Smogon's generally against suspecting moves, abilities, etc unless there's very clear and undeniable evidence that the move/ability/etc is broken by itself, rather than specific abusers. Otherwise, people could raise arguments that lead people down a rabbit hole of completely asinine policies just to keep a broken pokemon in the tier (what if we ban water moves on Kyogre? and whatnot). For thousand arrows, Zygarde-10% proves that the move doesn't break mons by itself as 10% kinda sucks most of the time, meaning that it's just Zygarde (and Zygarde 100% obv) that are broken, hence why they were banned instead of thousand arrows. As for pyro ball, it's definitely not the reason why Cinderace is broken lol, that'd be libero + the colorful and powerful covereage it has, and even then, Smogon generally doesn't do move or ability bans for the reasons I stated.
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Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
Even Zygarde-10% got suspected in the lower tiers last gen.
Also, I never said it was the reason Cinderace was broken, but its definitely something I haven't heard being brought up much and for me, might be the straw that broke the camel's back
We don't know for sure if it's the straw that broke the camel's back, or if it's Libero, or U-turn, or Gunk Shot, or whatever. That being said, Pyro Ball isn't inherently uncompetitive, and according to the Tiering Policy Framework, that means it isn't gonna be banned.
That's the point, in lower tiers. It isn't broken in OU or even UU, which means a Thousand Arrows ban won't be considered.
Two Zygarde forms did get banned from OU. Zygarde base was also UUBL in XY until it recieved Thousand Arrows in SM
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When something like Thousand Arrows is broken, then Zygarde-10% would on the top of OU. Libero isn't banned because Raboot and Scorbunny aren't broken with it. Something like Arena Trap got banned, because Diglett and Trapinch were still broken with it.
For a move example, Baton Pass is just ridiculous in what it can do and so itself got banned and not the passers or receivers.
Thousand Arrows was a reason why Zygarde got banned, but there were other factors like Typing, Stats and other moves like Glare, Sub, DD and so on.
And Zygarde-Complete is too much for OU due to its bulk and Power Construct got banned not it directly.
Not sure if this has been brought up yet but how does everyone feel about this HP-less Metagame so far?
Red Raven
I COULD BE BANNED!
I'm loving it. It was completely stupid to have your Garchomp lose to an electric type because of that dumb move, or just about any pokemon losing to something that they should be beating all because of that dumb move. It's probably the reason why I enjoy gen eight so much despite the lack of megas
Goodbye & Thanks
Thrown in a fire?
When I was newer to competitive Pokemon, I really didn't like Hidden Power, and I was initially happy that it got removed from Gen 8. However, as I've become more experienced and improved as a player, I've come to appreciate Hidden Power more. I originally didn't like how pretty much any Pokemon could have any type of coverage that it wants, but I now think that HP offered more flexibility and opened up building a little more by allowing offensive Pokemon to not get completely stonewalled by some defensive counters.
I feel like getting hit by a completely random Hidden Power that just so happened to have perfect coverage against your team was more something that happens at lower ladder. I used to be annoyed more when something like Tangrowth would reveal HP Fire and pick off my Ferrothorn, but as I got more experienced, I learned to scout for HPs that I couldn't afford to stay in on/switch into, and I also learned what HP options were typically ran on threatening Pokemon. Getting hit by a surprise HP isn't really any different than getting sniped by random/surprise coverage, except that HP provided more opportunities for that to happen. I also kind of liked the additional level of depth that sometimes came along with trying to determine what type of Hidden Power your opponent was carrying, although usually you could tell pretty clearly.
I've never liked Z-moves in SM because I think that they were too powerful and could allow for a Pokemon to too easily just blow by a check. I understand that the meta has adapted around this and now you can't consider things Kartana checks if they drop to a Breakneck Blitz, but the power difference between Hidden Power (60 base power in ORAS and SM) and Z-moves (Breakneck Blitz is 200 base power coming off of a Giga Impact, for example) to me makes them an entirely different discussion. I'm only bringing up Z-moves here because I think that they contrast nicely with HP to show why I don't think that Hidden Power was really problematic. This might be an odd analogy, but HP felt to me kind of like how many fighting games have universal overheads. If you're unfamiliar with fighting games, the basic idea is that most moves can be blocked "low" (while crouching) but certain moves, called overheads, can only be blocked "high" (while standing). Without an overhead attack, it can be difficult for a character to "open up" (get a hit on a blocking opponent) since they only need to block low (this is an oversimplification because all jumping attacks are overheads and command grabs exist, but the idea is that without a standing overhead attack, all standing attacks could be blocked crouching). To prevent characters without an overhead from being so easily blocked, some fighting games implemented a "universal overhead" to give all characters an overhead attack. I could easily be wrong about this, but I think that Street Fighter III may have invented the universal overhead, and while other games don't ubiquitously have near-identical universal overheads, it's common for all characters to have at least one standing overhead attack (like the generic 6Ms in DBFZ). So while every character has a "universal overhead," certain characters have unique overheads which are usually better (faster, more damage, more range, etc.) than the universal ones. To me, this feels like how pretty much anything could run HP Ice/Fire/Ground to prevent from being completely walled by certain Pokemon, but those are much weaker and watered-down versions of Ice Beam/Flamethrower/Earth Power. So essentially all relevant Pokemon can learn Hidden Power, the same way that essentially every fighting game character has a universal overhead, but only certain Pokemon get better coverage moves, like how only certain fighting game characters have better, unique overheads.
To conclude this, I feel like the removal of Hidden Power makes SS easier to play, since you know that certain Pokemon are going to be safe switches more often and you don't need to scout as much, but that isn't inherently a bad thing. However, the lack of Hidden Power makes it more difficult to punish switches or break through defensive cores, which can already be extremely difficult to accomplish in SS due to Heavy Duty Boots, Regenerator, and Teleport, but I won't go on about those three things again. I don't think that Hidden Power really warped and distorted what it meant for a Pokemon to be a "check" the way that Z-moves can, but that's more just my personal dislike for Z-moves and isn't very relevant. I also feel like the removal of Hidden Power does constrict teambuilding a little. However, with all of that said, I do understand why people dislike Hidden Power, since again, I used to greatly feel the same way, and I think that the removal of HP did have some merit. The moves that I really wish weren't removed the most are Pursuit (I would guess that they didn't like trapping but both Arena Trap and Magnet Pull came back), Refresh (no idea why this was cut), and Heart Swap (although this won't be relevant in OU anyway if Magearna gets banned), and I'm sure that I'm forgetting other valuable moves as well.
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I too strongly dislike Z-moves (in singles) for the reason you state, and still believe that Gen 7 OU (AND GEN 8) would have been much better if Z-moves were banned and then the tier was balanced accordingly. And I like the removal of Hidden Power for the reasons you talked about, but your post has definitely made me appreciate what the move brought to the table. Kudos.
Also, anyone have some interesting, less-used defensive mons they've found to have a niche in this metagame? Wanna try to build around some.
There was an amazing set in heat using Seadra to spread status and be a legit Cinderace check that I've really enjoyed using
Also, Trubbish holds a good niche as having spikes, t spikes, clear smog to stop boosters, and sticky hold
[eviolite ; analytic / download] --- recover ; teleport ; bolt-beam ; toxic ; trick-roomas physicaly defensive wall garchomp, exca, and even dragapult-specs, glowking and check nidoking ; revenge kill on zolt if download (bolt beak = 40 to 48% + sand damage) .....
as specially defensive wall specs-pult glowking nidoking and check specs kyurem, specs-magearna ; .....
But is weak to knock-off ; trick ; and fighting-type moves mostly break it.
from Omari-P in heat thread is pretty cool
Reuniclus @ Assault VestAbility: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Careful Nature
- Infestation
- Endeavor
- Night Shade
- Knock Off
Funny stuff as vest-trapper Reuniclus.Regenerator help recover HP to spam knock off and night shade,
while low HP + regenerator help take a hit while endeavoring.
I don't remember where I stole this set =3
Tapu Bulu @ Leftovers
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 Spe
Impish Nature
- Horn Leech
- High Horsepower
- Substitute
- Leech Seed
This was before everyone and their mother started spamming Fire Fang Chomp but I already knew that was going to trend awhile back due to Corviknight usage. SD chomp is a pain to deal with outside of very specific countermeasures. I'm probably not going to use other variants of Bulu outside of Band from now on, but you asked.
I would completely disagree with the "seemingly playable metagame state" bit. If you aren't running Heatran, Blissey or Glowking you're probably swept by mag right out of team preview. I would hardly call the current meta "seemingly playable," it's "barely playable" at best. Also, could you please tell us when the survey may be conducted? I recently got back into the game so I'm not sure how long after the suspect the survey is typically sent out.
I’m not about to go into a fully fledged argument about the difference between “seemingly” and “barely” but by playable I mean it’s not ideal, but you can clearly play competitive games and win consistently with a recognizable standard forming. I agree it’s not ideal and I think we may just not have construed the sentiments expressed the same exact way.
Regardless, I’d look for the survey sometime near the end of this week or early next week. And we will likely proceed sometime in the weeks following this depending on the results.
Red Raven
I COULD BE BANNED!
The meta right now is actually quite playable but Magearna is so restrictive. Unless you have Blissey, a protect user, a stat remover and a trick absorber, bunny bot is gonna screw you in one way of the other
I'm actually really salty that ghost horse was chosen to be suspected before bunny bot. Bunny bot literally has the exact same ability as ghost horse. Spectrier can feasibly beat its counters, Magearna straight up picks which pokemon its gonna lose to and it's incredibly frustrating. I can't even use any team except a sand team because that's the only one that reliably beats Magearna
Also, I think that the suspects last too long. I feel like two weeks is just a bit too long before the voting begins. Perhaps cutting the suspects from two weeks two about nine or ten days would be slightly better
I'm actually really salty that ghost horse was chosen to be suspected before bunny bot. Bunny bot literally has the exact same ability as ghost horse. Spectrier can feasibly beat its counters, Magearna straight up picks which pokemon its gonna lose to and it's incredibly frustrating. I can't even use any team except a sand team because that's the only one that reliably beats Magearna
Also, I think that the suspects last too long. I feel like two weeks is just a bit too long before the voting begins. Perhaps cutting the suspects from two weeks two about nine or ten days would be slightly better
Goodbye & Thanks
Thrown in a fire?
I really like the defensive Dragonite set that Storm Zone used the past two weeks of SPL (week 3, week 4). I'm not exactly sure of what spread/spreads they used, but something as simple as this should work:
Dragonite @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Beam
- Roost
- Heal Bell
Heavy-Duty Boots makes Dragonite far more reliable since it keeps Multiscale intact when Rocks are up, and Dragonite has always had respectable natural bulk (91 HP/95 Def/100 SpDef) and a good typing. A physically defensive set is about as consistent of a Cinderace check as you can get (although being poisoned by Gunk Shot can be a pain) and can also check other threatening attackers like Kartana, Rillaboom, Zeraora, Excadrill, Crawdaunt, and offensive Landorus-T (Stone Edge does 46.1 - 54.4% but only 23 - 27.2% if Multiscale is intact, while Ice Beam does 99 - 116.6% to OHKO back 87.5% of the time). However, Dragonite really doesn't like getting Knocked Off and it's prone to be while switching into many of those physical attackers, so I feel like it benefits a lot from solid Defog support from something like Corviknight, Zapdos, or Tornadus-T. I also don't think that Dragonite makes a very good Defogger itself for the same reason - it's too likely to get Knocked and has a hard time removing hazards itself while also keeping Multiscale active. Heal Bell is really nice right now anyway with how common it is for Ground types like Lando or Hippowdon to trade Toxics and how status from Static/Flame Body and things like Thunder Wave Clefable are also commonplace. Heal Bell helps Dragonite itself stay healthier as well, which is nice in case it does get statused by something like Cinderace's Gunk Shot. I feel like Earthquake and Ice Beam are all that Dragonite really needs for coverage to hit hard what it's meant to check, especially coming off of Dragonite's 134 base Attack and 100 base Special Attack stats; this makes Dragonite less passive and more immediately threatening than other defensive Pokemon, even without any attacking investment.
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One mon I've been having fun with is Cryogonal.
Cryogonal @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 28 SpA / 192 SpD / 36 Spe
Calm Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Freeze-Dry
- Knock Off
- Recover
This mon fits very nicely on one of my spikes stacking semi-stall teams. It has the rare rapid spin, which alone is something that should make you want to consider using it. It has a special defense stat comparable to Mantine, which means it's no slouch. Freeze-Dry + Knock Off is enough to annoy lots of common defensive cores like Bro + Galarking and cores with Heatrans or Landorus-T. It can often force uncomfortable switches from defensive teams, as if you don't value its boots and alongside spikes it really only has a few comfortable switch-ins in the tier (Clefable, Corviknight). It's pretty high speed also means it outspeeds things like Heatran, Magearna, and lots of walls like Tyranitar, Swampert, Pelipper, 0 speed Dragonite, Fini, and Mandibuzz. It forms a great core with Slowking-Galar, since with the above spread it handily walls even flamethrower variants of Nidoking, as well as serves as a check to Earth power Specs Kyurem, Specs/HDB Dragapult, and Hydreigon. The given spread makes sure that Cryogonal is never 2HKOed by Nidoking Flamethrower, while outspeeding defensive Landorus-T who look to outspeed Heatran, and the rest is dumped into special attack.
In general, it serves as a useful check to special attacking pokemon that can break through Slowking-Galar, while providing unique rapid spin utility (not to be understated for spikes-stacking teams), and while not letting up offensive pressure. Many common ice resists and specially bulky pokemon like Slowking-Galar, Blissey, Tyranitar, Heatran, Melmetal, Magearna, and Cinderace hate getting knocked, and there is a myriad of other OU pokemon that are weak to Freeze-dry and are forced to switch out. It's a lose-lose: either you get on of your above mons knocked and have their longevity cut severely or you spam recover with a freeze-dry weak mon and are forced to waste pp. It's one drawback is that it lets Corviknight in for free, but not only are many stall teams running Magnezone but this can be taken advantage of by something like a Cinderace or Slowking-Galar on your own team.
https://pokepast.es/991b2c66deff3cfe
Although this team may not be perfect, I think it show Cryogonal's strength very nicely. It has the core of Cryogonal + Slowking-Galar, which is effective, as well as stacking spikes. With its Knock off, it can clear opposing birds out of the way, which can wall Bisharp and Landorus-T. Letting in Corviknight is not as much of a problem either, since if they Defog and you call it, it's a free +2 with Bisharp, which is a KO after Freeze-dry. Bisharp also is a dark type, which can serve as an emergency ghost resist.
Although this team may not be perfect, I think it show Cryogonal's strength very nicely. It has the core of Cryogonal + Slowking-Galar, which is effective, as well as stacking spikes. With its Knock off, it can clear opposing birds out of the way, which can wall Bisharp and Landorus-T. Letting in Corviknight is not as much of a problem either, since if they Defog and you call it, it's a free +2 with Bisharp, which is a KO after Freeze-dry. Bisharp also is a dark type, which can serve as an emergency ghost resist.
Edit: I just had a 100 turn game and I froze their Corviknight AND their Clef and they never thawed out throughout the entire match why is this pokemon so OP.
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Red Raven
I COULD BE BANNED!
Hey guys. I wanna share with you a little new toy that I've been playing with since this morning as I'm posting this an hour past midnight. It's a little something for sand teams
So, I'm sure we can all agree that right before the unholy horse,
got banned, sand was a play style that was safe against it thanks to King 
. His sand instantly reveals what set the horse was using as leftovers would show thanks to sand stream, meaning that the King's ever present disciple, 
can out offense it, or scarf as no leftovers was gonna show, meaning that it won't even be able to touch King Tyranitar. After the unholy horse was banned, King Tyranitar is pretty much expected to drop off in usage and for good reason. It's complete and utter 
bait, the bait for the pokemon that got every single move in the game because it malfunctioned horribly
Since this is for sand teams, let's first put down a list of pokemon that irritates sand teams and by sand teams I mean both sand rush and sand veil 
. The first on this list is obviously 
as it completely walls both drill and chomp. Not far behind is 
which survives the two's +2 life orb earthquakes like nobody's business and of course, the dreaded 
, everybody's go to physical check. 
because its spikes actually hurt Excadrill and is literally hell to switch into and finally, 
because grassy terrain is annoying
Here's the set that I've been toying with that completely destroys the first four, or at the very least, greatly maul them
Sand Stream
252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Lash out
- Fire Punch
- Stone Edge
- Dragon Dance
As you can see, this set completely destroys the above pokemon. Lash out becomes a complete death sentence for Landorus Therian if it dares come in and is only a hair weaker than crunch while also instantly killing Slowbro. Fire punch destroys Corviknight and Ferrothorn while seriously denting Magearna, even straight up killing it if bunny bot doesn't have hp investment while stone edge instantly kills any Zapdos that is hoping to wall Excadrill lacking rock slide
Naturally, this mon isn't gonna handle all sand threats on its own but rather, being a surprise threat. This does have major flaws as for one thing, adamant Tyranitar at +1 speed is literally a hair slower than Garchomp, meaning that the land shark is gonna be in issue and it straight up kills uninvested Godzilla. For another, every choice scarfer in the tier outspeeds it and lastly, stone edge never hits. However, given that this is freaking Tyranitar, it shouldn't be that uncommon to get +2 speed so that could in theory, remedy some of the issues. Regardless of that, this set is not meant to sweep as King Tyranitar has grown limp from being around for seven generations. It's meant to remove the biggest obstacles to clear a path for both Garchomp and Excadrill
As for why I played around with Tyranitar, well I love this mon. It has a very cool design and has a movepool as colorful as Rayquaza's. That was reason enough for me to use it. Other than that, I also wanted to have a pokemon that could both wall break and support Excadrill. Mix Dracozolt is a good set but it wasn't my cup of tea and I hate banded Tyranitar. Yes it hurts but thinking about what move to click hurts my brain more. So, I wanted to see if there was a way to replicate banded's power without thinking that much and it turned out, life orb dragon dance does that very well
For some random tips on this set, always pair it with Hippowdon. Never have this Tyranitar set do the sand setting on its own. You're gonna run out of sand turns of that does happen. Next, boost up against mons that are passive like Blissey or Mandibuzz or even Heatran. Lastly, always have a backup answer to Garchomp and Rillaboom. Those two outspeed this set even after a dance so you need to have an answer to the both of them, especially Rillaboom. Garchomp not so much as if you get two dances then you're gonna outspeed it
So, I'm sure we can all agree that right before the unholy horse,
got banned, sand was a play style that was safe against it thanks to King . His sand instantly reveals what set the horse was using as leftovers would show thanks to sand stream, meaning that the King's ever present disciple, can out offense it, or scarf as no leftovers was gonna show, meaning that it won't even be able to touch King Tyranitar. After the unholy horse was banned, King Tyranitar is pretty much expected to drop off in usage and for good reason. It's complete and utter bait, the bait for the pokemon that got every single move in the game because it malfunctioned horriblySince this is for sand teams, let's first put down a list of pokemon that irritates sand teams and by sand teams I mean both sand rush
and sand veil . The first on this list is obviously as it completely walls both drill and chomp. Not far behind is which survives the two's +2 life orb earthquakes like nobody's business and of course, the dreaded , everybody's go to physical check. because its spikes actually hurt Excadrill and is literally hell to switch into and finally, because grassy terrain is annoyingHere's the set that I've been toying with that completely destroys the first four, or at the very least, greatly maul them
Sand Stream
252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Lash out
- Fire Punch
- Stone Edge
- Dragon Dance
As you can see, this set completely destroys the above pokemon. Lash out becomes a complete death sentence for Landorus Therian if it dares come in and is only a hair weaker than crunch while also instantly killing Slowbro. Fire punch destroys Corviknight and Ferrothorn while seriously denting Magearna, even straight up killing it if bunny bot doesn't have hp investment while stone edge instantly kills any Zapdos that is hoping to wall Excadrill lacking rock slide
Naturally, this mon isn't gonna handle all sand threats on its own but rather, being a surprise threat. This does have major flaws as for one thing, adamant Tyranitar at +1 speed is literally a hair slower than Garchomp, meaning that the land shark is gonna be in issue and it straight up kills uninvested Godzilla. For another, every choice scarfer in the tier outspeeds it and lastly, stone edge never hits. However, given that this is freaking Tyranitar, it shouldn't be that uncommon to get +2 speed so that could in theory, remedy some of the issues. Regardless of that, this set is not meant to sweep as King Tyranitar has grown limp from being around for seven generations. It's meant to remove the biggest obstacles to clear a path for both Garchomp and Excadrill
As for why I played around with Tyranitar, well I love this mon. It has a very cool design and has a movepool as colorful as Rayquaza's. That was reason enough for me to use it. Other than that, I also wanted to have a pokemon that could both wall break and support Excadrill. Mix Dracozolt is a good set but it wasn't my cup of tea and I hate banded Tyranitar. Yes it hurts but thinking about what move to click hurts my brain more. So, I wanted to see if there was a way to replicate banded's power without thinking that much and it turned out, life orb dragon dance does that very well
For some random tips on this set, always pair it with Hippowdon. Never have this Tyranitar set do the sand setting on its own. You're gonna run out of sand turns of that does happen. Next, boost up against mons that are passive like Blissey or Mandibuzz or even Heatran. Lastly, always have a backup answer to Garchomp and Rillaboom. Those two outspeed this set even after a dance so you need to have an answer to the both of them, especially Rillaboom. Garchomp not so much as if you get two dances then you're gonna outspeed it
I have been using a bulky Dragonite set similar to this one and agree that it has a solid place in the current metagame. Well-rounded bulk allows Dragonite's spread to be customized to check many threats, both physical and special. It has a plethora of coverage options to take advantage of its 134/100 offenses, meaning it is never too passive, and it even has a decent support movepool. You already touched on Heal Bell and Defog, but one could also make use of Haze, phasing with Dragon Tail/Roar, or spreading status via Thunder Wave and Toxic.I really like the defensive Dragonite set that Storm Zone used the past two weeks of SPL (week 3, week 4). I'm not exactly sure of what spread/spreads they used, but something as simple as this should work:
Dragonite @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Beam
- Roost
- Heal Bell
Heavy-Duty Boots makes Dragonite far more reliable since it keeps Multiscale intact when Rocks are up, and Dragonite has always had respectable natural bulk (91 HP/95 Def/100 SpDef) and a good typing. A physically defensive set is about as consistent of a Cinderace check as you can get (although being poisoned by Gunk Shot can be a pain) and can also check other threatening attackers like Kartana, Rillaboom, Zeraora, Excadrill, Crawdaunt, and offensive Landorus-T (Stone Edge does 46.1 - 54.4% but only 23 - 27.2% if Multiscale is intact, while Ice Beam does 99 - 116.6% to OHKO back 87.5% of the time). However, Dragonite really doesn't like getting Knocked Off and it's prone to be while switching into many of those physical attackers, so I feel like it benefits a lot from solid Defog support from something like Corviknight, Zapdos, or Tornadus-T. I also don't think that Dragonite makes a very good Defogger itself for the same reason - it's too likely to get Knocked and has a hard time removing hazards itself while also keeping Multiscale active. Heal Bell is really nice right now anyway with how common it is for Ground types like Lando or Hippowdon to trade Toxics and how status from Static/Flame Body and things like Thunder Wave Clefable are also commonplace. Heal Bell helps Dragonite itself stay healthier as well, which is nice in case it does get statused by something like Cinderace's Gunk Shot. I feel like Earthquake and Ice Beam are all that Dragonite really needs for coverage to hit hard what it's meant to check, especially coming off of Dragonite's 134 base Attack and 100 base Special Attack stats; this makes Dragonite less passive and more immediately threatening than other defensive Pokemon, even without any attacking investment.
Multiscale makes it an excellent emergency check to many boosting threats, and Dnite can utilize either phasing or raw offensive power to take care of such foes.
252 SpA Life Orb Magearna Draining Kiss vs. 252 HP / 204+ SpD Dragonite: 159-190 (41.1 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO ---> note that Multiscale is not intact here, meaning that this SpDef Dragonite can always switch in and phase
0 Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 166-196 (55.1 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, but watch out for policy
One other thing to note that I didn't see in your post is that with Earthquake + Heal Bell, Dragonite is by far the most consistent Heatran switch-in that I have found for bulkier teams. While I have been using a more specially defensive spread, Magma Storm does very little to any Dragonite variant due to its typing and bulk. These factors alone already make it a solid check, but with Roost and Heal Bell, it can completely shut down Heatran while keeping itself and its team healthy over the course of a match, even against the Toxic variants that put Garchomp, the Slowtwins and non-Rest Ttar on a timer. With some speed investment, you can outspeed bulky Taunt Heatran to ensure that Dragonite gets a Roost off before it can click Taunt. Alternatively, kill it in one hit with Earthquake:
0 Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 352-416 (91.1 - 107.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Goodbye & Thanks
Thrown in a fire?
Yeah Dragonite is a good answer to Heatran, but even if you're carrying Heal Bell on it, it still really doesn't like to take a Toxic. The problem with Dragonite taking a Toxic is that it receives poison damage on that turn and your opponent can switch out to something that threatens Dragonite on the next turn when you go for Heal Bell. This can be troublesome because you're forced to switch Dragonite out at less than full health, meaning that when you switch it back in, it won't have Multiscale active. Dragonite sometimes relies on Multiscale to safely switch into attacks and a lot of times it feels like your goal when using Dragonite is just to eat attacks and Roost back up to full, so that you can safely switch in against more attacks later. I feel like this reliance on being at full health to maximize its defensive capabilities is one of Dragonite's greatest limitations, along with being Rocks weak while also having a tendency to get Knocked (which obviously pairs badly with it needing to be at full health for Multiscale), and with how wanting to Roost back to full health can sometimes make Dragonite more of a momentum sink. It isn't like Dragonite absolutely needs Multiscale to be active for it to function as a solid defensive Pokemon, but it is one of its biggest selling points over other defensive Pokemon in the tier. So all in all, I agree with you that having Dragonite is nice against Heatran, but I also wanted to clarify for everyone that even with Heal Bell, Dragonite really doesn't like getting statused and shouldn't be viewed as anything like a status absorber, especially with Heal Bell only having 8 PP.
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There's been a lot of talk, either in terms of potential suspect tests or in a more general sense, about Magearna and Cinderace. They're both obviously very top-tier mons and the undisputed two best mons in the tier (though which is the best or the second-best is admittedly more up in the air), but I feel like there are some other mons that, though accepted to be great for some time now, deserve to be talked about now more than ever. They aren't broken, but they're all certainly excellent.
Landorus-Therian has been on a truly meteoric rise back to stardom as of recently. It continues to do the things Landorus-T has always been good at; that is to say, it can do basically anything you want it to do, but cannot do everything you would want it to do. It's a good Choice Scarfer in a tier devoid of good Choice Scarfers, it's an excellent pivot and Rocker, and it continues to find its way onto almost any team archetype due to the absurd amount of role compression it offers. And at the end of the day, it's still Landorus-T through-and-through: it's excellent at almost anything it does, but it's never overbearing and always honest. Magearna and Cinderace are both obviously the head honchos of OU, but I think Lando-T has solidified itself as the undisputed third-best mon in the OU tier.
I've thought extremely highly of Garchomp since the very beginning of the Crown Tundra/DLC2 meta--I even went so far as to put it in the S-ranks on my personal VR in a meta still occupied by the likes of Zygarde, Kyurem-B, Pheromosa, Urshifu-S, and Spectrier--but in a much more developed DLC2 OU metagame Chomp has truly taken off. Back then I thought very highly of Tank Chomp, and while I still think highly of it I firmly believe its Swords Dance+Scale Shot set is one of the most definitive OU threats. Yet despite being an absolute beast offensively with its nigh-untouchable dual STABs and great coverage alongside its ever-important 102 Speed, Chomp is never a slouch defensively either. It's still able to reliably set up Stealth Rock and it still offers teams with all the excellent qualities of a fast, hard-hitting Ground type that is mandatory on nearly any team. Physical attackers, and especially U-Turn/Flip Turn users, detest its existence thanks to Rough Skin.
Garchomp is considered to be arguably the fourth-best mon in the metagame, behind Magearna, Cinderace, and Landorus-T, but I think that it and Landorus-T have never been closer to equal than they are now. It's just as splashable and it's just as consistent as its Ground-type comrade-in-arms, but it succeeds in manners Landorus-T cannot, and vise-versa. These two completely and unconditionally define what it means to be a Ground-type in OverUsed currently; you will almost always be building a non-Stall team with one of these two in mind. You can often modify a team with Garchomp slightly and substitute Landorus-T for it, and you can often modify a team with Landorus-T slightly and substitute Garchomp for it. Garchomp and Landorus-T are the platinum standard for Ground-types; any Ground-type you would ever consider running in this meta must first differentiate itself from a member of this duo; all Ground-types that fail to stand out will remain in their shadow. Fortunately, though, there are some Ground-types that absolutely manage to stand out in a world where these two set the bar so incredibly high.
Galarian Slowking has been one of the most defining mons in OU for quite some time, and after the ban of one of the few special attackers that could reliably beat it 1v1 this thing is slated to become, in my opinion, one of the ten best OU mons. This thing is so absurdly good at what it does that I firmly believe it's singlehandedly keeping Magearna honest. It blanks almost every Special Attacker in the tier with its flagship Assault Vest set and is basically impossible to switch in against except with one's own Galarian Slowking, but I've been experimenting a great deal with the Nasty Plot set that recently came up in this thread and it is an absolute behemoth in its own right, leveraging the King's incredible typing and movepool to break past defensive threats it has no business breaking past. I often find myself just slapping either Assault Vest or Nasty Plot Galarian Slowking on a team and just making it automatically better; it's that good.
Going back to its Assault Vest set, usually walls are a bit more on the passive side; this couldn't be further from the truth for the King, though, as he has virtually no safe switchins. Nothing that can eat a Sludge Bomb appreciates either getting Poisoned or eating a hit from its bottomless movepool. It has Earthquake for both Heatran and the incredibly common Slowking mirror; it has Ice Beam for Chomp and Lando; it has Scald or Hydro Pump for most Grounds and most Fire-types; it has Icy Wind for additional utility; this thing has everything going for it and then some, and the only issue is deciding what that final moveslot is supposed to lure in and defeat; its STABs and Fire coverage do enough work on their own.
Hydreigon's defensive set--the set that saw the most prominence in the Spectrier meta--is now dead. But instead of its only niche being eliminated, the only reason why that set was mandatory has been eliminated instead, which gives the hydra the ability to once more spread its wings and run its absurdly dangerous offensive variants. Nasty Plot Hydreigon has almost no defensive counterplay once it gets going, as long as it packs the necessary coverage, and it has the longevity to ensure that it can come in multiple times a game and wreak havoc. Hydreigon's defensive utility still exists, but now it doesn't have to play exclusively towards its defensiveness. Hydreigon has a lot of potential to become a big part of the meta once again.
Yet another mon on a truly meteoric rise, Tornadus-Therian is extremely consistent as a pivot, as a Defogger, and as a breaker thanks to its newfound access to Nasty Plot. It is without question the best Defogger in the tier, and with moves like Knock Off and U-Turn in the support department and its powerful Hurricane and incredible coverage in Focus Blast and Heat Wave, Torn-T ensures that it can always threaten basically anything in the OU tier, so long as Hurricane and Focus Blast connect. Regenerator was expected to run the OU tier this gen, and with this thing, Slowbro, and Galarian Slowking becoming better than ever that reality suddenly doesn't seem so far-fetched.
Dragapult took a surprising nosedive in terms of both ladder usage and overall ranking on the VR, but started returning to the limelight come SPL (even when Spectrier was still around). Spectrier's existence did Dragapult few favors, though; while Dragapult has the Speed to outpace base 130s quite easily with a +Speed nature, it often had to forego significant power to do so in order to not become yet another Spectrier victim. Now that Spectrier is banned, Dragapult can keep doing all the things it's good at--pivoting, spreading status, wallbreaking, revenge killing, setting up for a sweep, and the like--without foregoing any of its power to do so since it can now afford to run a neutral nature. Whether or not Dragapult will once again become one of OU's absolute top threats remains to be seen, but the metagame's recent changes are certainly setting up for Dragapult to recapture at least a semblance of its former glory.
Kyurem is yet another rising star in the meta, and not too many people should be particularly surprised by this fact. There is absolutely nothing in OU that can safely switch in against an unscouted Kyurem, and more players are exploring its set diversity on the ladder nowadays. Of course, Specs is still the one set that instills fear in many; the chill that runs down an unprepared player's spine as he or she stares down a Specs Kyurem that comes in safely pales in comparison to the chill that will run through the defensive backbone of a team that, most of the time, isn't prepared to switch in on a Specs-boosted Ice Beam or Freeze-Dry. But Sub+Roost, Dragon Dance, and Sub+DD are still very threatening, and while Specs is often a candidate for OU's new best wallbreaker the threat of the unknown is often even bigger than the threat of Specs; it can very realistically muscle past its checks with a different set, and it's up to you--the player staring at it in Team Preview--to figure out how to figure it out and stop it first.
The post-Spectrier meta has a lot of potential to be very interesting, and I'm quite interested in seeing how these threats will perform both on the ladder and in tournament play going forward. What do you all make of them?
Landorus-Therian has been on a truly meteoric rise back to stardom as of recently. It continues to do the things Landorus-T has always been good at; that is to say, it can do basically anything you want it to do, but cannot do everything you would want it to do. It's a good Choice Scarfer in a tier devoid of good Choice Scarfers, it's an excellent pivot and Rocker, and it continues to find its way onto almost any team archetype due to the absurd amount of role compression it offers. And at the end of the day, it's still Landorus-T through-and-through: it's excellent at almost anything it does, but it's never overbearing and always honest. Magearna and Cinderace are both obviously the head honchos of OU, but I think Lando-T has solidified itself as the undisputed third-best mon in the OU tier.
I've thought extremely highly of Garchomp since the very beginning of the Crown Tundra/DLC2 meta--I even went so far as to put it in the S-ranks on my personal VR in a meta still occupied by the likes of Zygarde, Kyurem-B, Pheromosa, Urshifu-S, and Spectrier--but in a much more developed DLC2 OU metagame Chomp has truly taken off. Back then I thought very highly of Tank Chomp, and while I still think highly of it I firmly believe its Swords Dance+Scale Shot set is one of the most definitive OU threats. Yet despite being an absolute beast offensively with its nigh-untouchable dual STABs and great coverage alongside its ever-important 102 Speed, Chomp is never a slouch defensively either. It's still able to reliably set up Stealth Rock and it still offers teams with all the excellent qualities of a fast, hard-hitting Ground type that is mandatory on nearly any team. Physical attackers, and especially U-Turn/Flip Turn users, detest its existence thanks to Rough Skin.
Garchomp is considered to be arguably the fourth-best mon in the metagame, behind Magearna, Cinderace, and Landorus-T, but I think that it and Landorus-T have never been closer to equal than they are now. It's just as splashable and it's just as consistent as its Ground-type comrade-in-arms, but it succeeds in manners Landorus-T cannot, and vise-versa. These two completely and unconditionally define what it means to be a Ground-type in OverUsed currently; you will almost always be building a non-Stall team with one of these two in mind. You can often modify a team with Garchomp slightly and substitute Landorus-T for it, and you can often modify a team with Landorus-T slightly and substitute Garchomp for it. Garchomp and Landorus-T are the platinum standard for Ground-types; any Ground-type you would ever consider running in this meta must first differentiate itself from a member of this duo; all Ground-types that fail to stand out will remain in their shadow. Fortunately, though, there are some Ground-types that absolutely manage to stand out in a world where these two set the bar so incredibly high.
Galarian Slowking has been one of the most defining mons in OU for quite some time, and after the ban of one of the few special attackers that could reliably beat it 1v1 this thing is slated to become, in my opinion, one of the ten best OU mons. This thing is so absurdly good at what it does that I firmly believe it's singlehandedly keeping Magearna honest. It blanks almost every Special Attacker in the tier with its flagship Assault Vest set and is basically impossible to switch in against except with one's own Galarian Slowking, but I've been experimenting a great deal with the Nasty Plot set that recently came up in this thread and it is an absolute behemoth in its own right, leveraging the King's incredible typing and movepool to break past defensive threats it has no business breaking past. I often find myself just slapping either Assault Vest or Nasty Plot Galarian Slowking on a team and just making it automatically better; it's that good.
Going back to its Assault Vest set, usually walls are a bit more on the passive side; this couldn't be further from the truth for the King, though, as he has virtually no safe switchins. Nothing that can eat a Sludge Bomb appreciates either getting Poisoned or eating a hit from its bottomless movepool. It has Earthquake for both Heatran and the incredibly common Slowking mirror; it has Ice Beam for Chomp and Lando; it has Scald or Hydro Pump for most Grounds and most Fire-types; it has Icy Wind for additional utility; this thing has everything going for it and then some, and the only issue is deciding what that final moveslot is supposed to lure in and defeat; its STABs and Fire coverage do enough work on their own.
Hydreigon's defensive set--the set that saw the most prominence in the Spectrier meta--is now dead. But instead of its only niche being eliminated, the only reason why that set was mandatory has been eliminated instead, which gives the hydra the ability to once more spread its wings and run its absurdly dangerous offensive variants. Nasty Plot Hydreigon has almost no defensive counterplay once it gets going, as long as it packs the necessary coverage, and it has the longevity to ensure that it can come in multiple times a game and wreak havoc. Hydreigon's defensive utility still exists, but now it doesn't have to play exclusively towards its defensiveness. Hydreigon has a lot of potential to become a big part of the meta once again.
Yet another mon on a truly meteoric rise, Tornadus-Therian is extremely consistent as a pivot, as a Defogger, and as a breaker thanks to its newfound access to Nasty Plot. It is without question the best Defogger in the tier, and with moves like Knock Off and U-Turn in the support department and its powerful Hurricane and incredible coverage in Focus Blast and Heat Wave, Torn-T ensures that it can always threaten basically anything in the OU tier, so long as Hurricane and Focus Blast connect. Regenerator was expected to run the OU tier this gen, and with this thing, Slowbro, and Galarian Slowking becoming better than ever that reality suddenly doesn't seem so far-fetched.
Dragapult took a surprising nosedive in terms of both ladder usage and overall ranking on the VR, but started returning to the limelight come SPL (even when Spectrier was still around). Spectrier's existence did Dragapult few favors, though; while Dragapult has the Speed to outpace base 130s quite easily with a +Speed nature, it often had to forego significant power to do so in order to not become yet another Spectrier victim. Now that Spectrier is banned, Dragapult can keep doing all the things it's good at--pivoting, spreading status, wallbreaking, revenge killing, setting up for a sweep, and the like--without foregoing any of its power to do so since it can now afford to run a neutral nature. Whether or not Dragapult will once again become one of OU's absolute top threats remains to be seen, but the metagame's recent changes are certainly setting up for Dragapult to recapture at least a semblance of its former glory.
Kyurem is yet another rising star in the meta, and not too many people should be particularly surprised by this fact. There is absolutely nothing in OU that can safely switch in against an unscouted Kyurem, and more players are exploring its set diversity on the ladder nowadays. Of course, Specs is still the one set that instills fear in many; the chill that runs down an unprepared player's spine as he or she stares down a Specs Kyurem that comes in safely pales in comparison to the chill that will run through the defensive backbone of a team that, most of the time, isn't prepared to switch in on a Specs-boosted Ice Beam or Freeze-Dry. But Sub+Roost, Dragon Dance, and Sub+DD are still very threatening, and while Specs is often a candidate for OU's new best wallbreaker the threat of the unknown is often even bigger than the threat of Specs; it can very realistically muscle past its checks with a different set, and it's up to you--the player staring at it in Team Preview--to figure out how to figure it out and stop it first.
The post-Spectrier meta has a lot of potential to be very interesting, and I'm quite interested in seeing how these threats will perform both on the ladder and in tournament play going forward. What do you all make of them?
the "It absolutely would take an overwhelming amount of support to have a quickban in the middle of a seemingly playable metagame state" isn't an argument because there's been plenty of pokemon that are very quickban worthy in playable metagames, even in recent times being mosa in dlc2 as well. I think the idea of a meta having to be unplayable for any course of action to be taken swiftly doesn't make sense because for a pokemon to make a metagame unplayable, you have to be both broken as well as over centralizing. Because of the logic of a meta having to be unplayable and the cause for that to happen in the meta has to be THAT extreme, you get many cases such as spectrier who aren't downright broken but are over centralizing that through logic/reasoning along with the votes it clearly was quick bannable pokemon. Same thing goes for Dracovish but to a more extreme fashion. You can also say the same thing for pheromosa but the other way around, it was broken in gameplay as it had limited answers defensively and offensively and was hard to get rid of but wasn't overcentralizing, and through logic and reasoning and through the votes you can clearly tell it was a quick bannable pokemon, but because the extremes of what makes a pokemon quickbannable (being that it has to make the meta unlayable and thus it has to be over centralizing and down right broken EX:Zygarde,arena trap,and Kyub) are so difficult to achieve pokemon clearly too good for ou like the examples i've listed are now in a "months waiting line list" to be taken care of. I agree that it is fair that people get their say to vote for the metagame but the logic of "if its not unplayable deal with it until people vote" is just illogical because it doesn't take an unplayable metagame to have a pokemon that should be ubers, because if that WAS the case we wouldn't have banned spectrier because if it's "playable" enough to not get quick banned than why was it banned? I know what you said doesn't speak on the behalf of all council members or how it works, and this isn't to hate on you guys just giving my thoughts, but I think you should seriously relook this opinion and not put a blanket term that is too unrealistic for a pokemon to reach, for them to be deemed quick bannable.
EDIT: to further emphasis I am not complaining about how the tiering is done or that its too slow or anything I am just disagreeing with the opinion that having a pokemon to be quick ban worthy requires a unplayable meta.
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I'm fine with advocating for more liberal quickbans if this is reflected in the community responses to the upcoming tiering survey. Again: I firmly believe that the players who care about the tier should have a say in how the tiering process proceeds.
However, that is a two way street. My personal belief that taking the power away from the community is something that should only be done during more extreme cases is also justified by the above line of logic; this is why I am not fond of a lot of quickbans unless there is some community-wide consensus to back it (see: the Cinderace quickban in DLC1 after the first survey and the early DLC2 quickbans after the second survey). We have acted promptly and in the fashion deemed more desirable by the playerbase each time a survey has happened, so I do not see why there would be much fuss. Finaly, a lot of people claim suspects are formalities as a whole and that we should apply quickbans much more liberally, but during the last two generations, we have had suspects that resulted in no ban. Using the survey system we are allows us to get input to make the most informed decisions, which I feel is a huge step in the right direction.
Hope this clears things up -- I really just want the people who play and understand the tier to drive the progression of the tier.
However, that is a two way street. My personal belief that taking the power away from the community is something that should only be done during more extreme cases is also justified by the above line of logic; this is why I am not fond of a lot of quickbans unless there is some community-wide consensus to back it (see: the Cinderace quickban in DLC1 after the first survey and the early DLC2 quickbans after the second survey). We have acted promptly and in the fashion deemed more desirable by the playerbase each time a survey has happened, so I do not see why there would be much fuss. Finaly, a lot of people claim suspects are formalities as a whole and that we should apply quickbans much more liberally, but during the last two generations, we have had suspects that resulted in no ban. Using the survey system we are allows us to get input to make the most informed decisions, which I feel is a huge step in the right direction.
Hope this clears things up -- I really just want the people who play and understand the tier to drive the progression of the tier.