I think you're completely missing the point. It isn't that the activation chance is low, it's that there's even a chance it happens. With abilities and items like QDQC, it's blatantly uncompetitive because it bypasses the regular turn bracket which limits offensive counterplay. It's one thing if it is a more integrated rng component like paralysis, sleep, freeze, confusion, critical hits, and rolls because removing them takes away from the fundamentals of the game. However, much like evasion based abilities and items and King's Rock, Quick Draw and Quick Claw are very surface level. By playing competitively, you are playing to minimize risk so you can manage rng related elements in game. QDQC artificially decreases the ability to manage risk, which is broken and uncompetitive, and is why it needs removed.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
With all this talk about the relation between being uncompetitive and being banworthy, I thought I'd just leave my two cents. First, let's define what is competitive; something being not broken requires two fundamental principles:
Simply put, Serene Grace can give a Pokemon an abnormal advantage but can't automatically win games by itself. With Quick Draw/Quick Claw, however, you see that it violates these principles Serene Grace maintains. QDQC is the direct cause of any counterplay invalidation since the explicit purpose of this ability and item is to make the user move first and invalidate offensive counterplay in the process when it does activate. Second, QDQC does not have any application outside of this role; that invalidation is the only thing it can do. Meaning that QDQC does not actually add anything to the meta. Third, the effect triggering at random regardless of player choice means the user doesn't have to do anything for the effect to happen. QDQC fundamentally removes player choice without the user needing to do anything, and that is its entire purpose. This combo is the source of the problem, offers nothing outside of creating this problem and can alter the course of games without player input while removing the opponent's ability to play against it. As such, I would argue QDQC is uncompetitive and deserves to be banned.
- X must have reliable counterplay.
- Said counterplay must be something you don't have to go out of your way to include. The counterplay should be something that naturally slots in the meta and would have a serious reason to be used even if X wasn't in the meta.
- Serene Grace does not create the anti-counter condition, but simply amplifies a pre-existing trait of the move. Serene Grace itself does not actually cause a Pokemon to flinch. It simply tilts pre-existing RNG more in the user's favor.
- Serene Grace has applications outside of flinching. While flinching is the most defining part of Serene Grace in practice, its effect at least theoretically has more applications that don't. You could use Flamethrower/Fire Blast for an extra burn chance or use SG Body Slam if your SG mon can't easily slot Thunder Wave; burn and paralysis definitely put your opponent at a disadvantage in most cases, but a burned or paralyzed counter can potentially still do its job against the particular target.
- Getting a Serene Grace flinch still requires the player's active input. Since the effect is an extra benefit of an attack, benefitting from it naturally requires the user to opt into the flinch move.
Simply put, Serene Grace can give a Pokemon an abnormal advantage but can't automatically win games by itself. With Quick Draw/Quick Claw, however, you see that it violates these principles Serene Grace maintains. QDQC is the direct cause of any counterplay invalidation since the explicit purpose of this ability and item is to make the user move first and invalidate offensive counterplay in the process when it does activate. Second, QDQC does not have any application outside of this role; that invalidation is the only thing it can do. Meaning that QDQC does not actually add anything to the meta. Third, the effect triggering at random regardless of player choice means the user doesn't have to do anything for the effect to happen. QDQC fundamentally removes player choice without the user needing to do anything, and that is its entire purpose. This combo is the source of the problem, offers nothing outside of creating this problem and can alter the course of games without player input while removing the opponent's ability to play against it. As such, I would argue QDQC is uncompetitive and deserves to be banned.
Dusk Mage Necrozma
formerly XenonHero126
That’s not how math works.
As I said,
Excuse me, what? tell me how that flinch rate exactly? Serene Grace Doubles King's Rock Flinch rate by 20%. so each hit of the Multi-strike hits has 20% chance to flinch.
kings rock only affects moves w/o flinch chances and gives em a 10% flinch rate. also please like stop talking about inner focus. 1) the best counter play to flinching is to just outspeed. if your team has no speed control-barring maybe stall- then its a bad team and ur gonna lose to any other strat.
Relying on Focus Sash users to revenge kill is a bad idea. Most of the time your Sash will be broken by Stealth Rock or some other passive damage and you'll be unable to RK. And having to run Bisharp on every team to not risk a hax loss to G-Bro is unreasonable. It doesn't fit well on every team.
I think this post that I made way pretty stupid. I've used Garchomp a lot more now (its prob #10 for me), and also realized that AV Melmetal sucks (use band or leftovers).
Edit: I also said that my favorite Kartana set is band, which is arguably the worst. Use scarf or LO.
I also believe that QCQD is uncompetitive. Unlike king’s rock, there are no real broken abusers of Quick Claw, just pokemon that are annoying to deal with if they’re running Quick Claw. Actually, there is definitely counterplay to Quick Claw. The solution to an opponent’s Quick Claw Melmetal with Ice Punch is to never risk an Earthquake with Lando-T and instead use your slow walls to slowly chip down the Melmetal.
Such a playstyle is extremely passive and boring. Just because the opponent has Quick Claw, you are forced to drop all your offenses and erode it little by little. Nearly no one wants to play like this, which is why they take the risk of using Earthquake and now have a 20% chance to just die flat out. So while QCQD does have counterplay, its just so unfun and uncompetitive to try and do. Your Lando-T may be able to beat every other Melmetal set, but because this one has QC the most safest play is accepting that your Lando-T can only beat the Melm 80% of the time and you’re better off stalling.
On Glowbro, QCQD is actually not that bad to deal with, just uncompetitive. Glowbro has only base 100 Sp.Atk which is the same as Mew, and even though Mew has a better BST and movepool, it isnt a special wallbreaker. Glowbro is just a pain to deal with whenever you get unlucky.
Such a playstyle is extremely passive and boring. Just because the opponent has Quick Claw, you are forced to drop all your offenses and erode it little by little. Nearly no one wants to play like this, which is why they take the risk of using Earthquake and now have a 20% chance to just die flat out. So while QCQD does have counterplay, its just so unfun and uncompetitive to try and do. Your Lando-T may be able to beat every other Melmetal set, but because this one has QC the most safest play is accepting that your Lando-T can only beat the Melm 80% of the time and you’re better off stalling.
On Glowbro, QCQD is actually not that bad to deal with, just uncompetitive. Glowbro has only base 100 Sp.Atk which is the same as Mew, and even though Mew has a better BST and movepool, it isnt a special wallbreaker. Glowbro is just a pain to deal with whenever you get unlucky.
Has the metagame changed at all? I have not played for a few months.
I saw on porydex that at 1825+, most players (46%) are running scarf over specs, is it just me or is that a huge metagame oversight? While I respect that lele has a decent speed tier while still being strong, I feel like the opportunity cost of the breaking power of specs is too much to give up. With the right prediction, specs can take a mon with every free turn lele gets, but I never feel like opposing scarf lele is much of a threat, too many mons (corv, clef, hippo) can pivot in without any real consequence.
Scarf lele is used as speed control/ revenge killer, notably revenging weavile and specs or band pult. Specs lele thrives against fat but scarf thrives against offense
Red Raven
I COULD BE BANNED!
Scarf Lele isn't meant to rip teams apart. It's supposed to clean up weakened teams. If you run into one, chances are the thing is backed up by other heavy hitters like Garchomp or Weavile, among others. It's not an oversight either since scarf Lele has been a thing even last gen although I can't really say how common it was. Regardless of that, scarf Lele is simply one of the better scarfers around. The only other ones that come to mind are Kartana and Blacephalon. Paper beast has a really bad offensive typing and clown ghost gets worn down much quicker. Just as specs Lele can just spam its stabs, so too can scarf sets with the only difference being their main job and the tier isn't really lacking for firepower
That's just it: with the right prediction. Making a wrong prediction can invite in dangerous pokemon. Like if it clicks the wrong move at the wrong time, for example clicking a psychic stab as heatran comes in, that is a freer invide for something like Weavile to come in and that's not a mon you want getting free turns. Specs lele also needs a fair amount of support and the speed tier can be middling at times.
Scarf is meant to clean up weakened teams and act as generally great speed control. It also is generally better at supporting while still pushing out nice damage as scarf can run modest and not really miss any important mons while still catching timid pult and all zeraora. Scarf also notably has the trait of being arguably the best future sight user in the tier, helping many pokemon break past would be answers and in general pushing big damage on things. And because of this, scarf Lele isn't that easy to pivot into.
As far as Corv and Hippo, the former has been on a decline for a while due to the tragic passivity it has. And Hippo while seeing some new usage lately, is still a very rare sight in OU.
Dusk Mage Necrozma
formerly XenonHero126
Quick Claw doesn’t grant priority, it just makes the user move first within its priority level.
As the above posts said, specs Lele's main issues are that its middling speed tier and lack of defensive utility means that it matches up poorly against offensive teams and mandates a lot of team supports, limiting the builds it can fit on. Even against balance and fatter teams, it's still somewhat inconsistent due to prediction and focus blast missing. Specs Lele has power in spades, but that's it. Meanwhile, scarf Lele is much more versatile, providing a generalized form of speed control that many teams appreciate, and it can still contribute to wall-breaking through future sight or pack utility such as aromatherapy. Of course, it's not going to break mons like Corv since that isn't its role. Not every offensive piece needs to have specs Lele's wall-breaking prowess and scarf's versatility and ease of fitting on teams means that it sees more usage.
You can say the same thing about predictions letting in dangerous threats for scarf lele, since it's choice locked as well, and you can fit future sight on specs if you want to, it'd work mechanically as well. Same goes for fitting in options like aromatherapy, if it's useful for your team you can put it on specs lele.
I'd argue that scarf blaceph does it better than lele, better speed tier, ghost stab is nearly unwallable, not to mention beast boost can quickly snowball in the late game.
People lament that the steel bird isnt what it used to be, but Corv is still top 11 in usage at 1825+, and hippo sees like 4% usage, which isnt nothing. I also forgot to mention picks like gastrodon, glowking and other miscellaneous mons like reuniclus that handle scarf, and then even mixed def clef can check scarf as well depending on the spread, all of these fold to specs and arent uncommon in the metagame whatsoever. I'm not saying scarf isn't great, but when lele's stabs blow everything up short of calm heatran - with rocks up offensive tran dies to two specs psychics - it just seems like a missed opportunity to run specs, even if it needs some support, slow u-turns and teleports can give it a free switch in, and the opponent is in trouble, cuz literally nothing in the entire metagame can safely switch into specs lele thanks to psyshock and its other coverage, which cant be said for scarf. Future sight is scary, but that's been true for SS OU for years now.
I don't mean to be excessively argumentative or rude to anyone, it's that with my experience opposing specs lele has been much more threatening, especially since half the time the opponent can just brainlessly click psychic unless you have 1 of the two OU dark types, more so now cuz melmetal is running AV far less often.
Speaking of weavile, I'm wondering why max def buzzwole isnt used more. Yes buzzwole has to run from anything with a special move, but it walls/checks garchomp, lando, weavile, bisharp, non-banded melmetals, ferrothorn, and can pivot on a banded ttar stone edge and having okay odds to live - buzzwole has the capacity to check huge swathes of the metagame, and I think it should be used more.
Red Raven
I COULD BE BANNED!
Because max def Buzzwall is passive and isn't that much of a threat. The perk of Buzzwall rn is the fact that it can wall those threats while still posing a threat with close combat. Max def Buzzwall was used much during the early crown tundra days and it was to completely blank physical Pheromosa and Urshifu but it fell out of favor because it was too passive. Now, it can actually be a decent threat will still providing its defensive utility
Future sight doesn't get the specs boost unless the user is on field.
I think you aren't understanding (and i don't mean this in a rude way). The speed tier difference is massive and impacts what teams specs sets fit on. Scarf Lele's better speed tier lets it have more positive match ups and it enables team mates better.
Scarf Blacephalon is undeniably effective but it also has major issues. It is massively frail which in conjunction with a big stealth rock weakness, makes it require more aggressive play to get in. It can snowball late game which is what makes it good, but itself needs more support to function than Lele.
Ladder usage famously (or infamously) isn't always representitive of a mon's relevance. For example prior to its bulky leftovers set being discovered, Rillaboom had fallen off hard and was a mediocre pokemon at the time that consistently remained around top 20 in usage for months. Corviknight's tourney usage is way down compared to in the past.
As for Hippo, it has seen some new usage but 4% in the grand scheme of things is still quite small.
Gastro and Glowking help pivot around it but Psyshock can 2HKO both just from scarf Lele (and not needing timid). Reun... Isn't awful but also is super super niche and very hard to use right now. And mixed Clef IS uncommon compared to its main sets. Most Clef spec mainly into phys defense lately.
If it were that simple then specs lele would probably be dominating everything but pokemon is more than just raw damage. Specs lele needs quite a bit of support. Scarf lele both dishes damage and adds support, which is nice role compression in one slot.
Lele has the most effective future sights as it isn't as passive/exploitable as slowbro sometimes is and it leverages its speed and power to force switches which position it better to throw them out.
As Red Raven said, it is far too passive and has very little offensive presence as a result. The common spreads ran on Buzz are still able to check Weavile, Garchomp, Melmetal... Not so much Ferro since you're a potential leech seed or knock off victim and it doesn't want to lose its rocky helmet. It also still can pivot into banded Ttar generally and roost off the damage.
I think Maximum Defense Buzzwole is a Pokémon you should never willingly run, it is a terrible Pokémon in my humble opinion. It gives unlimited free switch-ins to Clefable, Toxapex, Slowking-G, Corviknight, it is one of the best ways to undo any progress you have made against opposing balance and stall teams. Even in match-ups where it should be good, like opposing offense, it probably needs to click Close Combat against Kartana or Weavile, and then the opponent gets to immediately capitalize on the lowered defensive stats. Also suffers from 4-move syndrome, since it wants STAB and Roost, which gives it 2 coverage moves to work with; without Ice Punch, it can't actually fight off SD + Fire Fang Garchomp, without Earthquake it is never threatening Toxapex, without Poison Jab it does nothing to Clefable, without Thunder Punch Corviknight sits endlessly on it, and without Toxic it is never making any progress against Tornadus, Zapdos and Hippowdon. Fighting + Bug is an awful STAB combination in this metagame.
Only situation where I consider max physdef Buzzwole for a team is typically on sand teams, since it's the only Pokémon that can shore up most of Tyranitar's and Excadrill's shared physical weaknesses (Kartana, Urshifu, Garchomp) in one slot, but then you actually play the game rather than just theorize in the builder, and against offensive teams it gets reduced to a Roost-bot and against defensive teams you end up not using it at all, because it gives Clefable a free switch-in every single time.
I think if you use Buzzwole, you need to use it offensively, 3 attacks + Expert Belt or even outright Choice Band, or at the very least some offensive investment. Future Sight support is also good. But defensive Buzzwole is terrible in my humble opinion.
Glitchwood High
formerly Err0r Mobutt
Don't usually post on the forums but I thought I'd say something.
First off, I'm pretty sure 'tiering action' refers to a lot more than just a quickban. I don't mind a Glowbro suspect because washout suspect tests are always fun. That being said...
From the smogon tiering policy framework, for a Pokemon to be banned, it has to reduce the potential for skillful play in a tier by being some combination of really broken, very unhealthy or significantly uncompetitive. I don't think anybody believes that QCQD is broken, and no one is definitely about to suggest that it warps the tier's teambuilding by a significant, if even measurable, amount, so it's not unhealthy either.
That would mean it could only ever be banned for being uncompetitive, specifically for it being too much of an issue of probability management. This is the reason as to why similar strategies are banned, so it follows that QC should be banned too right? Well, not exactly. Smogon's approach to rng mechanics has never been "if it has dice, it gets the ice". The most common examples of banned stuff that was random are:
- King's Rock
- Sand Veil
- Moody
(Somewhat-related-somewhat-unrelated but this is also why we did not implement the 'Freeze Clause' proposal, because the chances of people getting frozen twice are so low that it'd be ridiculous to take action on it-despite double freezes in of themselves being reallly strong)
Put simply, QCQD having a chance to be really stupid will literally never be enough reason to ban it.
Now of course, there is the argument that QCQD is a really powerful and consistently used option, but...is that true? Because you yourself said very clear that it received nearly no tournament usage. The replay you linked saw it doing literally nothing and Separation went on to lose that game too. And as for ladder, it has 0.8% usage at 0-1625, and at 1825 falls off a cliff with 0.08% (rounded up). So it's not doing shit all on ladder and it's not doing shit-all in tournaments (whenever it comes, anyways). This seems like very conclusive evidence that QDQC is not a very powerful Pokemon at all, nor is it worth running.
Fact of the matter is that there are a whole host of setup sweepers in OU that are (a) not garbage, (b) not reliant on a 44/100 roll to deal damage, (c) deal more damage and (d) are easier to setup. The opportunity cost of running Glowbro is massive and it only pops off four out of every ten times, which is assuming it gets to click the setup move. You could unironically count on one hand the amount of 6-0s Glowbro has had in high ladder.
All in all, while a suspect test wouldn't hurt, banning QCQD would be unbelievably silly from a tiering standpoint. At that point you'd be hard-pressed to allow literally any cheese strategies because if something as awful and random as Glowbro was too much, what isn't?
Also, a quick draw + quick claw ban is bad by definition because it's a complex ban. What would happen, if anything, would be a ban of Quick Draw (which probably wouldn't pass either since it's an ability exactly one Pokemon learns; too surgical for a ban) or a ban of Glowbro outright.
Cant help but notice the lack of snow cloak in this argument which got banned this generation possibly because it contradicts what you are saying as well as referencing different generations with different policies too which should never be brought up as an argument cant define every change based on old philosophies. Further the two are severely underestimated here too if you take just glowbro most teams have two things on a team that can kill it and sure its unfavourable odds but once you outspeed those two it can often claim at least one more by the virtue of them not killing and if screens are included those opportunities go way up trading with those common answers. Outside of glowbro the impact can be massive melmetal a big example of this and many more people see success with others like bulu glastrier for example with them pulling won games completely out of anyone's control which is super dumb
Also not sure the issue with banning the ability and item but I'll leave that because I forgot the definition of complex ban a while ago
Glitchwood High
formerly Err0r Mobutt
The whole point of bringing up other generations was to show that randomness has never been treated as inherently broken in smogon. Every single one of those generations operates under the tiering policy framework that is applied universally. Also I didn't underestimate Glowbro. 90% of what I said about them is just objective and the usage rates support what I say verbatim.
As it happens, running a Snow Cloak mon is a helluva lot easier than running Glowbro, and is also easier to abuse as well as not being setup-reliant. You also cannot compare Atales and Glowbro with a straight face, hail teams with a snow cloak pokemon aren't remotely comparable to Glowbro.
Edit: I didn't bring up snow cloak because it'd be redundant. But it definittely doesn't "contradict" anything I said, if anything it's another great example of how stuff that's banned that's random is also like...somewhat strong?
Last edited: