Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion (Usage stats in post #944)

[TiyaTiya]

I have some ideas that I want to share. I don't think all 3 should be implemented, but I do think something should be done.

Is it possible to mod dynamax/gigantamax effects so that only the first max move gets the bonus? Like Greed said, being able to set terrain or weather then activate that pokemon's 2x speed is a huge advantage

AND thats only on one turn...

oh right, maxing has two more turns which is way too snowbally

Let me also talk more about how choice items work with dynamax.

I think that there should be some kind of clause where you can't dynamax with choice item users.

My reasoning is this:

Before players could scout for choice moves or predict which one they were going to use. and with dynamax, players can now PUNISH the other player for making the better move.

Let's say Ferro uses protect on a choice banded crunch from a Charizard because they predicted a switch in to a psychic type or something. Under normal circumstances, you're rewarded and get a free turn because the other trainer will most likely swap out Charizard.

But now...

bam! dynamax! Charizard can use all 4 moves again.

Max Fire

Ferrothorn dead

Finally, look into locking dynamax behind a certain turn count? This one is self explanatory, say its locked behind turn 25. Players can now only dynamax after 25th turn.

This makes it act like a comeback mechanic or game winner like how I imagine it was supposed to be.

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

Hi, I've laddered an unhealthy amount and still haven't reached #1, but here are my thoughts anyway. I've built several teams, but nothing outside of CorviDittoPex.

Teams:
https://pokepast.es/b83e5b6b17bcb575

This is the final iteration of my first team; it's not the best, just there for context. The only Pokemon change was Hawlucha -> Mandibuzz -> Corviknight. Before release, I'd been theorycrafting anti-Dynamax measures, and I thought some form of Sash-spam akin to FLCL's early XY team would be cool. I eventually came to realize that hazard control is too difficult against the type of teams you need Sash for, though, not to mention certain Dynamax users were too bulky to revenge with unboosted mons. Despite the dearth of Ghost-resists, Gengar and Aegislash started feeling fairly low impact, especially at the higher ends of the ladder.

https://pokepast.es/7795ac7c6127fd5d

This is the team I'm currently spamming right now. I haven't bothered to make a team without DittoCorviPex; it just feels like the optimal balance archetype, but I think the metagame is shifting accordingly. Shuca Pex is something I haven't been seeing much of, but I think it's almost necessary for Darmanitan. I stole the U-turn Corviknight from Updated Kanto, and I haven't felt so strongly inclined to use any other set (though that's changing). You can generally U-turn to something more stupid, and you can do stuff like tank a Pex burn and U-turn around with Ditto/Pex to stall an enemy Pex who's just sitting there.

Random assorted meta thoughts/tricks:

- If the enemy Ditto copies a Ghost, you can go to your own Ditto on Shadow Ball and spam Transform. Easier if you have a Pex to scout/pivot.
- Speed creep your Pex to win DittoPex mirrors that are becoming more and more common. The strategy is generally to copy Pex and spam its Scald; might vary depending on other Pokemon present.
- You can set up your terrain with some other Dynamax mon and get Hawlucha in later to activate your seed. I've done this a couple of times with Dragapult, but it might be even more reliable on a team with Toxicitry or some other Electric users.
- Random semi-fat stuff that are resilient to stall are becoming harder and harder to deal with, including LO Clefable, some Hatterene variants, and Conkeldurr (the biggest cost of running U-turn Corv). For the former two, I think Iron Head might be worth considering.
- I held the belief that physical Dragapult was overrated day 1, and I thought the rise of Specs Dragapult was going to end up proving me right. However, I've been running into Substitute sets more and more to the point that Scarf Dragapult is looking more and more appealing
- Rain is still viable and stall isn't
- Overrated mons: Physical Dragapult (pending), Corsola (too passive without passive recovery), Gyarados (run more Pex because 70% are running EQ-less)
- Underrated/correctly-rated mons: Seismitoad, Clefable, Mandibuzz, Crawdaunt, the fossils

On Dynamax:

Leaning a straight ban, but it's not a black-and-white decision, and I'll be sad to see it go if it does so because it provided a lot of unprecedented in-battle strategical depth. Getting your once-assumed sweep stopped by a Dynamax multiple times was humbling for me, but play enough, and it stops happening. You begin to notice common Dynamax play patterns and respond to them; e.g. choiced users like Darmanitan/Dragapult too willingly locking themselves into moves just because they plan on Dynamaxing next turn and nuking your resists. Beyond using the mechanic to augment a sweep, there's been plenty of interesting tactics that have developed in this metagame: blowing your Dynamax early on to chunk/eliminate a problem wall, circumventing choice mechanics, and defensively Dynamaxing to counter other Dynamaxes. Granted, all these things have been brought up as frustrating/broken, but I'll stand by the notion that I think they're engaging. The dealbreaker for me is that all this does come at the cost of other aspects of the game that are also worth measuring; that is to say, we're always compromising between measuring short-term, turn-by-turn play compared to long-term execution (the tactics vs strategy dichotomy). When it comes to Dynamaxing, I'm inclined to think the mechanic places too much of a reward on short-term play to the point that long-term execution becomes too much of a diminished factor.

 

[UnfortunateSal]

honestly... i think that people are seriously suggesting silly contrived complex bans and suggestions to nerf dynamax without removing it outright such as "ban dynamax on the ladder but not tournaments" and "allow dynamax but ban the usage of more than one move while dynamaxed" proves jow broken it is more than anything.

just ban dynamax

 

[NuttyRabbit]

I have some ideas that I want to share. I don't think all 3 should be implemented, but I do think something should be done.

Is it possible to mod dynamax/gigantamax effects so that only the first max move gets the bonus? Like Greed said, being able to set terrain or weather then activate that pokemon's 2x speed is a huge advantage

AND thats only on one turn...

oh right, maxing has two more turns which is way too snowbally

Let me also talk more about how choice items work with dynamax.

I think that there should be some kind of clause where you can't dynamax with choice item users.

My reasoning is this:

Before players could scout for choice moves or predict which one they were going to use. and with dynamax, players can now PUNISH the other player for making the better move.

Let's say Ferro uses protect on a choice banded crunch from a Charizard because they predicted a switch in to a psychic type or something. Under normal circumstances, you're rewarded and get a free turn because the other trainer will most likely swap out Charizard.

But now...

bam! dynamax! Charizard can use all 4 moves again.

Max Fire

Ferrothorn dead

Finally, look into locking dynamax behind a certain turn count? This one is self explanatory, say its locked behind turn 25. Players can now only dynamax after 25th turn.

This makes it act like a comeback mechanic or game winner like how I imagine it was supposed to be.

Your solutions would not only involve actively changing cart mechanics, but also fall into the realm of complex bans, which we're desperately trying to avoid at this juncture.

Also so this isn't a one-liner, while I haven't gotten to play too much OU as of late, there's been a particular set I've been falling in love with : Sub-Bulk Up Corviknight

Corviknight (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 212 SpD / 40 Spe
Careful Nature
- Substitute
- Bulk Up
- Brave Bird
- Roost

While this isn't an original set by any means (This isn't even my spread), I still think it's something worth bringing up, as it's not only an excellent check/counter to top threats like Excadrill and Gyarados, but it's a potent win condition in its own right, especially against fat balance teams thanks to Pressure, which lets it PP stall Pokemon like Toxapex.

Forgive the lack of replays as I'm still low ladder and I've forgotten to save a lot of my wins with it, but the bulk of my current wins can be attributed to this set

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

why do you weirdos care about keeping an obviously fundamentally broken mechanic in the tier just b/c it's the flagship gimmick for a fucking kids game. what is wrong with you stop that shit please. If you're that invested in it just play the actual wi fi games

 

[Pabloaram]

https://pokepast.es/7795ac7c6127fd5d

This is the team I'm currently spamming right now. I haven't bothered to make a team without DittoCorviPex; it just feels like the optimal balance archetype, but I think the metagame is shifting accordingly. Shuca Pex is something I haven't been seeing much of, but I think it's almost necessary for Darmanitan. I stole the U-turn Corviknight from Updated Kanto, and I haven't felt so strongly inclined to use any other set (though that's changing). You can generally U-turn to something more stupid, and you can do stuff like tank a Pex burn and U-turn around with Ditto/Pex to stall an enemy Pex who's just sitting there.

Some notes of this team.. You are to much weak to Toxtricity... Toxapex and Corviknight give free switch-in to him and you have to predict if he click Boomburst or Overdrive
I run a specs set and they 2HKO all of your mon...

 

[Marenatha]

I just realized we lost unaware clefable (unreleased hidden ability). Goodbye favorite hawlucha check.

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

Some notes of this team.. You are to much weak to Toxtricity... Toxapex and Corviknight give free switch-in to him and you have to predict if he click Boomburst or Overdrive
I run a specs set and they 2HKO all of your mon...

Excadrill and Dragapult both get at least one switch-in, and I am confident enough to believe in my ability to, on a semi-consistent basis, predict which between Boomburst/Overdrive a player will click based on the current game state and what tendencies they've exhibited in the preceding turns (most players click Boomburst if they come in on Toxapex and see a Ground-type, for instance). But for the most part, what matters is that it's ouplayable, which is about as good as you can ask for with all the threats in this current metagame. I will say that the more and more Toxtricity I see, the less inclined I feel to use Hawlucha.

 

[Pabloaram]

I have playing some low ladder and this mon is breaking many team

Toxtri (Toxtricity-Low-Key) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Punk Rock
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Overdrive
- Volt Switch
- Sludge Wave

Boomburst, busted by Punk Rock, is so hard to wall if you not are a Ghost- or Spdef Ferro
He is "slow" (base 75) but he have free switch in Pex (absorving tox spikes btw), Corv, G-Weezing, all the fairy.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

I have playing some low ladder and this mon is breaking many team

Toxtri (Toxtricity-Low-Key) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Punk Rock
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Overdrive
- Volt Switch
- Sludge Wave

Boomburst, busted by Punk Rock, is so hard to wall if you not are a Ghost- or Spdef Ferro
He is "slow" (base 75) but he have free switch in Pex (absorving tox spikes btw), Corv, G-Weezing, all the fairy.

There's no reason to use Low Key over Amped. On the contrary, unless you're somehow making use of Venom Drench or Magnetic Flux, you should always use the Amped form, as using Low Key will immediately inform your opponent that you definitely don't have Shift Gear. It's like how in USUM, you should always use a male non-shiny Greninja to maintain the uncertainty of Ash vs Protean.

 

[Pabloaram]

Excadrill and Dragapult both get at least one switch-in, and I am confident enough to believe in my ability to, on a semi-consistent basis, predict which between Boomburst/Overdrive a player will click based on the current game state and what tendencies they've exhibited in the preceding turns (most players click Boomburst if they come in on Toxapex and see a Ground-type, for instance). But for the most part, what matters is that it's ouplayable, which is about as good as you can ask for with all the threats in this current metagame. I will say that the more and more Toxtricity I see, the less inclined I feel to use Hawlucha.

Of course prediction is a must in competitive pokemon. Many Hawlucha use Thunder Punch insted of Zen Headbutt, idk why because Electric Terrain boost electric moves (superefective against Haw), however Psyquic Terrain boost phyquic moves insted, but also block priority making him even harder to check and not being stop by the weird typing of Toxtricity.

 

[Pabloaram]

There's no reason to use Low Key over Amped. On the contrary, unless you're somehow making use of Venom Drench or Magnetic Flux, you should always use the Amped form, as using Low Key will immediately inform your opponent that you definitely don't have Shift Gear. It's like how in USUM, you should always use a male non-shiny Greninja to maintain the uncertainty of Ash vs Protean.

Ty.. i think i look better lol

 

[kirigherkins]

That said, where is the fine line between what is "competitive" and what is "fun"? Are we going to consider isolating something away from the meta because it isn't as fun?

You note that "fun" is subjective, but do we take measures against something because it causes folks to leave the meta in droves?

That's my main concern; I know if a non-dmax ladder went live, I'd go play that instead. There's no way to know how many other players are inclined to do the same, outside of a poll or seeing the numbers after implementation. It'd be sad to see a playerbase split between the 'real' game and what would essentially be an alternate universe SwSh where dmax never happened, but it might be for the best.

I think fun and competition are very tightly interlinked, but even a hyper-competitive perfectly-balanced meta might stop being fun if it gets too stale and overcentralized. Will that happen with dmax? Tough to say...I must admit I'm a little bored of seeing the exact same Darm set eight out of ten games, so I really hope it gets the boot. It deals 40.7 - 48.3% to max-def Rotom-W with U-Turn.

never-ending Dynamax argument

If it stays in (and even if it doesn't) I get the feeling the Dynamax argument will continue until the next generation lol. This has to be the most controversial mechanic in series history at this point. I totally get why someone might want a dmax-specific thread, as it's a more general topic, but any discussion is bound to dip in and out of general/specific so we may very well end up with two slightly different yet mostly similar threads to watch.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

Of course prediction is a must in competitive pokemon. Many Hawlucha use Thunder Punch insted of Zen Headbutt, idk why because Electric Terrain boost electric moves (superefective against Haw), however Psyquic Terrain boost phyquic moves insted, but also block priority making him even harder to check and not being stop by the weird typing of Toxtricity.

Hawlucha is weak to Psychic as well, but whether or not you're boosting incoming super effective hits doesn't really matter when you're on the frailer side like Hawlucha. Psychic Terrain also doesn't provide Hawlucha with any protection against priority moves as it isn't grounded.

The main reasons Hawlucha runs either Thunder Punch or Zen Headbutt are as coverage and to set up terrain while Dynamaxed to activate a held terrain seed. Both perform the latter job equally well (though the two seeds boost different defensive stats), but Thunder Punch is generally superior as coverage. Both hit Toxapex, but while Zen Headbutt hits Toxtricity, Thunder Punch hits Gyarados, as well as hitting Corviknight harder than Close Combat while Dynamaxed. Toxtricity is rare, while Gyarados and Corviknight are very common.

 

[masterball200]

I'm surprised not many people have brought up....

Sure its stats leave a bit to be desired, but boosted Fishious Rend wrecks. It already has a decent BP of 85 to start with, and if Dracovish goes first it doubles to 170. Add Strong Jaw to that and...yep its max power already. I didn't even mention STAB yet, which is a testament to how strong said move is. And it hits pretty much the entire tier minus immunities (which there are not many....). And now you're probably thinking....75 base speed though? Okay, pretty much every relevant wall is outsped by it, especially at max Speed (272 - 252 EVs w/ a Jolly Nature), and there's also speed control options, my favorite being Sticky Web. So yeah, there are ways to get that 170 BP Fishious Rend off.

And 'cause Fishious Rend is so powerful, it's probably the only move it needs, so a typical Choice Band set would be as follows:

Dracovish @ Choice Band
Ability: Strong Jaw
EVs: 252 Atk/4 Def/252 Spe
Adamant Nature
-Fishious Rend
-Filler
-Filler
-Filler

Specialized coverage moves can be used, like Earthquake for Electric-types, Psychic Fangs for Toxapex, Crunch for Water Absorb Jellicent, and Ice Fang to more reliably hit Dragons super effectively ('cause who likes getting locked into Outrage?). I never knew a Pokemon who could live so miserably could be this good.

Ya wanna see me clap a G-max Centiskorch? https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1015305778

 

[GreenION]

I feel that the arguments on both sides regarding Dynamaxing are too biased for the sides to truly understand what this means for the meta. Dynamaxing was a means to replace the lost firepower that Mega Evos and Z-moves brought, while essentially combining them in a more duration-based manner. I think it is great because it essentially adds a sense of unpredictability that, let's face it, Mega Evo and Z-moves didn't have. People knew when you would mega evolve and use a z-move. This dynamic adds more insanity and requires more critical thinking. It also adds a sense of creativity because now we can see how the OU and other metas truly take shape. I think we should let the meta take shape before making a decision whether or not to ban it.

https://pokepast.es/159602b9133d648b

At the start of this gen, I wanted to see what I do with Ditto plus a bulky core, and something I saw while laddering was that Dynamaxing can add a sense of danger because literally anything can become a sweeper and it is so awesome to see, because now we won't become reliant on a good mega or an op move, they shift the momentum of a match as it was intended to be. Dragapult can 6-0, Darm can 6-0, Ditto can reverse sweep, hell, even CORVI can pick up a 6-0. It makes this gen so unpredictable but fun at the same time. Let's enjoy how wild it is lads. :)

Anybody who uses the team please let me know how it is!!!

 

[manyproblems]

Gen 8 OU on release is more balanced than 3 years into Gen 7 OU.

Toxapex imo is the best mon going around, bit like Lando-T it checks a huge amount of the meta and the best answer for GDarm. Bunker also helps vs Dmax. Other S Tier canditates would be Hawluncha, Gyarados, Ditto, Excadrill, Aegislash and G-Darm. I hesitate to run a team wihtout Pex largely because of GDarm.

I really hope we don't have to deal with a year of Dugtrio in the meta. Dug+Stall is the same cancer it was last gen. We lost more offensive threats than defensive threats, giving Dug Stall an easier time.

As for Dynamax, it's hard to see it stay (Airstream is stupid), but it needs at least a few more weeks.

 

[GreenION]

Gen 8 OU on release is more balanced than 3 years into Gen 7 OU.

Toxapex imo is the best mon going around, bit like Lando-T it checks a huge amount of the meta and the best answer for GDarm. Bunker also helps vs Dmax. Other S Tier canditates would be Hawluncha, Gyarados, Ditto, Excadrill, Aegislash and G-Darm. I hesitate to run a team wihtout Pex largely because of GDarm.

I really hope we don't have to deal with a year of Dugtrio in the meta. Dug+Stall is the same cancer it was last gen. We lost more offensive threats than defensive threats, giving Dug Stall an easier time.

As for Dynamax, it's hard to see it stay (Airstream is stupid), but it needs at least a few more weeks.

As long as you have a dual threat combo of say, Hatterene + Darm, you will be perfectly fine.

 

[oreofestar]

I do not know why people continue to ask about different ways to modify the mechanic to make it weaker (something that won't be done) instead of just admitting the mechanic is broken. If you think it isn't broken fine, talk about what you think the counterplay is and why you think it isn't broken but please stop bringing up all these different ways to nerf the mechanic by modifying how it works.

 

[Vengeance417]

Avalugg @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Def / 240 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Recover
- Body Press / Earthquake
- Avalanche

Been using this mon on a rain team as a means to successfully pivot into broken Galarian Darmanitan. Body Press gives it something to do against Ferrothorn and other opposing Steel-types, but Earthquake is cool to snipe Aegislash-Blade. EVs are meant to survive a Modest Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor to OHKO back with Avalanche, and Banded Darmanitan-G's Flare Blitz is only a 3HKO w/ Rain up. Ability would be Sturdy if it was released as well as just using a near-max defense spread to tackle Darm better, but at least Own Tempo blocks Intimidate so that's something I guess.

 

[Zentrius]

regarding dynamax and its potential ban: please do not use the "mechanic that defines the generation" argument as a major reasoning when it comes to keep it in the metagame. please. look what happened in SM with z-moves and (to a lesser extent) BW with weather abbilities. it is clear as day that the mechanic is broken as fuck and that it allows several pokemon to run rampant (gyara, barraskewda, hawlucha, etc) right now with very little amount of skill. if dynamax is kept in the meta then the abusers of said mechanic will need to be tested and potentially banned, and with those out of the map, i am 100% sure new abusers will arise, coming to the conclusion that dynamax was actually what broke a ton of relevant mons in the meta which could be maneagable without dyanamax present. i believe keeping dynamax for too long will mess up the metagame in the long run and waste a fuckton of time due to the amount of suspect tests/bans that will take place and the evental re-test of banned pokemon once it is banned.

we are in real good time in order to improve the future of this metagame drastically. who gives a fuck if dynamax is a huge part of generation 8 when the resulting metagame is a complete mess because of the mechanic. if you are so adamant about this mechanic staying then pls go and play in the actual cartridge.

 

[TPP]

While I appreciate people coming up with unique solutions to maintain dynamax and/or gigantamax, I would rather have the discussion focus on the tier/metagame itself rather than the mechanic. Whether you love dynamax or hate it, please refrain from posting your personal method of "fixing" it. This isn't to say you can't share a set or strategy to handle opposing threats that involve dynamax. If you wish to talk about dynamax, then please make sure that you are adding something new to the discussion, as we have already had numerous people give their take on the mechanic.

I'll go ahead and take this moment to mention that I have updated the first post to include new items, the usage stats Hogg posted with the top 10 most used Mons, and a third party damage calculator that contains gen 8 mons. I don't believe it is 100% ready (some abilities may be missing), but it should suffice for now.

Finally, as Jordy said earlier, please do not post 1 liners or small posts that add nothing to the discussion. You are free to react to other posts, and should you wish to reply, then make sure it is worthwhile.

That is all. Have a good night and carry on.

 

[Komodo_Drogo]

Okay, I'll admit I haven't been playing much to get a full on accurate view of everything, but even with my limited personal experience, I'd say dynamax is unhealthy.

If dynamax is supposed to be a replacement for zmoves/megas, it should be treated similarly not fiddled around with to see what works. Z-moves were kept as a whole and megas were for the most part kept, we couldn't fiddle around with them to see what worked and they were always at 100%. The mechanics themselves were , arguably,for the most part fine, while some megas ended up banned we were certain it was the mons themselves and not just the mechanic. Dynamaxing blurs that line since every mon is able to use it and has very little if any drawback from doing so. Since every mon can use it, it adds an unhealthy amount of unpredictability, choiced mons suddenly become unchoiced and are even able to keep the benefits of their item for the first turn. Checks that you thought you had weakened enough now become checks again. Sweepers and Wallbreakers are now able to muscle past practically anything that's not dynamaxed or even able to become completely self sufficient. In the end, it just devolves to matches centered around dynamax vs dynamax, which for a good portion has already worn it's welcome.

 

[Sharqi]

In addition to what has already been said, what really bugs me the most about dynamaxing is how it overrides so many core mechanics of the game.

Phasing/Red Card? Nope
Fake Out? Nope
Protect? Nope
Letting you opponent lock himself into a move (choice items) and reacting accordingly? Nope

I know all of this has been mentioned already, but please hear me out:
It's like the developers consciously tried to prevent defensive play against dynamaxed mons by cherrypicking+disabling mechanics which would make that easier. Which is exactly what happened, if I had to guess. I feel like this really devalues these moves/items.

Dynamaxing was added so 8 year olds can have a badass overpowered mon to steamroll the team of an npc or their 8 year old friends. I don't believe it has a place in competitive play. Just get rid of it.

 

[onatolentino]

I don't see Diggersby in the viable list and I find it odd since it is really powerful. Can anyone explain to me why it is not viable?