Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion (Usage stats in post #944)

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Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
Upon further contemplation, I honest to god think that until every single last eccentricity of Dynamax is figured out and implemented on Showdown, we should NOT discuss nor make any judgments on whether it needs to be banned or not. Just recently the base power was toned down to not be as strong as Z-Moves, and right now there are mumblings on the battle mechanics research thread in OI's Sword and Shield section that the Dynamax effects only activate once per Max Move, which if true would negate stuff like Max Knuckle/Airstream snowballing or at least heavily neuter it.
 

trubbish

Banned deucer.
Upon further contemplation, I honest to god think that until every single last eccentricity of Dynamax is figured out and implemented on Showdown, we should NOT discuss nor make any judgments on whether it needs to be banned or not. Just recently the base power was toned down to not be as strong as Z-Moves, and right now there are mumblings on the battle mechanics research thread in OI's Sword and Shield section that the Dynamax effects only activate once per Max Move, which if true would negate stuff like Max Knuckle/Airstream snowballing or at least heavily neuter it.
I agree to an extent- but at the same time, discussion is just discussion. I don't think anyone is calling for any decisions to be made, obviously. If we stopped ourselves from talking about something just because we don't know every aspect of how it works, we would have nothing to talk about.

More relevant, Clefable seems to have gotten an overlooked buff in the form of the teleport mechanic changes. It's pivot sets can now upkeep the momentum since Teleport works as a non-damaging U-turn. If it's true that Dynamaxing prevents hazing, the CM sets would benefit by preserving it's boosts for atleast 3 turns.
 
More relevant, Clefable seems to have gotten an overlooked buff in the form of the teleport mechanic changes. It's pivot sets can now upkeep the momentum since Teleport works as a non-damaging U-turn. If it's true that Dynamaxing prevents hazing, the CM sets would benefit by preserving it's boosts for atleast 3 turns.
Unfort clefable also lost soft boiled so You have to rely either on moonlight or wishtect which are suboptimal :blobpensive:
 
With everything being extremely linear with either FerroPex or HO, I realized Accelgor was being rather overlooked
:accelgor:
This is a very good HO Suicide Lead imo due to having some cool techs as Spikes, T-Spikes, Yawn and Final Gambit.
Honestly, after trying it sometimes it's so useful just to sack it against a g-maxed gyarados with final gambit once it has g-maxed itself due to both HP doubling.
edit: also beartic is mad slept on
 
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I wanted to share a Dynamax I've been enjoying, especially if the snowball mechanics mentioned above turn out accurate and the usual dynamax candiates are less powerful.


Hatterene (F) @ Mind Plate
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Dazzling Gleam
- Mystical Fire
- Psychic
- Trick Room

Definitely not as flashy as Hawlucha, Excadrill, Barraskewda or Gyarados since it doesn't snowball through Max Flying or Max Fighting (or set weather), but it's disgustingly powerful as a cleaner. Due to Trick Room inverting speed, Ditto also isn't a viable countersweep option, unlike the more common max choices. Magic Bounce ensures you get off the Trick Room and then you get three turns of max moves with perfect coverage. Ideally, you go for three Psychics as the first sets up Psychic Terrain, which makes the others stupidly strong (it has 6 more SpA than Tapu Lele and we all know how hard that hit). They can switch around to try and stall it out but they're dealing with some potent offense if they do (SpD Ferro takes ~30% on the first Max Psychic if it switches in, then 45% on the second so you might not even need to predict if the steels are at ~70% - just spam Psychic).
 
Yo guys

Gardevoir @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Trace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Moonblast
- Healing Wish
- Shadow Ball/Focus Blast

This set is insane on offense, healing wish support is so juicy especially given its limited distribution, and the dynamax psychic move summons psychic terrain so you can fire off nuke psychics which is soooo nice. It can be kind of walled depending on which coverage move it decides to run but from the games I have played has turned out to be nothing short of a fantastic addition. People might argue for hatterene but not having to cater your team to trick room and having healing wish is definitely worth it imo.
 
Yo guys

Gardevoir @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Trace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Moonblast
- Healing Wish
- Shadow Ball/Focus Blast

This set is insane on offense, healing wish support is so juicy especially given its limited distribution, and the dynamax psychic move summons psychic terrain so you can fire off nuke psychics which is soooo nice. It can be kind of walled depending on which coverage move it decides to run but from the games I have played has turned out to be nothing short of a fantastic addition. People might argue for hatterene but not having to cater your team to trick room and having healing wish is definitely worth it imo.
Gardevoir gets Mystical Fire so I would definitely slash it somewhere. Doing a solid 90% to Ferrothorns trying to switch in is too good to pass up.
 
Gardevoir gets Mystical Fire so I would definitely slash it somewhere. Doing a solid 90% to Ferrothorns trying to switch in is too good to pass up.
This is true also does similar damage to shadow ball against aegislash so this is absolutely ridiculous LOL, definitely probably going to run that instead honestly, you only really needed focus blast for steel types anyways. Not to mention that the fire type dynamax is way better as well
 
Beartic @ Focus Sash
Ability: Slush Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Icicle Crash
- Superpower
- Liquidation

With the decline of any kind of hazards because the only viable one rn is basically ferrothorn, sash and sturdy are becoming more and more viable.
This set you simply max after +2 and slush rush activates and then you can spread chaos.
Unfortunately, it can't run both slush rush and swift swim, so be careful about using max geyser.
Course you might want to run swift swim anyways due to the prevalance of rain over hail and say fuck u STAB i got rain boost behind me
 
I'm waiting for Showdown to work things out before I get in on this metagame, the flaws aren't massive but it's a deterrent for now. Why does it seem like the assumption is that there are 3 Max Moves? Yes, Fighting, Flying, and Poison are the most blatantly terrifying moves, but I don't see why counter Dynamxing doesn't work. Stat lowering moves are usually suboptimal, but when they're coming alongside 140 BP attacks they are absolutely viable. Once a Dynamax ends the Pokemon you're facing loses it's most efficient setup moves, erasing their stat boosts behind them is a big deal. People ran Giga Impact for one nuke last gen, why is it unreasonable to run Double-Edge when you can give it 10 BP, no recoil, and lower speed at the same time for 3 turns. Nobody is running Harden to deal with a physical sweeper, but that's because Harden isn't a coverage/STAB option when you're not Dynamaxed and a 130 BP move during (Max Iron Head). Again, the current inaccuracy of the simulator is something that really worries me right now so I have only really touched the teambuilder. If anyone can tell me why I'm mistaken here please do.
 

HANTSUKI

Whims of Fate
is a Pre-Contributoris a Past SPL and WCoP Champion
I laddered quite a bit yesterday and ended up at #3 at some point as "jeanne gostosa". I used stall mostly and only stopped after I finally started losing with the team, lol

https://pokepast.es/f500787cb3ffdc7d

It follows the SM stall model, with at least 2 Defoggers and ways to deal with setuppers. It worked well against most part of the mons, but struggled against Darmanitan (which seems like it'll be a problem for bulky teams in general) and Gothloli (maybe Shed Shell on Pex would be better?). Another thing is the lack of Dark Resist, so it might have some troubles against Spacs Hydreigon if it gets flinches/crits/dynamax kill on Pex or even CB Ttar. Prolly it has a lot of shit to work on to actually start stalling, but it was a cool experience at least (and I'm not a stall fan). It was really easier to deal with dynamax using stall than offense at least.

And some thoughts I'd like to share:

- Corsola is incredible. It would wall almost everything physical. I decided to go with Haze instead of SR (and then having Spikes Ferro) because the meta is too unstable atm so I prefer to have all the hazers I can. With Ditto + Corsola I think I didn't have a problem with dynamax at all;
- Pex is better than in SM imo, specially when Toxic is so rare nowadays. Regen is broken and you can pivot a lot of things with Pex. Also I think Haze is necessary atm;
- Noivern was a...bad Torn-T but it worked surprisingly well. I wish Hurricane could hit more, but its speed tier is kinda useful in this meta;
- Corvknight is amazing and so is Pressure. It's so far the best Defogger to me;
- I don't feel safe without a Ditto to deal with dynamax. Dunno if I'm still bad in the gen, but I just feel like it's not a healthy mechanic.

Let's see how the gen will develop from now on, but the beginning is always the best part of any of them imo
 

Catalisador

Formerly iFeedback
Ok. So far we've all been discussing how broken Dynamax pokemon like Gyarados and Hawlucha can be. Nobody has pointed out, however, the return of a forsaken god... Bow down to your new queen, Shedinja!
With the removal of pursuit, unbanning of Dugtrio and addition of Thigh-High Boots, Shedinja stall can finally run rampant again! Here is a team I've been using so far (got me lots of rage quits): https://pokepast.es/8d1060b15cd93f4f

Corviknight @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 232 Def / 28 Spe
Impish Nature
- Brave Bird
- Roost
- Defog
- Taunt
Enough speed to creep opposing Corviknight and a few other nuisances, this mon is our main Sand check with maximum defensive investment. Defog keeps our fat pokemon healthy and less worried about hazards and keeps Dugtrio's sash intact.

Dugtrio @ Focus Sash
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Reversal
- Stone Edge
- Hone Claws
A check to pretty much any offensive mon that is able to muscle through our defensive core. Hone Claws even allows it to setup in certain circunstances and win games on it's own.

Toxapex @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 248 Def / 12 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Haze
- Scald
- Toxic Spikes
Our main check to rain, just beware of the barracuda running Psychic Fangs. Haze gets rid of any potential setuppers and Toxic Spikes supports the team with residual damage.

Shedinja @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- X-Scissor
- Protect
- Will-O-Wisp
- Shadow Sneak
Our lord and savior, now improved thanks to Thigh-High Boots (a much better name than the one we got, tbh...). Protect scouts moves and Will-o-Wisp cripples switch-ins and Steel-types that can't be poisoned. Too bad Baton Pass was quick banned, eh? So we gotta stick to X-Scissors. Hone Claws might work too, but I haven't tried it yet.

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 248 HP / 248 Def / 12 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Protect
- Moonblast
- Stealth Rock
Alright, every stall needs a pink blob and ours is Clefable. Magic Guard over Unaware so we can absorb status conditions. Stealth Rock for residual damage. Wish + Protect is its best recovery option and allows it to scout moves as well.

Ditto @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
- Transform
Ok, no Unaware Clefable means we need extra anti-setup measures. Meet Ditto, a mon that basically became Gen 8's Lando-T with Dynamax running rampant. Use this so you don't get 6-0ed by Hawlucha, basically.

Can I get your thoughts about Shedstall being back? Try out this team, it is sure to be lots of fun.
 
Toxitricity hits so damn hard, it's nuts. Specs Boomburst straight up OHKO's like 70% of stuff that doesn't resist it, also its speed stat doesn't really require timid so you can get away with being greedy. Gyarados is aids that by itself ruins most games. Dyna Corviknight just fucks up way too many teams, people started doing specially defensive sub-roost & bulk up and it just shreds balance and fatter teams. Gyara is super overcentralizing, your forced to run scarf-Ditto, and not Dyna until they Dyna because if you stall out the Dyna and bounce first you just lost. People are already starting to use the exact same formula for teams. Gyra Mew & Corvi probably have like 60% usage currently . Also I've used Hatterene a ton, and on non trick-room teams, choice-specs is really fun to mess around with all these spike Mews and Ferro, you also break stall fairly well because it's coverage is so good.
 

Zneon

Ya like jazz?
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In my opinion, I think that Unaware Clefable is a really good pick for stall in the meta because it is good at dealing with most of the Dynamax abusers, primarily being arguably the best Hawlucha check in the tier right now, and this mon has great synergy with Ditto because of this, as Hawlucha is the only Dynamax abuser that cannot be revenge killed by Ditto, and Unaware Clef has good enough bulk to live a hit and then kill Haw with a Moonblast, it is also a good soft check for Dynamax Gyara, as it can just simply Twave it and cripple it. Just because of the fact it has a decent matchup against the best Dynamax users in the meta right now, and that the fact that it has an amazing typing and good enough stat spread to live crucial hits, it has a lot of use on stall teams with its Wish and Twave support.
 
The scariest part of about dynamaxing isn't the blatantly broken abusers like Gyarados who are likely to leave or be built around but the flexibility and unpredictably of it we'll likely see more of down the line when things become more stable. The increase in bulk makes the concept of a check to a Pokemon a lot less reliable and I'm not sure if I like it.
 

Diophantine

squawk
is a Tutor

Conkeldurr @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Drain Punch / Close Combat
- Mach Punch
- Facade​

Takes hits and gives em back harder... That's it really. Complimenting his already decent physical bulk, Dynamax allows Conk to get that extra one, or even two, hits off which can leave that extra hole punched in the opponent's team. The Fighting Max-move boosts Attack too!
 
Okay, so from a person who only plays competitive Pokémon causally, here are some of my thoughts on the meta game.

Dragapult
Draga.PNG


Very good mon! Like most I thought the physical sets would be best but so far I have got the most mileage from specs. Very fast and a combination of Shadow Ball, Thunderbolt and Fire Blast allows you to break through ever present defensive core of Ferro/Pex/Corsola. That being said, I've also had great success with a banded set and the DD set is nothing to take lightly if it has the right coverage.

Galarian Corsola
Cors.PNG


Another fantastic mon! With the meta the way it is now, this mon provides great checks to Lucha and Gyra and has great utility in Stealth Rock, Will-o-Wisp and strength sap. This will become a staple on stall team.

Galaraian Darmanitan
Darm.PNG


I think everyone is starting to realise just how good this mon is. People have already talked about Gorilla tactics choice scarf to ill give my though on Zen mode. I think Zen Darm is really underrated right now! People switch out fearing scarf, giving you the opportunity to sub and from there, it can be game over! I've been played around with Sub, Belly Drum Salac berry set, which if sets up can be game over, especially with Dynamax. I've also used a sub Liechi berry set with EQ as coverage to help against Pex, which absolutely shreds teams!

Kommo-O
Komm.PNG


Another underrated Mon right now. Clangorous Soul can be absolutely deadly atm with Pex and Ferro being spammed everywhere. I've had great success with a sub, soul set, with Drain punch to recover HP but also allowing Kommo-O to use Max Knuckle to keep boosting its attack stat and sweep.

Finally some quick thoughts in Dynamanx. To me it seems pretty broken, but I'll wait and see how the metagame evolves before making my final judgement. To me it seems like Smogon is going to have a tough call to make, either banning Dynamax or banning a lot of Pokemon that abuse the mechanic. I'm not sure if there is a way to maybe restrict it, for example maybe banning Dynamax but allowing Gigantamax, since you should be able to prepare better due to only a few Pokémon getting it. Additionally, maybe banning the moves max knuckle and max airstream, since they seem to be main moves that allow certain mons to abuse the mechanic, but that may be altering the mechanic to much. Regardless, allowing choiced users to ignore their drawbacks and being tailored much more to offensive mons, I think something will need to be done about it.
 
The scariest part of about dynamaxing isn't the blatantly broken abusers like Gyarados who are likely to leave or be built around but the flexibility and unpredictably of it we'll likely see more of down the line when things become more stable. The increase in bulk makes the concept of a check to a Pokemon a lot less reliable and I'm not sure if I like it.
This honestly. I don't care how powerful it truly is these mechanics aren't healthy for a metagame. At least with Z moves, there is an opportunity cost. Dynamaxing you literally lose nothing and cam sweep, entire teams.
 
Don’t mind my barging in, just wanted to bring something up that I feel like not many people have thought about (maybe because it doesn’t actually work the way I think it does?)

Nonetheless, I’ve seen a lot of people talking about how strong d-max Gyarados and Hawlucha are. But with both of their sets being pure physical, doesn’t the unsung hero of the world eiscue just completely hard wall both of them? You would have to run hail in your set so you could continually hail during their max moves if they have something to change the terrain, but isn’t there absolutely nothing they can do to kill you? You could run some kind of pure wall, or even just go straight belly drum set if you wanted. I feel like it would force a switch every single time wasting their boosted stats and d-max for the game.

Maybe there’s just something I’m missing and this doesn’t work cause I haven’t seen anyone talking about it, but it seems decent to me. They quite literally can’t damage you.
 

earl

forced 2 wipe
is a Pre-Contributor
Don’t mind my barging in, just wanted to bring something up that I feel like not many people have thought about (maybe because it doesn’t actually work the way I think it does?)

Nonetheless, I’ve seen a lot of people talking about how strong d-max Gyarados and Hawlucha are. But with both of their sets being pure physical, doesn’t the unsung hero of the world eiscue just completely hard wall both of them? You would have to run hail in your set so you could continually hail during their max moves if they have something to change the terrain, but isn’t there absolutely nothing they can do to kill you? You could run some kind of pure wall, or even just go straight belly drum set if you wanted. I feel like it would force a switch every single time wasting their boosted stats and d-max for the game.

Maybe there’s just something I’m missing and this doesn’t work cause I haven’t seen anyone talking about it, but it seems decent to me. They quite literally can’t damage you.
Ice Head only regenerates upon hail starting, not just when hail is up. Or so I’ve been told
 
No love for Orbeetle? Let's change that! Orbeetle has an incredibly diverse movepool and has stats than range from Sp.Atk Tank, to Screen Setter. Orbeetle gains access to Recover, Infestation, and Sticky Web as Egg moves. Orbeetle has access to both Iron Defense and Calm Mind AND has Stored Power. Magic Coat annoying hazards; I know about the Heavy-Duty Boots, BUT it has a base Spe of 90, so which hazard setter is outspeeding that, not Ferrothorn, not Toxapex, not Gigalith that's for sure. Now that the positives are out of the way; now for the negatives to Orbeetle. Orbeetle has bad abilities; except in double battles when it has Telepathy. Orbeetle is still slow enough to be Taunted by a lot of the Meta. Finally Orbeetle will be counter by bulker types; that aren't super effective by it; Corviknight will make it suffer and Coalossal will make it Well Done.

Pseudo Clefable

Orbeetle @ Leftovers
Ability: Swarm
EVs 252 HP 252 Sp. Atk 4 Def
Modest Nature/Bold Nature
-Recover
-Calm Mind
-Stored Power
-Iron Defense/Bug Buzz/Psychic

Set It Up

Orbeetle @ Light Clay/Psychic Seeds
Ability: Swarm/Telepathy
EVs 252 HP 252 Def 4 Sp. Def
Calm Nature/Bold Nature
-Light Screen
-Reflect
-Psychic Terrain/Sticky Web
-U-Turn


Tikki Tank On!

Orbeetle @ Leftovers
Ability: Swarm
EVs 252 HP 252 Sp. Atk 4 Def/Sp.Def
Modest Nature
-Calm Mind
-Bug Buzz/Giga Drain
-Psychic/Psyshock
-Recover
 
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Ice Head only regenerates upon hail starting, not just when hail is up. Or so I’ve been told
WOW I’m actually so disappointed. I hadn’t heard that so I hadn’t actually tested it, it’s just been sitting in my box... when you read the ability it sounds like just when there is hail at the end of the turn...

I just tested in game and you’re correct. I am sad now. Gonna go cry a bit...
 
Clangorous Soul Kommo-o is very fun to use

Kommo-o @ Throat Spray
Ability: Soundproof
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Clangorous Soul
- Clanging Scales
- Flash Cannon/flamethrower
- Focus Blast

Throat Spray immediately activates upon setup with Clangorous Soul, and voila you are at plus 2! This is a pure special set that can sweep once the opposing team has been worn down. It is fun to use.

Also Heavy Duty Boots are an interesting thing to use on 4x weak stealth rock weak Pokemon.
 
but the flexibility and unpredictably of it we'll likely see more of down the line when things become more stable. The increase in bulk makes the concept of a check to a Pokemon a lot less reliable and I'm not sure if I like it.
Well, this instability and unpredictability makes me overjoyed. The meta has far too long been stale and predictable, which makes for an unfun and uncompetitive experience. If all you're doing is playing with numbers, where's the competition?
 

DiscoDucky

formerly eaglehawk
Clangorous Soul Kommo-o is very fun to use

Kommo-o @ Throat Spray
Ability: Soundproof
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Clangorous Soul
- Clanging Scales
- Flash Cannon/flamethrower
- Focus Blast

Throat Spray immediately activates upon setup with Clangorous Soul, and voila you are at plus 2! This is a pure special set that can sweep once the opposing team has been worn down. It is fun to use.

Also Heavy Duty Boots are an interesting thing to use on 4x weak stealth rock weak Pokemon.
Has this been tested in game?
 
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