatran or potentially a surprise Brave Bird KO on offensive Volcarona I guess, but these are highly situational, you still do not always win the 1v1, and it does not help vs Victini, Volcanion, or others.
Considering you use Corviknight to switch in to Knock Off and none of these are going to flip a game very often to begin with, I think this should be last resort if ever applied (ideally not at all). For future reference, try asking questions like these here. Thanks and have a nice day.
I'm not taking a stance either way, but I just wanted to mention that although baloor indicated that Kyurem can bluff Choice Specs with Never-Melt Ice, the only scenario in which this can happen if you do your due diligence in calcing is if the Kyurem user is running a Timid nature with Choice Specs because even a max roll for an Ice-type attack from a Modest Never-Melt Ice Kyurem fails to reach the min roll for a Modest Choice Specs Ice Beam or Freeze-Dry from Kyurem.
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 133-157 (18.6 - 21.9%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ SpA Never-Melt Ice Kyurem Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 117-138 (16.3 - 19.3%) -- possible 6HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 145-172 (20.3 - 24%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
It only happens if you get a low roll for the Timid Choice Specs set or a high roll for the Never-Melt Ice set, so being able to bluff the Choice Specs set with the Never-Melt Ice set should not happen that frequently since the damage difference of the attacks can be quite significant. While you will have to do additional scouting in the chance that the damage amount is within that range where a bluff is possible, it shouldn't be that common of an occurrence.
wanted to respond to this quickly just to clarify this point on my previous post. im unsure how much i made "bluffing specs" sound as a selling point on the NMI set, however, its not the main reason to use the set over specs. you're right on your point that its not as strong so anybody who knows how to work a calc can figure it out, in most casual or ladder games ice beam is typically enough to bluff it. youre likely not gonna fool any of the qualified voters or people around that skill level as it loses that novelty after seeing it the third time, it should be obvious that bluffing specs is far from the biggest pro of the set and theres a reason ~50% of qualified voters support action being taken on kyurem. i consider the sets ability to freely click its desired coverage while maintaining somewhat relative damage out to the specs without the downside of being locked into a move to be what makes this set so strong. being able to roost is also great for longevity, especially vs fat teams.
Been delayed because of work and school, but here we go boys (and girls if you're here too)
Leftovers Blaziken
First of all, I know I make way too many Blaziken posts, I have a decent sense of self-awareness, but this is a good one I promise. I tilted badly on the ladder all the way to the 1200's so I decided to try something new. I made a heat team based around lefties sd blaziken and I grinded my way to the low 1500's literally without losing a single game, and I'm not the best player, so I'm pretty confident this is decent. Players that have a bit more experience than me are welcome to disagree, but I legit feel like I'm cheating the ladder so I urge you to try it out for yourself. Here we go! (any Fabrizio Romano fans here?)
Leftovers is the only difference in a set that is nearly identical to standard sd Blaziken. As always, the fourth slot is customizable to fit your team's needs. For reference, earthquake hits toxapex and victini for big damage, and provides a strong move at +2 to hit frailer mons like excadrill and tapu koko/lele without facing recoil or defense drops. Knock Off hits slowtwins, victini, latis, dragapult, and provides utility in knocking tapu fini's leftovers and dragonite's hdb. Thunder punch hits all the bulky waters that resist close combat for super effective damage (pex, fini, peli), and is generally the best coverage option if you can manage to get to +2.
Reasoning
I decided to experiment with lefties blaziken after something in that scarf manectric post a while back got my wheels turning.
- Before we go further, I'd like to run two scenarios by you all, specifically revolving around Manectric's Defensive profile. Manectric's 70 / 60 / 60 may seem unusable, but it's JUST enough to survive crucial hits in absolutely critical scenarios
If this is true, and he backed it up with some calcs, why isn't this relevant to blaziken? 80/70/70 is by no means good, but its considerably better than 70/60/60, so why is blaziken considered to be almost skewda levels of frail? It's because of the damage it does to itself with life orb, it doesn't matter if u survive at 6% if you do 10% recoil right after. There is a reason almost every non ho viable offensive mon has given up this item, it cuts into longevity for damage that can easily be replaced by an alternate item choice, or chip from teammates and hazard support.
Defensive Calcs:
-0 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blaziken: 218-258 (72.4 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-200 SpA Kyurem Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blaziken: 254-300 (84.3 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-0 Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blaziken: 248-292 (82.3 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-0 SpA Tapu Fini Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blaziken: 222-264 (73.7 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blaziken: 126-149 (41.8 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-+1 0 SpA Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blaziken: 126-149 (41.8 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-+2 252+ Atk Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blaziken: 219-258 (72.7 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blaziken: 264-312 (87.7 - 103.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
Lets take subroost kyurem for example, lets say it stays in vs standard lo blaziken and uses earth power, it does 91%, blaziken uses close combat, ohkoing kyurem, but dying from lo recoil. Now with lefties blaziken, you survive at 9%, still ohko kyurem, and recover enough from lefties to switch in on rocks, or survive rough skin/barbs damage. These interactions allow blaziken to be more consistent on a game to game basis. This item choice also greatly increases blaziken's lategame sweeping capability, with its ability to narrowly avoid ko's from priority moves like aqua jet from urshifu and unboosted azumarill, rillaboom's grassy glide after a defense drop, and ice shard/bullet punch/sucker punch even when lower health. These situations would all see blaziken killing itself with lo recoil instead of completing a crucial sweep. I'd also like to refer to Ctann's reasoning on using miracle seed over life orb on rillaboom (which I definitely agree with btw), instead of losing 10% every turn with blaziken, along with flare blitz recoil, you are gaining 6% every turn you don't use flare blitz, while that recoil is softened with a -6%. Now the obvious concern of this set is the offensive calcs, so here are some relevant ones at +2.
Offensive Calcs:
-+1 252 Atk Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-Therian: 304-358 (79.5 - 93.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
-+2 252 Atk Blaziken Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tapu Fini: 274-324 (79.6 - 94.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(weird af that they're the same imao)
-+2 252 Atk Blaziken Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hippowdon: 322-379 (76.6 - 90.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
-+2 252 Atk Blaziken Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 136 Def Garchomp: 336-396 (80 - 94.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
-+2 252 Atk Blaziken Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 166-196 (54.6 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
-+2 252 Atk Blaziken Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Wash: 349-412 (114.8 - 135.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-+2 252 Atk Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 220 Def Zapdos: 334-394 (87.2 - 102.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
-+2 252 Atk Blaziken Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: 369-435 (108.2 - 127.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-+2 252 Atk Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 234-276 (73.8 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
These are still fairly impressive calcs, especially on the likes of tapu fini and landorus-t. I put stealth rocks in these calcs because I think they are necessary to be on the field to attempt to sweep with blaziken. The rest of the mons, other than pex, need fairly minor chip (or none at all) that is pretty easy to achieve, pult needs two rounds of rocks and hippo needs to be softened with teammate support (like toxic). It is also important to note that lefties is a game changer in some of these interactions. In the toxapex mu, usually pex can just haze, recover, and pivot while blaze takes 10% recoil every turn, but with lefties pex is required to make some risky predictions, while blaziken can just spam thunder punch in its face, hoping for some para hax or to outplay haze by swords dancing on a recover turn.
Alright that's it, I truly believe that this is the best blaziken set and that it is much more viable than lo blaziken, I would write more about it if I had the time and I'll try to remember to save my replays imao. After all my rambling about protect sets and defensive investment, I think I've found a happy medium with the og ubers starter. Remember to only attempt to sweep when you are sure your defensive checks are in range, and trust me you will see results that astound you. Just in case anyone was curious about the team i used, its an og double fire core feat fire spin+taunt victini that I will link below. Don't come at me with the "kyu 6-0 imao" shit because I've managed to handle it so far. Thanks for reading! Double Fire Flames
I don’t want to formulate an extensive reply to this just yet, but I feel like it’s necessary to note: if a para, crit, spdef drop, or whatever else results in a ko you wouldn’t get otherwise, it is equally impactful as a freeze. Don’t downplay that. Furthermore, Kyurem doesn’t get to freely and inconsequentially click freeze-dry or ice beam. Roost is necessitated by the amount of chip you take in a match; thus, you are made more predictable and can be played around.
Also, I never said that Arctozolt gets to click blizzard as much as Kyurem would it own freezing move. I only brought it up because you acted as if freeze only matters coming from Kyurem. And, no, Kyurem has a horrible mu against hail in general. Both Ninetales-Alola and Arctozolt do well against it. Ninetales-Alola outspeeds and threatens Kyurem with moonblast, whereas Kyurem can’t threaten through aurora veil. For Arctozolt, it has great ranges against Kyurem with low sweep, letting it beat a chipped Kyurem, whether from rocks or some other way, very easily.
Edit: I was gonna change this, but Pinka alr responded. Anyways, I don’t think Kyurem has an AWFUL mu against hail. Tales and Zolt can be exploited, but in general I’d say that it doesn’t have the best mu.
Maybe beating on a dead horse but although i'm personally not sold in Kyurem being suspected, mostly about the last comment there, Kyurem's MU vs hail is not the best but i think you're downplaying a bit how Kyurem getting in vs say a Tran, Lando, or another mon can result in an awful position by the hail user, especially if rocks are up, since with a little chip it has a chance of KOing tales with Focus Blast ( 61.4 - 72.5% -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock if Ninetales takes a corv u turn through aurora veil and it's not up) and you have to rely on having veil to reliably answer it throughout the game
this guy is like the finchinator of real life you know i would trust him with the keys of my car (finch this is not a joke at ur expense sorry delete this if you want i hope ur having a good day)
This is decent, but not necessarily going to directly accomplish your goal of living a hit from powerful mon in the tier.
Take the Defensive D-Dance set of Dragonite, that can do this
52+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blaziken: 282-334 (93.6 - 110.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
When it comes to physical attackers, you especially need to watch out for STAB mon.
0- Atk Landorus Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blaziken: 312-368 (103.6 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0- Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blaziken: 324-384 (107.6 - 127.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0- Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blaziken: 288-338 (95.6 - 112.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
And these are frankly handicapped sets.
When it comes to Special Attackers, a Galar-Slowking can tear through this.
0 SpA Slowking-Galar Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blaziken: 282-332 (93.6 - 110.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
Keep in mind, we have Tornadus-Therian with the same SpAtk stat, and mon like Zapdos and Tapu Lele with things that are even higher than this.
Now, I'm not an expert, so take my advice with A LOT of salt, but lefties won't really do you much good if you can't live a hit. Blaziken's a mon that isn't really intended for this kind of purpose, but more so for being a speedy physical sweeper. You seem to be emphasizing tanking hits and then hitting back, and if that's what you want to do with Blaziken, you're probably better off sacrificing speed for HP considering you get the luxury of being able to gain speed back each turn. You'd obviously be better with Protect or Substitute for that, but once again, I'm no expert, and I'm not insulting your set or anything, I love the concept. I just want you to know what I think you're getting into when you're actually battling.
This is decent, but not necessarily going to directly accomplish your goal of living a hit from powerful mon in the tier.
Take the Defensive D-Dance set of Dragonite, that can do this
52+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blaziken: 282-334 (93.6 - 110.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
When it comes to physical attackers, you especially need to watch out for STAB mon.
0- Atk Landorus Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blaziken: 312-368 (103.6 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0- Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blaziken: 324-384 (107.6 - 127.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0- Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blaziken: 288-338 (95.6 - 112.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
And these are frankly handicapped sets.
When it comes to Special Attackers, a Galar-Slowking can tear through this.
0 SpA Slowking-Galar Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blaziken: 282-332 (93.6 - 110.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
Keep in mind, we have Tornadus-Therian with the same SpAtk stat, and mon like Zapdos and Tapu Lele with things that are even higher than this.
Now, I'm not an expert, so take my advice with A LOT of salt, but lefties won't really do you much good if you can't live a hit. Blaziken's a mon that isn't really intended for this kind of purpose, but more so for being a speedy physical sweeper. You seem to be emphasizing tanking hits and then hitting back, and if that's what you want to do with Blaziken, you're probably better off sacrificing speed for HP considering you get the luxury of being able to gain speed back each turn. You'd obviously be better with Protect or Substitute for that, but once again, I'm no expert, and I'm not insulting your set or anything, I love the concept. I just want you to know what I think you're getting into when you're actually battling.
Yeah, I do think the EV spread could be optimized a bit more. That being said, against Landorus-T and Garchomp specifically, it is possible to significantly lower their damage output with Grassy Terrain support. It also pairs well with Leftovers, giving Blaziken more longevity.
Hey guys, I wanna share something that I've been tinkering with over the last few days. So, a while back, I made a post about how one should exploit Garchomp's stealth rock resistance and make it more threatening than it already is by using yache / roseli berry on scale shot sets. Some time after that, I said that stealth rock Garchomp sets are basically dead because Corviknight just blows them away. The only exception was its mixed set since it burns metal birbs to a crisp so I figured, why not use something like that. I was somehow stupid enough to say that scale shot Garchomp has the most item versatility and not realize that even if I don't use scale shot set, Garchomp still resists stealth rock. That's why I decided to tinker around and came up with this set, a stealth rocker similar to Heatran that can beat Corviknight and play the long game against Tornadus
Garchomp @ Charcoal
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 72 HP / 176 SpA / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Gentle Nature
- Fire Blast
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic / Stone Edge
This set combines spdef Garchomp's ability to be a buffer against Heatran and Volcarona while keeping maintaining rocks against the two most common defoggers. It does lose to defog Fini but really what stealth rocker doesn't lose to Tapu Fini. The 176 spa evs allows charcoal fire blast to cleanly kill Corviknight in two hits with or without rocks while the 8 spe allows Garchomp to outrun 92 speed Landorus, which has 241 speed. The rest is dumped into spd and hp so that Garchomp can better take hits from Heatran. Since this set lacks the chip recovery from lefties, this one should focus more on keeping rocks on and killing the defoggers. The spdef investment also allows Garchomp to check Tapu Koko although it becomes true to the term since this is not switching into it at all. The last move would depend on how you want to deal with Tornadus. If you wanna play the long game, just poison it but green birb is notorious for not minding toxics that much while stone edge threatens it and Volcarona with instant death, provided it hits of course. Perhaps most importantly, this set completely incinerates Ferrothorn, which is a good thing because Ferrothorn is only fun if you're the one annoying the opponent
Here are the calcs on what this set can do
0 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 72 HP / 252+ SpD Garchomp: 54-64 (14.4 - 17%) -- 43.9% chance to 4HKO after trapping damage
252 SpA Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 72 HP / 252+ SpD Garchomp: 168-200 (44.8 - 53.3%) -- 28.1% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 72 HP / 252+ SpD Garchomp: 254-300 (67.7 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 72 HP / 252+ SpD Garchomp: 272-324 (72.5 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 72 HP / 252+ SpD Garchomp: 181-214 (48.2 - 57%) -- 91.4% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 72 HP / 252+ SpD Garchomp: 132-156 (35.2 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
176 SpA Charcoal Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Corviknight: 200-236 (50.1 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
What pokemon would work well with this? Well, anything that loves the absence and pressure this set puts on metal birbs would work. Scarf Kartana, Rillaboom, Lele, Weavile, you name it. Other good teammates are those that can provide it with recovery. Something like wishport Clef or even wish Blissey
So, why use this set over the regular mixed set? Well, for one thing, mixed Garchomp loses horribly to Heatran. The chip damage from life orb and magma storm adds up real fast. Regular mixed set also loses to Tornadus, who can eat a draco meteor and just run out to a teammate who can abuse the reduced special attack
Lastly, the ev spread on this set is completely customizeable. The only thing that's really needed are charcoal and the 176 spa evs. The rest can go wherever you want. If you don't particularly care about the speed, then sassy nature would even work although you will have to use 28 evs to outspeed Heatran
While I was toying around with this set, another idea suddenly came to mind but I haven't gotten around to testing it out. In gen seven, Garchomp was probably the most reliable rocker because it beats all the defoggers in the tier thanks to the rock or dragon z move. Life orb allows it to achieve the same results but it isn't really an item Garchomp wants to use unless its on hyper offense. What if Garchomp uses its old offensive stealth rock from gen seven set but with hard stone as its item instead of a z crystal? Hard stone gives stone edge just enough oomph to two shot Corviknight and is still an instant death against Tornadus
+2 252 Atk Hard Stone Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 196-231 (49.1 - 57.8%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO
Here are the replays of how charcoal Garchomp can pressure Corviknight and Volcarona when I was clawing my way out of the low ladder
This is decent, but not necessarily going to directly accomplish your goal of living a hit from powerful mon in the tier.
Take the Defensive D-Dance set of Dragonite, that can do this
52+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blaziken: 282-334 (93.6 - 110.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
When it comes to physical attackers, you especially need to watch out for STAB mon.
0- Atk Landorus Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blaziken: 312-368 (103.6 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0- Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blaziken: 324-384 (107.6 - 127.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0- Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blaziken: 288-338 (95.6 - 112.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
And these are frankly handicapped sets.
When it comes to Special Attackers, a Galar-Slowking can tear through this.
0 SpA Slowking-Galar Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blaziken: 282-332 (93.6 - 110.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
Keep in mind, we have Tornadus-Therian with the same SpAtk stat, and mon like Zapdos and Tapu Lele with things that are even higher than this.
Now, I'm not an expert, so take my advice with A LOT of salt, but lefties won't really do you much good if you can't live a hit. Blaziken's a mon that isn't really intended for this kind of purpose, but more so for being a speedy physical sweeper. You seem to be emphasizing tanking hits and then hitting back, and if that's what you want to do with Blaziken, you're probably better off sacrificing speed for HP considering you get the luxury of being able to gain speed back each turn. You'd obviously be better with Protect or Substitute for that, but once again, I'm no expert, and I'm not insulting your set or anything, I love the concept. I just want you to know what I think you're getting into when you're actually battling.
Thanks for the reply! Sorry for the lack of clarification, but this blaziken is in no way meant to take these type of hits, you can use one of my wack ev spreads in my post history for that imao. Lefties on blaziken is more meant to extend its sweeping longevity and survive priority moves, since lo blaziken tends to ko itself around turn 2/3 of a sweep, and blaziken’s typing is actually resistant to most priority moves (bar jet obv). The main goal of lefties blaziken is to be a far more effective cleaner/sweeper than lo blaziken by taking significantly less recoil, not to take powerful hits and ko back. The subroost kyurem example was more to show how blaziken is capable of taking relatively weak super effective hits, where lo would finish blaziken off and lefties would keep it alive to possibly secure another ko. Blaziken never aims to ko the bulky ground types before they are in range of a ohko at +2, hp investment doesn’t let it avoid the ko from these mons.
TDLR: lefties blaziken is still a fully offensive sweeper
Thanks for the reply! Sorry for the lack of clarification, but this blaziken is in no way meant to take these type of hits, you can use one of my wack ev spreads in my post history for that imao. Lefties on blaziken is more meant to extend its sweeping longevity and survive priority moves, since lo blaziken tends to ko itself around turn 2/3 of a sweep, and blaziken’s typing is actually resistant to most priority moves (bar jet obv). The main goal of lefties blaziken is to be a far more effective cleaner/sweeper than lo blaziken by taking significantly less recoil, not to take powerful hits and ko back. The subroost kyurem example was more to show how blaziken is capable of taking relatively weak super effective hits, where lo would finish blaziken off and lefties would keep it alive to possibly secure another ko. Blaziken never aims to ko the bulky ground types before they are in range of a ohko at +2, hp investment doesn’t let it avoid the ko from these mons.
TDLR: lefties blaziken is still a fully offensive sweeper
Dropping Life Orb from sweepers is nothing new or revolutionary. Blaziken could use Heavy Duty Boots, Charcoal, Fist Plate, or even Expert Belt. Blaziken is just not explored often because it is bad. Its checks are common, it is slow, it offers no defensive utility, and it dies to pretty common priority (Aqua Jet & CB Glide after CC drops).
Loosely related to the topic of Kyurem and the topic of dying to every priority attack is that you guys should be trying
It’s not just a Kyurem check, but it definitely can eat any hit except specs ep and then outspeed to either kill or do a ton of damage.
I mentioned it already in the VR thread, but it gives you a strong zapdos/torn/specs pult switch in, and that’s only factoring in meteor beam offensive set (I haven’t even given bulkier a try yet), but meteor beam into power gem ohkos Max spdef landorus, and even stuff you’d assume can check it like chomp and corv and Tran get whittled really quickly.
in terms of what it struggles with, uh basically any physical attack so you’ll wanna account for that (unless it outspeeds them, in which case they may just die).
it has a few different 4th move options, rocks, tspikes, grass knot, tbolt, pain split (my favorite since it lets you beat Chansey/blissey and that’s just really satisfying yknow?)
so yeah, I’m really enjoying this mon, so if any of you have cool sets/spreads/partners, I’m interested since I kinda slap it on every team I try to make currently lol
Loosely related to the topic of Kyurem and the topic of dying to every priority attack is that you guys should be trying
It’s not just a Kyurem check, but it definitely can eat any hit except specs ep and then outspeed to either kill or do a ton of damage.
I mentioned it already in the VR thread, but it gives you a strong zapdos/torn/specs pult switch in, and that’s only factoring in meteor beam offensive set (I haven’t even given bulkier a try yet), but meteor beam into power gem ohkos Max spdef landorus, and even stuff you’d assume can check it like chomp and corv and Tran get whittled really quickly.
in terms of what it struggles with, uh basically any physical attack so you’ll wanna account for that (unless it outspeeds them, in which case they may just die).
it has a few different 4th move options, rocks, tspikes, grass knot, tbolt, pain split (my favorite since it lets you beat Chansey/blissey and that’s just really satisfying yknow?)
so yeah, I’m really enjoying this mon, so if any of you have cool sets/spreads/partners, I’m interested since I kinda slap it on every team I try to make currently lol
This is the best Nihilego set by far. It works well for me in 2000s, currently trying to make a team around it. I've made a lot of good ones, but none that are great yet. Either way, use this set-- it's very very good.
I'm back from a long hiatus to mess around with a few things. I noticed that Hail was very rapidly rising to prominence in OU, and I saw a little bit of talk about Arctovish as a fringe option on Hail, so I figured I'd give this bad boy a go since it was brought up in SQSA and I always felt like, if Hail were to be good, Arctovish would be pretty solid. Well, I played around with it a bit since the set I'm posting here was linked in that thread, and I really do think it deserves to be discussed as a mon with a niche on Hail teams, even if it isn't quite as oppressively strong as Arctozolt can feel at times.
Arctovish @ Life Orb
Ability: Slush Rush
EVs: 160 Atk / 96 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Fishious Rend
- Blizzard
- Freeze-Dry
- Super Fang
I can say, with absolute confidence, that this thing is not Arctozolt whatsoever... but honestly, I also don't feel like it's trying to be Arctozolt either. It has noticeably better bulk than Arctozolt and that bulk is further augmented by the fact that it has the slightest bit of actual defensive utility thanks to its Water-typing making sure it doesn't get completely bricked by occasional Earthquakes and giving it both a Water resistance and a better Ice resistance than its mismatched Slush Rush-abusing fossil counterpart.
While Arctozolt has STAB BoltBeam, which is pretty much the best offensive typing we'll ever see outside of Ubers, I often find Bolt Beak to be a heavily-flawed move on its own. While no Ground-type would ever be comfortable eating Arctozolt's Blizzard or Freeze-Dry, they do happen to have an immunity to its ridiculously powerful Bolt Beak that can, in a pinch, prove useful. Fortunately, Arctovish has access to the move that singlehandedly got Dracovish banned to Ubers a long time ago: Fishious Rend.
Fishious Rend is a much, much better move than Bolt Beak and while the coverage it offers alongside Ice STAB is a little on the redundant side at a glance, the move basically removes Arctovish's need to predict too heavily around threats that might give Hail a hard time otherwise; specifically, Fishious Rend always OHKOs SpDef Heatran and thus gives any team using it something to be afraid of:
160 Atk Life Orb Arctovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 491-580 (127.2 - 150.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This is a huge deal; common Water resists still get battered by Fishious Rend even if it isn't coming close to reaching Dracovish levels of power while also being deathly afraid of Freeze-Dry after some chip, and Ground-types can't even make a half-assed attempt to predict around the move because, unlike with Arctozolt's Bolt Beak, they just outright die to Fishious. It's a great middle ground since Water immunities are basically as commonplace as unicorn sightings in a post-Dracovish meta and as such Arctovish has a move that'll always do damage, and as such teams are ill-equipped to predict around a STAB that they have an immunity to in an attempt to burn precious Hail turns.
While some folks opt to run Substitute to ease prediction as they would on Arctozolt (and it's a perfectly fine option as well), I prefer Super Fang; this is something else Arctozolt just cannot do and as such gives Arctovish a genuine niche over Arctozolt. Super Fang always threatens anything that isn't a Ghost-type, and after entry hazard damage and chip from Hail the move will usually put something in OHKO range of Fishious Rend or one of Arctovish's Ice STABs instead:
96 SpA Life Orb Arctovish Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 135-164 (44.4 - 53.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, hail damage, and Black Sludge recovery
Pex can't realistically take two Freeze-Dry hits well at all if hazards are up, but Super Fang doesn't even require much prediction. Arctovish forces a lot of switches, and if one doesn't want to predict too much one can just hit something with Super Fang and put it into KO range anyway. It's basically an inverse-Substitute on that front since Arctovish doesn't completely gut its longevity to run it. None of the Ghosts want to switch into either of its STABs anyway, so the Super Fang is a pretty safe bet. SubRoost Kyurem also isn't super thrilled about eating a Super Fang, although in a pinch it can stall Arctovish out if healthy; it's a much, much more lopsided matchup if Vish is running Substitute.
Of course, Super Fang offers a little more than just another way for Arctovish to muscle past its opposition; cutting an opponent's health in half is pretty valuable support for its fellow teammates, too. If Arctovish chips away at a team with Super Fang, a Hail team's obligatory Arctozolt in the back has a very easy time sweeping lategame and a hail team's common Volcanion has a pretty easy time blowing up even a Water resist with Steam Eruption and paving the way for either an Arctozolt sweep or a sweep from Arctovish itself. As such, it can form a nasty core with Arctozolt since, together, they can give one-another's checks absolute hell in preparation for one of them to sweep lategame.
TL;DR: I encourage folks to mess around with Arctovish a bit since Hail's already such a strong archetype. It's not something that fits on every Hail team like Arctozolt does, but it offers a few specific quirks that give it a proper niche on Hail.
Hey guys, I wanna share something that I've been tinkering with over the last few days. So, a while back, I made a post about how one should exploit Garchomp's stealth rock resistance and make it more threatening than it already is by using yache / roseli berry on scale shot sets. Some time after that, I said that stealth rock Garchomp sets are basically dead because Corviknight just blows them away. The only exception was its mixed set since it burns metal birbs to a crisp so I figured, why not use something like that. I was somehow stupid enough to say that scale shot Garchomp has the most item versatility and not realize that even if I don't use scale shot set, Garchomp still resists stealth rock. That's why I decided to tinker around and came up with this set, a stealth rocker similar to Heatran that can beat Corviknight and play the long game against Tornadus
Garchomp @ Charcoal
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 72 HP / 176 SpA / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Gentle Nature
- Fire Blast
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic / Stone Edge
Why not use expert belt? if you main target is corviknight you may as well use expert belt, as it allows garchomp to hit targets such as melmetal, aegislash, and toxapex with more power. Personally I will sacrifice the speed as the main goal of this lure set is to nail corviknight, you can drop the speed to tran level with sassy and boost your defensive power. Expert belt if using stone edge also allows you to hit zapdos, torn-t, and dragonite harder.
Dropping Life Orb from sweepers is nothing new or revolutionary. Blaziken could use Heavy Duty Boots, Charcoal, Fist Plate, or even Expert Belt. Blaziken is just not explored often because it is bad. Its checks are common, it is slow, it offers no defensive utility, and it dies to pretty common priority (Aqua Jet & CB Glide after CC drops).
First of all, I never said dropping lo for lefties was something revolutionary, but as far as I can see the only other item ever suggested for blaziken is cb (which is not a great set imo). I think the reason blaziken isn’t explored much is because you can’t just sd up and 6-0 like in previous gens, it requires team support in the form of hazards and other forms of chip. I disagree with the notion that it’s got numerous checks that are common, fini is incredibly easy to chip into range, lando and hippo are running spdef and slowbro has decreased usage. The only relatively common counters are pex and dragonite, and pex can be beat 1v1 under certain circumstances. Blaziken also offers situational defensive utility against weavile, bisharp, and offensive scizor, so no defensive utility seems a bit reductive. In terms of speed, while the initial tier isn’t too impressive, it still outspeeds heatran, adamant rillaboom, modest nidoking, bisharp, and most variants of landorus-t and dragonite, to name a few, so it’s not horrendous. And at +1 you obviously outspeed all the relevant non scarfers, so that’s great. In terms of priority lefties helps greatly and is one of the big upsides to the set. Blaziken tanks ice shard, sucker punch, and bullet punch quite comfortably. Also you should check your calcs, banded glide doesn’t ko after cc drops, and most aqua jets don’t ko from full (bar crawdaunt’s). Anyway I respect your opinion, but I think blaziken is acc a good mon in this meta.
Hey guys, I wanna share something that I've been tinkering with over the last few days. So, a while back, I made a post about how one should exploit Garchomp's stealth rock resistance and make it more threatening than it already is by using yache / roseli berry on scale shot sets. Some time after that, I said that stealth rock Garchomp sets are basically dead because Corviknight just blows them away. The only exception was its mixed set since it burns metal birbs to a crisp so I figured, why not use something like that. I was somehow stupid enough to say that scale shot Garchomp has the most item versatility and not realize that even if I don't use scale shot set, Garchomp still resists stealth rock. That's why I decided to tinker around and came up with this set, a stealth rocker similar to Heatran that can beat Corviknight and play the long game against Tornadus
Garchomp @ Charcoal
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 72 HP / 176 SpA / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Gentle Nature
- Fire Blast
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic / Stone Edge
Why not use expert belt? if you main target is corviknight you may as well use expert belt, as it allows garchomp to hit targets such as melmetal, aegislash, and toxapex with more power. Personally I will sacrifice the speed as the main goal of this lure set is to nail corviknight, you can drop the speed to tran level with sassy and boost your defensive power. Expert belt if using stone edge also allows you to hit zapdos, torn-t, and dragonite harder.
combining these two together for an easy input: I feel like Toxic is in theory better than Stone Edge because of specially defensive Defog Landorus-T. unless you have something else on the team to tackle the landorus-t issue, this garchomp with stone edge is just giving free momentum to lando-t because chomp's attacks are going to be tickling it at best.
on that note, I would like to touch on a different option: aqua tail. if your team doesnt have issue with tornadus-t, aqua tail is a great move to have because it hits lando-t, heatran and volcarona for good damage, without needing to predict.
ultimately, I love the idea and creativity, but I think you are trying to fit two feet into one shoe: trying to lure defoggers with a bulky stealth rock set is hard enough because you need to account for every defogger in the tier besides for the main three. zapdos for example requires you to run 271 speed at least, which means you need to reserve some evs into speed. eq and stone edge with expert belt may also grab some neat kos with more attack investment and, since you're running this set to lure stuff, you may also look at other potential victims like buzzwole (although declining) and usual suspects like the aforementioned pex and melmetal. having no leftovers will still make magma storm chip damage stick anyway, so i feel like sorting out your offense with this kind of chomp is more important. especially because ebelt with only fire blast and eq is really sad, you may as well use flamethrower and leftovers and play the long game, trying to force corviknight to use more roosts rather than blasting it away. conversely, running ebelt with coverage but no atk investment is equally sad and trying to be bulky with 0 recovery whatsoever is unreliable.
may work on a more offensive spread later and edit this post
This is the best Nihilego set by far. It works well for me in 2000s, currently trying to make a team around it. I've made a lot of good ones, but none that are great yet. Either way, use this set-- it's very very good.
would you miss out on any meaningful rolls with timid scarf? +1 speed and snowballing SpA boosts could be nice, but maybe it’s better served as a breaker vs a sweeper
Saying that pokemon other than Kyurem have RNG is like saying that pokemon other than Urshifu-Single-Strike do damage as well as a justification for no-ban. Freezing is far more devistating than a special defense drop or a critical hit, not to mention that critical hits are far more rare, being 1/24.
Let me speak frankly: Comparing being frozen to being SpDef dropped by a Shadow Ball or paralyzed by a Thunderbolt or hit by a Critical Hit is absolutely absurd, and this argument counterpoint should be thrown out immediately by all using it.
The impact of a freeze is far worse than a Special Defense drop. Absolutely no pokemon in the tier (other than ice types that cannot be frozen) can weather the impacts of a freeze without dying the majority of the time. NONE.
I won't go through every ludicrous comparison, but let's take a look at Shadow Ball from Dragapult:
- Dragapult is vastly more frail than Kyurem, and has to pick spots to click Shadow Ball often more carefully than Kyurem with Ice Beam / Freeze Dry.
- Specially Defensive Toxapex lives a Shadow Ball (drop) into another Shadow Ball and is free to Toxic or Knock Off.
- Specially Defensive Clefable lives a Shadow Ball (drop) into another Shadow Ball and still consistently walls with Wish + Protect until another drop.
- HDB Weavile lives a Shadow Ball (drop) into another Shadow Ball and OHKOs in return
- Mandibuzz is not barely inconvenienced by Shadow Ball drops.
- Tyranitar is barely inconvenienced by Shadow Ball drops.
- Specially Defensive Heatran lives a Shadow Ball (drop) into another Shadow Ball
- Assault Vest Melmetal lives a Shadow Ball (drop) into another Shadow Ball easily, taking about 60% and OHKOing in return.
- Specially Defensive Hippowdon lives a Shadow Ball (drop) into another Shadow Ball.
Please tell me a single pokemon that's OK with being frozen, like these pokemon are OK with being Shadow Ball dropped.
Before anyone posts another "Haha well if we should ban kyurem then why dont we ban excadrill bc iron head can flinch" please make sure your post has the following points:
1. Explain why this move can be used as frequently as Kyurem uses Ice Beam or Freeze Dry.
2. Explain why this pokemon is good enough that it can be used in OU regardless of this additional effect, like Kyurem can be.
3. Explain why this secondary effect is as bad as freezing.
If these criteria are not met, please, reconsider your comparison.
Is a freeze always death though? Here's a replay with three freezes (one not by Kyurem) where I managed to win anyway: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1435464986-g5a2d4qivti4bpdwm84zcoiod4jdxo2pw. Obviously freezes don't always happen in situations like this, but I'm not so certain it is quite as different to Shadow Ball drops as you imply, especially given half of the Pokemon you mention have no recovery. The Toxapex here is not Scald.
Is a freeze always death though? Here's a replay with three freezes (one not by Kyurem) where I managed to win anyway: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1435464986-g5a2d4qivti4bpdwm84zcoiod4jdxo2pw. Obviously freezes don't always happen in situations like this, but I'm not so certain it is quite as different to Shadow Ball drops as you imply, especially given half of the Pokemon you mention have no recovery. The Toxapex here is not Scald.
freeze opens up a much larger decision tree than a spdef drop, and every decision it creates has more uncertainty/variation than a shadow ball drop. Let’s say you get the spdef drop, you generally have 2 options, 1) stay in and sac/heal it off if you have a hard counter somehow, or 2) switch out, in which case you’re losing something or severely weakened in order to revenge. It is a big issue and you can’t suffer too many of them, even if you have multiple decent checks to it.
what are your decisions if you’re frozen? Well, you either sent in something to sac or something to take some hits from it, and if it was a sac, usually you can assume it died. So let’s say you send in a magnezone on a freeze dry and get frozen. What are your options? You could switch out, but the issue is back to square one, can you switch anything into kyurem?It has quite a small list of things that can switch in safely, so are you running multiple on a team? If not and you switch out to sac, how many mons on your team can knock out kyurem, even at say76% after rocks? Or, instead do you just stay in since freeze dry doesn’t threaten mag even if frozen? Well, if you do that, you have to weigh out how likely the thaw is vs the likelihood someone can click a setup move while you stay frozen. So, it’s not just the lack of a stable check after a drop, it’s the potential for prolonged, unpredictable inactivity that’s the issue. Just as a comparison to another debilitating status, you have similar odds of being full para’d and thawing on a given turn (granted that doesn’t help the case bc we all know para happens 100% of the time)
Para you have some way of accounting for the hax, burn you know what it does, there’s no variance on that, spdef drop you’re taking more damage, but freeze? It fundamentally introduces chaos into the game (and I don’t think it would ever be brought up if there wasn’t a mon so fat/prolific to abuse it). Consider your replay, you got frozen 3 times and won. You also spent 3 turns frozen. I’ve had 11 turn freezes before. Whether it’s banworthy is another thing, but this level of variance is fundamentally unlike spdef drops, and can’t be accounted for by planning or probability (you build factoring in spdef drop risk from pult, you have to build factoring in kyurem and factoring in freeze, and even then, how many turns do you account for being frozen before your team isn’t threatened by the risk? Imo it’s two completely different categories of effects)
(also completely unrelated but I found this interaction hilarious for some reason from that replay ☆Keen Koga: volcarona ☆TailGlowVM: power gem is roost stalled by volc
Keen Koga has 120 seconds left. ☆Keen Koga: tell that to dead volcornas)
Is a freeze always death though? Here's a replay with three freezes (one not by Kyurem) where I managed to win anyway: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1435464986-g5a2d4qivti4bpdwm84zcoiod4jdxo2pw. Obviously freezes don't always happen in situations like this, but I'm not so certain it is quite as different to Shadow Ball drops as you imply, especially given half of the Pokemon you mention have no recovery. The Toxapex here is not Scald.
Well, the situations where Freeze is debilitating certainly depends on the context. In a match-up like, say, a 1v1 between specially Defensive Dragonite and Corviknight, a Freeze could actually be considered beneficial since it makes it easier for Corviknight to PP stall out Dragonite. That being said, as soon as more mons are integrated into the mix, Freeze does become an issue since it prevents the mon from doing its job. Corviknight can't Defog, Roost, or do any damage when its frozen. Regenerator mons like Toxapex and Slowking can still switch into attacks, but can't perform any of their other functions like Hazing or dealing big damage to the opponent.
With Kyurem, I can understand why Freeze would be a bigger issue. Its big bulk makes it harder to whittle down from neutral attacks letting it get off more Ice Beams / Freeze Dries, and it also threatens to 3HKO nearly every mon in the tier. A lucky Ice Beam freeze on Scizor or Melmetal prevent them from making any progress on Kyurem, making it a free trade off.
Also, I think your replay shows why Freeze is broken if anything. Kyurem beat Mew and Toxapex for free. If your opponent was using bulky SD Scizor, then they would have been have been able to just set up to +6 on the Hippowdon and win the match.
Is a freeze always death though? Here's a replay with three freezes (one not by Kyurem) where I managed to win anyway: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1435464986-g5a2d4qivti4bpdwm84zcoiod4jdxo2pw. Obviously freezes don't always happen in situations like this, but I'm not so certain it is quite as different to Shadow Ball drops as you imply, especially given half of the Pokemon you mention have no recovery. The Toxapex here is not Scald.
It is quite so different. HUGELY different. Half the pokemon I mentioned don't have recovery, true, but if you let your team get consistently battered for free by a frail pokemon like Dragapult that is weak to entry hazards and is forced to run Specs to be scary, you either got outplayed or your team is bad. Very much a different story with Kyurem freezes. Secondly, a circumstantial single replay where freezes didn't make you lose in 1700s only proves that freezing isn't ALWAYS a death sentence, something nobody ever claimed to my knowledge. The problem is the frequency with which it is a death sentence.
