Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

[ProNooob]

What are your guys’ opinions on offense teams centered around nidoking goltres and buzzwole? Ive seen at least two (not including mine) which is more than normal for a not established corr. Especially since two of them are UU.

 

[Wraks]

Haven't really been playing since the kyurem suspect but I wanted to comment on some of these sets.

Blacephalon @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 232 HP / 4 Def / 20 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Shadow Ball
- Flamethrower
- Substitute

I have experimented with (and seen others use) this before, I do think that scarf/specs is probably better, but it can mess up bulky teams. I do want to suggest an alternative sub CM set that I liked, specifically for dragpult/blissey cores.

Blacephalon @ Kasib Berry
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 232 HP / 4 SpA / 32 SpD / 240 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Shadow Ball
- Flamethrower
- Substitute

The difference here are the stat spreads and the item choice of kasib berry. If you are trying to actively bluff choice specs/scarf, then having heavy duty boots does not necessarily work in your favor (although obviously it is good regardless); if hazards are up and I notice a blacephalon not taking damage, I would assume it is some kind of boosting set, personally. Kasib berry helps continue the bluff more, and also helps against drapapult (with the given EV spread).

Now for the EVs, I do not know if your spread was aiming for any specific benchmarks (aside from HP to hit a good substitute number), but these EVs are specifically meant to help take a hit from dragapult. 240 in speed is good for almost all purposes; it gets you to 341 instead of the max 344, and to my knowledge there are no relevant pokemon that you no longer outspeed by dipping a little, both at +0 and at +1 (exceptions are other blacephelons, scarfed or not, in which case you miss out on a speed tie but hopefully you at least have a substitute, and liepard, which I assume you never have to face lol). And likewise unless there is a specific target I am unaware of, the 16 less Sp Attack evs give a negligible power drop.

This dip in speed and special attack allows for 232 HP and 32 special defense. This benchmark is great because it means that after a calm mind, with a kasib berry, you are guaranteed to survive a timid specs shadow ball from dragapult after both substitute and stealth rocks ( 252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. +1 232 HP / 32 SpD Kasib Berry Blacephalon: 127-151 (41.6 - 49.5%)) (barring crit of course). So, if your opponent does have blissey and tries to teleport into timid specs dragapult, you can sub on the switch to blissey, calm mind on teleport, and live the specs shadow ball at 1HP as long as they don't crit. This puts your +1 Sp. Att./+1 Sp. Def./+1 Speed blacephon behind a sub against the rest of their team, probably netting at least one more KO.

So, while this set is a bit more situational, it has a very specific utility that I think is worth noting, and I have had some success with it previously (it is inconsistent, but in my opinion that was more due to CM blacephelon in general being less optimal overall than specs or scarf, and not because of this specific CM spread).

(NOTE: if you do want to try this you should try to scout a little just to make sure the Pult is timid specs and not modest specs, but I know sometimes that's impossible lol)

Volcarona @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 252 HP / 156 Def / 100 SpD
Bold Nature
- Flamethrower
- Will-O-Wisp / Whirlwind
- Roost
- U-turn

Not much to say here except that I have encountered this before and it can be quite annoying, definitely has a niche even if 4/5 times phys def quiver dance is probably better.

What are your guys’ opinions on offense teams centered around nidoking goltres and buzzwole? Ive seen at least two (not including mine) which is more than normal for a not established corr. Especially since two of them are UU.

Not sure about buzzwole, I think that one is just glued onto the other two because it is a generally good phys def wall, but I do think G-Moltres and Nidoking (especially with superpower/focus punch) have decent synergy as a special offensive core (my love for fighting coverage nidoking is what prompted me to comment on this in the first place). The main special walls which annoy a nidoking packing fighting coverage are bulky psychics (og-slowking, AV g-slowking to some extent, bulky mew, and some less common stuff like reuniclus); G-Moltres obviously takes advantage of all of these guys. On the other hand, Nidoking can lure in and destroy G-Moltres counters like blissey and tyranitar with fighting coverage, and can general soften up special walls so that G-Moltres can attempt a sweep later.
(EDIT: having written this, I can see why you may attach buzzwole to this randomly if nidoking is lacking fighting coverage, just to have that fighting type to help with moltres and take care of blissey for both of them, but I feel this may be more in the territory of "three pokemon which have some notable but unexceptional synergy" and not "three member core", but these concepts are on a continuum and where you draw the line is up to you I guess)

 

[Mimikyu Stardust]

What are your guys’ opinions on offense teams centered around nidoking goltres and buzzwole? Ive seen at least two (not including mine) which is more than normal for a not established corr. Especially since two of them are UU.

Its really good, nidoking and gmolt are amazing special attacker, one as a breaker and one as a set up sweeper (add lele to that as a cleaner) and buzzwole can help them break the special walls that are weak on the physical side and vice versa. additionally, buzzwole also helps with some weakness like the weakness to Weavile, Shifu, and Kart that can threaten the 2.

i actually made an rmt with those 3 exact mons alongside Lele, Heatran and Fini and they did wonders and have gotten me some success in OST


https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...and-version-2-peak-top-8-ladder-1938.3696044/
theres the link if you want to look for .

 

[TURBODERP]

Is there any unconventional/underrated Pokemon or Movesets that you think are more viable than people think?

Forget Timid-Speed-Boosting or Adrenaline Orb sleeper (but still potentially great on the right teams!) Kartana, this is Defensive Defog Kartana


Kartana @ Leftovers / HDB / Rocky Helmet
Level: 100
Impish Nature
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 44 Def / 112 SpD / 100 Spe
- Sacred Sword
- Toxic / Knock Off / Leaf Blade
- Defog
- Synthesis

Why use this at all: Kartana's got Ferrothorn's incredible typing and while it's got bad HP and terrible Special Defense, it has access to two things Ferrothorn would love: Synthesis and Defog. Due to its massive attack, this Kartana set doesn't need any investment to still hit plenty hard, while full defensive investment lets Kartana wall and Defog on common hazard setters that aren't carrying Fire-type attacks (non-Fire move-Garchomp, Landorus-T, Ferrothorn, non-Fire-move Clefable). This Kartana set is also able to check dangerous physical threats like Weavile and Melmetal, especially with Synthesis giving it longevity.

EV spread & item choice: 100 Speed lets Kartana beat out max Speed Timid Heatran by 1 point. For defensive calcs, check the big section below but the short version is that the Defense investment (44 EVs and Impish nature) let Kartana handle threats like Weavile and Landorus-T, and even scout out other Kartana and Melmetal. The Special Defense investment actually makes a difference since Kartana's got such low base SpDef: this investment lets this Kartana check certain special attackers like Magnezone and Tapu Koko, and even take a Choice Specs Dragapult's Draco Meteor and cripple or OHKO it back with Knock Off.

Leftovers is good in general, especially on defensive sets. Kartana resists Stealth Rock, so while Heavy Duty Boots are still an option to avoid the chip from hazards, they're not mandatory. Rocky Helmet is also an option to really annoy Weavile, Ferrothorn, and even opposing Kartana.

A whole bunch of calcs

On the physical side


0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 44+ Def Kartana: 103-123 (31.9 - 38.1%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 44+ Def Kartana: 135-160 (41.9 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

-1 0 Atk Kartana Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-Therian: 85-101 (22.2 - 26.4%) -- 12.2% chance to 4HKO

Defensive Landorus-T doesn't even reliably wear down Synthesis PP since EQ is a 4HKO, and while Knock Off is annoying, Kartana still has recovery and is immune to Toxic so Landorus-T can't as easily wear it down. Offensive Lando-T, while much less common, is still a scary threat, especially with the ability to slot in Gravity or even Smack Down to nail Corviknight and Skarmory with a supereffective EQ...but Kartana doesn't really care that much. Of course, this Kartana can't really do a lot of damage back quickly, which would only really be an issue in the 1v1 vs an SD Landorus-T. This is a case where Toxic is a good option on this Kartana set because it guarantees Landorus-T can't stay in as long and attempt to spam SR at the cost of comparatively minor chip (although losing Lefties on Lando-T is actually a big deal in the long-run).



4 Def Ferrothorn Body Press vs. 252 HP / 44+ Def Kartana: 102-122 (31.6 - 37.8%) -- 0.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Def Ferrothorn Body Press vs. 252 HP / 44+ Def Kartana: 136-160 (42.2 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 130-154 (36.9 - 43.7%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ferrothorn: 172-204 (48.8 - 57.9%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Ferrothorn's combination of Iron Barbs, Knock Off, and Leech Seed make it really annoying for a lot of Defoggers. But Kartana is immune to Leech Seed and has Synthesis to shrug off Body Press, which is only really a drain on PP from PhysDef Ferrothorn. Meanwhile, Kartana can Defog freely or even threaten a 2HKO with Sacred Sword and a bit of chip on SpDef Ferrothorn.



0 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 44+ Def Kartana: 94-112 (29.1 - 34.7%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 44+ Def Kartana: 114-135 (35.4 - 41.9%) -- 82.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 44+ Def Kartana: 228-268 (70.8 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+3 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 44+ Def Kartana: 285-336 (88.5 - 104.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Garchomp Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 44+ Def Kartana: 200-236 (62.1 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 114-135 (31.9 - 37.8%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Obviously Fire Blast obliterates you, but Defensive Garchomp can't touch you while you Defog away any SR it puts up and potentially Toxic it, and offensive Garchomp needs to be +4 to actually OHKO you without Fire Fang.

is one of the best offensive threats in the tier. Very little can switch into the CB set, let alone repeatedly, but this Kartana set is one of the better answers, especially since Low Kick does nothing (seriously, less than Ice Shard) as Kartana weighs very little. SD Weavile is hard-walled and importantly, Kartana threatens to OHKO back with Sacred Sword.

252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 44+ Def Kartana: 157-186 (48.7 - 57.7%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 44+ Def Kartana: 198-234 (61.4 - 72.6%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Low Kick (20 BP) vs. 252 HP / 44+ Def Kartana: 44-54 (13.6 - 16.7%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 44+ Def Kartana: 129-156 (40 - 48.4%) -- approx. 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 44+ Def Kartana: 261-309 (81 - 95.9%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

If it's not switching into CB Weavile landing a 3-hit Triple Axel, this Kartana set walls all Weavile.



252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 44+ Def Kartana: 144-172 (44.7 - 53.4%) -- approx. 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Melmetal Superpower vs. 252 HP / 44+ Def Kartana: 214-254 (66.4 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Def Melmetal Body Press vs. 252 HP / 44+ Def Kartana: 132-156 (40.9 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Melmetal: 136-160 (28.6 - 33.7%) -- 97.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

CB Superpower OHKOs, but that's it (and Kartana outspeeds and can Synthesis up vs non CB-Superpower). And against the rare-but-scary (Sub)Body Press+ID/AA set, Kartana always is able to break the Sub with Sacred Sword (which ignores any boosts!) and can get good chip because even a +2 Body Press doesn't OHKO this Kartana.



252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 44+ Def Kartana: 264-312 (81.9 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (25% to OHKO after SR)
252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 44+ Def Kartana: 176-208 (54.6 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 172-204 (66.4 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You can scout even Banded Kartana, which is nice. Of course, you only 2HKO back, but still.

On the special side


252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Kartana: 306-360 (95 - 111.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Kartana: 248-292 (77 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Kartana Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragapult: 296-350 (93.3 - 110.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

Amazingly, Specs Dragapult's Shadow Ball is a roll to OHKO, while Specs Draco Meteor never OHKOs even after SR. This is actually pretty big since Dragapult usually can OHKO Kartana easily with Draco Meteor and even 2HKO with Hydro Pump.



0 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Kartana: 152-179 (47.2 - 55.5%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Kartana: 184-217 (57.1 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 208-246 (53.8 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

If Heatran gets cheeky and tries to catch someone else on the switch with Earth Power instead of Magma Storm, or go for Stealth Rock, you can outspeed (the speed EVS beat out Timid Heatran by 1 point) and 2HKO with Sacred Sword. If Heatran's running Protect and thinks you're Banded/Scarf, you can try some mind games with Defog too, but any Fire move will obviously obliterate Kartana.



252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Kartana: 226-267 (70.1 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Kartana: 114-134 (35.4 - 41.6%) -- 78.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Def Magnezone Body Press vs. 252 HP / 44+ Def Kartana: 112-134 (34.7 - 41.6%) -- 73.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Def Magnezone Body Press vs. 252 HP / 44+ Def Kartana: 224-264 (69.5 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Magnezone: 158-186 (56 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Normally Magnezone can obliterate Kartana locked into the wrong move (Leaf Blade/Smart Strike) even with Thunderbolt, or potentially threaten to set up with Iron Defense and Body Press. However Kartana outspeeds and doesn't care about ID boosting due to Sacred Sword which can 2HKO Magnezone.



252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Kartana in Psychic Terrain: 267-315 (82.9 - 97.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Kartana: 217-256 (67.3 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Kartana: 145-171 (45 - 53.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Kartana in Psychic Terrain: 179-211 (55.5 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Kartana Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 149-176 (53 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 207-244 (73.6 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Normally Specs Lele could OHKO Kartana with Moonblast, and even Scarf Lele had a ~60% shot to OHKO Kartana with Psychic after SR. While you obviously drop to any Focus Blast, this Kartana can survive 1 attack of anything else Scarf or Specs Lele throws out and thus, in a pinch, scout the set and get some big damage in (assuming Knock Off/Leaf Blade is being run over Toxic). And if Scarf Lele's locked into Moonblast (not the most likely but still), this Kartana set isn't even 2HKO'd usually!



252 SpA Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Kartana in Electric Terrain: 144-170 (44.7 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

If it's not Specs Koko, this Kartana can stall out the Electric Terrain. Toxic is great here because otherwise Koko walls you.



+1 252 SpA Nihilego Meteor Beam vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Kartana: 270-318 (83.8 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Nihilego Power Gem vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Kartana: 180-213 (55.9 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Nihilego Power Gem vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Kartana: 240-283 (74.5 - 87.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Nihilego Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Kartana: 135-159 (41.9 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nihilego: 198-233 (55.1 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

In an emergency, this Kartana can survive any 1 hit from even a boosted Nihilego. Obviously not recommended, but useful if Nihilego's been chipped beforehand since even this Kartana's uninvested Sacred Sword will 2HKO it.

Moveset: Synthesis, Sacred Sword, and Defog are basically mandatory (Defog is the only potential exception). Synthesis gives reliable recovery and thus enables the defensive potential of this set. Sacred Sword is important to let Kartana hit a lot of important threats mentioned in the calcs section such as Weavile, Ferrothorn, Heatran, Magnezone, and Garchomp. Defog is amazing because this Kartana can repeatedly come in on common hazard setters like Ferrothorn, Landorus-T, and non-Fire-move-TankChomp and get rid of hazards while threatening them out.

The last move is tricky and likely team dependent. Toxic is amazing because it puts common hazard setters like Garchomp and Landorus-T on a timer, while also being great against the usual Kartana switchins...like Landorus-T and Garchomp, but also things that even this Kartana set really doesn't like, such as Buzzwole, Torn-T, Slowbro, Volcarona, Zapdos, and Blacephalon. Knock Off is another great option because Kartana often forces switches and ya'll know why Knock Off is great already. Leaf Blade is another option, which covers things like Tapu Fini and Slowbro, but it's generally worse than the prior two options because this set isn't meant to break things like the usual Kartana sets.

 

[ProNooob]

Its really good, nidoking and gmolt are amazing special attacker, one as a breaker and one as a set up sweeper (add lele to that as a cleaner) and buzzwole can help them break the special walls that are weak on the physical side and vice versa. additionally, buzzwole also helps with some weakness like the weakness to Weavile, Shifu, and Kart that can threaten the 2.

i actually made an rmt with those 3 exact mons alongside Lele, Heatran and Fini and they did wonders and have gotten me some success in OST


https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...and-version-2-peak-top-8-ladder-1938.3696044/
theres the link if you want to look for .

This team was one of the three I mentioned.

 

[WMAR]

So this might sound outlandish as heck but i wanna spark some discussion and speculation on what would happen if OU suspected Power Construct. The only legal user is Zydog and its not good. Forced to run full speed or die to anything. Im curious on what everyone thinks

 

[ProNooob]

So this might sound outlandish as heck but i wanna spark some discussion and speculation on what would happen if OU suspected Power Construct. The only legal user is Zydog and its not good. Forced to run full speed or die to anything. Im curious on what everyone thinks

M8 just let your zydog get low enough and coil spam. IMO its stats are still too high for OU, but that was said about kyurem b in gen 5 so

 

[Moyashi]

So this might sound outlandish as heck but i wanna spark some discussion and speculation on what would happen if OU suspected Power Construct. The only legal user is Zydog and its not good. Forced to run full speed or die to anything. Im curious on what everyone thinks

I don't think it would ever be worth it. Since it wouldn't be that hard to use Zydog's poor bulk in a way to easily get it into that 50% and become complete.

Anyways on a more general note, it has been roughly two months since Kyurem left the tier. So I am pretty curious what people think of things nowadays. Honestly the tier feels really good right now. Plenty of room for teambuilding diversity and it genuinely feels like there is a bunch of potential strategies that are just waiting to be discovered.

So, how does everyone frel about the metagame nowadays? What kind of builds have you been experimenting with? Any teams you have used that you have particularly enjoyed?

 

[ProNooob]

I don't think it would ever be worth it. Since it wouldn't be that hard to use Zydog's poor bulk in a way to easily get it into that 50% and become complete.

Anyways on a more general note, it has been roughly two months since Kyurem left the tier. So I am pretty curious what people think of things nowadays. Honestly the tier feels really good right now. Plenty of room for teambuilding diversity and it genuinely feels like there is a bunch of potential strategies that are just waiting to be discovered.

So, how does everyone frel about the metagame nowadays? What kind of builds have you been experimenting with? Any teams you have used that you have particularly enjoyed?

Pult is sucky for teambuilding

 

[theotherguytm]

So this might sound outlandish as heck but i wanna spark some discussion and speculation on what would happen if OU suspected Power Construct. The only legal user is Zydog and its not good. Forced to run full speed or die to anything. Im curious on what everyone thinks

*Clicks Substitute*
ZyGod is so bulky that OU-level attackers struggle to 3HKO it without an Ice move, letting it Rest to wall out the entire tier. Even without that, the SpD SubCoil set that already was bonkers on 50% is fully functional on Complete, together with all the last-move mixups that make checking it reliably impossible. The only real change is you have to pivot it in first.

 

[uiopman]

Now that the post-Kyurem meta seems to have gotten comfortable, viability slate is done, and we all seem to be settling into the new SSOU, how about a question to spice things up?

Is there any unconventional/underrated Pokemon or Movesets that you think are more viable than people think?

Since this forum just got over a massive discussion on it, let's leave Terrakion out of this one lol

As usual, I'll start:

View attachment 407516
Volcarona @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 252 HP / 156 Def / 100 SpD
Bold Nature
- Flamethrower
- Will-O-Wisp / Whirlwind
- Roost
- U-turn

I put a set like this up on the heat forums months and months ago, and since then it's been refined a bit. Introducting BULKarona.

Do you want a way to shut down Weavile immediately one way or another? Do you also want a mon that can eat 2 Shadow Balls from Pult at the same time? Need a status spreader? Phaser? Pivot? Well this monster can be that. In previous generations the thought of a non QD, bulky variant of Volcarona was a joke, a meme, but with Heavy Duty Boots and a lack of Greninja, this thing can actually play a really good role on a team. Swaps in on +0 Weavile and wins every time, as even if it sets up to +2 on the swap, a +2 Knock cannot kill this Volcarona, and Flamethrower is an easy KO.
Don't even think about Triple Axle unless you want to get burned in an instant. It completely hard walls Rillaboom as Grassy Glide, Wood Hammer, Non STAB Knock, Superpower, all pathetic. 2 Pult Shadow Balls don't kill and allow for some nice roost action. Does Dragonite or Garchomp think they can set up? No matter, click Will-O-Wisp or Whirlwind and say bye bye to your boosts. Double Iron Bash? Insignificant. In a pinch scenario you can even swap it in on Gapdos or Splashifu to try and burn on the CC.

Is this thing the hot new thing, the new meta? The thing that will shake the fabric of all of smogon?

no.

However I do believe it's not a heat niche meme either. Although it's difficult to fit, when it fits it can actually do some serious work, especially in a Weavile heavy meta.

Other Options for the set include:

Fiery Dance over Flamethrower: I mean if you think you can gain momentum with it sure? but I think flamethrowers just a better bet.
Toxic over Will-O-Wisp/Whirlwind: It's an option, but it kind of conflicts with Flame Body.
Defog over Will-O-Wisp/Whirlwind: There are better defoggers out there, but if you ABSOLUTELY need it, be my guest.

252 Def over 156 Def / 100 SpDef: Beats Black Glasses Bisharp, and guarantees you live a +2 EQ from Chomp, otherwise it's a roll.

252 SpDef ove- Absolutely Not. Don't do that, you will starting dropping to every Weavile you come across, it's not worth it, dont.

CALCS

252 Atk Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Volcarona: 157-186 (41.9 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Volcarona: 144-172 (38.5 - 45.9%) -- approx. 3HKO
+4 252+ Atk Life Orb Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Volcarona in Grassy Terrain: 161-191 (43 - 51%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Volcarona: 343-405 (91.7 - 108.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Volcarona: 307-363 (82 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 100 SpD Volcarona: 144-169 (38.5 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Volcarona: 256-303 (68.4 - 81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zeraora Plasma Fists vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Volcarona: 154-183 (41.1 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Kartana Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Volcarona: 142-168 (37.9 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Volcarona: 156-184 (41.7 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Arctozolt Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Volcarona: 316-372 (84.4 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage

Things you cannot beat 1v1:
You couldn't before, you still cant.
+1 DWB will kill you, but if hes +0 you can take em.
You can beat scarf variants, but not Specs variants.
Your worst nightmare.

Give it a try, I'd love to see people's thoughts on it and other underrated sets/mons people are using in the meta. Cheers!

i think defensive volcarona w/o QD is "interesting" but i don't understand the relevance of it being able to take a shadow ball from pult considering you don't do anything back and pult can still quite easily exploit it by forcing it to roost and risk spdef drops. i also think since volc is so reliant on boots, using it as a weavile and kart switch-in isn't particularly useful, since a good chunk of the time you'll be switching it into a knock, effectively rendering your volc useless as a defensive mon as long as hazards remain on the field.

i think this is interesting and definitely can be a pain to play against with flame body, but as a solely defensive mon (given that it does not provide very good offensive pressure and is quite easily taken advantage of), it relies too much on prediction, low rolls and flame body RNG to cripple physical attackers. i think a lot of the calcs shown also cut it very close and depend on volcarona being fully healthy to even check the likes of weavile and zeraora, and since it is very knock-susceptible, it is also very susceptible to chip.

 

[Eeveeto]

I have always disagreed with Zygarde 50%'s ban, as I feel there is enough counterplay for it even if we considered ranked Mons only. Zygarde Complete, however, is way too much, it literally lives even ice moves, be them physical or special. It's an unbreakable Mon that would warp the Tier around itself. Having a Mon that slows down the Tier, makes Heatran and most electrics bad is cool, but in this specific case the cons outweight the pros and the meta would be much less healthy.

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

I have always disagreed with Zygarde 50%'s ban, as I feel there is enough counterplay for it even if we considered ranked Mons only. Zygarde Complete, however, is way too much, it literally lives even ice moves, be them physical or special. It's an unbreakable Mon that would warp the Tier around itself. Having a Mon that slows down the Tier, makes Heatran and most electrics bad is cool, but in this specific case the cons outweight the pros and the meta would be much less healthy.

no 1 counter and sub coil glare pretty much solos any of its counters outside of the rare unaware clef and haze quagsire. And then they suffer to CB zygarde which throws them as counters out the window

 

[Drahe]

Is there any unconventional/underrated Pokemon or Movesets that you think are more viable than people think?

Maybe I better have to post this in heat thread ... I keep a save of it if u want I have it there.

​

Not a big take, well known but not ranked or really used in OU.
I still think he's a good sticky setter in OU for HO : sack'n'slash.
This boy is a real friend of steel type pokemon : resist 2x fight ground & 4x fire.
+ resist steel water & ice. As a bulky water he's neutral to grass.

Is able to survive 2 CC or 2 S'balls : with the same set.​

How does it work ? Like a condom : have it on something that dig holes in your team, eja... threw your sticky web in front of ...
Then switch/die to send a defiant or anti-defog / anti-spin guy. Sadly don't have a suicidal move or recovery.
I don't think u necessarly use sticky early game, depend.

Firewall (Araquanid) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 248 HP / 88 Def / 160 SpD / 12 Spe
Sassy Nature
- Sticky Web
- Leech Life / ?
- Scald / Liquidation
- Toxic / Mirror Coat​

Not shure about optimisation.
Scald is fishing burn & aweaken on anti-sticky dudes
Speed let outspeed CM / Leech Life is good vs
Think toxic is better to prevent sweepers

Here the calcs

I just show the better move or interesting ones.

252 SpA Eruption (150 BP) (23 - 27.4%)
252 SpA Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 160+ SpD Araquanid: 138-163 (40.7 - 48%) - 20% SpD drop
252 SpA Overheat (33 - 39.2%)

(then he trick you, have your boots and you rage-quit)​

252 SpA Draco Meteor over 2 turns (74.3 - 87.9%)
252+ SpA Shadow Ball (42.4 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Sludge Wave (31.8 - 37.7%)
80 SpA Future Sight (28.3 - 33.6%) wich mean you can survive to some combination, the pivoting letting you sticky and hit.
252 SpA Moonblast (23.3 - 27.7%) -- 78.6% chance to 4HKO
+1 252 SpA Bug Buzz (42.4 - 49.8%)
Victini frequently use bolt strike. if not u survive 2 vcreate.

0 SpA Water Bubble Scald vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD 152-180 (39.3 - 46.6%) can't taunt for free
0 SpA Water Bubble Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD 97-115 (30.5 - 36.1%) free switch on appropriate answer
Valcarona really depend of the set, better use Toxic. Or have liquidation.

252 Atk Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Araquanid: 144-169 (42.4 - 49.8%)
252 Atk Knock Off (97.5 BP) (43.3 - 51.3%)
252 Atk Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) (26.5 - 31.8%)
252 Atk Knock Off (97.5 BP) (64.8 - 76.4%)
252 Atk Triple Axel (39.8 - 47.7%)
252 Atk Scale Shot (3 hits) (37.1 - 43.3%) lucky or not ?
0 Atk Power Whip (35.3 - 41.8%)
0 Atk Thunder Punch (41.2 - 48.9%) look free if he don't have invested Tpunch

0 Atk Leech Life vs. 0 HP / 0 Def 186-218 (66.1 - 77.5%) (27.4 - 32.1% recovered)
0 SpA Water Bubble Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD 168-198 (43.9 - 51.8%)

RAIN​

Spa seismitoad isn't a menace even with specs. Kingdra have hurricane wich blast you pretty well.
252+ Atk Power Whip (43.3 - 51.3%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Water Bubble Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD in Rain: 187-222 (53.2 - 63.2%)
252+ Atk Liquidation (47.4 - 55.7%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Water Bubble Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD in Rain: 129-153 (49 - 58.1%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
survive 2 steam from specs volcanion under rain : if not burned. full SpD can change that but urshifu is more frequent so.
banded surging strikes under rain is too much.

248 HP / 204 Def ► survive 2 liquidation under rain. If u especially want a check for physical rain users.

There's a lot of partners to build around araquanid :
Thought is a great combination.

Anyone get the dadjoke for web & firewall ?​

 

[SLDR]

Is there any unconventional/underrated Pokemon or Movesets that you think are more viable than people think?

Not sure if any of these picks answer your question directly, I just wanted to share some interesting sets for use in the SS OU tier. open up the ones you are interested in.
with Superpower

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With a Jolly nature and with its usual knockturn + heatwave combo, it can be an effective lure for mons like heatran, tyranitar, blissey and, to a lesser extent, washtom, due to applying a good chuck of chip damage, especially to the former two that don't have any means of recovering it. This is very useful to open up a path for teammates such as tapu lele and blacephalon, both of which also appreciate tornadus-t being a pseudo ghost resist with its AV. speaking of blacephalon, being able to run jolly instead of timid makes for a much more favourable damage roll with knock off.

0 Atk Tornadus-Therian Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Blacephalon: 232-274 (93.9 - 110.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
0- Atk Tornadus-Therian Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Blacephalon: 208-246 (84.2 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(with Light Screen)

Hide

eject button pex is a nice tech for teams that need the glue capacity of pex without loosing too much momentum. after its consumption it also leaves pex without an item to better deal with sd dark types such as weavile, bisharp and the goat crawdaunt. any predicted uturn can be turned on its head because eject button nullifies the opponent's switch and gives you a free switch instead. this works extremely well alongside against a ferrothorn's knock off or a corviknight's uturn.
on the topic of pex, I also feel like light screen is something not to be forgotten. it was more popular when future sight strats were more spammed but it's still solid for softening some special attackers like volcanion and volcarona and also to patch up teams that are extremely weak to future sight strats, which is nice given how popular slowbro is. you can always switch this in on a future sight, set light screen up as they teleport and watch 'em cry.

Hide

this mofo is one i really want to try out because that obscure item you probably don't recognize is coba berry, the supereffective flying type damage reducing berry. this has great synergy with bulu's access to swords dance and rock coverage in rock slide/stone edge. zapdos and torn-t are usually good checks to bulu since they are faster and ohko with hurricane, but coba berry flips the script as they crumble to a +2 rock move. this set must be used with bird-hating pokèmon such as scarf kartana that really appreciates these two prominent birds being lured and ko'd.

with Future Sight and/or Aromatherapy

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the rmt in my signature below has a scarf lele with both future sight and aromatherapy, if you want more context. future sight is a lot more used on scarf lele because the amount of switches it forces is easy to exploit and lele's future sight is incomparably stronger to that of slowbro and friends. aromatherapy is extremely uncommon, as i've seen only ...myself use it, but it's very interesting for more balance teams for it allows you to play more aggressively and trade toxics early game to gain an advantage. nullyfing turns worth of progress in one turn can change the game on its head, especially against those rare, slow builds against which scarf lele usually has nothing to do.

(Psyshock / Photon Geyser / Heat Wave / Earth Power)

Hide

this dude is impossible to switch into outside of hard counters (slowking, hydreigon) because 1 no one is aware of its damage output and twisted spoon fakes specs quite effectively and 2 this thing is bulky and has a great defensive ability, which means it has a good chance of living any one hit unless its up against something ridicoulous such as specs blacephalon or band kartana. psyshock and photon geyser allows necrozma to fire off psychic stabs against both sides of the defense, making it much more difficult to reliably stop with blanket checks. heat wave and earth power maul every steel type that thought it had switched into a specs psyshock or photon geyser. this thing is even more broken alongside tapu lele and its psychic terrain (necrozma also learns expanding force), although teambuilding with two psychic types is extremely difficult. kartana is also a very powerful teammate. I suggest you to try this out alongside anything that needs steel types taken out of the game, you won't regret it.

Hide

again very similar: bluff specs, remove stuff. this works with either sludge wave or toxic in the last slot. volcanion really wants to spam steam eruption as much as possible and its coverage moves are its tools to open up a path for itself. why just not remove prediction and lure its own checks out of the game? mystic water boosted steam eruptions aren't as strong as specs ones, but being able to freely switch moves can be devastating especially because you are taking rocks damage and thus people will assume you're choiced as you'd normally run only hdb and specs on volcanion.

//

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mamoswine is the definition of antimeta: it finds itself silently destroying teams that forget how powerful it is because there are a million and a half other threats to take care of. priority ice shard and ground typing give it some sort of defensive utility as well. kyurem was broken with just ice stab and ground coverage alone, so this thing that has stab on both surely isn't weak offensively. you mostly want to flex your non-contact, flinch inducing stab icicle crash and use eq/knock to cripple crash resists and this time you really can just afford using band and destroy everything because mamoswine is just built different.
nevermelt ice is still good tho, freeing up a slot for an utility move other than knock off. rocks is great as mamo forces a lot of switches and abuses/beats pretty much every defogger. freeze dry clips slowbro and even pelipper pretty hard. toxic cripples both as well as mons like buzzwole, making them easier to weaken over time, especially with icicle crash's nasty 30% flinch rate.
metronome is just stupid because you can keep spamming your icicle crash or eq and outdamage mons that can usually recover stall them out, such as corviknight and even offensive buzzwole if you're lucky enough. definitely not as reliable as the other ones, but still very much worth a try imho.

these are probably not as innovative as you're looking for, but are just some interesting techs and mons that I feel like can do more than what you would think at face value. keep in mind that everything here has been tested by me aside from coba berry bulu (I reeeeally want to try this), i just didn't bother saving replays because i was trying to have some fun rather than proving the viability of these sets so mb. If someone else has tried them or wants to, I'm happy to receive opinions.

 

[ausma]

Now that the post-Kyurem meta seems to have gotten comfortable, viability slate is done, and we all seem to be settling into the new SSOU, how about a question to spice things up?

Is there any unconventional/underrated Pokemon or Movesets that you think are more viable than people think?

This is an awesome discussion prompt, and I'd like to add my 2 cents into it after having done a lot of experimenting with weird stuff lately and watching SPL games to really help guide my thinking. So, I'd like to present: Aegislash, bar none the most slept on Pokemon in this tier.



A lot of my acquaintances are familiar with my stance on this Pokemon, and have endured quite a bit of discussion from me regarding it. It's a Pokemon that has had no tour breakout as of yet, but despite that, it is one I adamantly believe to be a presence in the metagame with untapped potential.

To preface this discussion on Aegislash, I'd like to first talk about just how incredibly powerful Ghost-type STAB moves are in this metagame. Without a dedicated answer, repeatedly pivoting into them throughout the game is immensely difficult, especially when we have Pokemon like Dragapult consistently able to exploit offensive Pokemon and force damage with its near unparalleled Speed tier, thus making it capable of easily wearing down teams reliant on keeping their backbones healthy and paving the way for powerful cleaners like Weavile. While Dragapult specifically is definitely the best example, we have options like Blacephalon which is rising in use simply due to how effective and pragmatic Ghost-type moves are at chipping away at the tier's widespread slew of bulky offenses, and in Blacephalon's case it has another spammable STAB, Trick, and Beast Boost to make it even harder to consistently answer. Essentially, without a dedicated answer, it's immensely hard to stop Ghost-types from forcing key damage and suboptimal positioning; your best options are either Weavile (unreliable in the long term), are resistant fatmons like Blissey, Tyranitar, or Mandibuzz (which are all super exploitable and the latter of which faces major competition from Zapdos and Tornadus-T regardless) or numerous, stacked Specially-oriented walls. A lot of bulkier teams are able to more readily afford more consistent answers, which dwindles Dragapult's value against bulkier structures. However, given the prevalence of offense in general and Dragapult getting more turns to exploit offensive Pokemon for wallbreaking opportunities, Dragapult is a very polarizing Pokemon that's either a defining win condition in some matchups or a U-turn bot. In short, Dragapult is made consistent by the prosperity of its best matchup, but it definitely can struggle against fat.

Going onto Aegislash, Aegislash is a Pokemon that is often compared with Dragapult as a Ghost-type breaker, and I want to say that, despite my passion for Aegislash, it is near indisputable that Aegislash is worse than Dragapult in almost every way as a standalone Ghost-type wallbreaker. Most prominently, it's much slower and much easier to revenge kill, which are two things that make Dragapult much more practical as a standalone breaker in a vacuum, and tend to make Aegislash much harder to use against offensive teams since it has many less opportunities to break. However, Aegislash is not a Ghost-type that should be used as a solo wallbreaker; it, instead, excels as a Dragapult partner, and gets the most value by taking advantage of the bulkier, more passive Pokemon that Dragapult invites in and struggles to make progress against. How does it do this? To answer that, let's talk about Aegislash's kit.

Aegislash is pitted with an incredible defensive profile, with superb natural bulk for an offensive Pokemon thanks to Stance Change. 60/140/140 bulk with a slew of immensely valuable resistances against Flying-, Psychic-, Steel-, Fairy-, Dragon-, Ice-, and an immunity to Fighting-type moves give it a lot of leverage to take hits and threaten back with its equally incredible 140/140 offenses. As such, it is able to take advantage of a shocking range of Pokemon, such as Melmetal, Choice-locked Kartana, Tapu Lele, Galarian Zapdos lacking Stomping Tantrum, Blissey, and Corviknight among other things. While this gives Aegislash a solid degree of leverage to begin wallbreaking by instead taking advantage of its defensive profile unlike Dragapult, another major standout is Aegislash's access to Close Combat, which completely invalidates the consistency of Shadow Ball checks like Blissey, Weavile, and Tyranitar. While it hates Mandibuzz, Mandibuzz is at an all time low and you can exploit it with teammates, coverage, and Toxic, anyway.

Consequently, Aegislash has a much stronger matchup against bulkier structures because it has the defensive profile to do work against them. While there are a lot of ways you can take advantage of this, and are definite positives of Aegislash at base, I would like to talk about the sleeper option that I see as being the definitive option to actually getting that consistent value out of your Aegislash: Substitute.


Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Substitute
- Shadow Ball
- Close Combat / Toxic
- King's Shield / Toxic

Substitute Aegislash is, bar none, the best Aegislash variant, capable of using its phenomenal defensive profile to give itself safety against offensive Pokemon and trade its Substitute for a consistent KO. It can set up a Substitute against Pokemon it naturally threatens out or can easily take hits from (most bulky Pokemon), and in some cases outright doesn't care if they stay in, in the case of Blissey and Corviknight, and not only does this, but consistently threatens SpDef drops to let it pierce past potential walls. With SubShield, it also has superb defensive utility that makes use of its great bulk and resistances that can be super hard to find for some offenses. SubToxic is already a very sound option, and does well in exploiting bulkier Pokemon like AV Tornadus-T that can stomach its hits and threaten it back. However, to me, the best Aegislash option is SubShield + 2 Attacks, featuring its amazing coverage move in Close Combat.

Substitute + Close Combat is an immensely potent combination, letting Aegislash safely threaten Shadow Ball pivots without worrying about status or being threatened by a Dark-type move. Substitute gives it leverage to nuke threats like Heatran, Tyranitar, Blissey, Weavile, and AV Melmetal which all have the ability to naturally respond to a Shadow Ball with a Substitute down. However, to then force Aegislash out of prime breaking position, they need to take out its Substitute, which first means having to soak a potentially game-defining Close Combat. Pokemon like Blissey and Clefable that it beats 1v1 anyway have an even harder time against Substitute, especially since with a Substitute it gets a Thunder Wave immunity and it is able to scout options like Flamethrower and Knock Off and knows when and how to play safe.

King's Shield, even with its nerf, still gets great value out of Attack drops, which notably lets its Substitute survive against the utility Knock Off from Pokemon like Clefable, Tornadus-T, and Toxapex, letting it begin to spam Shadow Ball and threaten all of them with Special Defense drops. King's Shield's Attack drop can potentially save it against other threats like Weavile and Kartana's Knock Off and secure a nice trade depending on how weak your team is to them. King's Shield is also superb as a Choice-lock scouting tool, which can be immensely useful against Pokemon like Weavile, Kartana, Tapu Lele, and Dragapult which can all either be safely maneuvered against, or immediately exploited for another wallbreaking opportunity. Extra Leftovers recovery is also nice, and complements Substitute immaculately as a way to generate empty turns to let things like status and Leftovers accumulate.

Let's now talk about potential flaws that I hear in your head:

Don't Urshifu-R's Unseen Fist/Surging Strikes combo and Infiltrator Dragapult just completely invalidate this?

On paper, yes. However, with a Substitute up to force Urshifu-R into Surging Strikes and thus an easy response into a Rocky Helmet Pokemon, and King's Shield to scout Dragapult's Choice-lock, these matchups can easily become advantageous with proper team support. In the case of Dragapult, if they get gutsy and U-turn on your King's Shield, that's another opportunity to take a pick or force damage. You also live a Choice Specs-boosted Flamethrower from around >80% if they try to meet a middle ground, so if you value that trade more than your Aegislash's HP, then that's also very fine and can be incredible in matchups where you're weak against it. In other words, both of these are immensely doable, and with Galarian Zapdos rising as a Fighting-type option, Urshifu-R is less relevant than when I was originally testing this.

Without a boosting item, Regenerator cores featuring AV Tornadus-T and Toxapex surely wall this.

If you opt for Toxic as an option, AV Tornadus-T's longevity, especially with King's Shield to weaken its Knock Off, is cut into and it can lose the 1v1. However, if you use the chad SubShield + 2 Attacks, Shadow Ball SpDef drops secure the matchups with proper timing and support. Knock Off support (which all teams should have to some capacity) can be a life-saver too, and then once you get a SpDef drop, you can force Tornadus-T out. Against Toxapex, team support makes a massive difference. It may be immune to Toxic, but Thunder Wave from an ally Pokemon, King's Shield to let your Substitute live its Knock Off, and SpDef drops to thus win the 1v1 make Toxapex a very doable matchup. This is a case where this can be a potential shortcoming, but deliberate team support can really help it excel in otherwise undesirable matchups.

You'll never find a turn to get up a Substitute against offense, what's the point?

This part is admittedly true, but that's why I mentioned earlier that Aegislash works best as a Dragapult partner, as something that both mauls Aegislash's weak point and enables it in matchups where it excels. However, against Pokemon like Hawlucha, AV Melmetal/Buzzwole lacking Earthquake, Galarian Zapdos, Tapu Lele, and Choice-locked Pokemon, it can still get some turns to threaten chip and/or get a Substitute, and take at least one decent trade with its great natural bulk.

Ok, all of this is great, but it's all Theorymon without proof, right? Well, thankfully, I have copious replays to show the nuances of these interactions. Perhaps not the best showings ever and during a time I was low-mid-ladder, but you can see the interactions in full:

aegi replays

these replays are a bit aged, but even so, a lot of these cores and fatmons are everywhere and aegi still exploits them as well as ever. hell, with lower corvi use you can more readily justify toxic as an option which just improves its flexibility

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1454371145 - spdef drops force switches and chip reliably
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1430053818-c69ytq3njgmv6rd3nalwwzpapv7pr3spw - older replay but no kyurem so pog. you can see here how it forces a ko against weav, damage against zone with a sub up, sets sub up against corvi, and forces shifu into surging for free helmet chip
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1444138674-qjub97krqbelw1ewd9k72p5w1wdi7p5pw - also not an amazing demonstration of its utility, but subshield shows how great it is against future sight, making it great for bulkier structures, and threatens gking in of itself if you manage to secure a knock against it
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1455295333-eh6swqgdwp4kjkca47mwr413zndzpdupw - it beats pex 1v1 with twave, also shows off the flamethrower trade and even keeps its sub up
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1429945332-gbfn4tyynbw990w28n4g9lby6ifdzc4pw - exploits lele, king's shield against pult turns the bad mu into another breaking opportunity. just forget that i sacked it to the shadow ball though i promise that was tactical (it wasnt)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1455384533-znof3xbbnnqzgyg4hshrqk0j7g0vvhppw - some defensive utility against lucha nihilego ho which is rising in use. this was while kyurem was still around but kyurem mu wasn't the highlight here anyway so shrug
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1455395922-ymomebz44zni9k3dqytckknp4k5y9gspw - vs zap pult offense, great pressure against zap, walls buzzwole, trades w/ pult thrower, manages to turn the shadow ball lock into teleport momentum
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1455645062-j6avhr7i4jjwz8m2xu7f641ojwdxep8pw - vs tranpex + lele, deters lele, beats swole 1v1 with shadow ball, immense tran pressure, low health from lando quake but still manages to get value

And, the best part? This is just Substitute. I've seen people use Spell Tag and Choice Specs, too, and while I don't see either as being close to its best variants, both augment its breaking power and still similarly exploit its access to Close Combat and even Shadow Sneak to give it some value against Dragapult offenses. I highly, highly encourage you try out Aegislash, as it's in my eyes a breaker with heaps of potential, and I hope my long winded thoughts can convince you to some extent of its merit!

As a dessert, here's another fun set from the kitchen but not anywhere near as nuanced as Aegislash:

hungry

Hippowdon @ Rocky Helmet / Leftovers / Soft Sand
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 208 Atk / 48 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Fire Fang / Ice Fang / Toxic / Stealth Rock
- Slack Off

This one is much more experimental, so I won't talk nearly as much about it, but let's go over some things.

Hippowdon has great coverage, a shockingly high Attack stat, and is the only viable bulky Ground-type at our disposal with recovery. Up until this set, we've mostly seen bulky Stealth Rock Toxic Hippowdon, but seeing the recent endeavors of Swords Dance Landorus-T inspired me to play into a 3 Attacks + Slack Off variant that takes notes from Buzzwole, but instead plays to Hippowdon's utility as a bulky Ground-type. This Hippowdon set takes advantage of the rising use of AV Tornadus-T, offensive Zapdos, and Air Balloon Heatran to serve as a breaker with solid defensive utility and pinch defensive applications against Pokemon like Dragapult and Galarian Zapdos, being capable of pivoting into the former two and luring the latter to pop its balloon and massively reduce its defensive utility. You can go with coverage to snipe things like Corviknight and Landorus-T, but Toxic and Stealth Rock are good, classic options that let it midground consistent answers like Buzzwole or Landorus-T/Corviknight themselves. Sandstorm chip is also a great complement to this set, passively boosting its damage output a la Choice Band Tyranitar and Specs Vanilluxe in lower tiers. Lastly, this spread takes two Hurricanes from Zapdos.

It pairs best with your own Heatran, which greatly appreciates its ability to lure Air Balloon Heatran, and Heatran itself also loves the Sandstorm chip. Hippowdon also goes well with things like Dracozolt and Excadrill, too, especially with the overall Ground-spam and Hippowdon's access to longevity letting it stick around in the long term. Clefable is also great for cleric support!

 

[SLDR]

This is an awesome discussion prompt, and I'd like to add my 2 cents into it after having done a lot of experimenting with weird stuff lately and watching SPL games to really help guide my thinking. So, I'd like to present: Aegislash, bar none the most slept on Pokemon in this tier.



A lot of my acquaintances are familiar with my stance on this Pokemon, and have endured quite a bit of discussion from me regarding it. It's a Pokemon that has had no tour breakout as of yet, but despite that, it is one I adamantly believe to be a presence in the metagame with untapped potential.

To preface this discussion on Aegislash, I'd like to first talk about just how incredibly powerful Ghost-type STAB moves are in this metagame. Without a dedicated answer, repeatedly pivoting into them throughout the game is immensely difficult, especially when we have Pokemon like Dragapult consistently able to exploit offensive Pokemon and force damage with its near unparalleled Speed tier, thus making it capable of easily wearing down teams reliant on keeping their backbones healthy and paving the way for powerful cleaners like Weavile. While Dragapult specifically is definitely the best example, we have options like Blacephalon which is rising in use simply due to how effective and pragmatic Ghost-type moves are at chipping away at the tier's widespread slew of bulky offenses, and in Blacephalon's case it has another spammable STAB, Trick, and Beast Boost to make it even harder to consistently answer. Essentially, without a dedicated answer, it's immensely hard to stop Ghost-types from forcing key damage and suboptimal positioning; your best options are either Weavile (unreliable in the long term), are resistant fatmons like Blissey, Tyranitar, or Mandibuzz (which are all super exploitable and the latter of which faces major competition from Zapdos and Tornadus-T regardless) or numerous, stacked Specially-oriented walls. A lot of bulkier teams are able to more readily afford more consistent answers, which dwindles Dragapult's value against bulkier structures. However, given the prevalence of offense in general and Dragapult getting more turns to exploit offensive Pokemon for wallbreaking opportunities, Dragapult is a very polarizing Pokemon that's either a defining win condition in some matchups or a U-turn bot. In short, Dragapult is made consistent by the prosperity of its best matchup, but it definitely can struggle against fat.

Going onto Aegislash, Aegislash is a Pokemon that is often compared with Dragapult as a Ghost-type breaker, and I want to say that, despite my passion for Aegislash, it is near indisputable that Aegislash is worse than Dragapult in almost every way as a standalone Ghost-type wallbreaker. Most prominently, it's much slower and much easier to revenge kill, which are two things that make Dragapult much more practical as a standalone breaker in a vacuum, and tend to make Aegislash much harder to use against offensive teams since it has many less opportunities to break. However, Aegislash is not a Ghost-type that should be used as a solo wallbreaker; it, instead, excels as a Dragapult partner, and gets the most value by taking advantage of the bulkier, more passive Pokemon that Dragapult invites in and struggles to make progress against. How does it do this? To answer that, let's talk about Aegislash's kit.

Aegislash is pitted with an incredible defensive profile, with superb natural bulk for an offensive Pokemon thanks to Stance Change. 60/140/140 bulk with a slew of immensely valuable resistances against Flying-, Psychic-, Steel-, Fairy-, Dragon-, Ice-, and an immunity to Fighting-type moves give it a lot of leverage to take hits and threaten back with its equally incredible 140/140 offenses. As such, it is able to take advantage of a shocking range of Pokemon, such as Melmetal, Choice-locked Kartana, Tapu Lele, Galarian Zapdos lacking Stomping Tantrum, Blissey, and Corviknight among other things. While this gives Aegislash a solid degree of leverage to begin wallbreaking by instead taking advantage of its defensive profile unlike Dragapult, another major standout is Aegislash's access to Close Combat, which completely invalidates the consistency of Shadow Ball checks like Blissey, Weavile, and Tyranitar. While it hates Mandibuzz, Mandibuzz is at an all time low and you can exploit it with teammates, coverage, and Toxic, anyway.

Consequently, Aegislash has a much stronger matchup against bulkier structures because it has the defensive profile to do work against them. While there are a lot of ways you can take advantage of this, and are definite positives of Aegislash at base, I would like to talk about the sleeper option that I see as being the definitive option to actually getting that consistent value out of your Aegislash: Substitute.


Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Substitute
- Shadow Ball
- Close Combat / Toxic
- King's Shield / Toxic

Substitute Aegislash is, bar none, the best Aegislash variant, capable of using its phenomenal defensive profile to give itself safety against offensive Pokemon and trade its Substitute for a consistent KO. It can set up a Substitute against Pokemon it naturally threatens out or can easily take hits from (most bulky Pokemon), and in some cases outright doesn't care if they stay in, in the case of Blissey and Corviknight, and not only does this, but consistently threatens SpDef drops to let it pierce past potential walls. With SubShield, it also has superb defensive utility that makes use of its great bulk and resistances that can be super hard to find for some offenses. SubToxic is already a very sound option, and does well in exploiting bulkier Pokemon like AV Tornadus-T that can stomach its hits and threaten it back. However, to me, the best Aegislash option is SubShield + 2 Attacks, featuring its amazing coverage move in Close Combat.

Substitute + Close Combat is an immensely potent combination, letting Aegislash safely threaten Shadow Ball pivots without worrying about status or being threatened by a Dark-type move. Substitute gives it leverage to nuke threats like Heatran, Tyranitar, Blissey, Weavile, and AV Melmetal which all have the ability to naturally respond to a Shadow Ball with a Substitute down. However, to then force Aegislash out of prime breaking position, they need to take out its Substitute, which first means having to soak a potentially game-defining Close Combat. Pokemon like Blissey and Clefable that it beats 1v1 anyway have an even harder time against Substitute, especially since with a Substitute it gets a Thunder Wave immunity and it is able to scout options like Flamethrower and Knock Off and knows when and how to play safe.

King's Shield, even with its nerf, still gets great value out of Attack drops, which notably lets its Substitute survive against the utility Knock Off from Pokemon like Clefable, Tornadus-T, and Toxapex, letting it begin to spam Shadow Ball and threaten all of them with Special Defense drops. King's Shield's Attack drop can potentially save it against other threats like Weavile and Kartana's Knock Off and secure a nice trade depending on how weak your team is to them. King's Shield is also superb as a Choice-lock scouting tool, which can be immensely useful against Pokemon like Weavile, Kartana, Tapu Lele, and Dragapult which can all either be safely maneuvered against, or immediately exploited for another wallbreaking opportunity. Extra Leftovers recovery is also nice, and complements Substitute immaculately as a way to generate empty turns to let things like status and Leftovers accumulate.

Let's now talk about potential flaws that I hear in your head:

Don't Urshifu-R's Unseen Fist/Surging Strikes combo and Infiltrator Dragapult just completely invalidate this?

On paper, yes. However, with a Substitute up to force Urshifu-R into Surging Strikes and thus an easy response into a Rocky Helmet Pokemon, and King's Shield to scout Dragapult's Choice-lock, these matchups can easily become advantageous with proper team support. In the case of Dragapult, if they get gutsy and U-turn on your King's Shield, that's another opportunity to take a pick or force damage. You also live a Choice Specs-boosted Flamethrower from around >80% if they try to meet a middle ground, so if you value that trade more than your Aegislash's HP, then that's also very fine and can be incredible in matchups where you're weak against it. In other words, both of these are immensely doable, and with Galarian Zapdos rising as a Fighting-type option, Urshifu-R is less relevant than when I was originally testing this.

Without a boosting item, Regenerator cores featuring AV Tornadus-T and Toxapex surely wall this.

If you opt for Toxic as an option, AV Tornadus-T's longevity, especially with King's Shield to weaken its Knock Off, is cut into and it can lose the 1v1. However, if you use the chad SubShield + 2 Attacks, Shadow Ball SpDef drops secure the matchups with proper timing and support. Knock Off support (which all teams should have to some capacity) can be a life-saver too, and then once you get a SpDef drop, you can force Tornadus-T out. Against Toxapex, team support makes a massive difference. It may be immune to Toxic, but Thunder Wave from an ally Pokemon, King's Shield to let your Substitute live its Knock Off, and SpDef drops to thus win the 1v1 make Toxapex a very doable matchup. This is a case where this can be a potential shortcoming, but deliberate team support can really help it excel in otherwise undesirable matchups.

You'll never find a turn to get up a Substitute against offense, what's the point?

This part is admittedly true, but that's why I mentioned earlier that Aegislash works best as a Dragapult partner, as something that both mauls Aegislash's weak point and enables it in matchups where it excels. However, against Pokemon like Hawlucha, AV Melmetal/Buzzwole lacking Earthquake, Galarian Zapdos, Tapu Lele, and Choice-locked Pokemon, it can still get some turns to threaten chip and/or get a Substitute, and take at least one decent trade with its great natural bulk.

Ok, all of this is great, but it's all Theorymon without proof, right? Well, thankfully, I have copious replays to show the nuances of these interactions. Perhaps not the best showings ever and during a time I was low-mid-ladder, but you can see the interactions in full:

aegi replays

these replays are a bit aged, but even so, a lot of these cores and fatmons are everywhere and aegi still exploits them as well as ever. hell, with lower corvi use you can more readily justify toxic as an option which just improves its flexibility

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1454371145 - spdef drops force switches and chip reliably
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1430053818-c69ytq3njgmv6rd3nalwwzpapv7pr3spw - older replay but no kyurem so pog. you can see here how it forces a ko against weav, damage against zone with a sub up, sets sub up against corvi, and forces shifu into surging for free helmet chip
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1444138674-qjub97krqbelw1ewd9k72p5w1wdi7p5pw - also not an amazing demonstration of its utility, but subshield shows how great it is against future sight, making it great for bulkier structures, and threatens gking in of itself if you manage to secure a knock against it
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1455295333-eh6swqgdwp4kjkca47mwr413zndzpdupw - it beats pex 1v1 with twave, also shows off the flamethrower trade and even keeps its sub up
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1429945332-gbfn4tyynbw990w28n4g9lby6ifdzc4pw - exploits lele, king's shield against pult turns the bad mu into another breaking opportunity. just forget that i sacked it to the shadow ball though i promise that was tactical (it wasnt)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1455384533-znof3xbbnnqzgyg4hshrqk0j7g0vvhppw - some defensive utility against lucha nihilego ho which is rising in use. this was while kyurem was still around but kyurem mu wasn't the highlight here anyway so shrug
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1455395922-ymomebz44zni9k3dqytckknp4k5y9gspw - vs zap pult offense, great pressure against zap, walls buzzwole, trades w/ pult thrower, manages to turn the shadow ball lock into teleport momentum
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1455645062-j6avhr7i4jjwz8m2xu7f641ojwdxep8pw - vs tranpex + lele, deters lele, beats swole 1v1 with shadow ball, immense tran pressure, low health from lando quake but still manages to get value

And, the best part? This is just Substitute. I've seen people use Spell Tag and Choice Specs, too, and while I don't see either as being close to its best variants, both augment its breaking power and still similarly exploit its access to Close Combat and even Shadow Sneak to give it some value against Dragapult offenses. I highly, highly encourage you try out Aegislash, as it's in my eyes a breaker with heaps of potential, and I hope my long winded thoughts can convince you to some extent of its merit!

As a dessert, here's another fun set from the kitchen but not anywhere near as nuanced as Aegislash:

hungry

Hippowdon @ Rocky Helmet / Leftovers / Soft Sand
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 208 Atk / 48 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Fire Fang / Ice Fang / Toxic / Stealth Rock
- Slack Off

This one is much more experimental, so I won't talk nearly as much about it, but let's go over some things.

Hippowdon has great coverage, a shockingly high Attack stat, and is the only viable bulky Ground-type at our disposal with recovery. Up until this set, we've mostly seen bulky Stealth Rock Toxic Hippowdon, but seeing the recent endeavors of Swords Dance Landorus-T inspired me to play into a 3 Attacks + Slack Off variant that takes notes from Buzzwole, but instead plays to Hippowdon's utility as a bulky Ground-type. This Hippowdon set takes advantage of the rising use of AV Tornadus-T, offensive Zapdos, and Air Balloon Heatran to serve as a breaker with solid defensive utility and pinch defensive applications against Pokemon like Dragapult and Galarian Zapdos, being capable of pivoting into the former two and luring the latter to pop its balloon and massively reduce its defensive utility. You can go with coverage to snipe things like Corviknight and Landorus-T, but Toxic and Stealth Rock are good, classic options that let it midground consistent answers like Buzzwole or Landorus-T/Corviknight themselves. Sandstorm chip is also a great complement to this set, passively boosting its damage output a la Choice Band Tyranitar and Specs Vanilluxe in lower tiers. Lastly, this spread takes two Hurricanes from Zapdos.

It pairs best with your own Heatran, which greatly appreciates its ability to lure Air Balloon Heatran, and Heatran itself also loves the Sandstorm chip. Hippowdon also goes well with things like Dracozolt and Excadrill, too, especially with the overall Ground-spam and Hippowdon's access to longevity letting it stick around in the long term. Clefable is also great for cleric support!

Love Aegislash!!! I'm glad someone has mentioned it! I was under the impression that a King Shield + Toxic with Shadow Ball and Close Combat would be the best variant for a Specs Dragapult partner, especially Specs Hex which is something probably worth experimenting on at the moment, but you do raise a good point for SubShield 2 Attacks. I feel like I tend to underestimate how powerful a fully invested base 140 base Special Attack STAB Shadow Ball is even without power boosting items, and the nasty 20% Special Defense drop.
I feel like SubShieldToxic is meh because Close Combat is too much a valuable tool for a Ghost type and it's one of Aegislash' best niches, almost as mandatory as Shadow Ball itself to be honest.

ToxShield set

Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 116 SpA / 140 Spe or 116 HP / 252 SpA / 140 Spe
Modest Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Close Combat
- Toxic
- King's Shield

That Hippo is lit athough I'd probably run Ice Fang for how common Landours-T is, which is quite good new for Dracozolt and Excadrill which both love Landorus-T being severely chipped.

 

[kosecant]

Maybe I better have to post this in heat thread ... I keep a save of it if u want I have it there.

​

Not a big take, well known but not ranked or really used in OU.
I still think he's a good sticky setter in OU for HO : sack'n'slash.
This boy is a real friend of steel type pokemon : resist 2x fight ground & 4x fire.
+ resist steel water & ice. As a bulky water he's neutral to grass.

Is able to survive 2 CC or 2 S'balls : with the same set.​

How does it work ? Like a condom : have it on something that dig holes in your team, eja... threw your sticky web in front of ...
Then switch/die to send a defiant or anti-defog / anti-spin guy. Sadly don't have a suicidal move or recovery.
I don't think u necessarly use sticky early game, depend.

Firewall (Araquanid) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 248 HP / 88 Def / 160 SpD / 12 Spe
Sassy Nature
- Sticky Web
- Leech Life / ?
- Scald / Liquidation
- Toxic / Mirror Coat​

Not shure about optimisation.
Scald is fishing burn & aweaken on anti-sticky dudes
Speed let outspeed CM / Leech Life is good vs
Think toxic is better to prevent sweepers

Here the calcs

I just show the better move or interesting ones.

252 SpA Eruption (150 BP) (23 - 27.4%)
252 SpA Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 160+ SpD Araquanid: 138-163 (40.7 - 48%) - 20% SpD drop
252 SpA Overheat (33 - 39.2%)

(then he trick you, have your boots and you rage-quit)​

252 SpA Draco Meteor over 2 turns (74.3 - 87.9%)
252+ SpA Shadow Ball (42.4 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Sludge Wave (31.8 - 37.7%)
80 SpA Future Sight (28.3 - 33.6%) wich mean you can survive to some combination, the pivoting letting you sticky and hit.
252 SpA Moonblast (23.3 - 27.7%) -- 78.6% chance to 4HKO
+1 252 SpA Bug Buzz (42.4 - 49.8%)
Victini frequently use bolt strike. if not u survive 2 vcreate.

0 SpA Water Bubble Scald vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD 152-180 (39.3 - 46.6%) can't taunt for free
0 SpA Water Bubble Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD 97-115 (30.5 - 36.1%) free switch on appropriate answer
Valcarona really depend of the set, better use Toxic. Or have liquidation.

252 Atk Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Araquanid: 144-169 (42.4 - 49.8%)
252 Atk Knock Off (97.5 BP) (43.3 - 51.3%)
252 Atk Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) (26.5 - 31.8%)
252 Atk Knock Off (97.5 BP) (64.8 - 76.4%)
252 Atk Triple Axel (39.8 - 47.7%)
252 Atk Scale Shot (3 hits) (37.1 - 43.3%) lucky or not ?
0 Atk Power Whip (35.3 - 41.8%)
0 Atk Thunder Punch (41.2 - 48.9%) look free if he don't have invested Tpunch

0 Atk Leech Life vs. 0 HP / 0 Def 186-218 (66.1 - 77.5%) (27.4 - 32.1% recovered)
0 SpA Water Bubble Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD 168-198 (43.9 - 51.8%)

RAIN​

Spa seismitoad isn't a menace even with specs. Kingdra have hurricane wich blast you pretty well.
252+ Atk Power Whip (43.3 - 51.3%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Water Bubble Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD in Rain: 187-222 (53.2 - 63.2%)
252+ Atk Liquidation (47.4 - 55.7%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Water Bubble Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD in Rain: 129-153 (49 - 58.1%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
survive 2 steam from specs volcanion under rain : if not burned. full SpD can change that but urshifu is more frequent so.
banded surging strikes under rain is too much.

248 HP / 204 Def ► survive 2 liquidation under rain. If u especially want a check for physical rain users.

There's a lot of partners to build around araquanid :
Thought is a great combination.

Anyone get the dadjoke for web & firewall ?​

I love araquanid! Some other quick things about it:
It’s actually only 2x resistant to fire, but water bubble allows it to use physical moves without worrying about being burned. Also, if you don’t need sticky webs, it work work well both with choice band and assault vest.


Araquanid @ Choice Band
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Liquidation
- Crunch
- Leech Life/Lunge
- Poison Jab

Band hit surprisingly hard, and has pretty solid coverage. Not a ton of reasons to use it over Urshifu, but it does deal with the slowtwins better due to bug stab

 

[Finchinator]

I will get up tiering survey results tomorrow night, by the way!

 

[Finchinator]

I will get up tiering survey results tomorrow night, by the way!

Results are in! Check out the responses to the February SS OU Tiering Survey: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ou-council-minutes-and-surveys.3684671/#post-9133581

Thank you.

 

[658Greninja]

Now that the post-Kyurem meta seems to have gotten comfortable, viability slate is done, and we all seem to be settling into the new SSOU, how about a question to spice things up?

Is there any unconventional/underrated Pokemon or Movesets that you think are more viable than people think?

Slowking-Galar @ Assault Vest/Shuca Berry
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 228 Def / 32 SpA
Relaxed Nature
- Whirlpool
- Ice Beam
- Earthquake
- Psychic/Sludge Bomb/Flamethrower/Focus Blast​

I am not sure if anyone brought up PhysD Glowking here but I feel like this set has potential. We all know about Whirlpool Fini and how it can trap or cripple targets like Pex, Blissey, as well as Slowbro. However Fini lacks the longevity to stay in the field through time and gets overwhelmed quickly. Not to mention one of its targets is decreasing is usage. Whirlpool Glowking not only traps more targets, but it has longevity.

Alot of benefits come from investing in physical bulk such as….

(living an EQ from SD Chomp and offensive or defensive Lando)

(living a Knock Off from non-Choice Band variants. Even Adamant doesn’t kill at full)

(being able to scout these three more efficiently)

Even without SpD investment, Glowking can still tank special hits tho not as well.

Because of its bulk, offensive stats, and movepool, it can lure/trap several targets, such as…

(Lives an EQ and Ice Beams it, can’t trap it tho cuz U-Turn)

(Lives an EQ from full and kills with Ice Beam + Whirlpool chip)

(If it has Flamethrower)

(EQ 2HKOs)

(If it has Psychic and SpD drop procs)

(Beats it 1v1)

(Focus Blast + Whirlpool kills it, and it lives a Knock at full)

The others like Clef and Fini are hit by Sludge Bomb, but they are unlikely to stay in vs Glowking, in case they do you can punish them for it.

With the fact that it can trap these highly relevant targets and while still providing defensive utility afterwards is nice.

I used Whirlpool Glowking with other offensive threats but I find its pairing with Koko to be the best since it benefits the most out of its checks being removed. Some others that benefit from it includes…

(Harder to check without Tran or Pex in the picture)

(Appreciates the removal of Tran and Glowking. As well as the removal of Pex if it isn’t running Thunder)

(If Weavile is lured and killed, it becomes much harder to check. Plus Tran and Pex being removed is great)

(Not an offensive threat but it appreciates not having to worry about Tran. Plus it appreciates Glowking being able to scout Surging Strikes/Close Comabts)

(No Lando/Chomp in the picture is always nice)

(Traps Ferro/Lando/Tran/Pex. Harder to dance around, the better)

(No Ferro or Chomp to cut off your Meteor Beam antics)

(Also not an offensive threat but it has nice defensive synergy, forms a regen core, and appreciates Tran and Glowking being deleted)

(Without Ferro/Glowking/Pex, Scarf and CM Fini becomes a scary cleaner. Or if you are a mad with power, you can run both Whirlpool Fini and Glowking. Add in Zone for maximum trapping)

(CB Tini + Tranless team = haha gottem ggs)

(Glowking traps Tran or Chomp, Volc sweeps. Do I have to say anything else?)

(Less grounds = less worries)

Even in mus where Glowking couldn’t trap anything, Whirlpool’s chip dmg and Glowking’s offensive/defensive utility means that it will still be an asset on teams.

I could provide calcs but I’m too lazy rn. Just know that it lives Chomp EQ even after rocks.

Some teams for those who are interested
https://pokepast.es/db0628b6a549b061
https://pokepast.es/7cb9805dcae84ad3

 

[Moyashi]

View attachment 408907
Slowking-Galar @ Assault Vest/Shuca Berry
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 228 Def / 32 SpA
Relaxed Nature
- Whirlpool
- Ice Beam
- Earthquake
- Psychic/Sludge Bomb/Flamethrower/Focus Blast​

I am not sure if anyone brought up PhysD Glowking here but I feel like this set has potential. We all know about Whirlpool Fini and how it can trap or cripple targets like Pex, Blissey, as well as Slowbro. However Fini lacks the longevity to stay in the field through time and gets overwhelmed quickly. Not to mention one of its targets is decreasing is usage. Whirlpool Glowking not only traps more targets, but it has longevity.

Alot of benefits come from investing in physical bulk such as….
View attachment 408920View attachment 408921 (living an EQ from SD Chomp and offensive or defensive Lando)
View attachment 408923 (living a Knock Off from non-Choice Band variants. Even Adamant doesn’t kill at full)
View attachment 408924 View attachment 408925View attachment 408926(being able to scout these three more efficiently)

Even without SpD investment, Glowking can still tank special hits tho not as well.

Because of its bulk, offensive stats, and movepool, it can lure/trap several targets, such as…

View attachment 408936(Lives an EQ and Ice Beams it, can’t trap it tho cuz U-Turn)

View attachment 408927 (Lives an EQ from full and kills with Ice Beam + Whirlpool chip)

View attachment 408928 (If it has Flamethrower)

View attachment 408929(EQ 2HKOs)

View attachment 408930(If it has Psychic and SpD drop procs)

View attachment 408931(Beats it 1v1)

View attachment 408932(Focus Blast + Whirlpool kills it, and it lives a Knock at full)

The others like Clef and Fini are hit by Sludge Bomb, but they are unlikely to stay in vs Glowking, in case they do you can punish them for it.

With the fact that it can trap these highly relevant targets and while still providing defensive utility afterwards is nice.

I used Whirlpool Glowking with other offensive threats but I find its pairing with Koko to be the best since it benefits the most out of its checks being removed. Some others that benefit from it includes…

View attachment 408937(Harder to check without Tran or Pex in the picture)
View attachment 408938(Appreciates the removal of Tran and Glowking. As well as the removal of Pex if it isn’t running Thunder)
View attachment 408939(If Weavile is lured and killed, it becomes much harder to check. Plus Tran and Pex being removed is great)
View attachment 408940 (Not an offensive threat but it appreciates not having to worry about Tran. Plus it appreciates Glowking being able to scout Surging Strikes/Close Comabts)
View attachment 408941(No Lando/Chomp in the picture is always nice)
View attachment 408942(Traps Ferro/Lando/Tran/Pex. Harder to dance around, the better)
View attachment 408943(No Ferro or Chomp to cut off your Meteor Beam antics)
View attachment 408944(Also not an offensive threat but it has nice defensive synergy, forms a regen core, and appreciates Tran and Glowking being deleted)
View attachment 408945(Without Ferro/Glowking/Pex, Scarf and CM Fini becomes a scary cleaner. Or if you are a mad with power, you can run both Whirlpool Fini and Glowking. Add in Zone for maximum trapping)
View attachment 408946(CB Tini + Tranless team = haha gottem ggs)
View attachment 408947(Glowking traps Tran or Chomp, Volc sweeps. Do I have to say anything else?)
View attachment 408948(Less grounds = less worries)

Even in mus where Glowking couldn’t trap anything, Whirlpool’s chip dmg and Glowking’s offensive/defensive utility means that it will still be an asset on teams.

I could provide calcs but I’m too lazy rn. Just know that it lives Chomp EQ even after rocks.

Now this is a really interesting set! I honestly haven't really seen PhysDef Glowking before and seeing your post has definitely made me interested in giving it a try.

As for the survey results, it's really awesome to see so many people finding the tier enjoyable as they do. Post Kyurem has been the best state the tier has been in all generation, at least I feel so. I said it before but it really feels like there is much more room for building and innovation, and I think that is great.

I am really looking forward to seeing what people come up with in the future.

 

[min min]

This is an awesome discussion prompt, and I'd like to add my 2 cents into it after having done a lot of experimenting with weird stuff lately and watching SPL games to really help guide my thinking. So, I'd like to present: Aegislash, bar none the most slept on Pokemon in this tier.



A lot of my acquaintances are familiar with my stance on this Pokemon, and have endured quite a bit of discussion from me regarding it. It's a Pokemon that has had no tour breakout as of yet, but despite that, it is one I adamantly believe to be a presence in the metagame with untapped potential.

tried building around this on a whim since the replays in this post are from 2021. basically this is super good to pilot rn, takes advantage of the rising lele trend and breaks it over its nonexistent knees. this makes double ghost quite buildable, as you get to use a balance core that might not have a 100% lele matchup, and secure the winning matchup with aegi.

here's a recent replay, showing a team getting completely blanked by substitute: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1517703865

one minor downside so far is that you're not necessarily faster than spdef lando, so chipping it down with repeated shadow balls is going to require some team support, but that's not really an issue as lando has been prime knock off/toxic bait since the beginning of the year. looking fwd to seeing more aegi on the ladder, it's incredibly slept on right now

 

[Undorian]

I wanted to make a post to sort out my thoughts about a Pokémon I'm feeling uncertain about. Please feel free to both disagree and expand upon it.

Buzzwole @ Rocky Helmet / Heavy-Duty Boots / Choice Band / Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
- Close Combat / Drain Punch
- Roost
- Ice Punch
- Thunder Punch / Leech Life / Earthquake

The current usage and winrate statistics in the SPL speak for themselves, the Schwarzenegger mosquito is getting a lot of appreciation lately:

Here's my take: I don't think

is a very outstanding Pokémon, personally. It is currently ranked B+ on the SS OU viability rankings page, a place that I personally feel suits it largely fine.

Despite its high attack stat and wide coverage, it can't serve well as a win-con due to its sub-par speed and lack of better set-up moves than Bulk Up. Trying to make progress against opposing teams with it often boils down to a Gambit Roulette, as a large portion of the metagame resists its STAB moves or takes bearable damage from them, so it must use the correct coverage move at the correct time. It also lacks Knock Off to make reliable progress and Toxic isn't ideal for it, as many of its switch-ins (

,

,

,

,

) fail to be affected by it. On top of that, Buzzwole sports a number of shortcomings as a defensive pivot itself, notably a vulnerability to entry hazards (Heavy-Duty Boots help here, but Buzzwole is very prone to being knocked) and status itself. It also lacks a pivoting move to help generate momentum for its team. All this contributes to the image of a Pokémon that reliably performs its defensive role, but is a huge momentum drain on its team and is difficult to get creative with.

So why does Buzzwole feel so good right now?

It is no secret that this Pokémon is currently terrorizing the tier. And Buzzwole just happens to the highest-ranked Pokémon in the tier that can comfortably stomach Weavile's attacks, has access to reliable recovery in Roost and can actually threaten it back with its own attacks. Other Weavile checks either lack longevity (

,

,

,

), fail to actually force it out reliably (

), or get chipped too quickly and subsequently overwhelmed (

,

).

Buzzwole currently feels to me a bit similar to Hippowdon in earlier renditions of the metagame. It is experiencing a surge, not because it is an amazing Pokémon, but because of certain offensive threats that desperately need to answered. And because people find the more easily accessible, creative Pokémon to be an insufficient solution, they fall back on an straight-forward physical tank with reliable recovery. A similar, if weaker trend can be observed with

, another Pokémon who can boast the ability to reliably and repeatedly answer Weavile:

So, my question is: Is the tier headed for another offensive crisis after the Kyurem incident?

Thank you for reading, and have a nice day.

 

[Lord Xen III]

I'm curious about the qualified playerbase's thoughts on Weavile from recent survey. I have definitely felt Weavile's pressure in the teambuilder, but not that much more than other metagame-defining threats like Pult, Volcarona, and Urshifu. It has lots of checks in both offensive and bulkier playstyles , including Buzzwole, Pdef Flame body Rocky helmet Tran, Nine-tails Alola, Blaziken, Scizor, Urshifu, Melmetal, Bisharp, Toxapex, Tapu Fini, Metal Birds, and can be revenged most of the time by things like Scarf Lele. Triple Axel in particular is punished by Rocky Helmet and weavile is relatively frail so on Band Sets, combined with the weakness to SR, Weavile often gets worn down relatively quickly. SD/Heavy duty boot sets are nice but it often struggles with fitting its useful coverage moves like Aerial Ace, Poison Jab, Low Kick, and PsychoCut to get past a few of the checks listed or if foregoing SD the wall-breaking prowess is notably reduced.