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Been using this on an offense since I feel like that's where you would ever use Scarf Clef seeing as its team specific. Healing Wish is nice for offensive partners that may go out pretty quickly like Life Orb QD Mosa and Specs Aegi. Speed is to outrun non scarfed Lati I know ben gay uses speed for chomp and below so that's applicable as well I just copied what I had in builder so any EV gurus could make better spreads.
Speaking of partners who appreciate a second wind.
I think somebody mentioned this before in this thread? Dragonite is a slightly anti-meta against more offensive teams that isn't Sand due to HDB negating Rocks damage to maintain Multiscale. It's also nice that it's a set up mon that doesn't care about Rillabooms Grassy Glide. While it has a good matchup against offense due to its priority, typing, and ability it does need partners to break down fatter stuff that can slow down Dragonite such as Defensive Ferro, Hippowdon, and the usual Defog birds. I use Jolly because it's a bit slow with Adamant only hitting 388 at +1 and I don't like being in a situation where things like Tapu Koko, non scarfed Spectrier and Dragapult can pick me off if I'm weakened. Nidoking makes a good partner, Specs Aegi (use Steel Beam it's really strong), and Specs Magearna make good partners for it.
Obviously not new but this set will pretty much 6-0 any fat sand balance not running Buzzwole, since they all follow the same formulas. Power Herb Fly set over Edge lures in Buzzwole if you have a partner that wants Buzzwole out ie Click Buttons aka Urshifu. It's not a fantastic set in the metagame but it hits hard and certain archetypes fold under it.
The month is not even over yet in a lot of places and normally it takes some hours to get it done. Be patient and you will see the stats soon! Let me know if you have any questions, but for future reference, post questions like this here, too.
I run Mono Attacking Phero, in my case Bug Buzz + Taunt. Block/Mean Look and Taunt is what makes the combination so deadly. I am still in search of the best Taunt Block Mon, but as described Tapu Fini comes close.
Oof, I wanted to talk about hydreigon but it seems I was beaten to the punch. Nevertheless I would like to add some more strengths that it has. It is also a great answer to the futureport strategy, due to outspeeding urshifu by one point, being able to OHKO both urshifu and slowbro between dark pulse and draco, and being immune to future sight. It can also take a choice locked wicked blow relatively comfortably, even when uninvested in defence. It also doesn't fear anything from spectrier, bar taking 2 hexes while already statused while coming in, which is a bit harder to do since toxic spikes don't hit it. This alone covers 2/3 most complained about things on this thread (you still lose to phero, but such is life). Hydreigon also has the reverse of 4mss, since most sets have one or 2 spots left for whatever you want (in my opinion the only things that are pretty much mandatory are dark pulse and roost), which means it can go for whatever move it wants in the last spot, be it defog, more coverage, status, or even something like roar.
I have to agree, I am surprised how good Hydreigon is again. I have tried a Defog Set (Dark Pulse Epower) and a Three Attack Roost set (Dark Pulse Epower Draco Meteor) and it is surprisingly resilent and useful. I just hate its weakness to U-turn.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Giga Impact vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Multiscale Dragonite: 220-259 (56.9 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Basically, it can't die and status or directly defeat most attackers.
Useful and strong. EV needs optimization as Dragonite isn't slow at all and can outspeed slower breaker well. (Right now it outspeeds Lando-T with no speed investment for example)
This is one I don't get. What was found to make it rise so much?
On other tier list notes, quite surprised to see Blaze drop to UU. I don't know if that was Zygarde's influence or its just overhyped. Spectier not being in top 6 was very shocking indeed, especially with all the talk on here about it.
Its a complete halt to QD Pheromosa, hard stop to Clefable, absorbs tspikes from Pex, handles Pex, Fini, among other things it’s able to pivot on with AV.
It's the counter syndrome. So many teams are forced to run hard counters to it that if you're using non-sub disable sets you'll often find yourself stuffed at every opportunity.
That aside Gslowking is heat and it being OU is surprising but welcome. Maybe we'll have someone (with experience) post about it. DLC2 has been full of heat OU rises with Nidoking last month so honestly I'm scared what Shedninja-esque abomination will rise next month.
That aside Gslowking is heat and it being OU is surprising but welcome. Maybe we'll have someone (with experience) post about it. DLC2 has been full of heat OU rises with Nidoking last month so honestly I'm scared what Shedninja-esque abomination will rise next month.
I've been using the boi a lot so here's a short summary I wrote for a friend, AM also explained it well
its fat as hell with AV + regenerator and has an amazing defensive typing compared to the special threats it needs to check. resists fairies, neutral or resists all of magearna or lele's moves for example.
only really weak to ghost types out of the relevant special attackers, and mandibuzz, blissey, or ttar is already on every team to deal with spectrier
A bit more memey but it's one of the best stops to magma storm trapper heatran that stall can run if you run EQ as a moveslot
Since Finchinator posted a set with Giga Impact on Kartana I'm going to use it as an excuse to bring up Hyper Beam Hydreigon. Yes Hyper Beam the move we all used to spam in our noob days. With a +2 Hyper Beam all the Fairies are blown back. 252 HP Tapu Fini may need some Stealth Rock chip but that gets destroyed too. This atleast makes it so that you don't get hardwalled by Fini and friends and you can atleast trade with them to open up way for another teammate to go in. Very niche move but may be an attractive option for some of you.
I also want to talk about another Hydreigon set that catches people off guard and that is Salac Berry + Belch. This is the closest you will get to Naganadel. When Belch is activated it is a 120 BP move so it's basically STAB Sludge Bomb. While Steels wall you you can still do a Draco Meteor hit and and run at first to weaken them and then go for a sweep later in the end game.
Alternatively If you do not want to be resisted by Steels you can run Fire Blast over Substitute and run Sitrus Berry over Salac Berry but you have to take some hits before Belch can be used and you also get no speed boost option. Focus Blast can be used over Fire Blast to hit Heatran and Tyranitar and 2HKO Blissey at +2.
If you don't wanna rely on taking damage to activate Sitrus Berry and Belch you can also run Lum Berry to switch into status which may be more reliable in activating Belch.
This is one I don't get. What was found to make it rise so much?
On other tier list notes, quite surprised to see Blaze drop to UU. I don't know if that was Zygarde's influence or its just overhyped. Spectier not being in top 6 was very shocking indeed, especially with all the talk on here about it.
It's probably new toy syndrome tbh,Just like regieleki and galarian zapdos I expect this thing to fall off very quickly I just don't see galarian slowking as a good pokemon in OU especially when slowbro is right there
It's probably new toy syndrome tbh,Just like regieleki and galarian zapdos I expect this thing to fall off very quickly I just don't see galarian slowking as a good pokemon in OU especially when slowbro is right there
its fat as hell with AV + regenerator and has an amazing defensive typing compared to the special threats it needs to check. resists fairies, neutral or resists all of magearna or lele's moves for example.
only really weak to ghost types out of the relevant special attackers, and mandibuzz, blissey, or ttar is already on every team to deal with spectrier
It definitely has a usable, unique niche with Future Sight + the specific threats it handles. I wouldn't ride it off so quickly. The fact that it's all over Youtube doesn't hurt it either.
Galarian Slowking's rise is definitely more than just new toy syndrome. If new toy syndrome were a thing affecting it, then it would not have dropped to RU in the first place and would've been more likely to have dropped now as new toy syndrome wore off. Galarian Slowking's Assault Vest set is quite potent as a balance breaker; it puts a dent into cores like Clefable + Toxapex + Mandibuzz really well, and it is one of the best checks to Quiver Dance Pheromosa as well as some other miscellaneous threats like Tapu Lele, Latios, and Tapu Fini.
About time, I said after the Zygarde and Kyurem-B bans that G-Slowking's niche would grow. I've said this elsewhere before, but there are a couple of important advantages that G-Slowking has due to its typing that make it a solid pick over its Kanto counterpart(s) on the right teams.
While Poison/Psychic has a bad weakness to Ground and G-Slowking loses out on the really nice resistances that a Water type provides, in exchange, G-Slowking also loses important weaknesses to Electric, Bug, and Grass and gains a nice resistance to Fairy (and Poison, plus a 4x resist to Fighting).
Not taking super-effective damage from the two common pivot moves in the form of Volt Switch and U-Turn is really valuable, since while the Kanto Slowtwins are bulky, being forced to Slack Off or Teleport out immediately after switching in doesn't feel great. In addition, an immunity to Toxic is really nice since that is one of the best way to wear down the Kanto Slowtwins now that HDB is a very common item on them. Yes, G-Slowking will take Rocks and Spikes damage if it's running an AV, but it still has Regenerator and hazard removal has never been easier.
The 10 point boost to G-Slowking's Special Attack stat (110 vs the 100 of the Kanto Slowtwins) is also a not-insignificant power boost: it's a 10% increase which is the equivalent of a "free" +SpA boosting nature. And G-Slowking has a crazy wide movepool (WHY NO CLEAR SMOG OR TELEPORT GAMEFREAK) with which to leverage that offensive power. Having STAB Sludge Bomb/Wave to nail Fairy (and Grass) types is great to stop G-Slowking from being set-up fodder for Tapu Fini and Clefable like the Kanto Slowtwins.
I haven’t seen anyone echo my perspective on the metagame as of yet, so I thought I’d throw my two cents in.
Spectrier
Spectrier does not appear to be limiting at first glance, with its premier checks being Mandibuzz, Tyranitar and Blissey. If you’re willing to dip into lower tiers, you can get away with Hydreigon, Incineroar, Obstagoon or Zarude or Scrafty the counter, which all check Spectrier nicely. OU does have other situational checks like SpDef Unaware Clefable, Urshifu-SS and AV Magearna/Melmetal that can come in once or twice to check certain sets, plus some options to revenge kill it (Triple Axel Pheromosa, Jolly/Scarf Dragapult, etc).
There are three problems with Spectrier notwithstanding everything I just said. First, its ability, power and speed tier mandate the use of a sturdy Ghost resist in a way other ghost types do not. While running a Ghost resist was always a noteworthy part of your teambuilding checklist even in prior metagames, Gengar, Aegislash and even Dragapult simply do not snowball out of control the way that Spectrier can (and often does) if you do not run dedicated defensive answers to them. This is the case even if Gengar/Dragapult ran the exact same HexWisp sets that Spectrier often runs. It isn’t any single trait that pushes Spectrier over the edge, but arguably the totality of what it offers that does so.
Second, most of these checks are flawed in some way. They are either forced to check other prominent threats and get worn down easily (Mandibuzz, Tyranitar), are somewhat passive and create free turns for the opponent (Rest Tyranitar), or are taken advantage of by Spectrier itself (Blissey). You could argue that the pokemon best equipped to handle Spectrier are actually the lower-tier mons I noted earlier, and while I am all for experimentation and breaking away from conventional habits, these pokemon do not see consistent usage in OU for a reason and forcing them onto teams to check Spectrier is problematic itself.
Urshifu
The third issue I have with Spectrier is actually the same issue I have with Urshifu, and it lays the foundation for why I don’t think Pheromosa could be viewed as problematic in the future. Put simply, while each pokemon has viable checks in the metagame, they each require those checks to be tailored in a way that makes them worse against the other, and vice versa. When you say you need a “Dark” resist in this metagame, you are almost always referring to an Urshifu resist, which consist of Buzzwole, Mandibuzz+Toxapex, or Physically Defensive Clefable. Every other Spectier answer loses to Urshifu, and every Urshifu answer bar Mandibuzz loses to Spectrier. Even Mandibuzz can ultimately be overwhelmed with burn chip damage to a point that it doesn’t check Urshifu as well, and if you don’t run Mandibuzz then you have resigned yourself to dedicating 2+ slots on your team just for these two pokemon. Both of these two pokemon have less than a half-dozen checks which must be tailor made to check them specifically, in a way that few other pokemon in the tier (if any) equally require.
Pheromosa
For at least these reasons, I feel we are playing the Spectrier/Urshifu metagame more than the Pheromosa metagame, which has serious implications when it comes to Pheromosa’s impact on the tier. Pheromosa is undoubtedly a great pokemon and it can viably run several different sets, but the issue is that most of the checks you need to cover Pheromosa are made worse by the presence of Spectrier and Urshifu. SpDef Clefable checks QD Pheromosa nicely and soft-checks Spectrier, but loses to Urshifu. Buzzwole checks physical Pheromosa and Urshifu, but loses to Spectrier. Toxapex checks any two of these depending on whether it’s physical or special, but can never check all 3 well at all. The other checks to QD Pheromosa such as Aegislash, G-Slowking, even Victini or AV Magearna are just not as viable at the moment due to being poor options against Spectrier and Urshifu. Without even one of Spectrier or Urshifu, you could probably get away with running a core like Buzzwole+Toxapex, or Mandibuzz+SpDef Clefable, and so on, without getting inevitably and consistently overwhelmed by having to check all three.
This does beg the question as to why we shouldn’t just remove Pheromosa to solve this problem instead of either Spectrier or Urshifu. I strongly disagree with that course of action. First, getting rid of Pheromosa does not actually solve the problem I noted earlier about needing at least 2+ slots for Urshifu and Spectrier – one could even argue it makes it worse. Where I think the metagame still has room to adapt to Pheromosa, I think we have come as far as we can regarding defensive counterplay for Spectrier and Urshifu. Urshifu has had months to develop and we have the answers we have for it, and unless we see an influx of Incineror or something else from lower tiers, I feel we have come as far as we can to handle Spectrier. In the alternative, I think Pheromosa's checks only stand to get better if one of Spectrier/Urshifu are removed.
Second, I think it’s worth looking into what each of these mons adds to the tier. Spectrier really doesn’t add anything more than it takes – there are other ghost types that can take its place, and it tends to function as a self-sufficient breaker for itself anyway. Urshifu probably adds as much as it takes from the tier, but at least it is a nice progress-forcing breaker that I don’t think is independently broken itself. Pheromosa I feel adds a lot to the tier, and I think at this point in the metagame it would be a big mistake to get rid of it. It supports frail/slower breakers with U-turn support to get into play, removes hazards, and helps revenge kill or offensively pressure things like Cinderace, Magearna, +1 Spe Blaziken, Tornadus-T and even opposing Modest Pheromosa with its speed tier. It is precisely this role compression that I find overwhelmingly healthy for the tier (in a way that I don’t feel is necessarily broken), and without its presence I feel the tier will struggle a ton to defensively handle these aforementioned breakers in the long-haul. If you already want some or all of these pokemon to get banned as is, then this probably won’t resonate with you, but I personally do not want to see 5-7 more bans if they could have been avoided by a potentially more optimal order of operations.
Public opinion probably isn’t on my side with this one, but that’s cool, it’s just my opinion as of right now. I enjoy the current metagame, but if there must be imminent tiering action then I would personally suggest Spectrier > Urshifu > Pheromosa, or at least Spectrier first, for all the aforementioned reasons about increased breathing room in teambuilding.
#11 (17.189%) > #3 (22.63%)
Over the last month, Pheromosa has only grown more popular, in part to players picking up on the new Quiver Dance set. Choice Band Pheromosa was already a huge threat, especially when paired with Future Sight, but the Quiver Dance set of Quiver Dance + Focus Blast + Ice Beam + Shock Wave has proven to be a terrifying sweeper in the current metagame. Shock Wave allows Pheromosa to deal solid damage against Water-types like Toxapex, Slowbro and Tapu Fini, as well as Flying-types like Moltres, who would otherwise handle Pheromosa's Choice Band set. Beast Boost plays a decent role in both sets, as it makes Pheromosa much more difficult to revenge kill as it will most likely receive a Speed boost. It also resists the most common priority moves in Sucker Punch and Grassy Glide (Adamant Rillaboom's roll is 90-106%), which means that it's not always possible to revenge kill it with priority if Pheromosa is near full health.
#12 (16.571%) > #5 (21.86%)
Ferrothorn is doing what it usually does, with checking or blanket checking a ton of mons in the tier while being the best Spike user in the tier. Ferrothorn with Power Whip is a reliable counter for Calm Mind Tapu Fini, and it's also a decent answer to Magearna and Melmetal. Knock Off allows it to remove Heavy-Duty Boots from common Defoggers like Zapdos, Moltres and Mandibuzz, which is honestly pretty big considering how reliant those mons are on boots in order to consistently check offensive threats like Rillaboom. Spikes in general are better in the current metagame due to there being more mons prone to them, such as Magearna, Melmetal, and Heatran.
Other notable increases in usage:
#21 (9.415%) > #14 (13.636%)
Rillaboom is starting to pick up usage again, and it's still using the same Choice Band set as before. Knock Off + Grassy Glide is pretty solid, with Knock Off being useful at removing Heavy-Duty Boots from Mandibuzz, and Grassy Glide being helpful at revenge killing faster threats like Spectrier and Pheromosa after rocks. Grassy Glide in particular looks very reliable at this point in time, as there are several offensive mons in the tier with Speed boosting options. This includes Pheromosa with Quiver Dance or a Speed boost from Beast Boost, Scale Shot Garchomp, and weather mons like Baraskewda and Excadrill.
#24 (8.464%) > #15 (12.767%)
With Zygarde out of the picture, Garchomp has returned to being one of the best mons in the tier. Offensive Swords Dance and Mixed sets are what have brought it back to life, with the former using Swords Dance + Earthquake + Stone Edge/Fire Blast + Scale Shot, and the latter using Stealth Rock + Earthquake + Fire Blast + Draco Meteor. Both sets excel at breaking, and Garchomp's speed tier is actually really good as there aren't too many mons that can outspeed and immediately KO it outside of Pheromosa and Dragapult. Stone Edge is useful to immediately KO Mandibuzz and remove Moltres and Zapdos without fear of being status'd. Scale Shot is a really nice option that allows Garchomp to become difficult to revenge kill thanks to obtaining a Speed boost. Fire Blast is a reliable option to take out Ferrothorn and Melmetal more quickly, while also being able to lure and deal significant damage to Buzzwole. Draco Meteor is great at dealing good damage to physically defensive pivots like Lando-T that try to switch into Garchomp.
#30 (7.403%) > #17 (11.367%)
Moltres is an solid defensive pivot that's especially common for Sand teams. It's able to check physical attackers like Melmetal and Pheromosa, and threaten them as well as U-turn users like Cinderace with Flame Body. It still uses the same set of Roost + Defog + Scorching Sands + Mystical Fire/Flamethrower, and it most likely rose in order to try and combat the increased usage from Pheromosa's Choice Band set and Cinderace in general.
#40 (4.615%) >#20 (9.390%)
Nidoking has taken the metagame by storm and has turned into a solid pick for OU. With Sludge Wave + Earth Power + Flamethrower, it's able to threaten pretty much everything but Blissey. The final slot isn't set in stone, but the most common moves are Ice Beam, Taunt, and Substitute. Ice Beam deals additional damage to Mandibuzz and can 1HKO Landorus-T and Garchomp. Substitute can potentially force the opponent into having to sack an offensive mon in order to break the substitute before sending out a second mon to deal with Nidoking. Finally, Taunt is useful at preventing Blissey and other defensive mons from healing or using utility moves like Teleport. Nidoking is able to threaten and KO everything in the tier and it looks to remain a strong presence in the tier.
Notable decreases in usage:
#16 (11.234%) > #26 (7.892%)
With Kyurem-Black and Zygarde being banned from OU, Buzzwole is starting to lose its niche in OU, as it was one of the best answers to both of those mons. It still has some decent utility, as it's the best counter to Urshifu-S, and can potentially handle rising threats like Rillaboom and SD Garchomp lacking Fire Blast.
#20 (10.284%) > #37 (5.097%)
Regieleki managed to hold on and avoid the cutoff from falling out of OU. More and more teams are getting used to it, with Lando, Garchomp, Hippowdon seeing more usage this month. There's also a lot of priority users in the current metagame, most notably with Sucker Punch from Urshifu-S and Cinderace, as well as Rillaboom, who saw a decent increase in usage this month.
Rising to OU:
#57 (2.155%) > #34 (5.482%)
Hydreigon is back, but this time with a defensive Defog set. Hydreigon is running something similar to what it ran in SM OU, with a set of Defog, Roost and 2 attacks. Hydreigon is able to provide a defensive answer to Heatran and Spectrier (while providing hazard removal, and is fast enough to threaten a lot of offensive mons in the tier like Nidoking. Being a Spectrier answer is honestly worth emphasizing again, as not too many exist at this point in time, and Hydreigon being able to do additional things (Defog and checking Heatran) while handling Spectrier makes it a nice option to use in OU.
#41 (4.317%) > #35 (5.239%)
Tapu Lele started off slow, but it has finally returned to OU. The reason for returning is that Tapu Lele isn't fully checked by teams that try and get away by running an offensive Melmetal or Magearna as their only Steel-type. Both of them, Melmetal in particular, can take at least 30% or more from Choice Specs Tapu Lele's Psychic, and this can cause teams to get overwhelmed by Lele fairly quickly. Tapu Lele has 3 main sets, which are Choice Specs, Choice Scarf, and then a set with Heavy-Duty Boots. The first 2 sets are identical, with each one using Psychic + Moonblast + Focus Blast + Psyshock/Thunderbolt, and the last one is a bit different and utilizes Nature's Madness, Taunt, or Calm Mind in the final slot. Moon Blast allows Tapu Lele to hit Dark-types like Urshifu and Mandibuzz, while Focus Blast hits Steel-types and Thunderbolt hits Corviknight and can potentially 1HKO Slowbro. Nature's Madness allows Lele to immediately hit the likely Steel-type switch in for 50%, which most likely leaves it in range of being KO'd by 2 Psychics from Tapu Lele. Heavy-Duty Boots are nice to keep Tapu Lele healthy and to increase the number of times it can switch in while hazards are up.
#42 (3.373%) > #36 (5.102%)
Hippowdon most likely rose in order to act as a defensive wall that could provide an Electric-type immunity, Stealth Rock, and act as a solid switchin to Cinderace, who has been growing in usage as well. The set of Stealth Rock + Earthquake + Toxic + Slack Off can be annoying to some teams, as the only mons safe from this set are Clefable, Ferrothorn, Tapu Fini, Kartana and Corviknight. It helps that Corviknight, Hippo's best answer, is still a bit low in usage.
#80 (1.361%) > #38 (4.644%)
This one is probably the biggest surprise, but Slowking-Galar is actually kinda good in OU. It has solid coverage and power that can quickly annoy and threaten balance teams, while simultaneously providing solid defensive utility. It runs an Assault Vest set with Sludge Bomb + Flamethrower Scald/Hydro Pump + Future Sight/Psychic. This coverage allows it to threaten pretty much everything outside of Blissey, as Clefable and Toxapex are take care of with Sludge Bomb and Psychic respectively, while Steel-types like Ferrothorn hate Flamethrower. Scald and Hydro Pump threaten Ground-types like Landorus, and there's also the fact that Sludge Bomb and Scald's 30% status rates make them tough to switch into safely. Regenerator with Assault Vest allows Slowking to act as a defensive answer to Quiver Dance Pheromosa, Latios, and Calm Mind Tapu Fini. Overall I'd say this is a a pretty cool addition to the tier and it'll be interesting to see how it does in the future.
Fall from OU:
#38 (5.149%) > #41 (4.419%)
#32 (7.132%) >#42 (4.294%)
These 2 were close to dropping out last month and it seems this month they finally did. Both were hyped at first, but their actual performance in OU wasn't up to par, and this eventually caused them to fall from OU. Both of these physical attackers struggle in the current metagame, in which most of the physically defensive walls (Slowbro, Moltres, Zapdos, Lando-T), give them too much trouble for them to be used over other physical attackers like Pheromosa, Urshifu-S, and Cinderace.
Same questions as usual:
1. What surprised you the most from these stats?
2. Among the mons with increased usage, which ones do you believe will continue to see an increase in usage?
3. Among the mons with decreased usage, which ones do you believe will continue to see a decrease in usage?
4. What mons do you think are underrated and may see higher usage in the future?
5. What mons do you think are overrated and may see less usage in the future?
6. How do you feel about the most common offensive mons in the tier, and how do they impact the tier?
7. How do you feel about the most common defensive mons in the tier, and what are some common defensive cores you see?
8. How do you feel about team building? Does it feel like there are too many things to cover, or are there certain mons that restrict building?
9. What are your favorite mons to use in OU right now?
10. I hope you all have a wonderful rest of the day :)
Well here we go
1. Spectrier looks like it is dropping off now. Makaes sense though since every team has like 3 checks and counter each.
2. Nidoking most likely. I don't think I have to explain how good sheer force /w life orb is. I personally also use a scarf set, which is very good, and allows it to beat the things that would normally outspeed and OHKO it.
3. Spectrier is going to continue to drop. It was obvious since the start, that too many counters meant decrease in usage. Maybe there might be some other weird tech set that pops up, but I doubt it.
4. Specs Kuyrem most underrated mon change my mind.
5. Tapu Koko. It's an alright pokemon, but it struggles against a lot. Especially since we were all clickbaited that it was getting play rough. Think it's gonna drop.
6. Spectrier is over centralizing along with urshifu. Most of the other offensive pokemon don't have that big of an effect as these two do. Phermosa sucks ban when. Im excited to see new hydriegon tech to adapt to the meta. I've already seen some pretty cool sets running belch and stuff.
7. Personally none of the defensive pokemon are that hard to beat. They are annoying, but it's nothing that bad. Toxapex sucks, but it's not banworthy or anything. Just slap on a latios and your problems are solved.
8. Teambuilding isn't that bad. But it just doesn't give enough freedom right now. Its mandatory to have 1 thing to beat spectrier, pheromosa and urshifu. You also need to make sure you aren't walled by blissey or toxapex. In general you lose 2-3 slots at minimum trying to counter these things. It was much more free back during DLC1 and pre-DLC1. Overall its a lot more strict. Especially since spectrier and phermosa can run multiple sets.
9. I love using Alolan Ninetails. Having hail is great for changing weather against rain teams, and freeze dry is such a great move to spam. Veil is also pretty goated. Victini is also fun to play with because of it's spalshability.
10. You 2 :)
Okay, so I noticed Ferrothorn's growth, and thought that was pretty cool, as Ferrothorn is a tank. But imo, he's being misused as a setter. My personal set for him is
Ferrothorn @ Occa Berry
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 248 HP / 130 Def / 130 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Curse
- Gyro Ball
If you can take out the fire type on the opponents team, you can totally sweep, as ferrothorn can take basically anything else with ease. I've never been a fan of hazards, as all it takes is a good rapid spin, court change, taunt, or block/encore, and the entire thing falls apart. Especially in an OU where everyone chooses the fastest character, a tank like ferrothorn can rip right through. (It also goes well with trick room, if that's your cup of tea)
1. Eleki remaining in OU. Unlike something like spectrier, it is just kinda incapable of wearing down things immune to it. Feels like a non-threat honestly.
2. I think Tapu Lele will keep rising. It’s still just super strong and hard to check.
3. Eleki for the reasons mentioned above.
4. Kartana is very underrated according to usage, but people are catching onto how strong SD sets still are.
5. Not sure, maybe swampert? It’s definitely good, but I wonder if it’ll really stay this high. I think partially it’s just fun to use it right now, which is a good thing of course.
6. I’m honestly fine with pheromosa/urshifu and I think they make the tier much more fun by existing in it. I’m sure that’s an unpopular opinion lol, but I like having things that feel slightly too strong.
7. Kinda feels like the tier would fall apart without toxapex’s defensive utility. I don’t think that’s really a bad thing though personally. I just can’t imagine teambuilding without it as an option right now, sounds very difficult lol.
8. Teambuilding is absolute hell right now and that’s my biggest gripe with OU. Spectrier forces you to run subpar mons if you want to have a team strong against it - some of these subpar mons even requiring extra support to properly beat spectrier. Not-so-great sets like shadow ball blissey and defensive hydreigon being somewhat common just makes this incredibly clear. I honestly just can’t wait for spectrier to go away lol so I can properly enjoy teambuilding again.
9. My favorite mons to use are pheromosa, zapdos, and toxapex right now. They just do so much for a team, it’s hard for me to build something without at least two of them.
Before giving off my answers to the above usual questions, I want to bring attention to specific mons.
Lando-T being #1 with 28.37% usage is probably the most surprising thing on the surface, especially since no one has been talking about this mon being a top tier threat. Heck, it even got a mere A tier in the recent official VR.
However, it is so dang versatile on what it can do. With Intimidate, the lack of HP Ice, and it's great typing, the mon switches in and applies rocks very easily. The scarf sets are also pretty good in the metagame, and there are a few sub-toxic sets being used, although more niche in comparison to the defensive and scarf sets.
In other words, aside from losing Z-moves, which does hurt in the grand scheme of things (which is why it will likely never reach the peak of usage gen 7 Lando-T had), it does pretty much the same things it did in gen 7, with no HP Ice to worry about, and Intimidate spreading being more important considering all the powerful physical attackers in the tier.
Considering that this mon is currently in the conversation of being potentially banworthy (which it still may be), seeing it merely be #10 with only a 15.92% usage rate is bit disappointing. It is a drop from the 18.09% usage it was in the first-half of the month. It is still an amazing mon, with the ability hit all non-Ghost resists hard, and pass wisps to all of its checks.
However, a reason to why I think it's usage dropped, is likely due to more teams running Spectrier checks to deal with it. It may be suspected later for being potentially too overcentralizing to the meta, but I don't quite feel that way right now.
Speaking of mons with disappointing usage for being such controversial mons in the thread (and highly ranked in the VR), the Kanto Slowtwins are quite a big talking point thanks to the powerful combination of Future Sight + Teleport + Regenerator. It is combined even further when using powerful breakers like Urshifu, who has risen in usage this time around.
However Slowbro, while it is higher than its #28 usage in the previous usage rankings, is still not even top 20 in usage, being ranked just outside of it at #21. Slowking didn't even make the cutoff, being #47 at 2.812% usage (still stuck at RU), while it's Galarian counterpart did make the cutoff, more on that later.
I personally think the threat of FuturePort, while great, is being a bit overblown by this thread. I think Gingy earlier in the thread kinda covered it already, but none of the top breakers in the meta has been pushed over the edge thanks to FuturePort, and be consistent enough to be considered banworthy. They may have been pushed over the edge, but FuturePort is far from the reason why that is. FuturePort is simply of good component of offense that has a bunch of already established strategies.
Slowbro is a very great mon, and I could see this mon eventually reach top 20 in usage, but I think it is being a bit overblown.
Slowking is also a solid mon, and deserves a place in the OU meta despite not being OU, but I think that its place in the meta is being overblown as well, especially since bulky water competition in Slowbro, Tapu Fini, and Swampert is very strong right now.
Speaking of Galarian counterpart, the black sheep of the rankings this time around is this mon. Nidoking and Barraskewda was in the previous rankings, before being established as true powerful threats in the OU meta (especially the former), but Glowking barely crept in the OU usage rankings, even over its Kantonian counterpart which a lot of people put in much higher praise.
However, when you look on what it does, then things become crystal clear. To put it simply as said by Jordy:
Galarian Slowking's Assault Vest set is quite potent as a balance breaker; it puts a dent into cores like Clefable + Toxapex + Mandibuzz really well, and it is one of the best checks to Quiver Dance Pheromosa as well as some other miscellaneous threats like Tapu Lele, Latios, and Tapu Fini.
In comparison to Slowking, Glowking trades 10 less points in attack (which is useless to it) and applies it to special attack. Not only it a very good mon defensively thanks to retaining base 110 special defense + Regenerator + can afford to run AV, but it also puts in some great damage thanks to its base 110 special attack, the best attacking stat of all the Slow-kuza.
In comparison to Slowking, Glowking is not quite as potent defensively and as a support, due to Water/Psychic > Poison/Psychic defensively and the lack of Teleport, Glowking is still very good in these aspects, while being far more potent offensively thanks to it's higher special attack. It's bulk is also helped out that it can afford to run AV, while Slowking needs the support moves in order to function in OU.
Being immune to Toxic + eating up Toxic Spikes is also a very desirable quality to have, especially since it is easier than ever to place Toxic Spikes on front of people's faces.
Overall, while it took a while to get the ball rolling for this mon, although it understandably didn't exist in the Zygarde meta, this mon is very potent in the right teams, and currently does deserve a spot in the OU usage rankings.
As I predicted, Moltres exploded in usage. Defensive Moltres is extremely potent right now, but I have also seen offensive Moltres being run occasionally, with some good success. Nothing else to add... to this mon is here to stay.
I had a feeling this may happen, but this mon's time in OU seems to be almost up. It will always have a nice niche in the tier, with its unmatched speed tier, destructive electric STAB, and being arguably the dual screen setter in the tier. However, it's glaring flaws are also very prevalent as well.
I thought it would do better with Zygarde being gone. However, Landorus-T rose to be the #1 mon in the tier (in terms of usage), and mons like Garchomp, Nidoking, and Hippowdon rose in usage since the ban, while mons like Swampert and Excadrill remain popular. The current climate is simply very unfavorable to Regieleki to exist in.
It may drop to UU next shift, but considering the lower power level, and that Nidoqueen, Krookodile, and Mamoswine are literally the only ground types in the tier, I doubt its stay in UU is going to last very long.
1. What surprised you the most from these stats?
2. Among the mons with increased usage, which ones do you believe will continue to see an increase in usage?
3. Among the mons with decreased usage, which ones do you believe will continue to see a decrease in usage?
4. What mons do you think are underrated and may see higher usage in the future?
5. What mons do you think are overrated and may see less usage in the future?
6. How do you feel about the most common offensive mons in the tier, and how do they impact the tier?
7. How do you feel about the most common defensive mons in the tier, and what are some common defensive cores you see?
8. How do you feel about team building? Does it feel like there are too many things to cover, or are there certain mons that restrict building?
9. What are your favorite mons to use in OU right now?
10. I hope you all have a wonderful rest of the day :)
1. Yeah, I have to say Glowking was the most surprising thing for me too. Spectrier and Heatran dropping in usage was also surprising but maybe that’s just because people were using more of Zygarde and Black Kyurem (before they got banned lol). Finally Fini being #11 really surprises me with it being this close to top 10. It’s a great mon, but I was definitely expecting something else (actually multiple something elses) in front of it, and I thought that it won’t be too close to top 10.
2. Clef. It’s now back to number two and I have no doubt that it is going to make it back to number one. Lando-T does give it competition (hey, it was the king of OU last gen), but Clef brings so much to the table that there is near no opportunity cost in using it. Also Moltres is just an amazing defensive birb.
3. Regieleki cuz duh.
4. Buzzwole lost a bit of its appeal due to Zygarde and Black Kyurem getting the boot, but I think it will come back as a fantastic defensive mon. Also with Zygarde and Black Kyurem getting out Blaziken has more of a chance to shine and although I’m not too sure if it will come back to OU its usage will surely rise. Latios dropped a bit but it is still a phenomenal wallbreaker and has great coverage. Finally Spectrier will go back up again as well as motherf*cking Heatran
5. Lando-T will probably drop one place to second below Clef. Other than that I’m not too sure because nothing seems too overrated that isn’t dropping already.
6. Most of what I have to say about Spectrier, Magearna, and Pheromosa (among others) has already been said so I won’t bother adding on anything about them. Cinderace is still a powerful and versatile threat that is really good at making progress, whether it is “setting” and “removing” hazards with Court Change, gaining momentum with U-Turn, or just firing off attacks. As said, it can easily make progress in just about any matchup that involves Toxapex, and it even has Zen Headbutt to help with that too. With the impact thing, Toxapex is used on a lot of teams partly because Cinderace exists, and Moltres and Zapdos are also rising partly because Static/Flame Body greatly punishes Cinderace and takes advantage of Libero.
7. Toxafreakingpex, Ferrof*ckingthorn, and motherfreaking Heatran are all over the place and are a hassle to fight on the battlefield. I’m not saying that they are broken or anything (though I want Pex gone more than anything), but they generally make battles… less fun. Look at the top 10. We have Clef, Ferro, Heatran, Toxapex, Zapdos, and even Magearna and Lando-T to an extent. Defensive mons are really getting hold of this meta. For cores, well we have BlissBro, ClefPex, and stuff like that. I have also seen a couple of the Bulu+Heatran cores (both defensive, mind you).
8. You need a way to deal with Pheromosa, Spectrier, and a few other big offensive threats, but otherwise… to me, it’s not as much of a hassle as some people say. Spectrier is annoying to prep for but other than that I think that the offensive threats are not way too hard to handle and it frees you up more to deal with common defensive cores and whatever else you need.
9. See: all the posts I made about certain Pokemon, but if I had to pick one, I would pick Volcarona. It’s a great fun sweeper, and the only real complaint I have about it is that it is utterly walled by Heatran and Blissey. After a QD, if the opponent does not have a few select mons it’s game over (unless you are unlucky for an attack to miss, though this only really applies to Fire Blast). There is just something about boosting attack and speed at the same time, so that’s why I’m quite fond of Dragon Dance sweepers. However, Volcarona have the rare Quiver Dance (which also boosts SpD), amazing offensive typing, phenomenal base 135 SpA, and nice coverage. It is just a bit matchup dependent (mostly on whether Blissey and Heatran is on the opposing team), but I love playing with it and it doesn’t disappoint.
Edit: No, go away Pheromosa. I don't need your paper-thin bulk and stupid Focus Misses.
10. You too! And wow, it’s December! 2020 is almost ending! 2021 can’t possibly be any worse!
Okay, so I noticed Ferrothorn's growth, and thought that was pretty cool, as Ferrothorn is a tank. But imo, he's being misused as a setter. My personal set for him is
Ferrothorn @ Occa Berry
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 248 HP / 130 Def / 130 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Curse
- Gyro Ball
If you can take out the fire type on the opponents team, you can totally sweep, as ferrothorn can take basically anything else with ease. I've never been a fan of hazards, as all it takes is a good rapid spin, court change, taunt, or block/encore, and the entire thing falls apart. Especially in an OU where everyone chooses the fastest character, a tank like ferrothorn can rip right through. (It also goes well with trick room, if that's your cup of tea)
Cool set, however is definitely not as good as the defensive variant. This is a potential trick room set, but it just gets outdone by stackatacka. And since everyone and their mothers are running fire moves, I find it hard for this to set up curses. It also has no recovery, so a crit flamethrower easy ends its spree.
I haven’t seen anyone echo my perspective on the metagame as of yet, so I thought I’d throw my two cents in.
Spectrier
Spectrier does not appear to be limiting at first glance, with its premier checks being Mandibuzz, Tyranitar and Blissey. If you’re willing to dip into lower tiers, you can get away with Hydreigon, Incineroar, Obstagoon or Zarude or Scrafty the counter, which all check Spectrier nicely. OU does have other situational checks like SpDef Unaware Clefable, Urshifu-SS and AV Magearna/Melmetal that can come in once or twice to check certain sets, plus some options to revenge kill it (Triple Axel Pheromosa, Jolly/Scarf Dragapult, etc).
There are three problems with Spectrier notwithstanding everything I just said. First, its ability, power and speed tier mandate the use of a sturdy Ghost resist in a way other ghost types do not. While running a Ghost resist was always a noteworthy part of your teambuilding checklist even in prior metagames, Gengar, Aegislash and even Dragapult simply do not snowball out of control the way that Spectrier can (and often does) if you do not run dedicated defensive answers to them. This is the case even if Gengar/Dragapult ran the exact same HexWisp sets that Spectrier often runs. It isn’t any single trait that pushes Spectrier over the edge, but arguably the totality of what it offers that does so.
Second, most of these checks are flawed in some way. They are either forced to check other prominent threats and get worn down easily (Mandibuzz, Tyranitar), are somewhat passive and create free turns for the opponent (Rest Tyranitar), or are taken advantage of by Spectrier itself (Blissey). You could argue that the pokemon best equipped to handle Spectrier are actually the lower-tier mons I noted earlier, and while I am all for experimentation and breaking away from conventional habits, these pokemon do not see consistent usage in OU for a reason and forcing them onto teams to check Spectrier is problematic itself.
Urshifu
The third issue I have with Spectrier is actually the same issue I have with Urshifu, and it lays the foundation for why I don’t think Pheromosa could be viewed as problematic in the future. Put simply, while each pokemon has viable checks in the metagame, they each require those checks to be tailored in a way that makes them worse against the other, and vice versa. When you say you need a “Dark” resist in this metagame, you are almost always referring to an Urshifu resist, which consist of Buzzwole, Mandibuzz+Toxapex, or Physically Defensive Clefable. Every other Spectier answer loses to Urshifu, and every Urshifu answer bar Mandibuzz loses to Spectrier. Even Mandibuzz can ultimately be overwhelmed with burn chip damage to a point that it doesn’t check Urshifu as well, and if you don’t run Mandibuzz then you have resigned yourself to dedicating 2+ slots on your team just for these two pokemon. Both of these two pokemon have less than a half-dozen checks which must be tailor made to check them specifically, in a way that few other pokemon in the tier (if any) equally require.
Pheromosa
For at least these reasons, I feel we are playing the Spectrier/Urshifu metagame more than the Pheromosa metagame, which has serious implications when it comes to Pheromosa’s impact on the tier. Pheromosa is undoubtedly a great pokemon and it can viably run several different sets, but the issue is that most of the checks you need to cover Pheromosa are made worse by the presence of Spectrier and Urshifu. SpDef Clefable checks QD Pheromosa nicely and soft-checks Spectrier, but loses to Urshifu. Buzzwole checks physical Pheromosa and Urshifu, but loses to Spectrier. Toxapex checks any two of these depending on whether it’s physical or special, but can never check all 3 well at all. The other checks to QD Pheromosa such as Aegislash, G-Slowking, even Victini or AV Magearna are just not as viable at the moment due to being poor options against Spectrier and Urshifu. Without even one of Spectrier or Urshifu, you could probably get away with running a core like Buzzwole+Toxapex, or Mandibuzz+SpDef Clefable, and so on, without getting inevitably and consistently overwhelmed by having to check all three.
This does beg the question as to why we shouldn’t just remove Pheromosa to solve this problem instead of either Spectrier or Urshifu. I strongly disagree with that course of action. First, getting rid of Pheromosa does not actually solve the problem I noted earlier about needing at least 2+ slots for Urshifu and Spectrier – one could even argue it makes it worse. Where I think the metagame still has room to adapt to Pheromosa, I think we have come as far as we can regarding defensive counterplay for Spectrier and Urshifu. Urshifu has had months to develop and we have the answers we have for it, and unless we see an influx of Incineror or something else from lower tiers, I feel we have come as far as we can to handle Spectrier. In the alternative, I think Pheromosa's checks only stand to get better if one of Spectrier/Urshifu are removed.
Second, I think it’s worth looking into what each of these mons adds to the tier. Spectrier really doesn’t add anything more than it takes – there are other ghost types that can take its place, and it tends to function as a self-sufficient breaker for itself anyway. Urshifu probably adds as much as it takes from the tier, but at least it is a nice progress-forcing breaker that I don’t think is independently broken itself. Pheromosa I feel adds a lot to the tier, and I think at this point in the metagame it would be a big mistake to get rid of it. It supports frail/slower breakers with U-turn support to get into play, removes hazards, and helps revenge kill or offensively pressure things like Cinderace, Magearna, +1 Spe Blaziken, Tornadus-T and even opposing Modest Pheromosa with its speed tier. It is precisely this role compression that I find overwhelmingly healthy for the tier (in a way that I don’t feel is necessarily broken), and without its presence I feel the tier will struggle a ton to defensively handle these aforementioned breakers in the long-haul. If you already want some or all of these pokemon to get banned as is, then this probably won’t resonate with you, but I personally do not want to see 5-7 more bans if they could have been avoided by a potentially more optimal order of operations.
Public opinion probably isn’t on my side with this one, but that’s cool, it’s just my opinion as of right now. I enjoy the current metagame, but if there must be imminent tiering action then I would personally suggest Spectrier > Urshifu > Pheromosa, or at least Spectrier first, for all the aforementioned reasons about increased breathing room in teambuilding.
I just want to say your post is very well worded and convinced me that spectrier is the most unhealthy mon in the metagame at the moment. It reaches dracovish levels of centralizing where if you don’t have a check you lose. Before people start to say things about spectrier’s lower usage, let me say the dracovish had lower usage when it was still here even though it was broken because the tier had just adapted to it. Spectrier might not be the best or most used mon in OU, but it has an effect on the tier like no other. I also agree that the removal of spectrier, which offers nothing positive to the metagame unlike urshifu which somewhat threatens fatter builds, will allow urshifu and pheromosa to be checked easier and not be as problematic as it may seem.
Also, for anyone who can answer this, when would it be appropriate to have a suspect test for something in OU? I know I told people to chill with the ban talk, but that was 2 days after zygarde was banned. It’s now been 2 weeks, and I think that we’ve had plenty of time to determine what is problematic or not. We’ve tried different methods for curbing spectrier, some of which are useless mons otherwise and others it can even get around. At least with urshifu I could still beat it even if I didn’t have a defensive switch in but with spectrier it really emphasizes the auto lose factor should you be unable to check it. Anyway, hope someone important reads this and hopefully we can get a spectrier suspect in a week or 2 because my goodness I hate that piece of shit. Lastly, I find it funny how we all thought it would be dogshit from its move pool but it’s now another dracovish lmao.
I haven’t seen anyone echo my perspective on the metagame as of yet, so I thought I’d throw my two cents in.
Spectrier
Spectrier does not appear to be limiting at first glance, with its premier checks being Mandibuzz, Tyranitar and Blissey. If you’re willing to dip into lower tiers, you can get away with Hydreigon, Incineroar, Obstagoon or Zarude or Scrafty the counter, which all check Spectrier nicely. OU does have other situational checks like SpDef Unaware Clefable, Urshifu-SS and AV Magearna/Melmetal that can come in once or twice to check certain sets, plus some options to revenge kill it (Triple Axel Pheromosa, Jolly/Scarf Dragapult, etc).
There are three problems with Spectrier notwithstanding everything I just said. First, its ability, power and speed tier mandate the use of a sturdy Ghost resist in a way other ghost types do not. While running a Ghost resist was always a noteworthy part of your teambuilding checklist even in prior metagames, Gengar, Aegislash and even Dragapult simply do not snowball out of control the way that Spectrier can (and often does) if you do not run dedicated defensive answers to them. This is the case even if Gengar/Dragapult ran the exact same HexWisp sets that Spectrier often runs. It isn’t any single trait that pushes Spectrier over the edge, but arguably the totality of what it offers that does so.
Second, most of these checks are flawed in some way. They are either forced to check other prominent threats and get worn down easily (Mandibuzz, Tyranitar), are somewhat passive and create free turns for the opponent (Rest Tyranitar), or are taken advantage of by Spectrier itself (Blissey). You could argue that the pokemon best equipped to handle Spectrier are actually the lower-tier mons I noted earlier, and while I am all for experimentation and breaking away from conventional habits, these pokemon do not see consistent usage in OU for a reason and forcing them onto teams to check Spectrier is problematic itself.
Urshifu
The third issue I have with Spectrier is actually the same issue I have with Urshifu, and it lays the foundation for why I don’t think Pheromosa could be viewed as problematic in the future. Put simply, while each pokemon has viable checks in the metagame, they each require those checks to be tailored in a way that makes them worse against the other, and vice versa. When you say you need a “Dark” resist in this metagame, you are almost always referring to an Urshifu resist, which consist of Buzzwole, Mandibuzz+Toxapex, or Physically Defensive Clefable. Every other Spectier answer loses to Urshifu, and every Urshifu answer bar Mandibuzz loses to Spectrier. Even Mandibuzz can ultimately be overwhelmed with burn chip damage to a point that it doesn’t check Urshifu as well, and if you don’t run Mandibuzz then you have resigned yourself to dedicating 2+ slots on your team just for these two pokemon. Both of these two pokemon have less than a half-dozen checks which must be tailor made to check them specifically, in a way that few other pokemon in the tier (if any) equally require.
Pheromosa
For at least these reasons, I feel we are playing the Spectrier/Urshifu metagame more than the Pheromosa metagame, which has serious implications when it comes to Pheromosa’s impact on the tier. Pheromosa is undoubtedly a great pokemon and it can viably run several different sets, but the issue is that most of the checks you need to cover Pheromosa are made worse by the presence of Spectrier and Urshifu. SpDef Clefable checks QD Pheromosa nicely and soft-checks Spectrier, but loses to Urshifu. Buzzwole checks physical Pheromosa and Urshifu, but loses to Spectrier. Toxapex checks any two of these depending on whether it’s physical or special, but can never check all 3 well at all. The other checks to QD Pheromosa such as Aegislash, G-Slowking, even Victini or AV Magearna are just not as viable at the moment due to being poor options against Spectrier and Urshifu. Without even one of Spectrier or Urshifu, you could probably get away with running a core like Buzzwole+Toxapex, or Mandibuzz+SpDef Clefable, and so on, without getting inevitably and consistently overwhelmed by having to check all three.
This does beg the question as to why we shouldn’t just remove Pheromosa to solve this problem instead of either Spectrier or Urshifu. I strongly disagree with that course of action. First, getting rid of Pheromosa does not actually solve the problem I noted earlier about needing at least 2+ slots for Urshifu and Spectrier – one could even argue it makes it worse. Where I think the metagame still has room to adapt to Pheromosa, I think we have come as far as we can regarding defensive counterplay for Spectrier and Urshifu. Urshifu has had months to develop and we have the answers we have for it, and unless we see an influx of Incineror or something else from lower tiers, I feel we have come as far as we can to handle Spectrier. In the alternative, I think Pheromosa's checks only stand to get better if one of Spectrier/Urshifu are removed.
Second, I think it’s worth looking into what each of these mons adds to the tier. Spectrier really doesn’t add anything more than it takes – there are other ghost types that can take its place, and it tends to function as a self-sufficient breaker for itself anyway. Urshifu probably adds as much as it takes from the tier, but at least it is a nice progress-forcing breaker that I don’t think is independently broken itself. Pheromosa I feel adds a lot to the tier, and I think at this point in the metagame it would be a big mistake to get rid of it. It supports frail/slower breakers with U-turn support to get into play, removes hazards, and helps revenge kill or offensively pressure things like Cinderace, Magearna, +1 Spe Blaziken, Tornadus-T and even opposing Modest Pheromosa with its speed tier. It is precisely this role compression that I find overwhelmingly healthy for the tier (in a way that I don’t feel is necessarily broken), and without its presence I feel the tier will struggle a ton to defensively handle these aforementioned breakers in the long-haul. If you already want some or all of these pokemon to get banned as is, then this probably won’t resonate with you, but I personally do not want to see 5-7 more bans if they could have been avoided by a potentially more optimal order of operations.
Public opinion probably isn’t on my side with this one, but that’s cool, it’s just my opinion as of right now. I enjoy the current metagame, but if there must be imminent tiering action then I would personally suggest Spectrier > Urshifu > Pheromosa, or at least Spectrier first, for all the aforementioned reasons about increased breathing room in teambuilding.
Yeah I'd agree, but I'd say take pheromosa out before urshifu. Everything you said about it being able to beat a lot of threats. Yeah thats the issue. I doubt the tier will struggle against those things, since all of them already have defensive checks. Pheromosa is an offensive preasure on those. Since most of them have defensive counters it's not a big issue if it goes. As for the meta adapting to pheromosa... thats the problem. The meta can't find a counter for all the sets it can run. Its pretty much genesect, but slightly less coverage. I doubt, there is one set, that can counter all pheromosa sets. Really the only thing you can do against pheromosa, is hope that its a set you counter, or spam priority.
