Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

In the future, use the Simple Questions, Simple Answers thread for questions like these (or better yet: look it up on a website like Bulbapedia or Smogon).
Thank you very much for your answer.
I forgot about the simple question simple answer, so I apologize for this.

As about bulbapedia....I could have sworn that I looked it up tgere and I was still confused.
This happened long ago so I may confused this memeory with the memory of some other move.
 
I believe that sleep clause is considered a controversial choice that should not be made again. In my opinion, any match on showdown should be possible, exactly as it happened, on cartridge. Battle timer is also a feature that somewhat exists on cartridge and I consider it to be an outside of battle mechanic, in a way.

If I play on cartridge with others and we give ourselves the same time limits as on showdown, any showdown match is again replicable on cartridge. This does not apply to sleep or freeze clause
Sleep clause actually was a cartridge mechanic until gen 5, we just decided to keep it afterwards because it massively improved the competitive landscape (even if sleep should probably be banned, but that’s a whole different discussion). I’m personally not opposed to having some slight modifications, but keeping a mod that goes against policy just because it’s been there for a long time while denying things like quick claw is what I find strange.

I do want to add that I think the council is valuable, and that they’ve done a great job dealing with gen 8 considering how much of a train wreck it’s been, I’m just confused on some of their choices
 
How do you "outplay" Bright Powder, or Focus Band?
Yes ok they might be frustrating when they activate but they also have low activation chances. The games they do activate you lose but at the end of the day, not everybody runs these items.

in other words: they are frustrating when they occur, but not everybody runs them. Its rng dependent but at the end of the day, usage is low because of it doesn't exactly matter that much imo.
 
Yes ok they might be frustrating when they activate but they also have low activation chances. The games they do activate you lose but at the end of the day, not everybody runs these items.

in other words: they are frustrating when they occur, but not everybody runs them. Its rng dependent but at the end of the day, usage is low because of it doesn't exactly matter that much imo.
I think you're completely missing the point. It isn't that the activation chance is low, it's that there's even a chance it happens. With abilities and items like QDQC, it's blatantly uncompetitive because it bypasses the regular turn bracket which limits offensive counterplay. It's one thing if it is a more integrated rng component like paralysis, sleep, freeze, confusion, critical hits, and rolls because removing them takes away from the fundamentals of the game. However, much like evasion based abilities and items and King's Rock, Quick Draw and Quick Claw are very surface level. By playing competitively, you are playing to minimize risk so you can manage rng related elements in game. QDQC artificially decreases the ability to manage risk, which is broken and uncompetitive, and is why it needs removed.
 
With all this talk about the relation between being uncompetitive and being banworthy, I thought I'd just leave my two cents. First, let's define what is competitive; something being not broken requires two fundamental principles:
  1. X must have reliable counterplay.
  2. Said counterplay must be something you don't have to go out of your way to include. The counterplay should be something that naturally slots in the meta and would have a serious reason to be used even if X wasn't in the meta.
Basically, an element being competitive in the meta means that the opponent can reasonably respond to whatever the user does. With these two principles in mind, we can naturally define an uncompetitive element as something that invalidates things that should be able to counter your Pokemon. King's Rock was ruled uncompetitive and ultimately banned because its flinch chance of a multi-hit move had a real chance of letting Cloyster just unga-bunga its way through things that should be able to counter it. OHKO moves and raising evasion are banned because while unreliable they have a chance to make counterplay a nonfactor through blind luck. However, there is a bit more to defining this as displayed by one ability: Serene Grace. After all, if King's Rock was uncompetitive because it let certain Pokemon flinch through their checks, shouldn't an ability that also lets certain Pokemon flinch their way through checks be banned under the same principle? Well, there are three key differences with Serene Grace:
  1. Serene Grace does not create the anti-counter condition, but simply amplifies a pre-existing trait of the move. Serene Grace itself does not actually cause a Pokemon to flinch. It simply tilts pre-existing RNG more in the user's favor.
  2. Serene Grace has applications outside of flinching. While flinching is the most defining part of Serene Grace in practice, its effect at least theoretically has more applications that don't. You could use Flamethrower/Fire Blast for an extra burn chance or use SG Body Slam if your SG mon can't easily slot Thunder Wave; burn and paralysis definitely put your opponent at a disadvantage in most cases, but a burned or paralyzed counter can potentially still do its job against the particular target.
  3. Getting a Serene Grace flinch still requires the player's active input. Since the effect is an extra benefit of an attack, benefitting from it naturally requires the user to opt into the flinch move.

Simply put, Serene Grace can give a Pokemon an abnormal advantage but can't automatically win games by itself. With Quick Draw/Quick Claw, however, you see that it violates these principles Serene Grace maintains. QDQC is the direct cause of any counterplay invalidation since the explicit purpose of this ability and item is to make the user move first and invalidate offensive counterplay in the process when it does activate. Second, QDQC does not have any application outside of this role; that invalidation is the only thing it can do. Meaning that QDQC does not actually add anything to the meta. Third, the effect triggering at random regardless of player choice means the user doesn't have to do anything for the effect to happen. QDQC fundamentally removes player choice without the user needing to do anything, and that is its entire purpose. This combo is the source of the problem, offers nothing outside of creating this problem and can alter the course of games without player input while removing the opponent's ability to play against it. As such, I would argue QDQC is uncompetitive and deserves to be banned.
 
Excuse me, what? tell me how that flinch rate exactly? Serene Grace Doubles King's Rock Flinch rate by 20%. so each hit of the Multi-strike hits has 20% chance to flinch.
kings rock only affects moves w/o flinch chances and gives em a 10% flinch rate. also please like stop talking about inner focus. 1) the best counter play to flinching is to just outspeed. if your team has no speed control-barring maybe stall- then its a bad team and ur gonna lose to any other strat.
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Excuse me, what? tell me how that flinch rate exactly? Serene Grace Doubles King's Rock Flinch rate by 20%. so each hit of the Multi-strike hits has 20% chance to flinch.
Five 20% chances does not guarantee a 100% chance. The chance of not flinching for each hit is 80%, so the chance of not flinching in 5 turns is 80%^5 which is around 33%.
The chance of at least one flinch is 67% then, rather than 100%.
 
When I know that Inner Focus is an Counterplay to Serene Grace Flinch, but there isn't a lot of pokemon who use this ability rather than grant immnity to Intidimate. having Serene Grace, King's Rock and a Multi-Strike Move and if it hits 5 times, causes a 100% flinch, and that pokemon who has a it is Dunsparce's Scale Shot. Pretty unpractical and no use whatsoever

A Serene Grace Facts: Thunder has the same chance to Paralyze as Body Slam (30% normal / 60% Serene Grace)

And those who don't know that Priority moves bypass Quick Claw and Quick Draw prority Bracket and Bisharp with Sucker Punch is more likely to Take out a chipped Slowbro-Galar and it will be Revenge Killed by a Focus Sash Excadrill.
Relying on Focus Sash users to revenge kill is a bad idea. Most of the time your Sash will be broken by Stealth Rock or some other passive damage and you'll be unable to RK. And having to run Bisharp on every team to not risk a hax loss to G-Bro is unreasonable. It doesn't fit well on every team.
 
In my opinion, Garchomp isn't good enough to be on top ten lists for SS OU. It doesn't feel as good as other options in most scenarios.

I would replace it on the list with Kartana, due to it being so strong and being able to use several different sets (my favorite is choice band, especially paired with Slowbro).

You could also replace Garchomp with Melmetal, who is absurdly bulky and hits so hard. It has excellent coverage to compliment its power and it is great at spreading paralysis, although in my opinion its best set is the Assault Vest one so that it can tank Flamethrowers and other powerful special moves. These two steel types are extremely good Pokémon in OU and I think are much more worthy of a top 10 placement than Garchomp.
I think this post that I made way pretty stupid. I've used Garchomp a lot more now (its prob #10 for me), and also realized that AV Melmetal sucks (use band or leftovers).

Edit: I also said that my favorite Kartana set is band, which is arguably the worst. Use scarf or LO.
 
I also believe that QCQD is uncompetitive. Unlike king’s rock, there are no real broken abusers of Quick Claw, just pokemon that are annoying to deal with if they’re running Quick Claw. Actually, there is definitely counterplay to Quick Claw. The solution to an opponent’s Quick Claw Melmetal with Ice Punch is to never risk an Earthquake with Lando-T and instead use your slow walls to slowly chip down the Melmetal.

Such a playstyle is extremely passive and boring. Just because the opponent has Quick Claw, you are forced to drop all your offenses and erode it little by little. Nearly no one wants to play like this, which is why they take the risk of using Earthquake and now have a 20% chance to just die flat out. So while QCQD does have counterplay, its just so unfun and uncompetitive to try and do. Your Lando-T may be able to beat every other Melmetal set, but because this one has QC the most safest play is accepting that your Lando-T can only beat the Melm 80% of the time and you’re better off stalling.

On Glowbro, QCQD is actually not that bad to deal with, just uncompetitive. Glowbro has only base 100 Sp.Atk which is the same as Mew, and even though Mew has a better BST and movepool, it isnt a special wallbreaker. Glowbro is just a pain to deal with whenever you get unlucky.
 
I saw on porydex that at 1825+, most players (46%) are running scarf over specs, is it just me or is that a huge metagame oversight? While I respect that lele has a decent speed tier while still being strong, I feel like the opportunity cost of the breaking power of specs is too much to give up. With the right prediction, specs can take a mon with every free turn lele gets, but I never feel like opposing scarf lele is much of a threat, too many mons (corv, clef, hippo) can pivot in without any real consequence.
 
I saw on porydex that at 1825+, most players (46%) are running scarf over specs, is it just me or is that a huge metagame oversight? While I respect that lele has a decent speed tier while still being strong, I feel like the opportunity cost of the breaking power of specs is too much to give up. With the right prediction, specs can take a mon with every free turn lele gets, but I never feel like opposing scarf lele is much of a threat, too many mons (corv, clef, hippo) can pivot in without any real consequence.
Scarf lele is used as speed control/ revenge killer, notably revenging weavile and specs or band pult. Specs lele thrives against fat but scarf thrives against offense
 

Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
I saw on porydex that at 1825+, most players (46%) are running scarf over specs, is it just me or is that a huge metagame oversight? While I respect that lele has a decent speed tier while still being strong, I feel like the opportunity cost of the breaking power of specs is too much to give up. With the right prediction, specs can take a mon with every free turn lele gets, but I never feel like opposing scarf lele is much of a threat, too many mons (corv, clef, hippo) can pivot in without any real consequence.
Scarf Lele isn't meant to rip teams apart. It's supposed to clean up weakened teams. If you run into one, chances are the thing is backed up by other heavy hitters like Garchomp or Weavile, among others. It's not an oversight either since scarf Lele has been a thing even last gen although I can't really say how common it was. Regardless of that, scarf Lele is simply one of the better scarfers around. The only other ones that come to mind are Kartana and Blacephalon. Paper beast has a really bad offensive typing and clown ghost gets worn down much quicker. Just as specs Lele can just spam its stabs, so too can scarf sets with the only difference being their main job and the tier isn't really lacking for firepower
 
I saw on porydex that at 1825+, most players (46%) are running scarf over specs, is it just me or is that a huge metagame oversight? While I respect that lele has a decent speed tier while still being strong, I feel like the opportunity cost of the breaking power of specs is too much to give up. With the right prediction, specs can take a mon with every free turn lele gets, but I never feel like opposing scarf lele is much of a threat, too many mons (corv, clef, hippo) can pivot in without any real consequence.
That's just it: with the right prediction. Making a wrong prediction can invite in dangerous pokemon. Like if it clicks the wrong move at the wrong time, for example clicking a psychic stab as heatran comes in, that is a freer invide for something like Weavile to come in and that's not a mon you want getting free turns. Specs lele also needs a fair amount of support and the speed tier can be middling at times.

Scarf is meant to clean up weakened teams and act as generally great speed control. It also is generally better at supporting while still pushing out nice damage as scarf can run modest and not really miss any important mons while still catching timid pult and all zeraora. Scarf also notably has the trait of being arguably the best future sight user in the tier, helping many pokemon break past would be answers and in general pushing big damage on things. And because of this, scarf Lele isn't that easy to pivot into.

As far as Corv and Hippo, the former has been on a decline for a while due to the tragic passivity it has. And Hippo while seeing some new usage lately, is still a very rare sight in OU.
 
I saw on porydex that at 1825+, most players (46%) are running scarf over specs, is it just me or is that a huge metagame oversight? While I respect that lele has a decent speed tier while still being strong, I feel like the opportunity cost of the breaking power of specs is too much to give up. With the right prediction, specs can take a mon with every free turn lele gets, but I never feel like opposing scarf lele is much of a threat, too many mons (corv, clef, hippo) can pivot in without any real consequence.
As the above posts said, specs Lele's main issues are that its middling speed tier and lack of defensive utility means that it matches up poorly against offensive teams and mandates a lot of team supports, limiting the builds it can fit on. Even against balance and fatter teams, it's still somewhat inconsistent due to prediction and focus blast missing. Specs Lele has power in spades, but that's it. Meanwhile, scarf Lele is much more versatile, providing a generalized form of speed control that many teams appreciate, and it can still contribute to wall-breaking through future sight or pack utility such as aromatherapy. Of course, it's not going to break mons like Corv since that isn't its role. Not every offensive piece needs to have specs Lele's wall-breaking prowess and scarf's versatility and ease of fitting on teams means that it sees more usage.
 
That's just it: with the right prediction. Making a wrong prediction can invite in dangerous pokemon. Like if it clicks the wrong move at the wrong time, for example clicking a psychic stab as heatran comes in, that is a freer invide for something like Weavile to come in and that's not a mon you want getting free turns. Specs lele also needs a fair amount of support and the speed tier can be middling at times.
You can say the same thing about predictions letting in dangerous threats for scarf lele, since it's choice locked as well, and you can fit future sight on specs if you want to, it'd work mechanically as well. Same goes for fitting in options like aromatherapy, if it's useful for your team you can put it on specs lele.



Scarf is meant to clean up weakened teams and act as generally great speed control. It also is generally better at supporting while still pushing out nice damage as scarf can run modest and not really miss any important mons while still catching timid pult and all zeraora. Scarf also notably has the trait of being arguably the best future sight user in the tier, helping many pokemon break past would be answers and in general pushing big damage on things. And because of this, scarf Lele isn't that easy to pivot into.

I'd argue that scarf blaceph does it better than lele, better speed tier, ghost stab is nearly unwallable, not to mention beast boost can quickly snowball in the late game.

As far as Corv and Hippo, the former has been on a decline for a while due to the tragic passivity it has. And Hippo while seeing some new usage lately, is still a very rare sight in OU.
People lament that the steel bird isnt what it used to be, but Corv is still top 11 in usage at 1825+, and hippo sees like 4% usage, which isnt nothing. I also forgot to mention picks like gastrodon, glowking and other miscellaneous mons like reuniclus that handle scarf, and then even mixed def clef can check scarf as well depending on the spread, all of these fold to specs and arent uncommon in the metagame whatsoever. I'm not saying scarf isn't great, but when lele's stabs blow everything up short of calm heatran - with rocks up offensive tran dies to two specs psychics - it just seems like a missed opportunity to run specs, even if it needs some support, slow u-turns and teleports can give it a free switch in, and the opponent is in trouble, cuz literally nothing in the entire metagame can safely switch into specs lele thanks to psyshock and its other coverage, which cant be said for scarf. Future sight is scary, but that's been true for SS OU for years now.


I don't mean to be excessively argumentative or rude to anyone, it's that with my experience opposing specs lele has been much more threatening, especially since half the time the opponent can just brainlessly click psychic unless you have 1 of the two OU dark types, more so now cuz melmetal is running AV far less often.


Speaking of weavile, I'm wondering why max def buzzwole isnt used more. Yes buzzwole has to run from anything with a special move, but it walls/checks garchomp, lando, weavile, bisharp, non-banded melmetals, ferrothorn, and can pivot on a banded ttar stone edge and having okay odds to live - buzzwole has the capacity to check huge swathes of the metagame, and I think it should be used more.
 

Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
Speaking of weavile, I'm wondering why max def buzzwole isnt used more. Yes buzzwole has to run from anything with a special move, but it walls/checks garchomp, lando, weavile, bisharp, non-banded melmetals, ferrothorn, and can pivot on a banded ttar stone edge and having okay odds to live - buzzwole has the capacity to check huge swathes of the metagame, and I think it should be used more.
Because max def Buzzwall is passive and isn't that much of a threat. The perk of Buzzwall rn is the fact that it can wall those threats while still posing a threat with close combat. Max def Buzzwall was used much during the early crown tundra days and it was to completely blank physical Pheromosa and Urshifu but it fell out of favor because it was too passive. Now, it can actually be a decent threat will still providing its defensive utility
 
You can say the same thing about predictions letting in dangerous threats for scarf lele, since it's choice locked as well, and you can fit future sight on specs if you want to, it'd work mechanically as well. Same goes for fitting in options like aromatherapy, if it's useful for your team you can put it on specs lele.
Future sight doesn't get the specs boost unless the user is on field.

I think you aren't understanding (and i don't mean this in a rude way). The speed tier difference is massive and impacts what teams specs sets fit on. Scarf Lele's better speed tier lets it have more positive match ups and it enables team mates better.

I'd argue that scarf blaceph does it better than lele, better speed tier, ghost stab is nearly unwallable, not to mention beast boost can quickly snowball in the late game.
Scarf Blacephalon is undeniably effective but it also has major issues. It is massively frail which in conjunction with a big stealth rock weakness, makes it require more aggressive play to get in. It can snowball late game which is what makes it good, but itself needs more support to function than Lele.

People lament that the steel bird isnt what it used to be, but Corv is still top 11 in usage at 1825+, and hippo sees like 4% usage, which isnt nothing.
Ladder usage famously (or infamously) isn't always representitive of a mon's relevance. For example prior to its bulky leftovers set being discovered, Rillaboom had fallen off hard and was a mediocre pokemon at the time that consistently remained around top 20 in usage for months. Corviknight's tourney usage is way down compared to in the past.

As for Hippo, it has seen some new usage but 4% in the grand scheme of things is still quite small.

I also forgot to mention picks like gastrodon, glowking and other miscellaneous mons like reuniclus that handle scarf, and then even mixed def clef can check scarf as well depending on the spread, all of these fold to specs and arent uncommon in the metagame whatsoever.
Gastro and Glowking help pivot around it but Psyshock can 2HKO both just from scarf Lele (and not needing timid). Reun... Isn't awful but also is super super niche and very hard to use right now. And mixed Clef IS uncommon compared to its main sets. Most Clef spec mainly into phys defense lately.

I'm not saying scarf isn't great, but when lele's stabs blow everything up short of calm heatran - with rocks up offensive tran dies to two specs psychics - it just seems like a missed opportunity to run specs, even if it needs some support, slow u-turns and teleports can give it a free switch in, and the opponent is in trouble,
If it were that simple then specs lele would probably be dominating everything but pokemon is more than just raw damage. Specs lele needs quite a bit of support. Scarf lele both dishes damage and adds support, which is nice role compression in one slot.

Lele has the most effective future sights as it isn't as passive/exploitable as slowbro sometimes is and it leverages its speed and power to force switches which position it better to throw them out.

Speaking of weavile, I'm wondering why max def buzzwole isnt used more. Yes buzzwole has to run from anything with a special move, but it walls/checks garchomp, lando, weavile, bisharp, non-banded melmetals, ferrothorn, and can pivot on a banded ttar stone edge and having okay odds to live - buzzwole has the capacity to check huge swathes of the metagame, and I think it should be used more.
As Red Raven said, it is far too passive and has very little offensive presence as a result. The common spreads ran on Buzz are still able to check Weavile, Garchomp, Melmetal... Not so much Ferro since you're a potential leech seed or knock off victim and it doesn't want to lose its rocky helmet. It also still can pivot into banded Ttar generally and roost off the damage.
 
Speaking of weavile, I'm wondering why max def buzzwole isnt used more. Yes buzzwole has to run from anything with a special move, but it walls/checks garchomp, lando, weavile, bisharp, non-banded melmetals, ferrothorn, and can pivot on a banded ttar stone edge and having okay odds to live - buzzwole has the capacity to check huge swathes of the metagame, and I think it should be used more.
I think Maximum Defense Buzzwole is a Pokémon you should never willingly run, it is a terrible Pokémon in my humble opinion. It gives unlimited free switch-ins to Clefable, Toxapex, Slowking-G, Corviknight, it is one of the best ways to undo any progress you have made against opposing balance and stall teams. Even in match-ups where it should be good, like opposing offense, it probably needs to click Close Combat against Kartana or Weavile, and then the opponent gets to immediately capitalize on the lowered defensive stats. Also suffers from 4-move syndrome, since it wants STAB and Roost, which gives it 2 coverage moves to work with; without Ice Punch, it can't actually fight off SD + Fire Fang Garchomp, without Earthquake it is never threatening Toxapex, without Poison Jab it does nothing to Clefable, without Thunder Punch Corviknight sits endlessly on it, and without Toxic it is never making any progress against Tornadus, Zapdos and Hippowdon. Fighting + Bug is an awful STAB combination in this metagame.

Only situation where I consider max physdef Buzzwole for a team is typically on sand teams, since it's the only Pokémon that can shore up most of Tyranitar's and Excadrill's shared physical weaknesses (Kartana, Urshifu, Garchomp) in one slot, but then you actually play the game rather than just theorize in the builder, and against offensive teams it gets reduced to a Roost-bot and against defensive teams you end up not using it at all, because it gives Clefable a free switch-in every single time.

I think if you use Buzzwole, you need to use it offensively, 3 attacks + Expert Belt or even outright Choice Band, or at the very least some offensive investment. Future Sight support is also good. But defensive Buzzwole is terrible in my humble opinion.
 

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