Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion (Usage stats in post #944)

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Gonna ignore Dynamaxing til we know all of the mechanics in detail and it's implemented correctly.

I think Orbeetle may actually have a solid defensive niche. Yes, Bug/Psychic has a lot of bad weaknesses, but a 4x resist to Fighting and 2x resistance to Grass, Psychic, and Ground, are all very useful. Plus, 60/110/120 defense aren't shabby especially with Recover, base 90 Speed, the BOOTIES, and Body Press, which lets Orbeetle 2HKO Tyranitar and Bisharp while outspeeding them (and you live Sucker Punch handily). Interestingly, Orbeetle could have walled Mega Medicham, which can only beat it with Thunder Punch in Electric Terrain (and even then, a max Defensive Orbeetle set wins). Orbeetle also has access to U-Turn, meaning it isn't a total momentum sapper either.

Actually, Body Press is a big damn deal (IMO). Notably, Cofagrigus (and it's Galorian variant) and Bronzong (and Avalugg and some other notable mons) get it, letting them do serious damage (OHKO/2HKO, depending on how the mechanic works) to Tyranitar and Bisharp (and Excadrill), which earlier were huge threats that could switch in and Pursuit trap or threaten to set up.
I laddered to #1 using this team
Some replays that apparently have been uploaded can be found on the "neutrino surfer" PSreplaysite.
Thought I'd post and share it with y'all, have a great time exploring the new generation everyone, I've seen a lot already and apart from a few strong threats/mechanics it's looking very promising. Enjoy

edit; takes on the mons:
- dragapult: strong pokemon, it's better if you use the coverage, I don't feel like phantom force accomplishes too much.
- excadrill: very strong, both sand rush and mold breaker work very well, I prefer mold breaker sets so far
- gyarados: number 1 abuser of dynamax + it appreciates the new coverage in power whip a whole lot. very strong.
- mandibuzz: great defensive pick in an aegislash-metagame. Walls a lof of things, keeps hazards off the field and fp takes lives against SD'ers.
- rotom-wash: probably the best pivot in the tier? defensive looks better than offensive nasty plot so far, good mon.
- clefable: very strong. Life Orb profits so much from chansey being removed that it's gotten better by a whole lot. defensive is strong as well
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I played a little big besides the bugs.
I used (sorry) corsola stall and made it to top100 (link)

Mechanics: (bugs aside)Dynamax is so dumb lol. I swept several times thanks to dynamax+scarf ditto when my opponent tried to set up a sweeper.

Thoughts on the following mons:<br />
Toxapex: as good/annoying as usual.
Corviknight:may be a worse skarmory,but its still good and it can use bulk up and defog.
Galar Corsola:surprisingly good,very bulky rocker with eviolite+a reliable recovery move.
Mandibuzz:very good in this metagame and enjoys Heavy-duty boots. Foul play keeps you from being a set up fodder and defog helps.
Excadrill:Powerful sand rush sweeper/mold breaker rocks setter,it will be one of the best mons in the metagame.
Rotom-wash:solid pivot,decent scarf user.
Gyarados:right now pretty stupid,insane dragon dance sweeper and power whips helps with rotom wash.
Dragapult:very strong and splashable,althought its not that great against fairies and other moves are better than phantom force....
Hydreigon:Nasty plot made this thing very scary,can easily threaten teams.
Ditto:scarf+dynamax+the boost from the opposite sweeper is gg...
Aegislash:I dont know how banworthy this mon is. From what ive seen, its not that difficult to face at the moment.
Barraskewda:insanely strong rain sweeper.Very good offensive coverage+dynamax,which is almost impossible to wall.Has great speed even outside of rain

Bonus: you can still use shadow Tag and arena trap, which is so dumb XDDD.
Gonna ignore Dynamaxing til we know all of the mechanics in detail and it's implemented correctly.

I think Orbeetle may actually have a solid defensive niche. Yes, Bug/Psychic has a lot of bad weaknesses, but a 4x resist to Fighting and 2x resistance to Grass, Psychic, and Ground, are all very useful. Plus, 60/110/120 defense aren't shabby especially with Recover, base 90 Speed, the BOOTIES, and Body Press, which lets Orbeetle 2HKO Tyranitar and Bisharp while outspeeding them (and you live Sucker Punch handily). Interestingly, Orbeetle could have walled Mega Medicham, which can only beat it with Thunder Punch in Electric Terrain (and even then, a max Defensive Orbeetle set wins). Orbeetle also has access to U-Turn, meaning it isn't a total momentum sapper either.

Actually, Body Press is a big damn deal (IMO). Notably, Cofagrigus (and it's Galorian variant) and Bronzong (and Avalugg and some other notable mons) get it, letting them do serious damage (OHKO/2HKO, depending on how the mechanic works) to Tyranitar and Bisharp (and Excadrill), which earlier were huge threats that could switch in and Pursuit trap or threaten to set up.
Orbeetle also gets Sticky Web to go along with its defences, Recover and U-turn. Might be able to set webs consistently throughout a match.
On the note of starters:
Cinderace- not worth using without protean
Even though Cinderace is kinda CinderASS offensively without Protean, a heavy duty boots pivot set can be really really good at generating momentum via court change/uturn - so I believe it's worth running even just for that. It can just completely invalidate screens, webs and hazard stacking balance as long as theres a ferrothorn or something similar it can switch in on for free.
Some thoughts on a couple of mons

Dragapult might actually be pretty underrated rn. It's DD set is alright, and can put in work, but since it basically requires the use of the dynamax, its a bit limiting on your team. What I really want to discuss is its specs set, which is surprisingly working great for me. Its cool because it can run modest (its speed is so high that it still outspeeds almost anything) and because it's a great dynamax mon, since its normally middling powered moves become supercharged and it can pick its moves because of dynamax mechanics. It also doesn't completely rely on dynamaxing, since it can function as a fast cleaner without it too. Also its just generally a decenty splashable fast mon, which is actually quite rare in this meta from what I've seen.

Darmanitan might be one of, if not the most broken mon right now. It has absolutely no counters and its generally very easy to use. I've used both banded and scarfed and I think both are very good. Scarf is very good against all kinds of offence and can even go crazy vs balance, and banded beats all bulky teams singlehandledly and is almost impossible to check defensively. Its speed tier isn't even that bad in this meta since the average speed of mons is lower, which makes its job of shitting on balance even easier.

Hydreigon was very impressive in my time using it. I actually hit #1 on the nexus ladder(the one which had the mons before the normal ps server) with a team centered around specs hydra. The reason for it being so good is simply because its dark stab is very spammable, and because the max dark move lowers spdef, which means it can break through its usual checks like clefable nicely. It was just able to break though teams very easily with a good defensive backbone surrounding it, and I think it can fit into many bo/balance teams. Of course hydra also has other sets like np and scarf, but I haven't used those so I can't give my opinion on them but I imagine that they are quite good as well.

And finally, here's the mon I most wanted to discuss:
Togekiss may actually be quite a good mon in this meta, but i've seen no one use it, so i'd like to bring it up here. I got the idea to use it from looking at gyarados and how it can use its flying dynamax to boost its speed. I then thought that the combo of set up move+flying dynamax would be good, which then led me to togekiss. The set I used was air slash/fire blast/aura sphere/nasty plot with heavy duty boots to stop rocks damage. This set was working quite well from my experience, and it could set up and sweep vs balance, and still use flying max move to be annoying vs offence. Its coverage covers pretty much everything in the meta, and it can still function without dynamaxing, though its full potential lies in doing so.
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I think there's a lot of things going on with OU rn, and this will ultimately bleed into the other tiers once created.


GYARADOS- Unfortunately, flying type Max Moves are very slighty BROKEN, but the thing is, there are fewer mons than you think that can about the crap out of these moves. The main threat is Gyarados, but I think the real reason Gyarados is broken are not the flying moves, but the fact that Gyarados gets Moxie, Dragon Dance, Power Whip, and the ability to set up his own rain and speed with strong attacking moves. This ultimately does make him overpowered, and I think what we do is ban him from dynamaxing OR ban him from the OU tier. This is one of 4 mons that I think are truly too good under dynamax, and as such, I think we should treat it as we did megas- ban them from OU as that pokemon- D-max Gyarados is banned but normal Gyarados can stay (you're welcome buddy)

EXCADRILL- The problem with excadrill is that it has a weather speed boost with overpowered defensive and almost unresisted coverage (I can't think of anything that actually eats his attacks, even Corviknight goes down to a single Rock Slide +2 Dynamax Life Orb adamant, and it can't outspeed it when it's in Sand). Excadrill, however, is already proving himself to be a meta staple even this early on in the game, and he'll be viable in OU even without the ability to randomly turn into a completely uncounterable powerhouse. Rapid Spin, Mold Breaker, and Stealth Rocks keep this mon wonderful even without turning large, so we Ban D-max Excadrill but keep normal excadrill.

Although wildly undertalked about, I'm keeping this one short regardless. This thing has near perfect coverage, is super fast, super strong, and when Dynamaxed has 0 counters (I'd daresay even in Ubers). His Swift Swim + Close Combat + Liquidation is so strong, nothing wants to take a single hit from this beast. In fact, it likes you switching out, and well, once again Ban D-Max Barreskewda.

And finally, the best OU mon atm, Ditto- Although I don't think this pokemon should be banned, holy crap it's good. I just thought I'd mention it to avoid the massive outrage of the counter to all 3 of these mons. None of them live up to ditto, but ditto wouldn't be good without them, as it should be. The fact that it can dynamax after your opponent has finished, during their dynamax, before your opponent has, is amazing. Few people can counter a faster version of their own mons, especially when they have OP moves, abilities, and Dynamaxes. Keep Ditto in OU, even though it should never be even considered banning. It's just super good in the HO meta we live in right now.

Minor Problems

The bugs on showdown are what I'm going to call "minor problems." There's many pokemon that could be so much better without these problems, so please try and fix em :p

Body Press- Always does 7.3% no matter who's using it, and that's a nerf to avalugg and other big meaty physdef boys, and makes Corviknight less viable to counter Excadrill.

Octolock and Court Change not working- Makes Grapoloct and Cinderace miss out on their one niche in anything. Once these moves are in, both of these Pokemon will be usable in OU.

Toxic - No me gusta toxic on every old pokemon still. A lot of pokemon don't need it (Ferro doesn't either but of course he and pex still get it)
The game has only been out a day so far, but I feel like sash spamming is super good so far. I also feel that hazards aren't as mandatory due to how offensive games usually are. So far I've been using Hatterene, Golisopod, Mimikyu, and Reuniclus alot. Golisopod is a really nice pivot with emergency exit to get in your wallbreakers and stuff, and is the best check/counter to stuff like Darm, Exca, Barra, and almost everything physical tbh. Hatterene is a wet dream for trick-room teams and a crazy good lead and early game breaker. I expected Conk to be on every team but it's kinda below average usually due too its average typing and paper SpDef. Speaking of SpDef... specially defensive Corviknight is disgusting aids. It's Celesteela with Talonflame's movepool. No Alolan-Golem really sucks because Corviknight is on every team. I expected Darm to be busted as hell, but the only thing that I usually struggle with is G-Max Ice + the hail effect which messes up sashes and gets chip. Cursola is a cool breaker mon, I've been using Sub + Strength-Sap so far.
I've been experimenting around with a few Pokemon, so I thought I'd offer my opinions on some of them:

Ninetales-Alola @ Light Clay
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Aurora Veil
- Freeze-Dry
- Heal Bell
- Encore

I played Aurora Veil offense a lot last generation, and if I get the chance to use Alolan Ninetales again this generation, you can bet I'm going to try, and after testing it out, it's going to take a lot to convince me that AV is dead. Obviously it helps that there are several once-threats it doesn't have to worry about anymore (i.e. Kartana and Heatran), but now it has Heal Bell, and combining it with Freeze-Dry enables it to beat Rotom-W, which - to me, at least - has otherwise been a massive nuisance to face. It probably won't be a mainstay of OU, but I'd say it's still viable.

Dragapult @ Life Orb
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- U-turn
- Thunderbolt
- Dragon Darts
- Fire Blast

Since it doesn't have a very large physical movepool, I'm not feeling Dragapult as a DD sweeper. However, I am feeling it as the offensive pivot you see there. In nearly every match I've played, Dragapult has gotten me at least 1 KO (usually with Dragon Darts) and used U-Turn to successfully swing momentum back in my favor. I had a feeling when I first saw it that this was going to be a solid OU contender, and so far, my hunch has been right. I think Dragapult is here to stay, personally.

Hawlucha @ White Herb
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Acrobatics
- Thunder Punch
- U-turn

Close Combat, White Herb, and Acrobatics. It's as evil as you think it is. That is all I'm going to say.

If you played last gen, you know what this thing does already. Yes, it does the same things. Yes, it's still a bitch to play against. Yes, it can Dynamax and be even more cancerous. I'm done now.

I'll post more later.
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It's worth noting that the implementation on Showdown is incorrect and Choice items are not supposed to give their boost while Dynamaxed. It basically acts as though you are Embargoed if you're holding a choice item.

This makes a lot of things less busted than they otherwise could be (though Life Orb is still strong, especially since you only incur 5% while Dynamaxed), but conversely it also has very relevant implicatons for Ditto as counterplay because -- unless Scarf works differently to Band -- you will no longer reliably outspeed the thing you're copying.
Observations from seventeen day one games with a bad bulky offense/balance team:

Ice Darmanitan is really scary. So far about half of the ones I've faced have died to not knowing Centiskorch gets flash fire, but I don't expect that to continue.

Rain is brutal as usual. I think stacking water resists will prove to be extremely useful as it has the past few generations in OU.

Galar Rapidash is fun, but not really OU material. It's too fragile and not killy or fast enough to get any kind of a sweep going. Excited to try it in UU when it comes though.

Corvinight was surprisingly average. I only tried a physically defensive set so maybe something specially inclined will do better, but it seems like flying/steel just doesn't line up well against the general spread of attacking threats like it used to. Way more super effective and strong unresisted stabs flying around than I would have expected from past metas, and lots of strong fire/electric coverage.

I've been running Sandaconda with coil, rest and shed skin and it's done relatively well. I think it'll probably wind up being a UU mon that can hold its own in OU on the right team, if rain isn't overly prevalent.

Dynamaxing as a mechanic doesn't seem broken to me so far. It's usually pretty predictable when your opponent is going to pop it so I would just use it myself at the same time and rely on super protect and extra bulk to outlast the three turns. That said, it might be more obnoxious if I was facing teams designed to have multiple abusers and keep you guessing which would actually pop it.
i dont know how people are out here thinking dynamax isn't broken. then again, i remember people thinking mega gengar should stay OU..

corsola seems really solid, especially with knock off's distribution being nerfed pretty hard. wisp and strength sap are ridiculous utility.

ferrothorn is better than ever because hp fire is gone

i think dragapult will be what people were hoping hydreigon would be. modest specs runs through most stuff, and you can't even pursuit trap it because pursuit is gone (great idea gf)

gen 5 fighting legendaries might be really good. some of terrakions biggest issues were removed (landorus, gliscor, slowbro), scizor bullet punch is gone, etc.
virizion has some removed checks as well, might not be ou or anything though.


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I'm still really tired from my trip, so this post won't be super long, but I just wanted to talk about Gengar which is 1 of the scariest Pokemon right now.

Gengar @ Black Sludge
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hex
- Focus Blast
- Nasty Plot
- Hypnosis / Will-O-Wisp

With Nasty Plot, Gengar is 1 of the most threatening wallbreakers in the entire metagame. Because Pursuit doesn't exist in SWSH, Gengar actually has a lot of staying power and can make a lot of progress over the course of matches by crippling the opposition with Hypnosis. I've also played around with Will-O-Wisp because it cripples pretty much all checks to Stored Power Reuniclus, which makes it incredibly hard to deal with.

Black Sludge is the item I prefer because it makes Gengar a little harder to wear down, which is really nice because a lot of bulkier builds I've encountered rely on wearing it down passively in order to deal with it otherwise. Blunder Policy is also a pretty funny item on Gengar because it can sweep unprepared teams, but considering that Gengar doesn't really aim to win on the spot and moreso aims to make progress over the course of the match with inaccurate moves, I haven't found it to be super useful.

Here's the team I've been using with it. It's not the greatest team because it's really hard to account for everything but I've been doing pretty well with it and it's really fun to use from my experience.

By the way, trapping abilities are absolutely ridiculous and they should definitely be banned again.


Banned deucer.

Laddered a bit with some friends and later by myself, got to #2 of the ladder [not going to waste my time passing the #1 dude]. Also shit gxe cuz THE FUCKING mechanics / dynamax were working incorrectly for a few hours upon the release (holyshitmad)

Apart from everyone else in top 10 using HO / Stall (replay scout everyone), I actually used some pretty cool Bulky Offense (if you can even call it that) to get here. Call it what you will but I'm left with a bad taste in my mouth when people try to use no new mons HO to peak the ladder since everyone on it is usually braindead and HO is a free win, so I kinda felt happy considering I usually use boring fat shit on ladder

This is a really well built BO by my friend Lil Blaine (he can probs talk about it in more detail). Anyways, the sets are max defense ferro, specs dragapult, Expert belt Ttar w/ rocks, mixed Spdef rotom, sd drill, CM Thunder clef. Ferro + Rotom + Clef can pretty much beat any cheese but they synergize well here especially because they collectively wall ditto when transformed as Dragapult/Excadrill, so u dont fear a reverse sweep. Also has the potential to beat stall. Expert Belt Ttar is good and a cool tech as it OHKOs ferro / 2HKOs non spdef Corviknight w/ Fire Blast which is dope. the rest is standard, with max defense clef and ferro being mandatory as lil blaine made me agree, in the meta Rn.

Screen Shot 2019-11-16 at 7.10.46 PM.pngScreen Shot 2019-11-16 at 7.10.54 PM.pngScreen Shot 2019-11-16 at 7.10.50 PM.png

State of the meta
even tho SWSH has been out for a day, i got used to the mechanics on the test server (shoutouts to the devs there). This gave me a good knowledge of the metagame beforehand release and i can confidently say i have a better meta knowledge than most ppl. HO is good, stall is imo bad because you're hoping you don't get certain mons like spikes ferro or cm clef. wallbreakers exist. i think balance is also good. Excited for the future of this gen I guess

Regarding Bans / Suspect Tests I think that DARM or DRAGAPULT are pretty busted. Scarf Darm is a fucking excellent revenge killer and a wallbreaker at the same time. Dragapult just has great typing, coverage (Specs is the only set imo) and phenomenal speed tier along with great spatk. Gyarados also is ridiculous, with the real counter being Ferro or Clef. It doesn't even need to dynamax to kill Max Phys Def Rotom which is really shocking


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Just came to share my thoughts

Ban Arena Trap/Shadow Tag
We already know how much of a mess these abilities are in Gen 6/7, and now with Dynamax Duggy being able to trap and kill even more stuff now it’ll be a mess. If you’ve been around since X and Y you will already know why Shadow Tag was banned.

Don’t quickban
It is easily one of the best dynamax users in the tier with no question. But Its too early to tell if Gyarados is the problem or Dynamaxing is the issue. For Gyara, I have found viable answers to DMax Gyara like Scarf Wash, Defensive Duraludon with Tbolt, Ghost Coral, Dracozolt, and Physically Defensive Ferro. It’s probably gonna end up fantastic, but not broken.

Aegislash got nerfed hard even to not break OU
A 150>140 nerf to all of its stats except for HP and Speed is bigger than people think. It means it has a harder time breaking past Pex, and taking hits. King Shield receiving a big nerf also helps. Its one of the best answers to Lucha and one of the few ones at that.

Ban the use of dynamaxing on Barraskewda
Barraskewda is amazing with or without dynamaxing, but dynamaxing just makes it busted. We still need to wait and see if it really is broken. People have found answers to it like Jellicent so who knows.

Ban the use of dynamaxing on Lucha
Realistically the only real answer to it are stuff like Ghost Coral and Aegislash. Same thing with Barra. Amazing without it but broken with it. Its also worth noting its imo the best user of dynamaxing. It gets to abuse its fantastic offensive typing and more while breaking past all known archetypes and even ditto. This and Gyara are the ones that started the dynamax is broken bandwagon so later on I think a suspect test would be fitting.

Now for the non potentially broken stuff


Ttar lowkey got nerfed pretty hard this gen but its still a good mon no doubt. Losing Pursuit sucks but its a good check to stuff like NP Hydra and Dragapult while supporting one of the best mons rn with sand. Speaking of which.


This thing is the Lando of SwSh. Very versatile, the ever so good ground typing, amazing utility, takes on so many roles in one slot whatever its sweeper, spinner, rocker, scarfer, etc. I am positive that once things start to settle down, it’s gonna be a top tier threat no doubt.

<Pretend this is Corsola
Ferro/Pex/Corsola is an insanely good hazard stacking balance core. Ghost Coral provides rocks so Ferro can add something like Leech Seed or Protect in its arsenal and blocks spin so Ferro and Pex can stack spikes/Tspikes. Ghost Coral can also function as a solid wincon with CM + Hex. Nothing much as changed for Ferro and Pex, they still do the same thing they did in Gen 7.


Duraludon is lowkey good. Its both an offensive rocker and check to Gyarados. Steel/Dragon is amazing rn. Only thing that might keep it out is its lack of recovery and low SpD. Other than that its solid.


Galar Weezing provides a useful utility kit for bulkier teams with Will O Wisp, TSpikes, Taunt, Haze, Defog, and Misty Terrain. Also a check to Lucha which is nothing to scoff at.


Its the best offensive lead in the tier rn. Spikes was a blessing to its wide arsenal. Its simple, set rocks, then spikes, then do damage to Pex/Ferro cores, or Tbolt Gyarados.


Ironic that the mon least likely to have gotten Defog is also one of the best users of it rn. It keeps rocks that Drill and Ferro lay down off while being a fantastic wallbreaker.


I’m happy people are starting to realize how good BU Corv is. Its also a solid defogger and pivot. Taunt is just the icing on the fowl cake. This thing can setup on alot of fat stuff this gen.


Hydra is a phenomenal breaker rn. NP shreds through Ferro/Pex/Corsola cores like nobody’s business while still doing work on more offensive teams. It outspeds alot of threats like Band Darm, Gyara, Drill, and Dracozolt. It doesn’t even need Flash Cannon for Fairies as it shreds through alot of them with Dynamaxed Fire Blast and Dynamaxed Dark Pulse for Hatterene meaning it can run Roost for longevity or taunt to shutdown Haze from Pex.


NG Spencer

Banned deucer.
I've mostly been using the team I made that sayuze posted, he covered most of it but one thing I want to add about why I like it so much is it isn't bothered by ditto, they copy your drill guess what your rotom hard walls, they copy dragapult then you have clef + ttar to shut it down.

I need to make it clear how fucking good that clef set it, calm mind/thunder/moonblast/softboiled shits on everything bar like aegislash (will probably be banned anyway lul), drill and toxtricity. Ferrothorn is fodder so you dont care about not being able to hit it and dismantling pex + corviknight is invaluable. Thunder also hitting gyarados and barraskewda is very nice as moonblast doesnt quite pick up the kill. I know showdown has a lot of inaccuracies with the actual game such as pex getting knock or aegislash getting toxic and hopefully those will be fixed, but if clef is able to keep softboiled then damn thats good because its so good ignoring all the chip from spikes, sand, status, etc and having near unresisted coverage.

Dragapult was kind of disappointing to me at first when I found out its only real physical ghost stab was phantom force, I tried band didn't like it, whenever I've seen DD used or fought it myself its fallen flat but specs has consistently put in the most work for me. A good cleaner vs offense and able to lure things like ferrothorn with flamethrower make it a good choice imo. Needs something to soften up those fatter builds with like clef/mandi/pex definitely. Its got some other cool moves like thunder and hydro pump maybe it could work on rain?

Speaking of rain barraskewda is pretty fucking powerful, I haven't used it but ive seen what it can do. Perfect coverage in liquidation/cc/pjab/drill run makes it a menace to switch into and its so god damn fast nothing rkills it. Definitely the best swift swimmer in the tier and a massive threat but not unmanagable, the typical toxapex and ferro make its life harder you've gotta get mad plays right and if you guess wrong thats tough bc its super frail, even HO has tools like gyarados to not only stop it but turn it into fodder.

Speaking of HO theres a lot of fucking power out there the aforementioned gyarados, then a bunch of other shit like aegislash, bisharp, lucha, rip rillaboom ;__; that can outright win games with a well timed dynamax. Don't need to explain what these mons really do same old shit as last gen with a few new moves like whip on gyara and cc on aegi but dynamax is honestly not AS bad and banworthy as I initially thought. Being able to max protect vs threats and stall out their dynamax essentially neutralizing them is a relief seeing as they don't just get 3 free kills. Still really unpredictable seeing as ANY mon can use it, but from what I've seen (showdown still buggy) you no longer get the benefit of your held item such as life orb factored into the dynamax attack making it more managable.

Other comments: Darm is fucking powerful, trick room needs to be explored with all these slow ass mons like copperjah and hatterene, toxtricity has potential and boomburst does a good chunk to grounds like drill, could be pretty nasty paired with corviknight

Last but certainly not least: ban trapping already holy shit stag and arena trap are complete cancer we lost magnet pull and suit this gen thank god lets get rid of the other and more obnoxious forms of this uncompetitive mechanic
Seeing Corsola with a legitimate moment of OU success makes me happy. I think spinblocking will be more relevant with the Defog distribution more limited and its synergy with the cancer stall core is really good.

I am having a hard time seeing Dynamax ever being balanced. It's a really absurd game mechanic and I think we could ban ridiculous stuff like Hawlucha and Barraskewda all day and still find abusers in the tier that make the mechanic uncompetitive. Trapping really needs to go too, I think we have learnt this one the hard way.

Fusion Flare

Formerly Datsplashtho
Gonna ignore Dynamaxing til we know all of the mechanics in detail and it's implemented correctly.

I think Orbeetle may actually have a solid defensive niche. Yes, Bug/Psychic has a lot of bad weaknesses, but a 4x resist to Fighting and 2x resistance to Grass, Psychic, and Ground, are all very useful. Plus, 60/110/120 defense aren't shabby especially with Recover, base 90 Speed, the BOOTIES, and Body Press, which lets Orbeetle 2HKO Tyranitar and Bisharp while outspeeding them (and you live Sucker Punch handily). Interestingly, Orbeetle could have walled Mega Medicham, which can only beat it with Thunder Punch in Electric Terrain (and even then, a max Defensive Orbeetle set wins). Orbeetle also has access to U-Turn, meaning it isn't a total momentum sapper either.

Actually, Body Press is a big damn deal (IMO). Notably, Cofagrigus (and it's Galorian variant) and Bronzong (and Avalugg and some other notable mons) get it, letting them do serious damage (OHKO/2HKO, depending on how the mechanic works) to Tyranitar and Bisharp (and Excadrill), which earlier were huge threats that could switch in and Pursuit trap or threaten to set up.
Note: Bisharp's kinda ass in this tier, what with having no knock off and all that. It could still be good, but without knock off its kinda just not good enough.
Barraskewda @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Close Combat
- Bounce
- Psychic Fangs

You could honestly use Leftovers or another item over Life Orb, but with Dynamax Barraskewda is pretty good. I don't think it's quite on the levels of Hawlucha nor Gyarados, but it's Top 5.

Rain with Dynamaxed Waterfall
+1 Attack with Dynamaxed Close Combat
+1 Speed with Dynamaxed Bounce (also helps clear some bully Grasses).
Psychic Terrain which boosts Psychic Fangs and protects against priority attacks.

Other strong contenders are Kommo-o, Excadrill, Corviknight.

As a final note, I feel Ditto deserves a big mention because it's not only a Pokemon that can revenge some Dynamaxed boosted mons, but assuming it retains its form after Dynamaxing it can also reverse sweep too. For reference Ditto only copies the base Pokemon if the Pokemon is already Dynamaxed.
Isn't Liquidation for Barraskewda a much better option than waterfall?

PK Gaming

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The Dynamax issue is definitely more complex than it seems. If we ban it wholesale, we end up with a metagame that doesn't innovate from previous gens whatsoever. If we don't ban it, we'll end up cutting many, many Pokemon in an attempt to balance it (including fan favorites like Gyarados).

I'm aware that i'm making a false equivalency here, and "doesn't innovate from a previous gen" isn't a substantial argument. But I also can't help feel that we'll lose out in some way if we chuck the new mechanic (sort of like how in Gen V, weather was more or less broken but we accepted it and it resulted in a pretty unique mechanic).

Of course, none of that matters if it's undeniably broken, but we should take a wait and see approach and go from there.
what are the general thoughts on coalossal? i feel like it won't be great but it has a niche with good support moves like rapid spin, spikes, rocks, wisp etc. and the ability to be a check to stuff like ferrothorn and other steel types. obviously though the type can be very bad because of huge weaknesses to ground and water so i just wanted to know what people think abt the mon
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