Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

[Morkal]

Arctozolt. A niche mon that has unexpectedly taken OU by storm, Zolt has brought itself and Hail to everyone's attention by the fact that almost nothing can safely switch into it. Ground types and Zeraora can't safely come in on its Blizzards, and Low Kick can destroy Ferrothorn and niche Mamoswine. Swampert and Gastro work fine- if Zolt isn't carrying Freeze-Dry (possibly good odds if one is not named okispokis). But, what if I were to tell you that a perfect counter (or at least a consistently good one) does exist, found in the obscure depths of ZU? I present to you:

Seaking @ Assault Vest
Ability: Lighting Rod
252 HP/140 Att/16 SpA/100 SpD; Sassy Nature
-Flip Turn
-Knock Off
-Drill Run
-Scald

You may have many questions, leading with what substances I am currently on. However, Seaking is in a rather unique position to counteract Zolt, shrugging off Bolt Beak and Blizzard being a mere 7HKO with Hail chip, with Low Kick only doing a max of ~25%; even surprise FD only does max 30%. While Seaking's Drill Run isn't quite strong enough to 2HKO reliably, its other options can make up the gap. Losing Boots makes Zolt sweeping a lot harder, Scald can burn and at neutral is just strong enough to break Sub sans Veil (while also preventing Freeze hacks), while Flip Turn allows you to pivot out into an offensive Zolt answer. Between these utility options and Drill Run, however, I've found that Seaking's role is not limited solely to checking Zolt.

While I specifically designed this set to check Zolt, Seaking has proven a surprising amount of worth as a special tank, while being very annoying to OU's scariest special attackers. For example:

0 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 100+ SpD Assault Vest Seaking: 53-63 (14.5 - 17.3%) -- possible 6HKO
140 Atk Seaking Drill Run vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 240-284 (62.1 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

176 SpA Slowking-Galar Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 100+ SpD Assault Vest Seaking: 81-96 (22.2 - 26.3%) -- 10.6% chance to 4HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 100+ SpD Assault Vest Seaking: 111-131 (30.4 - 35.9%) -- 44.8% chance to 3HKO
0- Atk Tapu Koko U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Seaking: 73-86 (20 - 23.6%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 100+ SpD Assault Vest Seaking: 82-97 (22.5 - 26.6%) -- 23.8% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 100+ SpD Assault Vest Seaking: 103-123 (28.2 - 33.7%) -- 0.5% chance to 3HKO
252 Def Magnezone Body Press vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Seaking: 114-135 (31.3 - 37%) -- 80.4% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 100+ SpD Assault Vest Seaking: 259-307 (71.1 - 84.3%) -- not a KO

252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 100+ SpD Assault Vest Seaking: 142-168 (39 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
140 Atk Seaking Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Blacephalon: 250-296 (101.2 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

As you can see, almost every relevant special attacker struggles to break through Seaking at neutral, allowing it to either take an item or gain momentum with Flip Turn. In terms of those attackers, Specs Lele is the only one that OHKOs, and even then only with Psyshock. Seaking doesn't necessarily break any of these besides Heatran and Blacephalon without chip, it's not supposed to; AV Seaking works as a tank that can generate momentum on special attackers while also forcing progress with Scald and Knock Off to chip away at key threats. As such, here's some things to note for teambuilding.


Corviknight is a great partner for AVking; Corv's physical bulk covers AVking's weakness to physical attackers, provides Defog support and blanks king's one weakness, while Seaking blanks both of Corv's weaknesses. Since it fits on most team styles, I'd say Corv is probably King's best partner.

Wish and Grassy Terrain can both help with Seaking's lack of recovery; WishPort Clefable has proved to be a solid partner, also potentially providing Rocks to add onto Seaking's brand of chip. Grassy Terrain can alternatively be used to negate small bits of chip (particularly Hail chip), with Rilla and Bulu both appreciating burns and item loss on opponents, not to mention slow pivoting support. If you can't fit both, Wish is better for defensive teams, Grassy is for more offensive teams.

Frail offensive mons always appreciate slow pivot support, and further appreciate King's blend of utility. This is aided by another benefit of Seaking (which I might be spoiling): the psychological factor. Nobody expects anything from a mon like Seaking, and I've found opponents tend to just give King turns to set hazards or attack it with their special attacker- assumptions that can allow in a terrifying teammate, and with mons like Weavile or Blacephalon that can potentially be game-changing. This makes Seaking a good gluemon on offense teams, especially since they don't care as much about King's lack of recovery.

In terms of other options, Ice Beam can be used if you really want to 2HKO Garchomp, Icy Wind can provide further support for slower breakers, Megahorn can OHKO Weavile (doesn't take +2 Knock though) and Whirlpool allows you to remove Glowking; regardless, you should at least keep Flip and Knock. Overall, Seaking's combo of utility, pivoting, Electric immunity and solid special bulk with AV allow it to serve as a gluemon for any team fearing the likes of Arctozolt, Heatran and Blacephalon. This is a VERY small niche, but one that does exist for the bravest of souls.

I had been meaning to find a proper use for Seaking for a long time now and I'm super stoked that you found one! Such an interesting Pokemon with a great movepool and ability. I also love the specialized EVs, some great stuff. It's also worth mentioning the Seaking set you listed works even better in Rain due to powered-up Flip Turns and Scalds, along with the utility of getting rid of Hail. It can also work in Sun to an extent under the same principle, as Seaking isn't focused on doing damage with its water moves as is, and sun can work to lure in Pokemon like Heatran on the opposing team, allowing mind games to get a potential Drill Run off, killing one of your opponent's most important team members.

I'd also like to add on here that Seaking gets additional great moves depending on specific needs for your team such as Megahorn, Haze, Scale Shot, Curse, Aqua Ring, Throat Chop, and Swords Dance.

 

[ausma]

Arctozolt. A niche mon that has unexpectedly taken OU by storm, Zolt has brought itself and Hail to everyone's attention by the fact that almost nothing can safely switch into it. Ground types and Zeraora can't safely come in on its Blizzards, and Low Kick can destroy Ferrothorn and niche Mamoswine. Swampert and Gastro work fine- if Zolt isn't carrying Freeze-Dry (possibly good odds if one is not named okispokis). But, what if I were to tell you that a perfect counter (or at least a consistently good one) does exist, found in the obscure depths of ZU? I present to you:

Seaking @ Assault Vest
Ability: Lighting Rod
252 HP/140 Att/16 SpA/100 SpD; Sassy Nature
-Flip Turn
-Knock Off
-Drill Run
-Scald

You may have many questions, leading with what substances I am currently on. However, Seaking is in a rather unique position to counteract Zolt, shrugging off Bolt Beak and Blizzard being a mere 7HKO with Hail chip, with Low Kick only doing a max of ~25%; even surprise FD only does max 30%. While Seaking's Drill Run isn't quite strong enough to 2HKO reliably, its other options can make up the gap. Losing Boots makes Zolt sweeping a lot harder, Scald can burn and at neutral is just strong enough to break Sub sans Veil (while also preventing Freeze hacks), while Flip Turn allows you to pivot out into an offensive Zolt answer. Between these utility options and Drill Run, however, I've found that Seaking's role is not limited solely to checking Zolt.

While I specifically designed this set to check Zolt, Seaking has proven a surprising amount of worth as a special tank, while being very annoying to OU's scariest special attackers. For example:

0 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 100+ SpD Assault Vest Seaking: 53-63 (14.5 - 17.3%) -- possible 6HKO
140 Atk Seaking Drill Run vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 240-284 (62.1 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

176 SpA Slowking-Galar Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 100+ SpD Assault Vest Seaking: 81-96 (22.2 - 26.3%) -- 10.6% chance to 4HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 100+ SpD Assault Vest Seaking: 111-131 (30.4 - 35.9%) -- 44.8% chance to 3HKO
0- Atk Tapu Koko U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Seaking: 73-86 (20 - 23.6%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 100+ SpD Assault Vest Seaking: 82-97 (22.5 - 26.6%) -- 23.8% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 100+ SpD Assault Vest Seaking: 103-123 (28.2 - 33.7%) -- 0.5% chance to 3HKO
252 Def Magnezone Body Press vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Seaking: 114-135 (31.3 - 37%) -- 80.4% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 100+ SpD Assault Vest Seaking: 259-307 (71.1 - 84.3%) -- not a KO

252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 100+ SpD Assault Vest Seaking: 142-168 (39 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
140 Atk Seaking Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Blacephalon: 250-296 (101.2 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

As you can see, almost every relevant special attacker struggles to break through Seaking at neutral, allowing it to either take an item or gain momentum with Flip Turn. In terms of those attackers, Specs Lele is the only one that OHKOs, and even then only with Psyshock. Seaking doesn't necessarily break any of these besides Heatran and Blacephalon without chip, it's not supposed to; AV Seaking works as a tank that can generate momentum on special attackers while also forcing progress with Scald and Knock Off to chip away at key threats. As such, here's some things to note for teambuilding.


Corviknight is a great partner for AVking; Corv's physical bulk covers AVking's weakness to physical attackers, provides Defog support and blanks king's one weakness, while Seaking blanks both of Corv's weaknesses. Since it fits on most team styles, I'd say Corv is probably King's best partner.

Wish and Grassy Terrain can both help with Seaking's lack of recovery; WishPort Clefable has proved to be a solid partner, also potentially providing Rocks to add onto Seaking's brand of chip. Grassy Terrain can alternatively be used to negate small bits of chip (particularly Hail chip), with Rilla and Bulu both appreciating burns and item loss on opponents, not to mention slow pivoting support. If you can't fit both, Wish is better for defensive teams, Grassy is for more offensive teams.

Frail offensive mons always appreciate slow pivot support, and further appreciate King's blend of utility. This is aided by another benefit of Seaking (which I might be spoiling): the psychological factor. Nobody expects anything from a mon like Seaking, and I've found opponents tend to just give King turns to set hazards or attack it with their special attacker- assumptions that can allow in a terrifying teammate, and with mons like Weavile or Blacephalon that can potentially be game-changing. This makes Seaking a good gluemon on offense teams, especially since they don't care as much about King's lack of recovery.

In terms of other options, Ice Beam can be used if you really want to 2HKO Garchomp, Icy Wind can provide further support for slower breakers, Megahorn can OHKO Weavile (doesn't take +2 Knock though) and Whirlpool allows you to remove Glowking; regardless, you should at least keep Flip and Knock. Overall, Seaking's combo of utility, pivoting, Electric immunity and solid special bulk with AV allow it to serve as a gluemon for any team fearing the likes of Arctozolt, Heatran and Blacephalon. This is a VERY small niche, but one that does exist for the bravest of souls.

This is a really fun sounding option and a creative use of an otherwise bad Pokemon! While on the subject, I've been experimenting a lot with an Anti-Arctozolt measure of my own, featuring an old gem from back in the early incarnation of the DLC2 meta:


Marowak-Alola @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 248 HP / 72 Atk / 8 SpD / 180 Spe
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Flare Blitz
- Will-O-Wisp / Toxic / Knock Off
- Pain Split

This is a really wacky spread that I designed that works on bulky offenses and balances that are inherently Arctozolt weak. It boasts a Bolt Beak immunity, a Blizzard/Freeze-Dry resistance, and a Low Kick immunity, only weak to Stomping Tantrum (which is a lousy coverage option considering how much it likes Low Kick to pressure Ferrothorn and Kyurem or Freeze-Dry to slap Swampert/Gastrodon). The last slot is utility, which you can customize according to the needs of your team. Toxic lets it 1v1 Volcarona, Will-O-Wisp punishes offensive behemoths like Urshifu-R or Garchomp that think they can switch into you otherwise, and Knock Off is a cool midground option that can mitigate potential passivity granted by its middling attack stat. Pain Split is a cool option that Marowak has at its disposal that I haven't really seen people use much, which lets it take advantage of Flare Blitz switch-ins and not only keep itself healthy in a pinch, but compound chip damage against things like Heatran. Its defensive utility forcing switches lets it fire off Pain Split surprisingly often.

This spread allows Marowak to outspeed and 2HKO Corviknight with Flare Blitz, making it a Stealth Rock setter with the unique quality of beating Corviknight, something only presently shared by Heatran. In fact, since Corviknight tend to run Body Press, Marowak can actually hard switch into Corviknight unlike Heatran, which risks key chip damage in the process. The rest of its EVs are invested into its HP and Special Defense. Outside of beating Arctozolt, it is a Tapu Koko counter, Volcarona counter, Magnezone pivot, and potential Kyurem pivot that pidgeonholes it into Earth Power.

It pairs very well with Toxic Spikes Toxapex, which is really neat with Marowak since it's really good at forcing switches into Pokemon that you would really like to have poisoned on a whim, such as bulky Water-types like Tapu Fini or Tyranitar, and Toxapex also provides a lot of leeway for it by giving it a switch-in against Urshifu-R and Dragapult that attempt to capitalize on it. You can also pair this with Weavile, since Marowak can spread status against its checks fairly reliably and set Stealth Rock to help apply consistent pressure for it. By no means is this a bonafide option and it's still pretty mediocre all things considered, but it can be fun provided you have the support necessary to both capitalize on it and enable it in the first place.

 

[Red Raven]

Interesting EV spread. I’ve always found the original 252 HP / 12 or 0 Sp Def investment to be wanting in this metagame, so I’ll try this spread too to see if it better helps Milotic to tank special hits.

My experience has been the same as yours - Milotic works in walling/countering what it needs to wall/counter in OU. Pairing Milotic with a dedicated wish passer such as specially defensive Clefable or Blissey will usually help to reduce Milotic’s reliance on recover.

That ev spread isn't exactly the most optimal to be honest. I was just trying to tweak it and anything from around 170-196 hp evs with the rest dumped in spdef is just to improve the odds against Blacephalon

Earlier in the day, I've been pairing Milotic up with Tapu Bulu since Bulu can fix all the issues Milo has. Moistshifu, Garchomp, grasses and electrics. That cuts down everything but smart strike Kartana. I've just been building trash teams to see how the idea works and the two actually make a great pair since the terrain allows Milotic to stand its ground against Garchomp. Aside from its ability to deal with Moistshifu, Bulu also isn't instantly afraid of Garchomp's fire moves unlike Rilla which makes the pairing a lot better. Although having said this, the teams I made thus far is too trashy but the idea isn't half bad. Those two just blanks nearly the entire tier and Bulu appreciates the flip turns

Hail is still an issue for this core so that presents another challenge to solve but it isn't exactly that bad in the grand scheme of things since while it is common, hail is not on every team and it's still only the first day of trying

 

[SLDR]

This is a really fun sounding option and a creative use of an otherwise bad Pokemon! While on the subject, I've been experimenting a lot with an Anti-Arctozolt measure of my own, featuring an old gem from back in the early incarnation of the DLC2 meta:


Marowak-Alola @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 248 HP / 72 Atk / 8 SpD / 180 Spe
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Flare Blitz
- Will-O-Wisp / Toxic / Knock Off
- Pain Split

This is a really wacky spread that I designed that works on bulky offenses and balances that are inherently Arctozolt weak. It boasts a Bolt Beak immunity, a Blizzard/Freeze-Dry resistance, and a Low Kick immunity, only weak to Stomping Tantrum (which is a lousy coverage option considering how much it likes Low Kick to pressure Ferrothorn and Kyurem or Freeze-Dry to slap Swampert/Gastrodon). The last slot is utility, which you can customize according to the needs of your team. Toxic lets it 1v1 Volcarona, Will-O-Wisp punishes offensive behemoths like Urshifu-R or Garchomp that think they can switch into you otherwise, and Knock Off is a cool midground option that can mitigate potential passivity granted by its middling attack stat. Pain Split is a cool option that Marowak has at its disposal that I haven't really seen people use much, which lets it take advantage of Flare Blitz switch-ins and not only keep itself healthy in a pinch, but compound chip damage against things like Heatran. Its defensive utility forcing switches lets it fire off Pain Split surprisingly often.

This spread allows Marowak to outspeed and 2HKO Corviknight with Flare Blitz, making it a Stealth Rock setter with the unique quality of beating Corviknight, something only presently shared by Heatran. In fact, since Corviknight tend to run Body Press, Marowak can actually hard switch into Corviknight unlike Heatran, which risks key chip damage in the process. The rest of its EVs are invested into its HP and Special Defense. Outside of beating Arctozolt, it is a Tapu Koko counter, Volcarona counter, Magnezone pivot, and potential Kyurem pivot that pidgeonholes it into Earth Power.

It pairs very well with Toxic Spikes Toxapex, which is really neat with Marowak since it's really good at forcing switches into Pokemon that you would really like to have poisoned on a whim, such as bulky Water-types like Tapu Fini or Tyranitar, and Toxapex also provides a lot of leeway for it by giving it a switch-in against Urshifu-R and Dragapult that attempt to capitalize on it. You can also pair this with Weavile, since Marowak can spread status against its checks fairly reliably and set Stealth Rock to help apply consistent pressure for it. By no means is this a bonafide option and it's still pretty mediocre all things considered, but it can be fun provided you have the support necessary to both capitalize on it and enable it in the first place.

Here is a different version of alolawak I made some time ago, with full explanation. i'm happy to see and share these convergent ideas, much like with the zapdos posts above.
If you don't want to read that, basically this alolawak can switch into arctozolt fairly reliably and has maximum pain split value, while still dishing out powerful attacks. that set can still fit stealth rock or a status move in place of bonemerang too.

here's set and spread

Marowak-Alola @ Thick Club
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 8 HP / 232 Atk / 236 SpD / 32 Spe
Careful Nature
- Poltergeist
- Fire Punch
- Bonemerang (or Earthquake)
- Pain Split

 

[Morkal]

Alright so for once, I won't be talking about a niche non-OU Pokemon, I'd like to talk about my current favorite Pokemon to use in OU that's actually placed OU (very few based on my posts, I know), and specifically, a set that I've found to be absolutely wonderful these days that's a bit different than the conventional version of this set.

Tapu Lele @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Energy Ball
- Thunderbolt
- Psychic​

Scarf Lele has been an absolute godsend for so many of my teams for two reasons. Fast, strong Fairy offense is phenomenal, while Psychic terrain to block priority is wonderful, and boosted Psychics to deal with Toxapex are always a plus. You're probably wondering "why aren't you running Focus Miss or Psyshock?" Simple, the accuracy fails way too much. I leave dealing with Steel types to my other teammates (like Heatran, who is one of my favorite Lele partners), and Psyshock I found I was only clicking it on Blissey, and I have partners that can take care of Blissey way better anyways, and I don't feel like getting my Lele hit by a status move.

I've found that the combination of Energy Ball and Thunderbolt has actually been serving me way better, catching things like Hippowdon, Swampert, Coviknight, the Slowtwins, and Tapu Fini off guard.

252 SpA Tapu Lele Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 258-304 (61.4 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Tapu Lele Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Seismitoad: 496-588 (119.8 - 142%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Since it's making a comeback now)
252 SpA Tapu Lele Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Swampert: 304-360 (75.2 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Tapu Lele Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 236-278 (59.8 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (same with Energy Ball)
252 SpA Tapu Lele Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 158-188 (39.5 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Tapu Lele Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Tapu Fini: 148-176 (43 - 51.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Tapu Lele Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 134-158 (34 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (same with Energy Ball)

As you can see, a good number of these Pokemon have to have max HP and Special Defense investment in order to avoid a 2HKO. Thunderbolt and Energy Ball together actually have good prediction synergy, as most don't expect the two moves to be run together. If you use Thunderbolt, people are going to assume you don't have Energy Ball and play their Ground types carelessly around it, meaning you'll have an opening to do absolutely massive damage.

While most of the time you're still gonna be clicking Moonblast and Psychic, I feel as though this moveset alteration for typical Scarf Lele sets is definitely worth consideration and I've had vastly more success with it thanks to the mindgames and opportunities that it opens up for my team builds (give this thing Aura Sphere already, cowards).

 

[Red Raven]

While on the topic of Lele, another set I've been enjoying with it is

Tapu Lele @ Expert Belt
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Moonblast
- Calm Mind
- Thunderbolt
- Psychic / Psyshock

​

I actually got this idea when playing some gen seven and trying to predict our most hated durian to burn with hp fire is a massive pain in the ass so I just went with this. With no hidden power, which is good, might as well fry some metal birds. It doesn't do the speed control or revenge killing scarf lele does but it can bluff a scarf since its psychics won't sting that much. The expert belt is just to ensure that after a calm mind, you fry Corvibirb out of the sky. Oh, and after a calm mind, you live Dragapult's shadow ball from full. As the above post said, better leave dealing with steel types to your teammates because Lele has zero aim

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele: 194-230 (69 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[ironwater]

Alright so for once, I won't be talking about a niche non-OU Pokemon, I'd like to talk about my current favorite Pokemon to use in OU that's actually placed OU (very few based on my posts, I know), and specifically, a set that I've found to be absolutely wonderful these days that's a bit different than the conventional version of this set.

Tapu Lele @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Energy Ball
- Thunderbolt
- Psychic​

Scarf Lele has been an absolute godsend for so many of my teams for two reasons. Fast, strong Fairy offense is phenomenal, while Psychic terrain to block priority is wonderful, and boosted Psychics to deal with Toxapex are always a plus. You're probably wondering "why aren't you running Focus Miss or Psyshock?" Simple, the accuracy fails way too much. I leave dealing with Steel types to my other teammates (like Heatran, who is one of my favorite Lele partners), and Psyshock I found I was only clicking it on Blissey, and I have partners that can take care of Blissey way better anyways, and I don't feel like getting my Lele hit by a status move.

I've found that the combination of Energy Ball and Thunderbolt has actually been serving me way better, catching things like Hippowdon, Swampert, Coviknight, the Slowtwins, and Tapu Fini off guard.

252 SpA Tapu Lele Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 258-304 (61.4 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Tapu Lele Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Seismitoad: 496-588 (119.8 - 142%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Since it's making a comeback now)
252 SpA Tapu Lele Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Swampert: 304-360 (75.2 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Tapu Lele Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 236-278 (59.8 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (same with Energy Ball)
252 SpA Tapu Lele Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 158-188 (39.5 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Tapu Lele Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Tapu Fini: 148-176 (43 - 51.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Tapu Lele Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 134-158 (34 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (same with Energy Ball)

As you can see, a good number of these Pokemon have to have max HP and Special Defense investment in order to avoid a 2HKO. Thunderbolt and Energy Ball together actually have good prediction synergy, as most don't expect the two moves to be run together. If you use Thunderbolt, people are going to assume you don't have Energy Ball and play their Ground types carelessly around it, meaning you'll have an opening to do absolutely massive damage.

While most of the time you're still gonna be clicking Moonblast and Psychic, I feel as though this moveset alteration for typical Scarf Lele sets is definitely worth consideration and I've had vastly more success with it thanks to the mindgames and opportunities that it opens up for my team builds (give this thing Aura Sphere already, cowards).

I agree with Thunderbolt being a great option on Tapu Lele because, even if Slowking fell down in usage, Corviknight is still a very common Tapu Lele (pseudo) answer and Thunderbolt can pressure it efficiently. However, I don't understand why you would use Energy Ball. I think you just rather have Psyshock or Focus Blast on this slot and I will try to explain why I think so.

So first, about the Pokemon you've mentionned, I don't think defensive Seismitoad is making a comeback, last time I saw one (a non-Swift Swim one) was during the Dracovish era and this Pokemon has too much flaws compared to other bulky Water types to become a common choice. You don't even need to OHKO it, as it can't recover its health and Psychic from Scarf Tapu Lele will easily 2HKO. About Swampert, it's true that Energy Ball is your best move against it, but here again, Swampert is extremely rare in this metagame, it can't heal well (only have Lefties) and already take a lot of damage on Psychic and even more on Psyshock (which almost 2HKO). As for Hippowdon, the thing is that Psychic does almost the same amount of damage, because STAB + terrain boost is almost a *2 multiplier.

Calcs for what I said above

252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Seismitoad in Psychic Terrain: 241-285 (58.2 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Swampert in Psychic Terrain: 186-219 (46 - 54.2%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon in Psychic Terrain: 252-297 (60 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The last point could be generalized, by saying that super effective Energy Ball is not useful against something that doesn't resist Psychic as both will do almost the same damage. Thus, Energy Ball can only be useful against Pokemon weak to Grass and resisting Psychic moves or Pokemon with a double Grass weakness not weak to Psychic moves. Swampert and Seismitoad fall indeed in that category, but as they can't recover health efficiently, and are not very common, you don't need Energy Ball for them. There is a another Pokemon that falls in this category and you didn't mentionned it, it's Gastrodon. This thing is probably the only Pokemon against which having Energy Ball on Tapu Lele (only Scarf Lele cause Specs Lele destroys him) can be useful, because it can take 2 Scarf Psyshock and Psychic but get destroyed by Energy Ball. It also has Recover, which means that you won't beat it with reapeated Psychic. Now, Gastrodon is still a niche pick, and unless you are expecting someone to bring it and want to lure it, it's not enough to justify the use of Energy Ball on Tapu Lele. Moreover, Gastrodon needs a very specific mixed spread to be able to avoid the 2HKO on both Psychic and Psyshock which means that you will still be able to beat most of them if you have these two moves.

Calcs on Gastrodon

252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 104+ SpD Gastrodon in Psychic Terrain: 183-216 (42.9 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 156 Def Gastrodon in Psychic Terrain: 190-225 (44.6 - 52.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

As for the Pokemon weak to Energy Ball and resisting Psychic, most of them are Water types already threatened by Thunderbolt like the Slowtwins or to some extend Tapu Fini which remove your terrain. We can also consider Tyranitar here, but you have Moonblast for it.

Now, why are Psyshock or Focus Blast useful. Psyshock threaten most Special walls, Gastrodon is an example but the greatest one is Blissey. As for Focus Blast, even if it's rather unreliable, it's actually extremely useful to beat Heatran, Melmetal and other bulky Steel types, especially on a Scarf set that will do very little damage to them with Psychic.

By the way, I also read your post about Silvally and I found it very interesting. I also think that Silvally could have some potential in OU, mainly because Multi-Attack is a very good move since it was buffed.

 

[Morkal]

I agree with Thunderbolt being a great option on Tapu Lele because, even if Slowking fell down in usage, Corviknight is still a very common Tapu Lele (pseudo) answer and Thunderbolt can pressure it efficiently. However, I don't understand why you would use Energy Ball. I think you just rather have Psyshock or Focus Blast on this slot and I will try to explain why I think so.

So first, about the Pokemon you've mentionned, I don't think defensive Seismitoad is making a comeback, last time I saw one (a non-Swift Swim one) was during the Dracovish era and this Pokemon has too much flaws compared to other bulky Water types to become a common choice. You don't even need to OHKO it, as it can't recover its health and Psychic from Scarf Tapu Lele will easily 2HKO. About Swampert, it's true that Energy Ball is your best move against it, but here again, Swampert is extremely rare in this metagame, it can't heal well (only have Lefties) and already take a lot of damage on Psychic and even more on Psyshock (which almost 2HKO). As for Hippowdon, the thing is that Psychic does almost the same amount of damage, because STAB + terrain boost is almost a *2 multiplier.

Calcs for what I said above

252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Seismitoad in Psychic Terrain: 241-285 (58.2 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Swampert in Psychic Terrain: 186-219 (46 - 54.2%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon in Psychic Terrain: 252-297 (60 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The last point could be generalized, by saying that super effective Energy Ball is not useful against something that doesn't resist Psychic as both will do almost the same damage. Thus, Energy Ball can only be useful against Pokemon weak to Grass and resisting Psychic moves or Pokemon with a double Grass weakness not weak to Psychic moves. Swampert and Seismitoad fall indeed in that category, but as they can't recover health efficiently, and are not very common, you don't need Energy Ball for them. There is a another Pokemon that falls in this category and you didn't mentionned it, it's Gastrodon. This thing is probably the only Pokemon against which having Energy Ball on Tapu Lele (only Scarf Lele cause Specs Lele destroys him) can be useful, because it can take 2 Scarf Psyshock and Psychic but get destroyed by Energy Ball. It also has Recover, which means that you won't beat it with reapeated Psychic. Now, Gastrodon is still a niche pick, and unless you are expecting someone to bring it and want to lure it, it's not enough to justify the use of Energy Ball on Tapu Lele. Moreover, Gastrodon needs a very specific mixed spread to be able to avoid the 2HKO on both Psychic and Psyshock which means that you will still be able to beat most of them if you have these two moves.

Calcs on Gastrodon

252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 104+ SpD Gastrodon in Psychic Terrain: 183-216 (42.9 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 156 Def Gastrodon in Psychic Terrain: 190-225 (44.6 - 52.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

As for the Pokemon weak to Energy Ball and resisting Psychic, most of them are Water types already threatened by Thunderbolt like the Slowtwins or to some extend Tapu Fini which remove your terrain. We can also consider Tyranitar here, but you have Moonblast for it.

Now, why are Psyshock or Focus Blast useful. Psyshock threaten most Special walls, Gastrodon is an example but the greatest one is Blissey. As for Focus Blast, even if it's rather unreliable, it's actually extremely useful to beat Heatran, Melmetal and other bulky Steel types, especially on a Scarf set that will do very little damage to them with Psychic.

By the way, I also read your post about Silvally and I found it very interesting. I also think that Silvally could have some potential in OU, mainly because Multi-Attack is a very good move since it was buffed.

Thank you for the compliment on my Silvally post! The Sword Dance variant is so much fun to use, Multi-Attack really is an incredible move, and Silvally's additional fantastic options like Parting Shot really do give it a great and very usable place in OU.

You know, looking at what you've posted here, I think I agree with you in regards to Psyshock. I'm gonna try throwing that on over Energy Ball again to see if it really makes that much of a difference. I absolutely cannot stand Focus Miss though, I cannot tell you how many matches I've lost the mid-game because of that move being so unreliable, I'd still much rather have Thunderbolt as an option over it.

 

[airfare]

yo i saw ABR use this in olt playoffs earlier today and it invigorated me

Reflect Corviknight is an interesting tech on fatter teams that achieves two purposes over Iron Defense:

1. It has a unique role alongside Unaware users like Clefable and Quagsire (and any other bulky teammates that would appreciate the ability to eat a +1.5x hit at worst instead of a +2 hit), letting them pivot in after using Reflect on something like Bisharp, Garchomp, or Kartana and soak physical hits a lot more easily.
2. Unlike Iron Defense boosts, which Sacred Sword bypasses, Reflect lets Corviknight survive interactions against Kartana by either staying in on attacks or pivoting into a teammate if it continues to set up.

 

[Morkal]

I wanted to quickly talk about an OU staple set variant I've been having a lot of really great matches with as of late before I get back into testing some other things I've been working on.

Slowbro @ Choice Specs
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Flamethrower
- Psychic / Psyshock
- Yawn​

You're probably thinking, "Specs Slowbro, with that coverage? Why? Also, why Yawn? Also, why not a higher BP Water move? No Future Sight, no Teleport? Your set makes no sense; stop playing FFS."

It's simple, this mon causes absolute mind games, and one bad play from your opponent can result in shutting down some of your opponent's key threats while dishing out immediate damage to possible switch-ins. Let's compare the damage output with the typical Physically Defensive set with the Specs set to get an idea here of the difference in damage.

0 SpA Slowbro Future Sight vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 192-228 (63.1 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Slowbro Future Sight vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 141-166 (35.7 - 42.1%) -- 90.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Slowbro Future Sight vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 163-193 (51.4 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Slowbro Future Sight vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 64-76 (19.8 - 23.5%) -- possible 5HKO

Let's see what happens when we instead forgo the teleport switching and immediately remove a key threat and add potential coverage based on prediction.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Slowbro Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 296-350 (97.3 - 115.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Slowbro Psychic vs. 252 HP / 120 SpD Toxapex: 272-324 (89.4 - 106.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO (For the Specially Defensive variants that have been cropping up lately, kudos to BoomFantastic for helping me with some EV work and teambuilding stuff, along with providing me some additional information)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Slowbro Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 220-259 (55.8 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

So now you're wondering, "alright, the immediate damage output is higher, but you're removing the utility of Futureport in favor of coverage and Yawn?" Let's go into why Yawn, I feel, is absolutely one of the best moves in OU right now (I might make a post going into more detail about it in the future). Yawn, like Futureport, forces switches but rather than taking damage turns later, it threatens to cripple certain mons entirely, allowing you more opportunities to get one of your Sub Roost Pokemon set up, or if you're in the late game, get your sweeper ready to clean house. Since this utility forces switches, you're essentially compression the forced switching of Futureport into one move, freeing up additional space for coverage. Speaking of coverage, let's talk about Flamethrower.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Slowbro Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 216-256 (54 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Slowbro Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Ferrothorn: 372-440 (105.6 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Slowbro Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 244 SpD Melmetal: 280-330 (68.1 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Slowbro Flamethrower vs. 128 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Melmetal: 170-200 (38.3 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Slowbro Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor: 448-528 (130.6 - 153.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Many Pokemon aren't prepared for Flamethrower's raw power thanks to Specs, and it can net some surprise KOs or absolutely maim a potential switch in. The reason for Scald is specifically that burn chance for certain Pokemon. This works well because of Regenerator. I also slotted in Psyshock specifically because of the slow switch to the previously noted Specially Defensive Toxapex sets, but that's all up to you and what you find more reliable.

Also, since some were asking on Showdown, I'm currently testing another hyper niche Pokemon in OU. I will eventually draft up a massive post about it as I do with all the other niche Pokemon once I have more concrete results.

In Progress

*cough*

*cough*

 

[Ctann]

Hey everyone , reporting live from the ladder on the latest trends.

Personally I’m a fan of themed teams and grass types, and the latest team is a “grounded assault” one.

• All team members must not resist flying type attacks
• No flying or levitating types permitted
• only one ground resist is allowed (otherwise it’s impossible to rank without any ground resist in OU!)
• at least half the team must have a STAB that is resisted by the flying type
• No STAB that is super effective against flying.
• after seeing that my suggestions about Volcarona, rillaboom, and Kartana didn’t really stick, I set out to use all 3 of them, and prove their efficacy, this is a topic I’d like to explore starting with Kartana in particular

Conkeldurr is highly OU viable RN!

this team has lead me to discover that Conkeldurr really is useful right now with bulk up (older sets use 4 attacks, however that doesn’t pull weight against offensive teams), but that’s a topic for the VR thread.

here’s the team.

Hide

https://pokepast.es/0178356f6279dcaa

there’s a few replays too, here’s two that focus a little on 252 SpD kartana

—

The first replay is a good example of the utility versus hail

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1411124924-xbqikcbqw2hdr14w9x4fkf9tet8hftwpw

the second replay shows how the leftovers can tick you back out of important thresholds. As any experienced conk user will know, you really need Kartana sub 80 to revenge it.. so it was challenging for them to play around using prediction, whilst I was rewarded with healing.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1410030518-rr57mq0x2aglsmq755tam1dcpuogjw5pw

here’s a game of the team losing, obviously flying types are the biggest problem, here’s an example of a team running two of them. I needed one of the three end game hurricanes to miss to win, all 3 hit :(

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1411726183

—

the Kartana set is my favourite due to its matchup verse offense, so far it pulls its weight very well except for against specs fini , as demonstrated by another 1900s player (“clawed out”, rank 2, I’m at rank 5 as I write this) that completely disrupted everything.

—

Also some evidence of success, current rank at time of writing

 

[Finchinator]

We have reached a point where cries for tiering changes are at a low-point, but metagame evolution is still transpiring at a respectable pace. I believe this is a testament to a mostly favorable — or at the very least playable — metagame state, which the survey results confirm, but I personally see a few topics worth discussing nonetheless.

Arctozolt — yes, the PU Pokemon — has been devastating with the BoltBeam dual STAB combination, proving tough to contain when it has double the speed under Hail. Would I ban it at this instant if given a choice? Probably not, but counterplay is limited and applications of Hail are getting more impressive, consistent, and standardized with each adaptation. This phenomenon has been going on for weeks now and I am unsure if we have reached the tip of the iceberg yet. There are Pokémon like Ferrothorn, PDef Magnezone, SDef Hippowdon, and bulky Excadrill that stand a chance at checking it while being justifiable regardless and then there are opportunities like Swampert/Gastrodon handling variants without Freeze Dry to further diminish it, but a lot of in-game counterplay to Arctozolt involves predicting around it, which is not ideal or consistent. We will have to keep an eye on this as we move forward.

Another topic I believe deserves more discussion both in general and right now is Magnet Pull. Magnet Pull is not necessarily broken, but it does toe the line on being uncompetitive like other trapping abilities can be. With Magnezone’s applications multiplying and it becoming a regular presence in the tier, we have seen many Corviknight, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, etc. go poof. The inability for these Pokemon to switch is, like other trapping dynamics, troublesome and the advantages of these Pokemon being removed are innumerable. Obviously this is a lot less clear-cut than Arena Trap or Shadow Tag, to the point where I am not even sure we are ready to discuss this as a community yet, but I do think it is still a pretty awkward dynamic in our metagame and one of the ugliest tiering discussions that we will eventually need to have as Magnezone remains a regular in SS OU.

 

[AM]

Ban Arctozolt, save OU.

Keep Magnet Pull discussion to Policy Review imo, it gets pretty cringe to have mini suspect threads in this thread. New games coming out soonish, the meta can probably sit otherwise.

 

[Finchinator]

Keep Magnet Pull discussion to Policy Review imo, it gets pretty cringe to have mini suspect threads in this thread. New games coming out soonish, the meta can probably sit otherwise.

Well yes and no. If we ever want to formally act on it, absolutely. I was pretty careful with my wording for a reason though — right now, to be fully transparent, I cannot see anything happening anytime in the immediate future. But it is nice to plant the seed in people’s heads and see how they react from there. Maybe people like the idea or maybe they do not. These things will never happen without a catalyst though, so some discussion in moderation within reason is ok when we are this early in the talking phase.

 

[AM]

I think the Magnet Pull discussions go in circles all the time which is why I think they're not very productive in this forum as is a lot of random suspect talks that happen here. Magnet Pull vs Magnezone, equating Magnet Pull to STAG while ignoring the entirely different dynamics between the two, etc. You can probably put it into whatever survey you guys put out next though.

 

[Red Raven]

Another topic I believe deserves more discussion both in general and right now is Magnet Pull. Magnet Pull is not necessarily broken, but it does toe the line on being uncompetitive like other trapping abilities can be. With Magnezone’s applications multiplying and it becoming a regular presence in the tier, we have seen many Corviknight, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, etc. go poof. The inability for these Pokemon to switch is, like other trapping dynamics, troublesome and the advantages of these Pokemon being removed are innumerable. Obviously this is a lot less clear-cut than Arena Trap or Shadow Tag, to the point where I am not even sure we are ready to discuss this as a community yet, but I do think it is still a pretty awkward dynamic in our metagame and one of the ugliest tiering discussions that we will eventually need to have as Magnezone remains a regular in SS OU.

This. This right here is exactly what I've been saying a few months ago. Magnet pull remaining unbanned while arena trap and shadow tag are banned is inconsistent. If trapping abilities are uncompetitive then I don't see why magnet pull should remain. Being left completely vulnerable when your non Heatran steel type is gone is just ridiculous. Now that Lele or Weavile is just gonna have a free real estate. Just the reasoning of 'Magnezone only traps one type' is not good enough imo

Although, having said that, maybe a more interesting discussion would be about trapping in general, including the moves. I personally think trapping moves are fine since it can easily go sideways if you trap the wrong stuff but when you do trap something, it's basically worse than arena trap and shadow tag combined especially when you consider that Heatran and Fini are such effective trappers

 

[RaikouLover]

Another topic I believe deserves more discussion both in general and right now is Magnet Pull. Magnet Pull is not necessarily broken, but it does toe the line on being uncompetitive like other trapping abilities can be. With Magnezone’s applications multiplying and it becoming a regular presence in the tier, we have seen many Corviknight, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, etc. go poof. The inability for these Pokemon to switch is, like other trapping dynamics, troublesome and the advantages of these Pokemon being removed are innumerable. Obviously this is a lot less clear-cut than Arena Trap or Shadow Tag, to the point where I am not even sure we are ready to discuss this as a community yet, but I do think it is still a pretty awkward dynamic in our metagame and one of the ugliest tiering discussions that we will eventually need to have as Magnezone remains a regular in SS OU.

Personal opinion the set Magnezone has to use to effectively trap 3 Pokémon in OU is pretty shitty at doing anything else so there is a significant opportunity cost to it. Team slots really are at a premium this generation and Magnezone is dead weight in games without those 3 Pokémon. It is the ultimate match up fish but at least there is some sort of strategy built behind it.

 

[Finchinator]

I think the Magnet Pull discussions go in circles all the time which is why I think they're not very productive in this forum as is a lot of random suspect talks that happen here. Magnet Pull vs Magnezone, equating Magnet Pull to STAG while ignoring the entirely different dynamics between the two, etc. You can probably put it into whatever survey you guys put out next though.

Seeing as the co-tier leader and OU moderator went out of his way to specify Magnet Pull, the ability, I do not think anyone will be discussing Magnezone as a potential suspect, rather than as the focal Pokemon with the ability, without having their post deleted or getting a prompt response to stop before going any further. Not too worried about that — we have people in place to handle any issues.

And yes, I will advocate for including it in the survey, but doing so can only be done after there is some public acknowledgement or post worth referencing about the topic — it is only fair to the public that way and I have tried to operate that way about any non-repeat survey additions all generation.

 

[SLDR]

We have reached a point where cries for tiering changes are at a low-point, but metagame evolution is still transpiring at a respectable pace. I believe this is a testament to a mostly favorable — or at the very least playable — metagame state, which the survey results confirm, but I personally see a few topics worth discussing nonetheless.

Arctozolt — yes, the PU Pokemon — has been devastating with the BoltBeam dual STAB combination, proving tough to contain when it has double the speed under Hail. Would I ban it at this instant if given a choice? Probably not, but counterplay is limited and applications of Hail are getting more impressive, consistent, and standardized with each adaptation. This phenomenon has been going on for weeks now and I am unsure if we have reached the tip of the iceberg yet. There are Pokémon like Ferrothorn, PDef Magnezone, SDef Hippowdon, and bulky Excadrill that stand a chance at checking it while being justifiable regardless and then there are opportunities like Swampert/Gastrodon handling variants without Freeze Dry to further diminish it, but a lot of in-game counterplay to Arctozolt involves predicting around it, which is not ideal or consistent. We will have to keep an eye on this as we move forward.

Another topic I believe deserves more discussion both in general and right now is Magnet Pull. Magnet Pull is not necessarily broken, but it does toe the line on being uncompetitive like other trapping abilities can be. With Magnezone’s applications multiplying and it becoming a regular presence in the tier, we have seen many Corviknight, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, etc. go poof. The inability for these Pokemon to switch is, like other trapping dynamics, troublesome and the advantages of these Pokemon being removed are innumerable. Obviously this is a lot less clear-cut than Arena Trap or Shadow Tag, to the point where I am not even sure we are ready to discuss this as a community yet, but I do think it is still a pretty awkward dynamic in our metagame and one of the ugliest tiering discussions that we will eventually need to have as Magnezone remains a regular in SS OU.

On Arctozolt I'm with you Finch, at the very least we should be looking at it with close attention and monitor the meta trends and how well can the meta adapt to it. stab bolt beam + low kick is just that dangerous unless you're lightning rod alolan marowak, and even then some people run stomping tantrum. thankfully anything not bolt beak or supereffective blizzard is weak but hail adds that 6% to every damage calculation which is very annoying. basically, we keep watching the meta develop with attention to zolt.

on magnet pull, I can see the points of people wanting it gone, but I don't feel as strongly for it to be banned. In my opinion it's a very interesting mechanic that brings a layer of strategy to the team builder, battle planning and the battle itself. I don't think it's bad, but baning non-esclusive abilities can be problematic if we don't set a criteria before (if there is then sorry, I'm just unaware of it). Probopass and Golem-A also get Magnet Pull and aren't nearly as effective as Magnezone, so when we think about banning Magnet Pull, can we screw up these completely fine Pokèmon only because magnezone is very good at it? Would we be complaining about magnet pull if there was no magnezone to be good with it?
If we look at it in this way, it's really hard for me to ever think about banning Magnet Pull.
HOWEVER the actual criteria used here is "competitiveness", so we only need to come to an agreement about magnet pull being uncompetitive or not and act accordingly; there's no need to wait on this discussion (not saying we should suddenly right now, just saying in theory this discussion can happen anytime). this does not take into account any one pokèmon whatsoever (otherwise we should look at magnezone), so every pokèmon with magnet pull is treated "fairly". ultimately, coherent tiering policy is important and I'll agree with anything that mantains coherence.

Also, trapping moves are fine. they either are status move so blocked by taunt and stuff, or weak attacks with imperfect accuracy (unlike heatran's but magma storm is even more inaccurate), but most importantly the ability to trap with these moves is ACTIVE and requires setup, as small as it may be.
Going off the criteria of "uncompetitiveness" and considering my last sentence, I would start thinking about this topic by posing these questions: "is passively trapping an X number of pokemon uncompetitive? Is it important how many and/or how relevant the trappable pokemon are? If yes, when does many becomes too much and when does relevant becomes way too important?" and relate them to magnet pull.

 

[pulsar512b]

Seeing as the co-tier leader and OU moderator went out of his way to specify Magnet Pull, the ability, I do not think anyone will be discussing Magnezone as a potential suspect, rather than as the focal Pokemon with the ability, without having their post deleted or getting a prompt response to stop before going any further. Not too worried about that — we have people in place to handle any issues.

Some new players may be confused by this- here's why magnet pull is the potential target, not magnezone (based on prior precedent):
Back in., i forget which gen we started banning arena trap and shadow tag, we tried banning Dugtrio alone, but people started using diglett and trapinch to similar uses, showing that the broken element was really the ability. In this case, there's a even clearer example of a pokemon that could easily take over Magnezone's role in Magneton, which was used in some old gens to trap Skarmory. (Worth noting that however, it lacks body press and thus struggles to trap ferrothorn. you could prolly do it with iron defense+tbolt+substitute and just spamming tbolt until paras or something gets lucky).

 

[MrMonochromatic]

I want to start by stating that my opinion does not lift weight since I haven´t had the opportunity to play in tournaments and im in mid-ladder. I have always been more of an expectator that has fun -and rage- laddering.

Trapping abilites as far as I know have always been controversial.

The problem with trapping -as far as I have seen through the gens are the openings the elimination of a Pokemon brings to the opponent. This has been seen as Dugtrio in BW, killing TTar and Heatran to give opportunities to Sun teams to strive; and Wobbufet in ADV, forcing a trade-off, a mon that has virtually no counters.

Magneton and Magnezone have been the only ones that has stay so far, and I think its because their trapping is limited to Steel types. As everyone knows, some of the top Mons of every gen have been Defensive Steels like Skarmory(ADV), Ferrothron(BW) and Corviknight(SS) or Offensive Mons like Scizor(XY), Heatran(DPP) and Melmetal (SS)

I think the concern should be "What types of threat does Magnezone opens among us?" like it was the case with Dugtrio in every gen bar Gen 3.


Magnezone Smogon 6v6 Set according to Smogon
Magnezone @ Leftovers/Chople Berry/Air Balloon
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 172 HP / 252 Def / 84 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Thunderbolt
- Substitute

Magnezone mainly supports pokemon like Arctozolt, Excadrill, Rillaboom, Kartana or Dragonite

Magnezone can:
-Trapped Bisharp, but has to not get chipped by SR
+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 172 HP / 252+ Def Magnezone: 267-315 (82.4 - 97.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Def Magnezone Body Press vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bisharp: 352-416 (129.8 - 153.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO


- SetUp and trap Ferrothorn lacking Body Press.

If they pack Body Press like Ferrothorn on Gloking-Urshifu sample team it will be tougher, but most of the time Magnezone will come on point
144+ Def Ferrothorn Body Press vs. 172 HP / 252+ Def Magnezone: 118-140 (36.4 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

2 252+ Def Magnezone Body Press vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Ferrothorn: 226-268 (64.2 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


- Deal around 50% to Specially Defensive Corvi
0 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Corviknight: 216-254 (54 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Which later gets killed by SuperPower Rillaboom or gets U-turned

252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Superpower vs. 252 HP / 32+ Def Corviknight: 177-209 (44.2 - 52.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

- Depending on Item, can effectively trap Melmetal.I think this is the biggest one, because Magnezone is usually faster than Melmetal, letting it pick the Iron Defense and supporting Arctozolt. Chople Berry lets it take Superpower while Air balloon lets it freely grab another Iron Defense.
I havent tried this combination (Arctozolt + Magnezone) -yet- and I lack replays, but I have been able to trap Melmetal with Magnezone.



Melmetal Magnezone Matchup Interactions.

Assuming Melmetal enters after letting the opponent pick a kill.

Lefties Magnezone vs Protect Melmetal

252+ Atk Melmetal Earthquake vs. +2 172 HP / 252+ Def Magnezone: 172-204 (53 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
-
+2 252+ Def Magnezone Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 258-304 (62.7 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Lefties Magnezone vs AV Melmetal

116 Atk Melmetal Earthquake vs. +2 172 HP / 252+ Def Magnezone: 140-168 (43.2 - 51.8%) -- 10.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Def Magnezone Body Press vs. 128 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 258-304 (58.2 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Chople Berry Magnezone vs Three Attacks TWave Melmetal


252+ Atk Melmetal Superpower vs. +2 172 HP / 252+ Def Magnezone: 102-122 (31.4 - 37.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock


+2 252+ Def Magnezone Body Press vs. -1 40 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 386-456 (91.6 - 108.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO



If Magnezone entering in a double switchin it can scout the attack with Sub and switch since most of the time, Magnezone is faster. If the opponent lacks EQ, then it can just boost defense and theres your Melmetal.


Magnezone biggest weaknesses could be his need to setup in order to act effectively or that in some matchups it mostly be -at best- checking Rillaboom or at worst death fogger to bring a pokemon.
This are some thoughs i wanted to share with u. Now if u excuse me i will go to finish my uni homework and go back to lurk the forums again.

----------------------------
Even after this, my stance is that Magnet Pull is not uncompetitive. Or why is it that now is uncompetitive whenwe have had it since Gen 3?

 

[Endrism]

Another topic I believe deserves more discussion both in general and right now is Magnet Pull. Magnet Pull is not necessarily broken, but it does toe the line on being uncompetitive like other trapping abilities can be.

I don't believe Magnet Pull is unbalanced, as a lot of steels have good moves to hit Magnezone, or can use pivoting moves. Magnezone with Magnet Pull I believe is balanced and a good way to punish people who rely too heavily on their bulky steels during a match. It has severely nerfed Skarm, but sometimes that happens. If we are talking the ability to trap the opponent, I believe Heatran is a much bigger concern. Being able to just click Magma Storm on anything that isnt another Heatran for the base damage plus trapping damage putting on more chip than it has any right to do to resistances, plus the fact that a fire type can successfully 1v1 a bulky water being able to Taunt Pex and Fini and wear them down is ridiculous. The thing can take on Blissey by Magma Storming, Taunting, then using Toxic and its over. Heatran is reliable to a point of being a little much to me, and while it has counterplay like Splashifu, you still cant switch in without taking up to 35% from the hit, and an extra 12% from the chip dealing almost half of your HP from a resisted not invested hit. A 100 Power STAB Trapping move with utility in Taunt, Toxic, and Protect along with coverage with Earth Power makes Heatran borderline uncompetitive, and is the only thing I would consider possibly being too much for the meta.

0 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: 102-120 (29.9 - 35.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after trapping damage

 

[MrMonochromatic]

I don't believe Magnet Pull is unbalanced, as a lot of steels have good moves to hit Magnezone, or can use pivoting moves. Magnezone with Magnet Pull I believe is balanced and a good way to punish people who rely too heavily on their bulky steels during a match. It has severely nerfed Skarm, but sometimes that happens. If we are talking the ability to trap the opponent, I believe Heatran is a much bigger concern. Being able to just click Magma Storm on anything that isnt another Heatran for the base damage plus trapping damage putting on more chip than it has any right to do to resistances, plus the fact that a fire type can successfully 1v1 a bulky water being able to Taunt Pex and Fini and wear them down is ridiculous. The thing can take on Blissey by Magma Storming, Taunting, then using Toxic and its over. Heatran is reliable to a point of being a little much to me, and while it has counterplay like Splashifu, you still cant switch in without taking up to 35% from the hit, and an extra 12% from the chip dealing almost half of your HP from a resisted not invested hit. A 100 Power STAB Trapping move with utility in Taunt, Toxic, and Protect along with coverage with Earth Power makes Heatran borderline uncompetitive, and is the only thing I would consider possibly being too much for the meta.

0 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: 102-120 (29.9 - 35.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after trapping damage

From my stance I agree to a certain extend. While not broken, Magma Storm is a REALLY GOOD Trapping move. But a 75% offensive move with only 8PP seems -somewhat-balance to my eyes imo. But ig thanks to Heatran popularity is that Air Balloon Heatran has come as the best Heatran Counter, which is really funny and in other Pokemon, this would be reason enough to ban

But Heatran needs a good teamwork too: Has many common weaknesses and is not the fastest pokemon. Heatran is as good as the player or the team, even if sometime can single-handlely kill one or two StallTeams (I forgot here the existence of Shred Shell)

 

[Ctann]

I feel like Heatrans magma storm is more uncompetitive than magnet pill, since it is a very low drawback move.

removing steels doesn’t have the same impact that removing any Pokémon has (shadow tag in previous gens) or removing grounded EQ weak Pokémon in the era where rain was already top dog.

If your steel type is that imperative to stopping a Rillaboom, then you have the option of shred shell. Otherwise most steels mentioned are supposed to have more utility than just stopping a list of Pokémon that conveniently enjoy magnezone support.

the use of a magnezone is essentially using two Pokémon in the attempt for one of them to pull weight, whilst the other awkwardly sits there unless it is needed, and usually that’s only a against slower stall teams, which often use shed shell anyway.

Usually Melmetal and Ferrothorn will drag a magnezone to sub 60%, so the main two that really are impacted by it are skarmory and corviknight.

heatrans magma storm on the other hand is definitely a move that toes the line of “how is this allowed in OU”! It has so little drawback and puts the user in full control of momentum and direction of game flow every time it lands successfully. It’s very easy to get critical switch ins into their KO thresholds, like a Slowking sub 80% (47% before regenerator) suddenly becomes fodder for a Tapu lele. The only true way to deal with magma storm is having a team that gives little opportunities for heatran to come in. Things like dragonite and Slowking can be worked around.

Magnet pull from magnezone and other users by comparison is relatively harmless. Steels can still fulfil their purpose and can use options to get away from magnezone.

example: Users act like corviknight is the only thing on their team standing between them winning a game against Rillaboom/Kartana/Garchomp/lele/bisharp/etc or losing, if you’re in that situation your problem is certainly not magnezone. I deliberately am using a grass spam team without magnezone right now and corviknight is definitely not even in the discussion of most problematic threats to the team.

arctozolt being too good for OU is definitely something that makes no sense to me. It doesn’t compare to any previously banned threats or even specs dragapult in it’s prime a few months ago.

 

[Cratersmash]

But a 75% offensive move with only 8BP seems balance to my eyes imo.

I don't understand this as Magma Storm has 100 BP