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why exactly has Mew risen in usage recently? I know that the Cosmic Power set can be devastating, but I find that it has a difficult time setting up as it's kinda passive without a boost.
Also, is utility Mew any good in this meta? It has a ton of utility moves like SR, Spikes, Will-O-Wisp, Defog, Thunderwave, Heal Bell, and reliable recovery, but mono-psychic isn't that great, giving it bad match-ups against Volc, Dragapult, Weavile, etc.
why exactly has Mew risen in usage recently? I know that the Cosmic Power set can be devastating, but I find that it has a difficult time setting up as it's kinda passive without a boost.
Also, is utility Mew any good in this meta? It has a ton of utility moves like SR, Spikes, Will-O-Wisp, Defog, Thunderwave, Heal Bell, and reliable recovery, but mono-psychic isn't that great, giving it bad match-ups against Volc, Dragapult, Weavile, etc.
The main set is the utility spikes mew set, applies a lot of pressure and supports a team. Cosmic power mew is very MU fishy and is either dead weight or insta win.
why exactly has Mew risen in usage recently? I know that the Cosmic Power set can be devastating, but I find that it has a difficult time setting up as it's kinda passive without a boost.
Also, is utility Mew any good in this meta? It has a ton of utility moves like SR, Spikes, Will-O-Wisp, Defog, Thunderwave, Heal Bell, and reliable recovery, but mono-psychic isn't that great, giving it bad match-ups against Volc, Dragapult, Weavile, etc.
Utility Mew is actually Mew’s best variant; specifically, with Spikes! It’s a rare Spikes setter that is able to take advantage of Pokemon like Slowking and Tapu Lele while boasting an insane support movepool between options like Knock Off, Taunt or Will-O-Wisp as you mentioned. Taunt is probably my favorite option though as it lets Mew set Spikes against Corviknight (which is a rather amazing feat) and ultimately gives Spikes more value against teams utilizing Corviknight for removal. However, moves like Night Shade and Will-O-Wisp are also fairly viable options. The former particularly has seen a lot of use especially since in tandem with Spikes, Knock Off and its naturally good Speed it can provide a lot of innate pressure against Balances with consistent and situationally even potent pressure thanks to Night Shade’s consistent damage output.
It doesn’t really use Defog and Heal Bell much if at all though, since it’s valued for its unique combination of attributes that let it perform as a Spikes setter more than anything else. As a Defog user it could potentially have some merit due to its phenomenal movepool to pressure Stealth Rock setters and its Speed tier, but it’s yet to see any breakout innovation especially because it faces far more strenuous competition as a Defog user than as a Spikes setter. Corviknight provides incredibly valuable defensive role compression for teams in comparison, and even Utility Dragonite tends to fulfill the role of a Defog user that acts as a Heatran check considerably better.
For the future, I would use the SQSA thread which is designed for these types of questions, if you have any more; I hope this helps though!
I started playing SS OU for the first time the other day after deciding that my OU tiers of preference (Gens 4-6) were just kind of dead on the forums in terms of discussions or community activities, particularly Gen 6 (my favorite) to my dismay.
So I gave SS OU a fair shot to see what it was all about and to maybe get more involved on the forums again seeing as obviously the current gen of OU is where all the forum activity is at. I laddered for give or take 5 hours at work and climbed from the bottom of the ladder to just above 1600 elo, as well as participated in some Showdown tours. So my picture of the OU meta is definitely far from complete still and I also haven't really experienced any high level play myself, so take all that as you will as I make my next observations. And they are just that, observations, not recommendations to do anything. Overall, I actually have had a pretty good time. Now I have a little over 100 games.
However, one thing that really stuck out to me as I played was the new item Heavy-duty Boots. I had heard of this item before and thought I was really going to like its implementation and impact on the metagame, seeing as I had been used to 4 generations now of entry hazards being an oppressive and ubiquitous force.
But I came away with a more lukewarm sentiment. Maybe if buffed Defog didn't also exist I'd be more ok with the boots existing, but really I think the boots are an overcompensation on GF's part to nerf hazards even more, and tries to be what Defog already was, and was much better two generations ago (I'll elaborate on this). Honestly the idea of this item is really cool and on the surface seems to provide nothing but positives to the way the game is played, but I'm going to beg to differ here since I think the prevalence of this item has come with some nasty externalities that imo are worth discussing. If this has already been brought up in previous discussions on this thread or other discussion threads then forgive me for the redundancy, I had no mind to dig through hundreds of pages of threads to see if this was already talked about in this manner or to see if someone else had already tried to make my points.
One more disclaimer before I really start getting on my soapbox (maybe I should have made a new thread, idk), I'll say right off the bat that my issues with how HDBs affect the game have nothing to do with any particular threats that were very hazard weak in the past now being empowered by this item, since I'm sure many of you may jump to the conclusion that this is what I'm referring to. In other words, I'm not here to whine about mons like Volcarona or Dragonite in particular using this item since I'd argue they're actually both easier to deal with in SS than previous gens.
No, what I really want to talk about is how HDB has inadvertently slowed the pace of 6v6 singles considerably and even removed some strategic elements from it compared to previous generations.
In prior generations, managing the field was a huge part of a player's long term game, and served to accelerate the deterioration of an opponent's team. Entry hazards were your resource tax for playing conservatively (aka like a wuss) and switching around constantly between checks/counters to your opponent, and as a result quickened the pace of games as well. The longer games went on, the more entry hazard damage players were taking, and removing those entry hazards had its own opportunity cost because it required/spent activity that did not advance the game in any other way. Either way you were spending a resource of some kind to manage the field. Managing every pixel of HP as a resource could become incredibly intense in the late game. That sort of gets to the core of my issue with HDB, unlike using Rapid Spin or Defog, equipping HDB is entirely passive and doesn't contribute to the depth of a game much at all. It doesn't contribute much if at all to the "dance" so to speak present in competitive singles games. I guess you could argue Knock Off makes the item more strategically involved but to me at least, Knock Off, despite how common it is, doesn't do that much to mitigate the effectiveness of HDB.
In SS the state of a player's field can feel like a bit of an afterthought when multiple Pokemon on each team are just ignoring entry hazards altogether, and can make some games feel more "stall-y" than they should even when not referring to the actual teamstyle. I had a game recently where I encountered a mirror to my defensive Zapdos with HDB and eventually we ended up spending a dozen or so turns just Discharging/Hurricaning and Roosting in each others faces because both Zapdos were holding our teams together and essentially decided that game but neither Zapdos was taking enough residual damage over the course of the game for a killing blow from anything it would want to stay in on. It wasn't fun, and trying to gain advantage via the field instead of brute force to wear down the other Zapdos until its that little bit too weak to take a hit from something it soft checks, suddenly isn't an option or factor at all. Who had Stealth Rocks up and who didn't at what points in the game? Didn't matter in the slightest in determining who lost their Zapdos first.
In a way SS reminded me of ADV and why I don't really jive with the pace of ADV, a meta where most things run Leftovers because there isnt anything better to run and lots of top Pokemon ignore the only entry hazard.
But wait, isnt the power level of ADV much lower than that of SS? So how can the pace feel similar? Well, thats a good question, and incidentally, one of the reasons involves HDB again. No doubt SS is still an overall much more powerful meta than ADV, but not only are the defensive/pivot Pokemon better too, but many offensive Pokemon in SS elect to use HDB in their sets instead of power boosting items, relying on set up moves instead to truly pack a punch. Choice items and especially Life Orb have comparatively fallen out of favor quite a bit on offensive Pokemon, even those just neutral to Rocks but grounded often choose HDB (an example being Zeraora). This in combination with the lack of Z moves and Megas makes for a current Gen OU that feels a bit weaker, a bit softer, than it should be, leading to the slower pace of games I've already described.
ORAS OU is often the gen that gets the bad rap of being a meta of long, exhausting games where bulky balances struggle to make progress against each other, but I honestly feel this descriptor is more apt for SS than it has been for ORAS in the past couple of years, and its in no small part because of HDB as I've explained.
TLDR; On the surface HDB doesn't seem to affect all too much beyond its description but it has had a ripple effect which turned me off a bit from how SS feels to play.
The effectiveness of residual damage being severely undercut again combined with the reduced immediate power level of offensive Pokemon who prefer HDB over boosting items has contributed to a metagame where playing anything less aggressive than HO can feel a little more annoying and slow paced than what one would expect from a current gen OU over 20 years into the franchise.
Of course, there is such a thing as going too far with how effective residual damage is, just look at BW OU, but I personally feel like the Defog buff in Gen 6 was an enlightened balance change to tune down hazards without obsoleting them and still requiring active play to make use of, and that by comparison HDB goes a little too far for my taste in changing how SS plays. A neat item on paper that actually does a little bit more harm than good.
i highly respect the fact that this man wrote a literal essay on hdb and how it can be considered as a negative part of the metagame without complaining about mons like Volcarona and avoiding rambling on about the same topic. in the past ive said that hdb's issue spans more than just making stuff like volcarona dumb. its a item in nature that halts progress, forcing some games to be solely focused on removing them to win. this leads into the one thing I want to add about the above post.
knock off has always been a great move, however, its become a necessity this gen due to the existence of hdb. its common for teams to run multiple mons with the move to try and remove hdb so you can make progress via hazards. think about how important it is to knock off things like slowking and blissey so they cant infinitely port into threats on your team. removing boots on birds like zapdos and mandi is huge in a game with say a rilla, so their forced to be more conservative with turns in order to not sack their defogger while still trying to stop rilla with winning. knocking wincons like volcarona, kyurem, and dragonite can literally be a game winning turn. fast pivots like koko, torn and zera getting knocked can also be very important to winning a game so they cant just come in and spam voltturn. knock off is a very important move in this generation, and while weavile and bisharp are great mons on their own, their access to knock really makes them more useful than they would be in generation without hdb.
while what i said above is all super surface level stuff, its interesting how the addition of one item can drastically change how the metagame plays and the viability of some strategies (ex. knock off spam, fsport). hdb being able to negate hazards removes a very important risk reward factor we had in previous generations. you typically get rewarded for running hdb with very little risk, in some games this forces into some very brain dead turns where no matter how well you play, you can still be put in a very poor situation. personally i consider these types of scenarios that the existence of hdb creates not competitive. while hdb is very good item and warps the very way we play gen8, im unsure if its something we should ban or not. no matter what, its something thats worth talking about because its without a doubt very centralizing.
I'd like to talk about an underrated Pokemon in SS OU, Glastrier.
You probably all saw it a bit in the new toy hype of early DLC2, and got disappointed by its horrible speed and bad defensive typing, which is why despite its enormous stats it now resides in NU. While undercut somewhat by its weaknesses, Glastrier has the sheer bulk (physically greater than even Tangrowth) to take some ridiculous stuff, for example:
252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Smart Strike vs 252 HP / 0 Def Glastrier: 354-416 (87.6 - 102.9%) - 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs 252 HP / 0 Def Glastrier: 130-154 (32.1 - 38.1%) - 0.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs 252 HP / 4 SpD Glastrier: 244-288 (60.3 - 71.2%) - guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Shadow Ball does 45% max)
252 Atk Zeraora Close Combat vs 252 HP / 0 Def Glastrier: 188-222 (46.5 - 54.9%) - 9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
80 SpA Slowking-Galar Flamethrower vs 252 HP / 4 SpD Glastrier: 140-166 (34.6 - 41%) - 64.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs 252 HP / 4 SpD Glastrier: 330-390 (81.6 - 96.5%) - guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and trapping damage
Usually not worth attempting that last calc, but since you can always OHKO any Heatran with a (not usually difficult with Tran) tiny bit of chip the possibility is always there should you need it.
Sample set:
Glastrier @ Leftovers
Ability: Chilling Neigh
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Swords Dance
- Icicle Crash
- High Horsepower
With max HP, Slowking can't break a Substitute with Scald, and Blissey can't with Seismic Toss, making both pure setup fodder, and Clefable has unfavourable odds to do so. Glastrier's biggest advantage may be against Corviknight. While its Ice-type counterparts Weavile and Mamoswine are walled, Glastrier can outspeed with the given set and does this:
168+ Def Corviknight Body Press vs 252 HP / 0 Def Glastrier: 124-146 (30.6 - 36.1%) - guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 0 Atk Glastrier Icicle Crash vs 252 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 189-223 (47.2 - 55.7%) - 78.5% chance to 2HKO
Corviknight can only really hope to check Glastrier by coming in and U-turning into a revenge killer, but as U-turn doesn't break the Substitute, predict correctly and any revenge killer has to be able to take a +2 attack, and it can only safely take one +2 Icicle Crash.
I admit the Volcarona weakness also looks off-putting, but I think Glastrier makes up for it with its considerable lack of other counters: Slowbro and Slowking are just setup fodder, and Toxapex is 2HKOed by +2 High Horsepower. Only Taunt Tapu Fini, Volcarona, Iron Defense Skarmory, Rotom-W, Buzzwole, Urshifu-R and for one time Melmetal can switch in and reliably beat it, and almost all take heavy damage in the process.
Glastrier is effective at abusing Slowking and Corviknight primarily, making it a good partner for stuff that doesn't enjoy facing them, and it will almost always trade with something, as the only relevant attacks that can always OHKO it are Choice Band Urshifu-R's Close Combat and Melmetal's Double Iron Bash. It's definitely not a Pokemon that can just be put on any team and expected to do lots, but build with it carefully and it will be rewarding. I believe it's considerably underrated and has a lot more potential than we've used it for so far, it is definitely not only for Trick Room teams.
I love this set. I've tried to make Glastrier work many times, using sets like HDB SD 3 Atks, and Choice Band, but I've never considered a bulky SD sub variant. Extremely creative! I'm definitely going to give this a try, maybe this will be the time Glastrier works.
Reading about peoples opinions on how HDB affects the meta got me to think, how does everyone feel about the idea of a item clause? I know its not going to happen and personally I dont think we need it, but I would like to hear peoples opinions about this, as it would really affect certain strategies. No more would we be facing multiple pokemon with HDB, or deal with a bunch of fast frail sweepers running choice items or focus sashes.
Reading about peoples opinions on how HDB affects the meta got me to think, how does everyone feel about the idea of a item clause? I know its not going to happen and personally I dont think we need it, but I would like to hear peoples opinions about this, as it would really affect certain strategies. No more would we be facing multiple pokemon with HDB, or deal with a bunch of fast frail sweepers running choice items or focus sashes.
I would personally love this. The item limitation is the only reason why I enjoyed double battles and the game's battle facilities. It would add a whole new complexity to the game if items cannot be repeated and I really think it would be interesting. I even thought that smogon had an item clause before I actually read the clause list
I have honestly seen this scenario play out so many times that a old generation player gives SS OU a try and comes out feeling that HBDs are bad for the game and the pace is slow. Lord Wallace, this is not a jib at you, we all have been there, particular the Wishport meta when people had just started using Boots on mons like Pult and Zeraora and then it seemed justified as well.
The DLCs happened and the meta changed, we saw old faces in OU but there were a ton of new ones as well. The meta was expected to somewhat resemble gen 7 and it did, mons like Lando, Ferro and Tran were still top tier, afterall. But we saw unexpected trends as well, no one would have ever believed that Zeraora would be in same tier with Lando let alone without HP Ice. Aegis and Blaziken dropping from OU. Latis not being very good despite no Pursuit. These are established intricacies of Gen 8 that are strange from the perspective of a Gen 7 player.
My point is that people always compare Gen 8 to it's previous Gens but it is it's own unique generation with it's own unique meta game. It focuses on positioning and longevity rather than residual damage. And that being worse is merely subjective. Maybe someone likes the hazard settings aspect and perhaps another would like the positioning aspect, it's personal preference. Trying to change Gen 8 to mimick the previous Gens play style doesn't make sense.
As to Boots themselves, they are just balanced. The entire story is right there, you equip this item and you ignore entry hazards on switch in. The downside? You lose out on a potential power boosting item or healing item. Now that downside is more than worth it for a LOT of mons but that just speaks to the power of entry hazards, that a mon is willing to essentially play without an item for not taking damage on entry, rather than boots. The problem arises when a mon equipped with boots becomes broken. But IMHO, if hazards are required to keep a mon in check, it is already a problem.
Now, I will highlight some trends that counter these perceptions of Gen 8 being slow and Hazards losing their worth -
1) Rocks are still a nigh necessity on every team. Half the reason Knock Off being so omnipresent in the first place is to Knock Off boots for, you guessed it, rocks.
2) Spikes have increased a lot again with Mew and Skarmory rising and Ferro, though dropping, is still comfortably a good part of the tier. The fact remains that as good as boots are, we still have a lot of mons that simply can't afford them think Heatran, Pex. Chomp, Fini. Lele, Lando, Ferro, etc. Even just rocks are important to keep chipping them. Another fact is that nobody would pull up with 6 boots mons, you need to pressure mons that don't have them on the team. Hazards are still a vital part of the tier but not the very center of every battle anymore which IMO is a good change.
3) Stall is near unviable as there are just too many threats to account for. It is not that difficult to close out games and there a lot of very good progress makers in the tier. Positioning is the most important aspect. Your boots offensive mons can continuosly come in safely with the absolute ton of pivots we have and make progress. Take for example Zeraora vs Lando with Corvi in the back. Weavile is also making waves with boots. Here the longevity aspect becomes apparent.
4) Longevity being such a focus means that defensive mons without recovery should be at a great disadvantage but mons like Lando, Tran, Ferro, Fini, Kommo O and Tank Chomp are seeing quite a bit of usage and to good results. This shows that there is still plenty of defensive counterplay available as well even on mons without recovery to say nothing of Regen mons and Boots mons like Buzzwole, Sciz etc. Gen 8 is not just a Slugfest where defensive options don't exist at all or a stall fest where nobody can damage anything. You do however need your own offensive presence coupled with defensive answers. Balance or Bulky Offense being the most viable is the sign of a balanced meta game.
5) The weather strategies are still somewhat viable as well as terrains users are straight up good mons. Teams can be built around them effectively and appreciate the boosts that they recieve however they don't warp the entire meta game to the point that they are a requirement. This is honestly a good place for them, IMO. Field conditions should be beneficial if utilised but not a necessity on every team.
To conclude this post I will say that Gen 8 is still not perfect Gen by any means. Those kind of comparisons are subjective anyway. I just wanted to highlight that it is it's very own Gen with both it's own desirable as well as undesirable aspects. Comparing it to Gen 6 or 7 doesn't do it justice and trying to make it for like them takes something away from Gen 8.
Not calling you out specifically, but I see this at the end of most positive posts talking about SS OU. But I also see the imperfections not being mentioned in those same posts.
I mean, you don't have to explain your point if you don't want to.
But it is a bit strange to constantly see people say the meta is good and explain why it's good, but then they say it's not perfect without explaining what they think is bad about it.
Not calling you out specifically, but I see this at the end of most positive posts talking about SS OU. But I also see the imperfections not being mentioned in those same posts.
I mean, you don't have to explain your point if you don't want to.
But it is a bit strange to constantly see people say the meta is good and explain why it's good, but then they say it's not perfect without explaining what they think is bad about it.
I never really claimed whether Gen 8 was good or bad. Throughout the post, I very clearly assert that it is just it's own meta game and different from earlier ones. Also I was just clearing up the misconceptions about the tier, particularly Hazards and the pace. The points I wrote are actually trends that are taking place. As I said above IMO those are good while for somebody else it might not be. The main crux of point was just to shed light on Gen 8 meta individually rather than to compare them to earlier Gens and I did try to explain this to the best of my ability.
I say that Gen 8 is not perfect as simply no gen can be perfect. There simply can't be a meta game that everyone likes everything about. That is people's subjective opinion. You might like something the other person may not. I say that just after the line in the previous post as well. Nothing can be explain about subjective matters.
Lastly, it is impossible to write about every single aspect of the Gen 8 meta game. I didn't write about what I think is good or bad as the point wasn't to give my personal opinion on the matter. My point was that every argument I read about HBDs' effect compares them to the difference between the current gens and the previous gens' metagames but Gen 8 is it's own unique Gen and has it's own unique meta game. I am not saying that we shouldn't try to improve the meta game and accept undesirable elements but if they are actually not problematic within the context of the meta game and just different from earlier ones, then there is no point in discussing those. I mean you are welcome to illustrate what HBDs take away from Gen 8 individually as the meta game has been settling down quite nicely and HBDs haven't even been a suspect in a long time.
Not calling you out specifically, but I see this at the end of most positive posts talking about SS OU. But I also see the imperfections not being mentioned in those same posts.
I mean, you don't have to explain your point if you don't want to.
But it is a bit strange to constantly see people say the meta is good and explain why it's good, but then they say it's not perfect without explaining what they think is bad about it.
I'll tackle this topic real quick: the main issue with this metagame is a crippling, daunting and honestly depressing lack of Gliscor.
I've put this as a joke but I'm low-key serious.
On a more serious note, also I agree with Jokler that this is its own generation with its own mechanics and thus we shouldn't analyze issues with this meta by comparing it to ones from previous generations. We should rather do that in the context of Gen 8 meta alone. "Before we used to check volc/punish switches with rocks but now we can't so HDB is broken and we should do something about it" is not a valid argument in my opinion. Regardless of how it was in the past, ONLY if Volc/BootsTurn (a.k.a. HDB Pivot-centric team styles) becomes too overbearing for the tools we have in Gen 8, then some action should be taken, just like it happened with Cinderace, a mon that was pushed over the edge by the combination of HDB and Libero, not HDB alone (we had a perfectly fine Blaze Cinderace in the meta before). As long as HDB doesn't make every single Pokémon/team style that uses it broken, it's fine for me as part (admittedly pretty big part) of the identity of Gen 8 OU.
I just cracked into the top 500 using a specs Chandelure. Been following this thread a while and its weird seeing all the whingeing about broken mons and HDB etc. I'm absolutely loving the meta. I feel like there's finally good counterplay for every fat mon that otherwise slows play down and reduces the majority of games to bulky mons switching around and recovering off residual and chip damage. Every piece and every turn you have REALLY matters in the current meta. To the point that, I play almost exclusively Offence and HO and I have mostly choiced mons with only rarely more than one set up sweeper per team because some games I simply can't find the space to even click a set up move. To give an example of how much the meta has shifted, I can't remember a time where I was bothered by a Clefable, and Buzzwole is suddenly an OU staple. Mons with massive flaws and massive advantages are shifting in and out of popularity all the time.
I would encourage more out of the box thinking, there is still so much to explore and play around with in this meta. I've been tearing teams apart with Specs Chandelure, Choice Band Dragapult, Choice Scarf Gengar, and other threats that were otherwise underwhelming before or still are considered underwhelming, so nobody expects them.
As for HDB, I don't have a problem with them, since they mean giving up a choice item (which as an offence player I think are far more valuable) or another valuable item. I'm far less scared of a HDB Weavile or Buzzwole than I am of either of those mons with e CB or Buzzwole with a Rocky Helmet.
I remember when people suddenly realized that actually Tangrowth with a rocky helmet wasn't RU tier, but an OU worthy mon. With such a deep roster of viable mons and strategies, if you're not having fun in this meta it's because you're boring.
I have honestly seen this scenario play out so many times that a old generation player gives SS OU a try and comes out feeling that HBDs are bad for the game and the pace is slow. Lord Wallace, this is not a jib at you, we all have been there, particular the Wishport meta when people had just started using Boots on mons like Pult and Zeraora and then it seemed justified as well.
The DLCs happened and the meta changed, we saw old faces in OU but there were a ton of new ones as well. The meta was expected to somewhat resemble gen 7 and it did, mons like Lando, Ferro and Tran were still top tier, afterall. But we saw unexpected trends as well, no one would have ever believed that Zeraora would be in same tier with Lando let alone without HP Ice. Aegis and Blaziken dropping from OU. Latis not being very good despite no Pursuit. These are established intricacies of Gen 8 that are strange from the perspective of a Gen 7 player.
My point is that people always compare Gen 8 to it's previous Gens but it is it's own unique generation with it's own unique meta game. It focuses on positioning and longevity rather than residual damage. And that being worse is merely subjective. Maybe someone likes the hazard settings aspect and perhaps another would like the positioning aspect, it's personal preference. Trying to change Gen 8 to mimick the previous Gens play style doesn't make sense.
As to Boots themselves, they are just balanced. The entire story is right there, you equip this item and you ignore entry hazards on switch in. The downside? You lose out on a potential power boosting item or healing item. Now that downside is more than worth it for a LOT of mons but that just speaks to the power of entry hazards, that a mon is willing to essentially play without an item for not taking damage on entry, rather than boots. The problem arises when a mon equipped with boots becomes broken. But IMHO, if hazards are required to keep a mon in check, it is already a problem.
Now, I will highlight some trends that counter these perceptions of Gen 8 being slow and Hazards losing their worth -
1) Rocks are still a nigh necessity on every team. Half the reason Knock Off being so omnipresent in the first place is to Knock Off boots for, you guessed it, rocks.
2) Spikes have increased a lot again with Mew and Skarmory rising and Ferro, though dropping, is still comfortably a good part of the tier. The fact remains that as good as boots are, we still have a lot of mons that simply can't afford them think Heatran, Pex. Chomp, Fini. Lele, Lando, Ferro, etc. Even just rocks are important to keep chipping them. Another fact is that nobody would pull up with 6 boots mons, you need to pressure mons that don't have them on the team. Hazards are still a vital part of the tier but not the very center of every battle anymore which IMO is a good change.
3) Stall is near unviable as there are just too many threats to account for. It is not that difficult to close out games and there a lot of very good progress makers in the tier. Positioning is the most important aspect. Your boots offensive mons can continuosly come in safely with the absolute ton of pivots we have and make progress. Take for example Zeraora vs Lando with Corvi in the back. Weavile is also making waves with boots. Here the longevity aspect becomes apparent.
4) Longevity being such a focus means that defensive mons without recovery should be at a great disadvantage but mons like Lando, Tran, Ferro, Fini, Kommo O and Tank Chomp are seeing quite a bit of usage and to good results. This shows that there is still plenty of defensive counterplay available as well even on mons without recovery to say nothing of Regen mons and Boots mons like Buzzwole, Sciz etc. Gen 8 is not just a Slugfest where defensive options don't exist at all or a stall fest where nobody can damage anything. You do however need your own offensive presence coupled with defensive answers. Balance or Bulky Offense being the most viable is the sign of a balanced meta game.
5) The weather strategies are still somewhat viable as well as terrains users are straight up good mons. Teams can be built around them effectively and appreciate the boosts that they recieve however they don't warp the entire meta game to the point that they are a requirement. This is honestly a good place for them, IMO. Field conditions should be beneficial if utilised but not a necessity on every team.
To conclude this post I will say that Gen 8 is still not perfect Gen by any means. Those kind of comparisons are subjective anyway. I just wanted to highlight that it is it's very own Gen with both it's own desirable as well as undesirable aspects. Comparing it to Gen 6 or 7 doesn't do it justice and trying to make it for like them takes something away from Gen 8.
Well I'm at least glad I'm not the only one who has felt this way and I'm not just going crazy over here, I suspected that similar sentiments had been expressed before given that Gen 8 isn't that young anymore.
Like I said, I still like Gen 8 overall. There's more positive than negative here despite what my wall of text suggested lol. I don't at all support the idea of any policy action to address HBD let alone an item clause like someone else suggested, especially since I now am seeing those trends you describe as I play more on the higher end of the ladder where people know what they're doing (Spikes in particular has been popping up more for me). This was just something that threw me for a loop in the beginning of dipping my toes into the tier and its still occasionally annoying to realize instances where they've bloated a game's length a bit without changing who has the advantage, I just had to suck it up and get used to it. Plenty of old school players still swear up and down by ADV and even assuming the absolute worst about SS and HDB I still think its a "faster" paced meta than ADV.
So, Gen 8 could definitely be doing worse. I still love Gen 6 to death over it but I'll take HBD over Z move hell any day of the week.
Hello, everyone! We've had a rather eventful past few months: however, it's finally time for what you all have been waiting for: the usage statistics! Let's look into it.
Weavile has experienced arguably one of the most meteoric rises in viability all generation, eclipsed only by Zeraora. Weavile brings a lot to the table as one of the best offensive Pokemon in the tier, between its incredible Speed tier and access to STAB Ice-type Priority, a near unresisted dual STAB combination, and high power STABs backed by an above-average Attack stat.
Although Choice Band Weavile is still a behemoth, in recent times, we've been seeing a gigantic uptick in Swords Dance Weavile, which is arguably the best win condition in the tier thanks to the strength of +2 STAB Knock Off and Triple Axel letting Weavile pierce past Pokemon such as Toxapex or Skarmory that would otherwise check it. Moreover, Triple Axel's power difference in comparison to Icicle Crash is incredibly noticeable; it is far more reliable at bringing respective targets into the range of +2 Knock Off or overwhelming Unaware Clefable. WCoP has created an incredible showing for Weavile's potency in the tier, and seeing it surge from a niche UUBL Pokemon into a premier win condition and form of speed control is unsurprising especially given that it was slated to rise even back in April.
#56 -> #37
Wherever Kyurem goes, Scizor follows. On top of being one of the best Kyurem answers in the metagame, its access to STAB U-turn, defensive role compression in also providing a check to Tapu Lele/unboosted Weavile/Rillaboom, and being a great win condition with Swords Dance all make Scizor a very viable option for offenses to reinforce momentum-oriented cores. Scizor's steady rise in viability has been months' worth, so seeing it finally tip into OU is rather unsurprising.
#39 -> #35
To the average person, Mew's rise to OU is incredibly surprising. On paper, it appears fairly underwhelming with middling stats and is fitted with a rather unimpressive defensive typing, so what gives? The answer lies in Spikes. In a metagame that appreciates hazards to force progress more than ever with a decreased use in hazard control, having options to lay down consistent pressure and punish aggression is incredibly valuable. Moreover, Mew's typing and maddening movepool has proven to be rather nifty on Spikes-setting cores, between options like Night Shade, Taunt, Will-O-Wisp, and Knock Off giving Mew an incredibly unique quality in abusing and facilitating its own Spikes. Furthermore, being able to abuse Slowking and provide a solid, speedy answer to Tapu Lele and Kyurem gives it a surprising amount of value against offenses.
However, the other culprits to Mew's surge in use lie in the infamous "Demon Mew" sets, which are a weirdly potent win condition utilizing a toss-up between Cosmic Power, Taunt, Roost, Body Press, and Stored Power, bested primarily by scouting, fast Taunt users, and situationally Toxic. It can take advantage of the aforementioned Slowking, Tapu Lele, and Kyurem in order to potentially seize games against unprepared teams.
Drops
The Pokemon that dropped were the same Pokemon that were slated to drop in the last usage post, fit with the same issues that plagued them back then, and potentially to a more egregious extent in a violent metagame filled with Specially Defensive Ground-types and powerful Priority.
The hype initially surrounding Regieleki has greatly diminished, as its inability to force any kind of progress against the tier's Ground-types and its very prediction-reliant nature make its otherwise terrifying attributes a pipe dream in most matchups. Prior to this point, Regieleki has seen some fringe use as a Screens setter for Hyper Offenses, boasting Explosion and Rapid Spin to provide suicidal momentum and ease switch-ins for abusers. However, in this department, it is tremendously outclassed by Tapu Koko which boasts Electric Surge, Taunt, and U-turn, as well as Grimmsnarl for its ability to check Dragapult and utilize Taunt, and Alolan Ninetales's wealth of utility. It just isn't really as great as we once thought it would be.
Pelipper's decreased use represents less a drop of use in itself, but rather a drop of use in the Rain archetype. Rain had quite a bit of hype around it a few months ago, however, the sad truth is that Rain is a volatile archetype, and it detests a lot of recent metagame trends, such as the rise of Kyurem. It is still viable, but the drop in use indicates that it faces a less-than-ideal environment to succeed as much as it used to.
With the recent, increased watch of how Weather teams interact with the metagame, Pelipper has seen a marginal increase, but nowhere near enough to save it from the wrath of the usage stats.
Nidoking has been incrementally falling out of favor, and although it is still a very solid wallbreaker, its frailty and speed tier are catching up with it quite a bit, making it more difficult to operate to quite the same extent as it could a few months ago. It also dislikes the surge in Blissey and Slowking usage in spite of its coverage, and it is sadly setup fodder for most variants of rising star Volcarona. This drop in use isn't too sudden to the point where it downplays Nidoking's place in the tier, but it has been falling bit by bit for a while in spite of this and may show that a drop to UU is inbound.
While these reasons are roughly the same, Slowking and Blissey have fallen in usage in favor of Special walls that are less exploited by Weavile, Dragapult, and Urshifu-R. Other big issues with Nidoking that hold it down are its painful Knock Off weakness--which makes it a poor check to Zeraora--and its prediction-reliant nature making it harder to get value out of without Substitute in an increasingly more hostile metagame, which it can seldom afford right now.
Notable Usage Shifts:
#21 -> #13
Although it had a rough beginning in its brother's shadow, its removal has revealed just how potent Urshifu-R's raw breaking abilities with STAB Close Combat and Surging Strikes are in a metagame that prefers Slowking and is more adverse to the use of Tangrowth and Amoonguss. Notably, it only has one common counter in Toxapex with deterrents like Tapu Fini and Rocky Helmet users, and often needs to be forced out with the use of faster Pokemon. It has been fit on nearly all viable offenses either with a Choice Band or Protective Pads as well as access to U-turn to operate around potential switch-ins and is considered to be one of the better Future Sight abusers in the tier, if not the best. It has risen to become one of the best wallbreakers and offensive pivots in the metagame that every team needs to watch out for.
#31 -> #24
Melmetal had a short plateau earlier in the DLC2 metagame, but its merits as a disruptive tank are becoming of higher value. On top of providing a solidly general-purpose Physical wall with its monstrous bulk against Weavile, access to Thunder Wave and superb coverage not only provides it with a way to take advantage of common Steel-type switch-ins like Corviknight and Skarmory but also give it incredible disruptive abilities in order to support its team and open itself to more wallbreaking opportunities. We have also been seeing the classic Choice Band set mow down many teams, especially with Future Sight and hazard support to overwhelm conventional checks with its terrifying STAB Double Iron Bash.
#59 -> #46
Although not quite OU status, Buzzwole has seen an uptick in use as an offensive check with longevity to Weavile, Urshifu-R, Kartana, Melmetal, and Rillaboom. Its natural bulk allows for it to divvy EVs into its sky-high Attack stat and into Speed, providing a surprisingly potent wallbreaker with a wealth of defensive merits to reinforce teams against Physical wallbreakers. Moreover, with Spikes, great coverage, and Future Sight support, it can be deceptively powerful even without a Choice Band.
Here are the usual questions:
1. What were the most notable increases and decreases, and why do you think these mons are used more/less now?
2. What increases or decreases surprised you the most?
3. Among the mons with increased usage, what sets have you been using and enjoying?
4. Among the mons with decreased usage, what are your favorite sets for those mons?
5. What are your favorite mons to use in the current metagame?
6. What mons do you predict will continue to see increased usage?
7. What mons are you expecting to see a declining usage from?
8. What are some of your favorite cores to use?
9. How do you feel about the metagame?
10. Have you used any of the Pokemon mentioned above? If so, how did they perform for you?
11. Are there any prominent replays from WCoP that you enjoyed and want to share? Any highlights worth discussing?
12: I hope you have a great rest of your day!
If you have any comments, questions, or concerns, feel free to message me or any other moderator! Thanks for reading!
I'd like to talk about an underrated Pokemon in SS OU, Glastrier.
You probably all saw it a bit in the new toy hype of early DLC2, and got disappointed by its horrible speed and bad defensive typing, which is why despite its enormous stats it now resides in NU. While undercut somewhat by its weaknesses, Glastrier has the sheer bulk (physically greater than even Tangrowth) to take some ridiculous stuff, for example:
252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Smart Strike vs 252 HP / 0 Def Glastrier: 354-416 (87.6 - 102.9%) - 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs 252 HP / 0 Def Glastrier: 130-154 (32.1 - 38.1%) - 0.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs 252 HP / 4 SpD Glastrier: 244-288 (60.3 - 71.2%) - guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Shadow Ball does 45% max)
252 Atk Zeraora Close Combat vs 252 HP / 0 Def Glastrier: 188-222 (46.5 - 54.9%) - 9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
80 SpA Slowking-Galar Flamethrower vs 252 HP / 4 SpD Glastrier: 140-166 (34.6 - 41%) - 64.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs 252 HP / 4 SpD Glastrier: 330-390 (81.6 - 96.5%) - guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and trapping damage
Usually not worth attempting that last calc, but since you can always OHKO any Heatran with a (not usually difficult with Tran) tiny bit of chip the possibility is always there should you need it.
Sample set:
Glastrier @ Leftovers
Ability: Chilling Neigh
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Swords Dance
- Icicle Crash
- High Horsepower
With max HP, Slowking can't break a Substitute with Scald, and Blissey can't with Seismic Toss, making both pure setup fodder, and Clefable has unfavourable odds to do so. Glastrier's biggest advantage may be against Corviknight. While its Ice-type counterparts Weavile and Mamoswine are walled, Glastrier can outspeed with the given set and does this:
168+ Def Corviknight Body Press vs 252 HP / 0 Def Glastrier: 124-146 (30.6 - 36.1%) - guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 0 Atk Glastrier Icicle Crash vs 252 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 189-223 (47.2 - 55.7%) - 78.5% chance to 2HKO
Corviknight can only really hope to check Glastrier by coming in and U-turning into a revenge killer, but as U-turn doesn't break the Substitute, predict correctly and any revenge killer has to be able to take a +2 attack, and it can only safely take one +2 Icicle Crash.
I admit the Volcarona weakness also looks off-putting, but I think Glastrier makes up for it with its considerable lack of other counters: Slowbro and Slowking are just setup fodder, and Toxapex is 2HKOed by +2 High Horsepower. Only Taunt Tapu Fini, Volcarona, Iron Defense Skarmory, Rotom-W, Buzzwole, Urshifu-R and for one time Melmetal can switch in and reliably beat it, and almost all take heavy damage in the process.
Glastrier is effective at abusing Slowking and Corviknight primarily, making it a good partner for stuff that doesn't enjoy facing them, and it will almost always trade with something, as the only relevant attacks that can always OHKO it are Choice Band Urshifu-R's Close Combat and Melmetal's Double Iron Bash. It's definitely not a Pokemon that can just be put on any team and expected to do lots, but build with it carefully and it will be rewarding. I believe it's considerably underrated and has a lot more potential than we've used it for so far, it is definitely not only for Trick Room teams.
Max speed Jolly lets you outspeed max speed melmetal, min speed corv and anything trying to speed creep those two. This alone makes me think max speed is best.
Without +speed you at least outspeed 0 speed ttar and clef
You need 72 EVs in spdef and max hp to prevent clef moonblast from breaking a sub
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 72 SpD Glastrier: 84-100 (20.7 - 24.7%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
This leaves you with 180 EVs to pump into speed, which means you're now outsped by 0 speed ttar and clef
or you can just make it careful, which removes the attack boost from adamant but means you don't get outsped by 0 speed ttar and clef
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Glastrier: 84-99 (20.7 - 24.5%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
also max max +def sub gets broken by body press
168+ Def Corviknight Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Glastrier: 92-110 (22.7 - 27.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
How important is all of this? Having used Glastrier a grand total of 0 times, I have no idea lol
Looks like a cool mon tho
Personally, I believe outspeeding Corviknight is quite important, because a better matchup against it is the main reason to be using Glastrier over Weavile, and if you're slower it gets to U-turn on you freely, forcing you into the awkward mindgame of what move to click. If you're faster you can 2HKO it with +2 Crash or force the opponent to hard switch. You need near max speed to outspeed Corv, and I don't think the leftover EVs leave any room for useful defensive benchmarks.
1. What were the most notable increases and decreases, and why do you think these mons are used more/less now?
2. What increases or decreases surprised you the most?
3. Among the mons with increased usage, what sets have you been using and enjoying?
4. Among the mons with decreased usage, what are your favorite sets for those mons?
5. What are your favorite mons to use in the current metagame?
6. What mons do you predict will continue to see increased usage?
7. What mons are you expecting to see a declining usage from?
8. What are some of your favorite cores to use?
9. How do you feel about the metagame?
10. Have you used any of the Pokemon mentioned above? If so, how did they perform for you?
11. Are there any prominent replays from WCoP that you enjoyed and want to share? Any highlights worth discussing?
12: I hope you have a great rest of your day!
If you have any comments, questions, or concerns, feel free to message me or any other moderator! Thanks for reading!
Since no one decided to answer this yet, I'll give it a go
1. I'd say , and . Probably metagame trends similar to during the Zama suspect, was on top of everyone's threatlist because it's a great pokemon
2. This is gonna outside of the post but in the june usage stats, surpassed , and in usage. This is the only one that surprised me considering how exploitable its typing is
3-4. Banded , av , spdef , sd
5. Aside from and since those two are always my favorites
6. Until the new trends come along, probably and
7. Only . I always thought that it's capabilities were overhyped and it really was
8. and . I rarely stray from this defensive core
9. I fucking hate it. I've been playing more of gen seven ou than I do of gen eight over the last two weeks. The mons in the tier are fine but the mechanics of this generation is complete and utter bullshit. Hazard negation, rampant ghosts, free positioning? Fuck all of that. Imma just play the gen I actually enjoyed. Even getting nuked by Garchomp's z outrage or Heatran's z solar beam is far more bearable than seeing fucking Volcarona or Weavile come in fifty times and not die
10. Only Urshifu before I decided to rage quit this generation and it was pretty good. Spamming surging strikes is amusing
11. Nope. Still don't watch tournaments, any tournaments not just pokemon
Hello,
since ausma covered most of the obvious things, I want to dive directly into the sets of the increased Pokemon or generally great Pokemon in the current metagame of SS OU.
This set i find really interesting, as Urshifus major walls are Slowbro and Toxapex, which in all honesty it can just U-turn out on, but Choice Band boosted Thunder Punches will hurt both of Urshifus walls and catches other Pokemon as well, such as Tapu Fini, and also Corviknight, as well as Skarmory. Thunder Punch has a niche for itself, as it does alot to Tapu Fini as shown in the following calc: 252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Fini: 218-258 (77.5 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It can also deal alot of damage to its other walls, which the following calcs will show: 252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 184-218 (46 - 54.5%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 166-196 (42.1 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
This damages Pokemon pretty well and I think Thunder Punch is worthy to try, the set can also be changed to Bulk Up variants with Thunder Punch on more (hyper) offensive oriented teams.
I like this set alot currently, with crippling down its supposed checks, due to Trick and dispose the opposing Pokemons item, such Pokemon are Blissey, Slowking, Galarian Slowking, and Clefable. Therefore Tapu Fini can not only act as an annoyer but furthermore is able to shut down those special walls with - unintentional pun intended - Trick. Taunt is another great way of shutting down such threats and locking them away from using Soft-Boiled, Slack Off, Teleport. Misty Terrain also proves to be a great asset for Bisharp, Weavile, Galarian Slowking, and Dragapult, to keep them unstatused, andf I am personally very happy Tapu Fini got the attraction now. It definitely is a metagame staple now, with checking the aforementioned Weavile, and also top threats such as Urshifu-R and Heatran.
Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 136 SpD / 120 Spe
Calm Nature - Magma Storm - Earth Power
- Taunt - Toxic
This set I think is the best currently, Toxic, Taunt goes so far that it can even reliably deal hefty amount of damages to Slowking, and to a lesser degree Slowbro, with further putting on Pokemon like incoming Hydreigon, Landorus-T, Dragonite, and Gastrodon on a timer, which can be worthful for the Heatran user in the long term. Magma Storm and Earth Power are great tools alongside Taunt to even reliably deal with our favorite starfish Toxapex.
As Urshifu-R, Landorus-T, Weavile, and Garchomp are used pretty frequent and are common Pokemon in the metagame, I think the usage of will continue to rise, perhaps not as much in ladder, but in tournament usage I see Buzzwole as one of the rising stars, with it being able to check the aforementioned Pokemon and it having Roost and plenty of coverage options in Earthquake and Ice Punch it is able to deal with such threats pretty well.
Sure there are Pokemon, which stand out altogether, such as , , and which can easily overload checks and counters in the long haul, but with uprising threats such as Tapu Fini, Dragonite, and the ever present Corviknight as well as Clefable such Pokemon to me don't view as problematic, as most of the mentioned defensive counterplay will end up on most of the teams naturally at the very end, if we view ladder & tour-usage closely.
Performed pretty well for me! I like how they can formulate different things into a team simultaniously, such as Corviknight, Landorus-T, and Galarian Slowbro are able to check a majority of the tier together and with Corviknight and Landorus-T especially they're also able to forme a great defensive counterplay with maintaining momentum via U-turn.
Tapu Fini and Galarian Slowking are also a worthful core, which Id like to highlight here briefly, they check a large amount of the metagame currently and are in my opinion a great defensive backbone to breakers such as Weavile and Dragapult.
this is it from me for now, I hope you had fun reading it and I hope y'all have a great day!
1. What were the most notable increases and decreases, and why do you think these mons are used more/less now?
2. What increases or decreases surprised you the most?
3. Among the mons with increased usage, what sets have you been using and enjoying?
4. Among the mons with decreased usage, what are your favorite sets for those mons?
5. What are your favorite mons to use in the current metagame?
6. What mons do you predict will continue to see increased usage?
7. What mons are you expecting to see a declining usage from?
8. What are some of your favorite cores to use?
9. How do you feel about the metagame?
10. Have you used any of the Pokemon mentioned above? If so, how did they perform for you?
11. Are there any prominent replays from WCoP that you enjoyed and want to share? Any highlights worth discussing?
12: I hope you have a great rest of your day!
If you have any comments, questions, or concerns, feel free to message me or any other moderator! Thanks for reading!
I think has become a great semi-defensive option if you still want to wall / / / / / ... and fear the appearance of , which otherwise would let just be better than buzzwole.
I feel like the rise of Buzzwole is the consequence of the rising presence of Magnezone + Breaker invalidating the usual Iron Defense Corviknight and Skarmory to check those Breakers.
Not only has it the possibility to check those aforementioned threats, but it also has a great offensive utility in the use of Ice Punch / Earthquake and Stab Close Combat which fits well as a way to outburst its checks with the Future Sight + Teleport mechanic.
I think has a great utility in offensive teams for its dark typing, allowing it to switch into Specs using Shadow Ball a few times.
The fact Weavile abuses of the most powerful move in the metagame, Knock Off, and the access to an ice typed priority definitely makes it one of the best progress-maker in the current metagame in combination with Swords Dance and Triple Axel / Icicle Crash.
All this knowing it sponges Hazard damages thanks to Heavy-Duty Boots at such an extent its longevity is quintupled makes it a headache when it comes to keeping your weavile check healthy all along the battle.
I think has proven itself as a great offensive option to check Weavile, Bisharp and so one.
Nothing much to say besides it is to me the best Future Port abuser, this in combination with its Banded U-Turn makes it hard to check only with Slowking / Toxapex as main Water - Fighting resistances.
Its ability, Unseen Fist, makes it really dangerous as Protect users that would like to absorb the Future Sight + Urshifu-R combo are denied, unless you run the ultimate way to solve the Future Sight Equation : Shedinja .
Scizor is an incredible option when it comes to check Kyurem and Tapu Lele as well as acting as a win condition with Swords Dance.
Its great priority in Bullet Punch to punish Weavile or Kyurem and its access to U-Turn in combination with Heavy-Duty Boots is a direct consequence of its rise in OU, being a steel typed pokemon that can deny Magnezone's trap with U-Turn and regaining the momentum at the same time is pretty solid to justify this.
2. Mew
I was really suprised that rose as I never really saw it that many times in SS OU games on the ladder.
The main sets being swindler mew aka Cosmic Power + Stored Power + Body Press or Block + Imprison + Transform Bullshit and Hazard Lead in HO Teams makes me really wonder if it won't drop again later.
I guess it is still used for those fishy sets / playstyles that inconsistanly make the user win games if it has the MU in his favor.
NB : I initially thought Victini would rise instead of Mew
8. Tornadus-T + Slowking and Corviknight +Toxapex .
9. How do you feel about the metagame?
- 20% Spe Def Drop Shadow Ball
- Heavy-Duty Boots on pivot mons such as Zeraora or Tapu Koko that runs Volt Switch / U-Turn
- Knock Off
- Heatran and Magnezone
- Regenerator + Teleport + Future Sight
Now, imagine the whole thing, but you also have to check Tapu Lele, Kyurem, Tornadus-T, Volcarona, Rillaboom, Garchomp...
Truly the worst metagame I've had to play so far, not that I don't enjoy playing it, but when I compare Gen 8 OU to all other Gens in OU, it is the only one that I feel needs to be fixed in some way.
I think the problem in this metagame isn't a particular pokemon or mechanic, but the accumulation of all those "not-banworthy but close to" mechanics / pokemons truly gives me a feeling of "too much".
While I'm pretty sure there isn't even 1 Pokemon or Mechanic that I feel deserve to be suspect tested for instance, I know there is something wrong and it's a feeling of insatisfaction many players complain about since Magearna's and Cinderace's ban.
I think the SS OU council perfectly understand and feel this aspect of the current metagame, but simply the tiering tools in Suspect Tests and Bans may seem to rough to their eyes to be used against any aforementioned mechanic / pokemon I talked about earlier to make things evolve in a great way for this metagame.
What especially alarms me is the significant rise of usage for Buzzwole and Unaware Clefable in OU, aside from the rank S Slowking mainly being it because of Tapu Lele being unbearable to check, same goes for Specs Kyurem's relation with Blissey and Volcarona's one with Heatran .
We reached a point where players are so desperate having to face Magnezone + Breaker Cores they had no choice but using Buzzwole and Unaware Clefable to avoid being 6-0ed by some bullshit set up sweeper such as Cosmic Power Mew or Dragon Dance Dnite / SD Chomp and so one.
Now let's be honest, huge progress were made thanks to previous bans and this metagame's state is in nothing comparable to how unhealthy it was while Zygarde 50% , Magearna or Urshifu-S were there, but I still wonder if it could be better than it is now.
I hope the next pokemon game will relieve me from the pain I actually undergo in this metagame.
10. (Skipped)
11. I follow WCoP to steal some teams occasionally, but don't really have preference for games that were played so far.
: Weavile is a super fun Pokemon to use, with Choice Band being a really solid wallbreaker able to smack the top 3 mons based on usage (Lando-T, Dragapult and Garchomp) and Swords Dance being an absolutely disgusting win condition.
: hey guys look it's Abhi! Urshifu-R is an extremely threatening force right now, even with the mild decline of Future Sight. It's an incredible breaker and pivot, being able to support it's team well with priority and U-turn. Momentum and positioning is a super important aspect of the metagame right now, and Urshifu is excellent at doing it's job.
: Fini went from being a pretty rare pick to holding the meta together, being able to check the two Pokemon above as well as Dragapult, Garchomp and more. From Utility to Calm Mind to even Choice Scarf, Tapu Fini's been a super fun Pokemon to run right now and i'd for sure recommend it!
: Though it's main role has changed to suit WCOP meta, Zeraora is also a really fun Pokemon to use right now. Lately it's been dropping Volt Switch in favour of Bulk Up or Toxic to pose much more of a threat to the majority of the metagame, making it a unique wincon as well as a great form of speed control.
Tornadus-Therian (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 92 SpD / 168 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hurricane
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Taunt
I'm addicted to Taunt Torn-T. It's ability to sit in front of fatter Pokemon, or even set-up sweepers, and preventing them from clicking status moves is amazing. On top of this, Regen + U-turn is crazy when paired with Boots and it makes for a really solid pivot, definitely one of my favourites!
Scizor @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 116 Def / 144 SpD
Impish Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Knock Off
- Swords Dance
- Roost
This set can be found over in Tysonslayer's Set Compendium, would definitely recommend checking it out for cool sets! The bulk lets you take two
Psychic's from Specs Lele and Two Ice Beams from Specs Kyurem, as well as eat 2 Plasma Fist from Zeraora, +2 Knock Off from Weavile and potentially live two unboosted Earthquakes from Leftovers Garchomp. Optimised EV spreads are great, try this one out!
I think the metagame rewards positioning and overload a lot, with offensive and bulky offense teams being very popular right now. The tier and metagame are extremely fun and overall pretty balanced. Even the previously acclaimed "broken" Dragapult is pretty manageable, which is a good sign of a healthy metagame.
I do plan to watch more now that I'm a lot more free, but Finch's games on his YT have all been super fun to watch and being able to hear the thought process of a solid player is both entertaining and helpful, so shoutouts Finchinator
1. What were the most notable increases and decreases, and why do you think these mons are used more/less now?
2. What increases or decreases surprised you the most?
3. Among the mons with increased usage, what sets have you been using and enjoying?
4. Among the mons with decreased usage, what are your favorite sets for those mons?
5. What are your favorite mons to use in the current metagame?
6. What mons do you predict will continue to see increased usage?
7. What mons are you expecting to see a declining usage from?
8. What are some of your favorite cores to use?
9. How do you feel about the metagame?
10. Have you used any of the Pokemon mentioned above? If so, how did they perform for you?
11. Are there any prominent replays from WCoP that you enjoyed and want to share? Any highlights worth discussing?
12: I hope you have a great rest of your day!
1.) For WCoP, Tornadus and Fini are the biggest ones in my opinion. I know many people have mentioned Weavile (who is great rn) but it's been good for a while, seeing some pretty high usage in SPL. Torn and Fini before now were pretty slept on relative to the best mons in the metagame and are now surging again. Torn is likely surging in spite of Weavile's dominance because of its ability to check stuff like Urshifu, Buzzwole, and Lando really well while enjoying a drop in Zapdos usage. Being able to spread Knock Off and keep momentum in this metagame is also amazing because of how big positioning is alongside a seeming drop in Teleport users with Slowking being less favored over Fini and Toxapex and Zeraora dropping Volt on offense a lot. For OLT, Cloyster and TR teams are making the rounds and fucking up a lot of stuff, but it's day 3 of cycle 1 and a bit early to say if these are more than just people tryna cheese their ladder rating higher.
2.) Buzzwole's current surge has been absolutely wild, with it becoming so prominent as a result of people overprepping for Corviknight. It acting as a great Urshifu, Kartana, Bulu, Lando, and Garchomp counter is fantastic for some bulky offenses and a lot of offense since it's also not passive. Item choice on it has been varying a ton throughout STour and WCoP, changing from Lefties to Boots to Helmet to counter various threats and gain more longevity, depending on team structure and general player preference and all these items are great for it. However, people are beginning to prep more for it on the 4th slot for a lot of mons, like in elodin vs tace and trosko vs tony, where Aerial Ace is being elected for on the 4th slot for teams that overrely on Buzz to answer them.
3.) I quite like Weavile, just the standard SD set though. I think it far supersedes the band set in effectiveness and splashability cause boots are amazing. Wide Lens that we saw in Talah vs Leo is pretty dope to make up for Triple Axel 3 hit being around Focus Blast accuracy if the team can afford it.
4.) Skipping
5.) All the standard shit, Lando, Pult, Pex, Torn, etc. The best mons in this meta are so splashable and play so well with each other that branching out can be pretty hard.
6.) Weavile for sure, it's a terror. Think Melmetal may go up a bit more if it gets more exploration since it's kinda unexplored save the pads set that got used recently.
7.) Once people start bringing more Buzzwole counterplay, it'll likely drop as other defensive staples stay good or more unexplored ones rise. That or Fini drops a bit or shifts to a different role if CM sets start seeing their counterplay used on more teams.
8.) Dragapult+Lando, Koko+Dragapult, Kart+Slowking, Buzzwole+SpD Lando, Toxapex+Corv, Fini+Sand Force Hippo
9.) It's pretty fun, but the spar Ghost resists that are currently favored in this metagame save Weavile and maybe Blissey can be really frustrating when having to prep for Dragapult and Aegislash (the latter of which is seeing a good amount of use in OLT). Plus, matchup can be a really big issue, ie some teams just get 6-0d by certain threats like CB Kart while others while get toppled by an NP Torn and you can't do much about it with how much the meta is power crept. Also, speed control that isn't Dragapult or Zeraora is garbage since Scarfers save Fini suck, which is annoying for certain balances.
10.) Not mentioned above but I'll mention it anyway but I really like Terrakion at the moment. Its matchup against a lot of shit on balance is just absurd, it drops stuff like Spdef Hippowdon, Toxapex, Clefable, Zapdos, Steels, Tapu Fini (after rocks), and mixed bulk Corviknight while beating some common offensive mons like Kyurem, Tapu Lele, Urshifu, and Volcarona. Its bulk isn't too bad either in spite of a bad defensive typing. I'll put some calcs below.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 370-437 (93.9 - 110.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hippowdon: 441-519 (105 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 302-356 (99.3 - 117.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 220 Def Zapdos: 382-452 (99.7 - 118%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Tapu Fini: 289-341 (84 - 99.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Landorus-Therian: 265-313 (69.3 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 378-446 (94.5 - 111.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 269-317 (95.7 - 112.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
+1 0 SpA Volcarona Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 272-322 (84.2 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: 253-298 (74.1 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Scizor: 503-593 (146.6 - 172.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
11.) TPP vs ABR was a good watch as was John W vs TDK. In both sets, both players used some more bulky offense / balancey teams that let both sides play out the game and gave room for outplays and a good demonstration of current piloting in the metagame. Plus, neither went on for a super long time, which imo is always a plus in a metagame where we've seen games sometimes go for over 300 turns.
1. What were the most notable increases and decreases, and why do you think these mons are used more/less now?
2. What increases or decreases surprised you the most?
3. Among the mons with increased usage, what sets have you been using and enjoying?
4. Among the mons with decreased usage, what are your favorite sets for those mons?
5. What are your favorite mons to use in the current metagame?
6. What mons do you predict will continue to see increased usage?
7. What mons are you expecting to see a declining usage from?
8. What are some of your favorite cores to use?
9. How do you feel about the metagame?
10. Have you used any of the Pokemon mentioned above? If so, how did they perform for you?
11. Are there any prominent replays from WCoP that you enjoyed and want to share? Any highlights worth discussing?
12: I hope you have a great rest of your day!
1. Always loved the boy, and I'm glad to see he's getting some recognition. Able to wall things like among others is so nice, and with access to roost makes it one of the hardest to beat physical walls, as would need Brave Bird to beat it in a 1v1, sacrificing Body Press making it easier to wall it with other mons.
2. and rising surprised me. With how easy it is to pick up the KO on Urshifu with Rilla, Kart, Zera, or any faster psychic like Latios or Scarf Lele, shocked to see it rise in usage. Mew has been running some really gimmicky sets lately, with stealth rocks being run on only 19% of high ladder mews.
3. I've been quite liking Scarf , as being able to dismantle a blissey in one move is excellent, and it can also demolish more offensive Landos and Garchomps with an unexpected Scarf Moonblast or Hydro Pump.
SD , despite being standard it's just so nice. Despite HDB being controversal nowadays, Weavile utilizes it perfectly to set up a nearly unstoppable SD only able to be truly stopped by and , as really doesn't like taking a +2 Shard.
BULKYRONA , I'm not talking Quiver Dance Roost Safeguard, Im talking Sp.D Defog Volcarona. This thing is hilarious, and can wall all 3 of the special dragons, with Modest Specs Kyurem Draco being a roll on a 2HKO. Pult need Hydro Pump, and Hydreigon is just screwed. The only thing I actually enjoy the existence of HDB on. Flame Body can register Weavile, Rillaboom, and Kartana worthless, making them wallable aswell. Such a funny set, and maybe not the most viable, but one of my favorites.
4. I still think Specs has it's place, despite a ground type being nearly mandatory in the meta, the offensive pressure it has and the ability to force in any ground type at any time to manipulate to your will is great. Regieleki to me is the worst broken mon we've ever seen, as with a ground type in play it's worthless, but if the ground type is gone Eleki becomes the biggest threat by far.
5. These swords of justice are MASSIVELY underrated in my opinion. can set up rocks with it's sash set, or destroy teams with Double Dance, Band, or can clean teams with Scarf. Powerful stabs in the form of Stone Edge and Close Combat, plus coverage like EQ, Zen Headbutt, and priority Quick Attack which Ive used once or twice with decent results.
can deal a lot of damage really quick, with either CM or my favorite Specs Keldeo can take on a surprising amount of the meta. Things like Kyurem who can be hard to deal with are no problem for Keldeo, and despite being a special attacker can destroy blissey with Secret Sword hitting defense and not special defense. Great mons, love em both.
6. without a doubt. Really strong, really fast, great knock off user, priority ice shard, beautiful.
7. Yeah as mentioned in my Q2, Mew just seems to be a gimmicky mon in the OU meta, and I feel like it just wont hold up over time. People may migrate to utility Mew, which is decent, but it's weakness to knock off will hurt that strategy massively, especially with Weavile around.
For the first time ever, Excadrill may actually drop to UU, this thing has been a massive offensive threat in previous generations, but Urshifu, Rillaboom, Kyurem, and Pult have shut that down hard along with walls like Corviknight. UU Sand Teams with Excadrill may end up being too strong though.
8. + REGENERATOR CORES RISE UP! + +
9. Despite how much I love the rise of Buzzwole and Weavile, I do not like the current state of the metagame. Power creep has registered some playstyles completely worthless, specifically stall. Some mons are nearly unwallable like Kyurem and Tapu Lele, as with correct prediction they can take on the entire meta without the need of a setup move, and although I don't think its unhealthy or broken, I just personally do not like HDB as an item.
10. Bulkyrona :)
11. Haven't been an avid WCoP watcher so can't really comment on this one.
5. What are your favorite mons to use in the current metagame?
6. What mons do you predict will continue to see increased usage?
7. What mons are you expecting to see a declining usage from?
9. How do you feel about the metagame?
5. My single favorite set has to be CM Tapu Fini. I love how this thing is able to perform both offensively and defensively; sure, its initial power can be mediocre, but being able to take hits in a pinch from stuff like Weavile thanks to its bulk investment, and as I said in a previous post Fini is the only completely safe switch-in to Heatran. Misty Terrain may shield most from Scald burns, but it still hits a few relevant targets (you love to see a Corv get burned). Tangrowth is another mon I like using a lot, being a great check to stuff like Urshifu, Kartana and Zeraora, and I have taken to using Sludge Bomb on it to better check Rillaboom and pressure most Flying types post-Knock Off. Hydreigon is another mon I had a decently good time with, as the 3 Attack set can smack quite a few slower threats, with STAB Dark Pulse to flinch down Slow twins left and right, Flash Cannon for annoying Fairies and Earth Power for Heatran. While those three attacks are the best, Hydreigon also has some nice hypothetical flexibility, such as Flamethrower for Corv and Rilla or possibly Draco since you barely outspeed Urshifu, plus other sets like NP. It's not the bulkiest thing, but its typing and Roost do allow Hydreigon a few situational but handy resistances.
6. Buzzwole. Everyone loves this thing, its usage has been seeing a steady uptick, would not be surprised to see it rise up next shift.
7. Man, what happened to Excadrill this gen? This thing used to be one of the top dogs pre IoA, and now it's just barely scraping by. Excadrill dislikes almost every recent trend- the bulkier approach a lot of mons take, the high popularity of other Ground types, Boots making hazard removal less necessary, the shift to priority users over naturally fast mons, and being hard-walled by the best defensive mon in the tier.
Another mon I can see dropping off is Mandibuzz; let's not kid ourselves, Mandi is almost entirely outclassed by Corv. Corv has the superior defensive typing and ability, an immunity to Toxic, the freedom to run items besides Boots and can consistently put up offensive pressure (as opposed to the opponent-reliant Foul Play) on top of providing almost everything Mandi can (removal, pivoting and walling). Sure, Mandi has Knock Off, but there are so many other Knock Off users both offensive and defensive, which both outperform Mandi in this department and hurt it directly since it can't afford to take Knock despite its typing because of how much it needs Boots. Plus, Mandi doesn't really wall anything that you couldn't wall with something else; Blissey, Clef and Fini handle Pult, Pex handles Urshifu, Corv handles Lando and Dragonite. Not to mention Mandi is easily forced out by many key attackers, namely Kyurem, Weavile, Koko, Lele, Fini, Zeraora and Clefable (even utility sets). Unless some aspect of the meta changes drastically, I think Mandi will definitely see further decline.
9. In a word, the meta feels- odd. It is very much offensively oriented, but at the same time the pace feels slower than you'd expect in a lot of matches. While I've seen some blame Boots for this, I think that this weird pace is also caused by the dynamic between two other items: Leftovers and Life Orb. Looking at the recommended sets for OU mons, Leftovers currently ties Boots as the item seen on most Pokemon, and most interestingly is seen on sweepers: SD Garchomp, SD Lando, NP Hydreigon, CM Lele and Sand Excadrill all use Leftovers as their de facto item over a boosting item. You gotta admit that's kind of weird. Sure, Leftovers make sense for a bulky sweeper like CM Fini, but Lele isn't really spec-ing into bulk, so why run Leftovers over Life Orb? There seems to be this pressure for offensive mons to stick around longer atm, and I can see 2 reasons for this trend: first, the trickle-down effect of Boots means offensive checks to Boots mons need to last for longer. Since hazards aren't a death sentence for certain mons, their offensive answers would need to be more involved in taking them down, hence the desire to avoid self-whittling while also negating resisted hits. Second, running Leftovers on these attackers makes it easier for offensive teams to go sans Defog. As I previously discussed, OU Defog seems to be at its least popular since its Gen 6 buff, with only a handful of common mons running it, and this is likely due to several possible factors caused by the offensive state of the meta. As such, having sustain on something like Garchomp means it doesn't need to worry as much about hazard chip, and therefore the difficulties potentially fitting Defog onto a team aren't as big of an issue. All of this means that Life Orb has taken a bit of a back seat, as most LO users now either have some way to mitigate the recoil or only use it as a secondary option.
/
Another factor I find interesting about the current meta is the shift in preferred speed control from fast mons (namely Scarfers) to priority users. Atm, OU really only has 3 common Scarfers (Lando, Kartana and Fini), half the number from last gen, despite the prominence of speedy threats like Dragapult, Zeraora, Weavile and Koko, but has 5 common priority users in Rillaboom, Bisharp, Urshifu, Scizor and Weavile. Priority users seem to have a better match-up in the current OU compared to traditional speed control, and there are several advantages to these particular mons: all but Urshifu can double as offensive Knock users, 3 of them have U-turn to pivot into other offensive partners, all of them pack other strong attacks that can make switching into them tricky depending on team structure and save for Urshifu all have a good chance of being able to switch moves. As for Scarf, I'm guessing it's a result of the bulkier side of the meta; after all, Band is still seeing usage on a good number of mons, and Specs provides the single most dominant set in the meta. While those items can get around the move-locking thanks to their power output, the lack of power boosting on Scarf might make being stuck into one move far less desirable. Note that of the 3 Scarfers we do have, one packs Trick, one has pivoting, and one has the highest natural Atk in the meta.
Admittedly I'm only factoring in the proper OU stuff here, but I still think these two trends are notable. The current meta is kind of in a paradoxical state, imo, where most mons want to have respectable damage output but also want to contribute something defensively; I've highlighted this effect in offense, but many defensive staples also show this dynamic, as Slowtwins, Dragonite, Heatran, Ferrothorn, Corviknight and even Pex are able to achieve both parts of this to some extent. There's less emphasis on the team being balance then there is on the individual mons being balance, even with frailer mons like Koko. I definitely wouldn't say this is the worst gen for OU, but while I can't point to anything being definitively wrong I admit the current meta feels a bit off to me with this dynamic.
, 
and 
. Probably metagame trends similar to during the Zama suspect, 
was on top of everyone's threatlist because it's a great pokemon
surpassed 
, 
and 
, spdef 
, sd 
and 
since those two are always my favorites
. I always thought that it's capabilities were overhyped and it really was
and 
and Scizor 
/ ... and fear the appearance of 
, which otherwise would let 
.
, Melmetal 
and Magnezone 
, Cloyster 
and Buzzwole 
and Swampert 
.
or Tapu Koko 
that runs Volt Switch / U-Turn
and Magnezone 
in OU, aside from the rank S Slowking 
being unbearable to check, same goes for Specs Kyurem's 
relation with Blissey 
and Volcarona's 
/ SD Chomp 
, Magearna 
or Urshifu-S 
+
hope everyone has a good day too!
has it's place, despite a ground type being nearly mandatory in the meta, the offensive pressure it has and the ability to force in any ground type at any time to manipulate to your will is great. Regieleki to me is the worst broken mon we've ever seen, as with a ground type in play it's worthless, but if the ground type is gone Eleki becomes the biggest threat by far.
These swords of justice are MASSIVELY underrated in my opinion. 
+ 