Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

Can we finally ban quick draw and quick claw...
Don't usually post on the forums but I thought I'd say something.

First off, I'm pretty sure 'tiering action' refers to a lot more than just a quickban. I don't mind a Glowbro suspect because washout suspect tests are always fun. That being said...

From the smogon tiering policy framework, for a Pokemon to be banned, it has to reduce the potential for skillful play in a tier by being some combination of really broken, very unhealthy or significantly uncompetitive. I don't think anybody believes that QCQD is broken, and no one is definitely about to suggest that it warps the tier's teambuilding by a significant, if even measurable, amount, so it's not unhealthy either.

That would mean it could only ever be banned for being uncompetitive, specifically for it being too much of an issue of probability management. This is the reason as to why similar strategies are banned, so it follows that QC should be banned too right? Well, not exactly. Smogon's approach to rng mechanics has never been "if it has dice, it gets the ice". The most common examples of banned stuff that was random are:
  • King's Rock
  • Sand Veil
  • Moody
But people tend to take these bans out of context. The reasons why these strategies often end up being banned is due to them being too powerful relative to their randomness, not just because they are random. The reason why King's Rock is banned in some gens and not others is because cloyster simply isn't powerful enough to be noteworthy in those tiers. Have you also noticed that Sand Veil Chomp is only a problem in select tiers and gens and not others too? It's fine in gen 4 ubers, but not OU, banned in gen 5, but fine in gen 6 OU. The reason why is because sand veil is never blanket-banned just for boosting evasion because in some tiers the evasion boost simply isn't too big of a threat to be banned (or the opportunity cost from running something that works 100% of the time instead of 30% was too high). Moody gets banned all the time because it's pretty damn strong all the time. This is also why Metronome is (to my knowledge) never banned, because while you can absolutely highroll the fuck out of your opponent, it's so suboptimal it's not worth banning.

(Somewhat-related-somewhat-unrelated but this is also why we did not implement the 'Freeze Clause' proposal, because the chances of people getting frozen twice are so low that it'd be ridiculous to take action on it-despite double freezes in of themselves being reallly strong)

Put simply, QCQD having a chance to be really stupid will literally never be enough reason to ban it.

Now of course, there is the argument that QCQD is a really powerful and consistently used option, but...is that true? Because you yourself said very clear that it received nearly no tournament usage. The replay you linked saw it doing literally nothing and Separation went on to lose that game too. And as for ladder, it has 0.8% usage at 0-1625, and at 1825 falls off a cliff with 0.08% (rounded up). So it's not doing shit all on ladder and it's not doing shit-all in tournaments (whenever it comes, anyways). This seems like very conclusive evidence that QDQC is not a very powerful Pokemon at all, nor is it worth running.

Fact of the matter is that there are a whole host of setup sweepers in OU that are (a) not garbage, (b) not reliant on a 44/100 roll to deal damage, (c) deal more damage and (d) are easier to setup. The opportunity cost of running Glowbro is massive and it only pops off four out of every ten times, which is assuming it gets to click the setup move. You could unironically count on one hand the amount of 6-0s Glowbro has had in high ladder.

All in all, while a suspect test wouldn't hurt, banning QCQD would be unbelievably silly from a tiering standpoint. At that point you'd be hard-pressed to allow literally any cheese strategies because if something as awful and random as Glowbro was too much, what isn't?

Also, a quick draw + quick claw ban is bad by definition because it's a complex ban. What would happen, if anything, would be a ban of Quick Draw (which probably wouldn't pass either since it's an ability exactly one Pokemon learns; too surgical for a ban) or a ban of Glowbro outright.
 
Don't usually post on the forums but I thought I'd say something.

First off, I'm pretty sure 'tiering action' refers to a lot more than just a quickban. I don't mind a Glowbro suspect because washout suspect tests are always fun. That being said...

From the smogon tiering policy framework, for a Pokemon to be banned, it has to reduce the potential for skillful play in a tier by being some combination of really broken, very unhealthy or significantly uncompetitive. I don't think anybody believes that QCQD is broken, and no one is definitely about to suggest that it warps the tier's teambuilding by a significant, if even measurable, amount, so it's not unhealthy either.

That would mean it could only ever be banned for being uncompetitive, specifically for it being too much of an issue of probability management. This is the reason as to why similar strategies are banned, so it follows that QC should be banned too right? Well, not exactly. Smogon's approach to rng mechanics has never been "if it has dice, it gets the ice". The most common examples of banned stuff that was random are:
  • King's Rock
  • Sand Veil
  • Moody
But people tend to take these bans out of context. The reasons why these strategies often end up being banned is due to them being too powerful relative to their randomness, not just because they are random. The reason why King's Rock is banned in some gens and not others is because cloyster simply isn't powerful enough to be noteworthy in those tiers. Have you also noticed that Sand Veil Chomp is only a problem in select tiers and gens and not others too? It's fine in gen 4 ubers, but not OU, banned in gen 5, but fine in gen 6 OU. The reason why is because sand veil is never blanket-banned just for boosting evasion because in some tiers the evasion boost simply isn't too big of a threat to be banned (or the opportunity cost from running something that works 100% of the time instead of 30% was too high). Moody gets banned all the time because it's pretty damn strong all the time. This is also why Metronome is (to my knowledge) never banned, because while you can absolutely highroll the fuck out of your opponent, it's so suboptimal it's not worth banning.

(Somewhat-related-somewhat-unrelated but this is also why we did not implement the 'Freeze Clause' proposal, because the chances of people getting frozen twice are so low that it'd be ridiculous to take action on it-despite double freezes in of themselves being reallly strong)

Put simply, QCQD having a chance to be really stupid will literally never be enough reason to ban it.

Now of course, there is the argument that QCQD is a really powerful and consistently used option, but...is that true? Because you yourself said very clear that it received nearly no tournament usage. The replay you linked saw it doing literally nothing and Separation went on to lose that game too. And as for ladder, it has 0.8% usage at 0-1625, and at 1825 falls off a cliff with 0.08% (rounded up). So it's not doing shit all on ladder and it's not doing shit-all in tournaments (whenever it comes, anyways). This seems like very conclusive evidence that QDQC is not a very powerful Pokemon at all, nor is it worth running.

Fact of the matter is that there are a whole host of setup sweepers in OU that are (a) not garbage, (b) not reliant on a 44/100 roll to deal damage, (c) deal more damage and (d) are easier to setup. The opportunity cost of running Glowbro is massive and it only pops off four out of every ten times, which is assuming it gets to click the setup move. You could unironically count on one hand the amount of 6-0s Glowbro has had in high ladder.

All in all, while a suspect test wouldn't hurt, banning QCQD would be unbelievably silly from a tiering standpoint. At that point you'd be hard-pressed to allow literally any cheese strategies because if something as awful and random as Glowbro was too much, what isn't?

Also, a quick draw + quick claw ban is bad by definition because it's a complex ban. What would happen, if anything, would be a ban of Quick Draw (which probably wouldn't pass either since it's an ability exactly one Pokemon learns; too surgical for a ban) or a ban of Glowbro outright.
Cant help but notice the lack of snow cloak in this argument which got banned this generation possibly because it contradicts what you are saying as well as referencing different generations with different policies too which should never be brought up as an argument cant define every change based on old philosophies. Further the two are severely underestimated here too if you take just glowbro most teams have two things on a team that can kill it and sure its unfavourable odds but once you outspeed those two it can often claim at least one more by the virtue of them not killing and if screens are included those opportunities go way up trading with those common answers. Outside of glowbro the impact can be massive melmetal a big example of this and many more people see success with others like bulu glastrier for example with them pulling won games completely out of anyone's control which is super dumb

Also not sure the issue with banning the ability and item but I'll leave that because I forgot the definition of complex ban a while ago
 
Cant help but notice the lack of snow cloak in this argument which got banned this generation possibly because it contradicts what you are saying as well as referencing different generations with different policies too which should never be brought up as an argument cant define every change based on old philosophies. Further the two are severely underestimated here too if you take just glowbro most teams have two things on a team that can kill it and sure its unfavourable odds but once you outspeed those two it can often claim at least one more by the virtue of them not killing and if screens are included those opportunities go way up trading with those common answers. Outside of glowbro the impact can be massive melmetal a big example of this and many more people see success with others like bulu glastrier for example with them pulling won games completely out of anyone's control which is super dumb

Also not sure the issue with banning the ability and item but I'll leave that because I forgot the definition of complex ban a while ago
The whole point of bringing up other generations was to show that randomness has never been treated as inherently broken in smogon. Every single one of those generations operates under the tiering policy framework that is applied universally. Also I didn't underestimate Glowbro. 90% of what I said about them is just objective and the usage rates support what I say verbatim.

As it happens, running a Snow Cloak mon is a helluva lot easier than running Glowbro, and is also easier to abuse as well as not being setup-reliant. You also cannot compare Atales and Glowbro with a straight face, hail teams with a snow cloak pokemon aren't remotely comparable to Glowbro.

Edit: I didn't bring up snow cloak because it'd be redundant. But it definittely doesn't "contradict" anything I said, if anything it's another great example of how stuff that's banned that's random is also like...somewhat strong?
 
Last edited:
Ian, summed up most of what I would say very nicely. So heres some dot points of what else I wanted to say:
1. It's not broken. It's Uncompetitive: characterized by a desire to avoid fair competition. It seems no one disagrees it's uncompetitive, people who are against banning its only arguments are about usage and complex bans.
2. Why would Glowbro be suspected? You would simply be banning the ability. Which is exactly what we did with sand veil, we didn't ban chomp lol.
3. Kings rock was banned because it was broken and uncompetitive, Sand veil and bright-powder were banned because they were uncompetitive, these were not even remotely broken this gen.
4. Why are you acting like it is such a slippery slope, like if we ban these uncompetitive items all of a sudden we are going to ban other gimmicks such as FEAR strats. We vote on bans through majority we can draw the line wherever we deem necessary.
Did you not read my post?

  1. There's plenty of stuff that is strictly uncompetitive that also isn't banned. My entire post is about that. Banning something merely for possessing a random element has never been how smogon operates and I can bring up countless examples if the examples I gave aren't good enough.
  2. Sand Veil is on more than one Pokemon. My post also addresses that.
  3. Sand Veil and Bright Powder are quite a bit better than Glowbro (you can run bright powder on any Pokemon, and hippowdon/garchomp are much, much better than Glowbro. And Garchomp sacrifices next to nothing to run sand veil: there's no opportunity cost) which my post also addresses.
  4. It's a slippery slope because there's no proof whatsoever that it's even minutely strong. The reason people argue about usage is because if the mon is so strong, it would be reflected in winrates, or tour usage, or ladder usage, but it's not' the inverse s true.
 
Man, people really will go through all kinds of mental gymnastics to justify keeping QCQD and other similar shit around, won't they? Up to and including blatant lies by omission, it seems. Whether or not a mechanic is competitive (not just broken) has literally always been a factor when considering whether or not something should be banned. We haven't exactly been consistent with that philosophy, but that's not an argument against it. It's about time that tiering philosophy was clarified and adhered to consistently once and for all.

There's a reason why we refer to it as competitive battling, not just balanced battling or fair battling or whatever. There's a reason why we banned OHKO moves, evasion moves, and Bright Powder among others, and it has nothing to do with specific users of these moves being broken. It's farcical (or dishonest) to suggest otherwise, especially by bringing up a bunch of bans that not a single person in the history of ever has claimed were based purely on uncompetitiveness as some kind of shitty attempt at a "gotcha" argument. Not a single person has ever said "if it has dice, it gets the ice", the argument is "if it has dice and literally nothing else, it gets the ice" (hint: that part in the middle is important). Again, more dishonest or horribly misinformed framing.

Anyways, let's talk about competitiveness and player agency, because frankly a lot of people here don't seem to understand it. It's really simple. Competitive games are based on the idea that the players involved in those games should have the highest degree of control over the outcome of the match possible. Most real-world sports are examples of the ideal that competitive games strive for; there's no random number generator in football or whatever, and any variables right down to things like the weight and dimensions of the ball and the evenness and conditions of the field are tightly controlled. Chess is another example of a competitive game; there's one single degree of uncertainty in a chess match and it is who plays as white and therefore gets to move first. The rest is entirely determined by the actions of players.

Competitive video games strive to be as close to this dynamic as possible, sometimes to an absurd degree. RNG-based mechanics are eliminated whereever possible, to the point where in, say, competitive shooters, weapons recoil in predictable patterns and spreads from weapons like shotguns are fixed.

Right about here is where most obnoxious internet contrarians put on their troll face masks and say something along lines of "so you want to ban Scald too then, right? Flame Body? Moves that can miss? All moves that have secondary effects?". The implication here is that it removing all RNG-based mechanics from Pokemon isn't feasible, so we shouldn't even consider competitiveness as a factor when discussing whether or not something should be banned, because some elements of the battle will always be out of the control of the players. Frankly, this isn't a great argument in any circumstance because we already arbitrarily draw lines when determining whether or not a mechanic is broken or overcentralizing; there's no objective standard there either.

It completely falls apart when you try to apply it to mechanics like QCQD, however, because here we aren't even talking about exactly how much RNG needs to be a factor before we ban something, we're talking about whether or not something that is completely based on RNG and nothing else, that has no merit or use or value outside of pure randomness, should be allowed. If the answer to that quesiton is no, then QCQD should go. If the answer is yes, we need to rethink tiering philosophy, rethink several previous bans, and rebrand ourselves, because we aren't a competitive website by definition. We can have discussions about shit like Scald or whatever; there's no room for a discussion about QCQD. Either you allow purely RNG-based mechanics or you don't, and if you allow them, there goes the bedrock of your supposedly 'competitive' metagame.

The fact that (allegedly) competitive players can defend mechanics that they freely admit are entirely uncompetitive in an (allegedly) competitive format on an (allegedly) competitive site hurts my fucking head. I feel like I'm being completely gaslit; maybe I'm the odd one out here? Maybe I'm completely incorrect in assuming that Smogon's tiering philosophy is supposed to result in a metagame that's as competitive as possible? If that's the case, then we should probably be more open about that fact and stop larping as competitive players, because we clearly aren't.

As for being a complex ban, radical fucking idea here, but what if we ban Quick Claw and Quick Draw? Two simple bans, easy.
 
Tbh I have no idea why there are pages of discussion on this when anti RNG items arguments still never manage to disprove or even shake the basic argument behind the pro-ban stance of it putting unnecessary RNG into the game. I respect everyone's time who gave their input, but I still see no reason to not ban such items

Btw, what even constitutes a complex ban at this point? I thought it was just rules that are so specific that they would make the tier too unintuitive for beginners and would start some slippery slope of more very specific bans. To have some rule that says that items like King's Rock or Quick Claw are illegal due to them adding unnecessary RNG isn't complex or hard to understand

Also, if we should only ban shit that's actually good, then why are OHKO moves banned? These aren't good or consistent, but also add uncompetive extra RNG, so they're banned
 
Btw, what even constitutes a complex ban at this point? I thought it was just rules that are so specific that they would make the tier too unintuitive for beginners and would start some slippery slope of more very specific bans. To have some rule that says that items like King's Rock or Quick Claw are illegal due to them adding unnecessary RNG isn't complex or hard to understand
A complex ban constitutes a two part ban, usually of a combination.
Usually something around the lines of x and y cannot be used together, an example would be banning quick claw, but only on galarian slowbro, or saying Clefable cannot run the Magic Guard ability, or Dragapult cannot run Draco Meteor and U-turn on the same set.

Smogon usually tries to avoid these because a combination of broken aspects usually just means you should ban the pokemon itself.
(The QCQD discussion is a tad different though, since both elements are being argued on independantly due to their rng aspect)
 
Last edited:
A ridiculously aggressive and bad-faith post
First off, you can fuck right off about me 'larping' as a competitive player after playing comp pokemon for 5 years, and you could also stand to be less of a dick; I've been completely cordial so far. Seriously I just dropped my two cents and people are accusing me of lying and being a troll because I posted fucking usage rates?? I'm just going to reiterate what I've already said because it answers your post quite well:

  1. There's plenty of stuff that is strictly uncompetitive that also isn't banned. My entire post is about that. Banning something merely for possessing a random element has never been how smogon operates and I can bring up countless examples if the examples I gave aren't good enough.
The reasons why these strategies often end up being banned is due to them being too powerful relative to their randomness, not just because they are random... This is also why Metronome is (to my knowledge) never banned, because while you can absolutely highroll the fuck out of your opponent, it's so suboptimal it's not worth banning.

...

Put simply, QCQD having a chance to be really stupid will literally never be enough reason to ban it.

...This seems like very conclusive evidence that QDQC Glowbro is not a very powerful Pokemon at all, nor is it worth running.
Local Dog OHKO moves are really, really good. A 30% chance to just auto-ko the opposing Pokemon is so much stronger than literally any other random mechanic bar evasion that it's not even close. They would be virtually omnipresent because the opportunity cost for running them is almost null.

I think this argument is between a brick wall and a brick wall. So I will leave it at this, to save us both energy and time.
1. I agree we should ban all these uncompetitive things like metronome as you suggested, but thats a conversation for another day. I don't care how good or bad something is if its uncompetitive ban it.
2. It doesn't matter how Smogon was run, we can change the rules because we are trying to make a competitive game. I can also bring up countless examples of complex bans happening, but that doesn't matter.
Uncompetitive = Ban in my book. Most people wont agree with banning everything like i do but the majority of qualified players do agree on banning QD/QC.
Have a nice day mate.
I like how you asked 'what is the slipper slope?' and then said we should go ahead and ban Metronome. That is exactly what I was referring too when it comes to a slipper slope.

Also, if you don't care how smogon is run (not was, is, because everything I've mentioned is based off tiering policy, which still applies) then why are we even here? This isn't "two brick walls"-you're admitting that banning QCQD doesn't square with how smogon is run in the past or present.

You also swiftly ignored that tiering action =/= a quickban. I've already said that I support a QCQD suspect because it wouldn't make sense with smogon rules to ban it.
 

ironwater

⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡
is a Top Team Rateris a Battle Simulator Administratoris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
OU Forum & RMT Leader
The discussion about Quick Draw and Quick Claw has reached a point where everything interesting was said and it's just derailing the thread now, with people having strong disagreements trying to convince each other over multiple posts. It will be discussed by the council following the last survey and they'll let everyone know if they reach a conclusion. Thus, from now on, please refrain from posting about Quick Draw and Quick Claw.
 
So, how bout that weather?

To not make this a Non sequitur, I am curious where people feel each Weather style sits in current OU, be it relative to each other or just as playstyles. For the sake of argument I'm going to specify Weather as using 2-3 Abusers (the setter can count if built as such) who specifically capitalize on the Weather or the team's building around it (so boosting STABs, Weather driven abilities, Weather Ball Coverage, Sand's SpD boost, etc)
 

ironwater

⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡
is a Top Team Rateris a Battle Simulator Administratoris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
OU Forum & RMT Leader
How about Melmetal
Melmetal is definitively one of the best Pokemon in OU currently and it fits well in a ton of structures. It also appreciates a lot seeing Rillaboom back since Grassy Terrain gives it a massive buff with 12% recovery each turn when paired up with Leftovers which can be even more easily used with Protect. Most sets are Leftovers currently, with still some Assault Vest Melmetal in teams that struggles against threats like Dragapult. More offensive sets like Choice Band have almost completely disappeared because this thing has so much power that you don’t even really need to enhance it even more and rather capitalize on its also amazing defensive utility. Most offensive breakers can’t OHKO it and Double Iron Bash + Earthquake/Superpower for other Steel types like Heatran allows it to threaten offensive teams back with an OHKO on something. I also think that seeing less Toxapex/Slowbro as bulky Water type, with Volcanion/Tapu Fini becoming more common and Corviknight completely falling in usage helped a lot Melmetal, even if some common Pokemon like Zapdos or Rotom Wash can be hard to break (unless you run Toxic Melm).

If it’s hard to deny that Leftovers sets with Thunder Wave/Toxic + three attacks or Assault Vest sets are the best way to use Melmetal, there’s still an interesting set that wasn’t really explored and I’m thinking about Acid Armor Body Press Melmetal. You’ve probably heard of this already, but most people didn’t try it, which makes sense since it has less utility than the previous sets. Though, it can act as a deadly wincon in some matchups and if you have way to beat/cripple its main counters.

:ss/melmetal:
Melmetal @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Acid Armor
- Substitute
- Body Press
- Double Iron Bash

This set easily becomes very threatening and most of the time your opponent won’t expect it meaning you will get more chance to cripple its check before revealing that you are Acid Armor Body Press. This set can’t break through some stuff like Toxapex, which is not that common now anyway, but you can pair it with a trapper able to catch Toxapex and delete it. Dragapult can also be a bit annoying since it can bypass your Substitute, but it won’t be able to come on a Double Iron Bash. You also won’t die to non-modest Flamethrower Dragapult if you are at 100%. This set is particularly good at taking advantage of Ferrothorn switch ins, since you’ll get a free Substitute and Melmetal becomes insanely bulky after 1-2 Acid Armor so that even strong Earthquake/Close Combat won’t even hurt it much. I assume Toxic could also be an option over Substitute to cripple stuff you have trouble beating otherwise like Zapdos and Slowbro.

Anyway, if you have tried this set already, feel free to tell me how it went and what you thought of it, that’s still a niche set compared to the main used ones, but I think it’s a pretty cool one (and I don’t have recent replays with it unfort, but made add some if I try it again).

So, how bout that weather?

To not make this a Non sequitur, I am curious where people feel each Weather style sits in current OU, be it relative to each other or just as playstyles. For the sake of argument I'm going to specify Weather as using 2-3 Abusers (the setter can count if built as such) who specifically capitalize on the Weather or the team's building around it (so boosting STABs, Weather driven abilities, Weather Ball Coverage, Sand's SpD boost, etc)
Shorter answer, but Rain and Sand are both very strong playstyles in the current metagame and they both have tools to beat each other. Sun is way less common, but this also means that people are not always ready to face it and Venusaur is still a massive threat in most matchups. Hail also felt as a playstyle and Arctozolt is not common now, but Veil is still strong with so many different screen abusers, so Ninetales-Alola teams are still common (but I'm unsure of it can count as Hail really). They struggle against other weather teams tho, since ninetales is faster and won't be able to set its weather on turn 1. Add to this the fact that Excadrill/Barraskewda (or even Venusaur) under their respective weather are huge threats for offensive teams due to how fast they become, especially if you haven't be able to set the Aurora Veil. Rain needs to play this matchup carefully though, since Pelipper can't recklessly hard switch against Ninetales Alola on a potential Freeze Dry.
 
Melmetal is a phenomenal pokemon in the current OU metagame.


I gravitate to melmetal a lot in the builder because it's a fairy check that doesn't struggle against fini unlike tran while packing more power than ferrothorn while also keeping weavile and even pult in check.

It fits well on rain, HO, Bulky offense and more

I personally still like the power of band, watching resists to DIB take over 50% or even outright faint in some cases is satisfying, or even ohkoing some Dnite variants, and it's a scary sight on semi trick room teams that use slowbro to both set trick room and get melmetal in safely.

The Pokémon has no real counters and is incredibly versatile.

However I'm not sure that it deserves to be banned. It can be hard to figure out the set at preview, and it's disgustingly bulky, but there are several checks to it like toxapex, corviknight, scizor, slowbro, rotom wash,magnezone, ferrothorn, heatran , zapdos kanto , several of which carry nasty contact effects alongside helmet. And while some of these are not super common I think the metagame has the defensive tools to at least outplay/pivot around melmetal in battle and more offensive teams can still carry powerful juggernauts that outpace melmetal 's low speed tier and lack of priority.
 
However I'm not sure that it deserves to be banned. It can be hard to figure out the set at preview, and it's disgustingly bulky, but there are several checks to it like toxapex, corviknight, scizor, slowbro, rotom wash,magnezone, ferrothorn, heatran , zapdos kanto , several of which carry nasty contact effects alongside helmet.
A lot of these “checks” get destroyed by melmetal on a miss predict though. The safe ones aren’t perfect either, with rotom wash not having reliable recovery and getting worn down by rocks. The only truly safe checks are scizor, which isn’t very good imo, and zapdos who is terrified of knock off. Slowbro is the only good “counter” but it struggles to actually hurt melmetal without rocky helmet, which means it gets worn down by spikes due to it forgoing hdb.

I’m not fully sure if I think melmetal is broken, but it is definitely very difficult to check and is restrictive on team building.
 
A lot of these “checks” get destroyed by melmetal on a miss predict though. The safe ones aren’t perfect either, with rotom wash not having reliable recovery and getting worn down by rocks. The only truly safe checks are scizor, which isn’t very good imo, and zapdos who is terrified of knock off. Slowbro is the only good “counter” but it struggles to actually hurt melmetal without rocky helmet, which means it gets worn down by spikes due to it forgoing hdb.

I’m not fully sure if I think melmetal is broken, but it is definitely very difficult to check and is restrictive on team building.
That's why I said it has no counters. Checks can range from revenge killlers to situational switchins that counter ( at least temporarily) specific sets and can force it out, depending on how you wish to define it.

I find melmetal to not really exert as much pressure in the team builder as much as it does in battle, outside of forcing you to strongly consider having at least one rocky helmet user in addition to iron barbs plus rough skin or static /flame body if possible. But this isn't the worst thing, these abilities are also good for other top tier mons and for detering u-turn spam. Outside of that I end up naturally incorporating checks to melmetal on my team during the building process , and all of the ones I mentioned above are are either OU or UU.
So it's not forcing some weird or completely obscure mons in the builder that only check it


It's also not as bad as something like Urshifu dark that with basically with one set plus future sight support had no switchins in OU, and it could u turn on stuff in addition to having speed control In the form of sucker.


Melmetal's issue is that its versatility is also its bane- it can't fit all the items and moves it wants on one set, having to choose between protective pads and lefties/band or av to do the various things it wants to and choosing between tpunch, ice punch, twave , protect, toxic, acid armor, body press/superpower etc.


However on the flip side, its unpredictability/versatility means that despite having lots of checks to various sets you don't really know what to switch into it during a game since it's nigh impossible to scout , and it's devastating power means something is liable to drop. So you kinda have to hope you can chip it/cripple it with contact effects or at least get the prediction right so you can come in on a resisted hit and threaten it out with the various things that can threaten it. It's bulk however means it can often trade 1 for 1 with stuff making it a very low risk high reward pick.


So I can definitely see why it's on the chopping block but i see it as a mon that you can at least still play around to a much greater degree than previously banned threats and teams naturally fit checks to it.


But I understand the pro ban sentiment and find it a respectable opinion that it would need to go , but I personally don't think it absolutely has to atm.
 
However I'm not sure that it deserves to be banned. It can be hard to figure out the set at preview, and it's disgustingly bulky, but there are several checks to it like toxapex, corviknight, scizor, slowbro, rotom wash,magnezone, ferrothorn, heatran , zapdos kanto , several of which carry nasty contact effects alongside helmet.
Part of the issue with Melm vs these checks is that a number of them are ruined by toxic. Slowbro, Zapdos, RotomW and even Buzzwole, while the others need to be cautious of coverage. Ferro can be chipped by EQs or blown up by superpower, Heatran has to dodge EQs on the way in (making it a risky switch in) as well as Magnezone and Toxapex while Scizor is more of a pick on HO teams. Corv is the best of these checks by far but Corv is famously passive and has been on a downtrend in usage.

And this is all without considering the surge in grassy terrain teams (rilla and less common but still used bulu) on which Protect Melm becomes near immortal. While it can't run every set, it still abuses set variety well and it is immensely splashable itself.

I'm not sure how i feel about it entirely. A top 5 pokemon easily though.
 
in the current metagame is there any use for Latios?
Scarf Latias
Part of the issue with Melm vs these checks is that a number of them are ruined by toxic. Slowbro, Zapdos, RotomW and even Buzzwole, while the others need to be cautious of coverage. Ferro can be chipped by EQs or blown up by superpower, Heatran has to dodge EQs on the way in (making it a risky switch in) as well as Magnezone and Toxapex while Scizor is more of a pick on HO teams. Corv is the best of these checks by far but Corv is famously passive and has been on a downtrend in usage.

And this is all without considering the surge in grassy terrain teams (rilla and less common but still used bulu) on which Protect Melm becomes near immortal. While it can't run every set, it still abuses set variety well and it is immensely splashable itself.

I'm not sure how i feel about it entirely. A top 5 pokemon easily though.
(amlost)Full sdef toxic protect is a ridiculous under grassy terrain. It refuses to die if you can cover its weaknesses well enough.

I've tried a million variations of DDPult and this is the one that stuck out as both wallbreaker and cleaner, preferably with a layer of tspikes up (doesn't even need rocks most of the time). Does really well with psychic terrain support.
Dragapult @ Life Orb
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 8 HP / 188 Atk / 220 SpA / 4 SpD / 88 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Darts
- Hex
- Fire Blast

I struggle to think of any switch-ins if you can get it in safely, which is great seeing as Pult scares off most of OU.

Lately i've been combining bulky specs/band sets to survive certain hits and nab an unexpected kill early game. I feel winning just one of those interactions is enough to get the upperhand vs other bulky teams and with the power level of mons like Lele, Lando and co the calcs still look great. Anyone else have some bulky specs/band favorites?
 
Last edited:
When the poll thing went around, I didn't get why people were even talking about Melmetal. But after trying to play more in tournaments and push myself higher on the ladder I've come to hate this thing.

DIB flinches mean it beats everything that's slower than it and also it can TWave whatever it wants to beat whatever it wants. Or you just run band and your bulky lando-T switch-in you made for the TWave set just got completely obliterated. Or you run AV/leftovers and some slick EVs and suddenly this thing lives hits it honest to God really shouldn't. You can put Melmetal on basically any team for free but playing against opposing Melmetal requires you to expertly scout the right set so you don't lose on the spot. Every single Melmetal check loses to or is crippled by different to a not-too-uncommon Melmetal set.

It's maybe not "broken" in the sense that it'll 6-0 everything or overcentralize the meta, but it is a zero opportunity cost pokemon. There's no reason not to put on your team other than personal preference. And that's kind of lame
 
If zero opportunity cost was enough reason to get a Pokémon banned, Landorus T would’ve been banned every single generation.
Melmetal is stupidly good, but it has some pretty serious flaws that I think keep it from being so overwhelming. One of the biggest is that DiB only has 8 pp, so it can’t be spammed quite as easily as Melmetal would like, along with getting ruined by contact effects. There’s also the major choice between protective pads and leftovers which makes each set very vulnerable to either repeated chip or the aforementioned contact effects
 
I guess I accept, by my logic, that if Melmetal is lame LandoT is also kinda lame. I also agree that Melmetal is not an auto-win button. Once its set is known it can be exploited.

But I feel like LandoT and Melmetal are pretty uncomparable? LandoT is glue and role compression. It can do a bunch of things reasonably well that every team needs, so teams can save a slot or two by using a Lando. But it's not like LandoT is the best at all the things it can do? LandoT can be a suicide lead, if you want, but there are faster suicide leads like Mew who get taunt. LandoT can be your CB wallbreaker, but there are better CB wallbreakers in the tier. LandoT can be a Swords Dance sweeper, but Garchomp does that better. LandoT can be a slow U-turn pivot, but there are slower, sturdier U-turn users like Corv that get reliable recovery, and teleport+regenerator users like Slowbro. LandoT can be your knock off user, but Torn does it faster and Pex does it for longer. LandoT can be your scarfer, but Tapu Lele or Kartana would probably work better.

Nothing does Melmetal things better than Melmetal, and crucially, its sets cover for each other. Ferrothorn beats the CB set but loses to pads + superpower. Zapdos threatens the CB set with static but loses to Toxic + leftovers + protect. LandoT beats the pads set but gets crippled by toxic + protect and dies to DIB or Ice Punch with CB.

LandoT is on every team because, if you're in the teambuilder, have one slot left, and need a choice scarf user and defog, LandoT can do it pretty well. Melmetal is on every team because it can freely pick what it wants to cripple
 
That's why I said it has no counters.
With all due respect, if it has no counters, it should be considered broken and there should at least be a real discussion of the ban hammer. Having a check isnt enough for a lot of threats, especially since there are basically no universal checks to melmetal, its set variety let's it fish for what matchups it wants to be favorable and unfavorable for, and with proper team support stopping melmetal can get really hairy.

Look at this team for example: https://pokepast.es/f72a4d3a7fa1e272

I peaked at 1959 with this team (I was trying to make an RMT but I don't know how to post the mon gifs that other people are doing), and it while it has issues it definitely is a sturdy team against a lot of the meta, particularly heavy physical offense. Now in theory it has some decent melmetal checks, buzzwole eats DIB and gets good chip on it, mandibuzz and hippo should generally be able to check some sets, and volcanion can blow it up and dracozolt being able to do over 60% with bolt beak, but I have been finding that melmetal is still very useful against this team, cuz there are too many goddamn sets to account for.


Melmetal's issue is that its versatility is also its bane- it can't fit all the items and moves it wants on one set, having to choose between protective pads and lefties/band or av to do the various things it wants to and choosing between tpunch, ice punch, twave , protect, toxic, acid armor, body press/superpower etc.
The issue is exactly that melmetal has too many extremely strong sets. Some guy posted above with an acid armor set that looks demonic, there's twave DIB giving the fat slow mons only a 52.5% chance to even move that turn, banded DIB 2HKO's max def buzzwole - which is one of the physically bulkiest mon in the metagame other than melmetal - pads gets past flame bodies and barbs, leftovers protect toxic is also infuriating to deal with if you don't have a steel type (which can be trapped by zone), and AV can force or give you unexpected trades that should be favorable.

I really think it's the forcing trades that makes melmetal so good. I used to play a bit of chess back in the day, and an important strategy for newer players to remember is that in general if you are up in material, you should trade as much as possible until the end game where what seems like a measly one pawn is actually an insurmountable advantage. For example if you have toxic protect DIB high horse power in grassy terrain, you might force the opponent to sack heatran to deal with melmetal, and that could open up your weavile or make your slowbro a lot better in that game. I dont think I've ever see good player not get at least 60% off and a status on a mon with their melmetal.

Part of the issue with Melm vs these checks is that a number of them are ruined by toxic. Slowbro, Zapdos, RotomW and even Buzzwole, while the others need to be cautious of coverage. Ferro can be chipped by EQs or blown up by superpower, Heatran has to dodge EQs on the way in (making it a risky switch in) as well as Magnezone and Toxapex while Scizor is more of a pick on HO teams. Corv is the best of these checks by far but Corv is famously passive and has been on a downtrend in usage.
Exactly this. I definitely think that melmetal should be banned cuz we'd see a healthier metagame

Dragapult @ Life Orb
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 8 HP / 188 Atk / 220 SpA / 4 SpD / 88 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Darts
- Hex
- Fire Blast

I struggle to think of any switch-ins if you can get it in safely, which is great seeing as Pult scares off most of OU.
I like the set, but mandibuzz is really good counter to this, I don't feel like calcing but maybe if burned the pult can break through. I think also a healthy pex can stop it, but obviously you have status team support.


Lastly, I feel like there has been a recent influx of calm mind suicune, which is really difficult to deal with because of pressure + substitute, so everytime you bring in a mon to stop it there are very favorable odds of getting burned in a longer match. How have you guys been prepping for it, both in and out of the teambuilder?
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 4)

Top