Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion (Usage stats in post #944)

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Sayuze

Banned deucer.
Hey Sayuze, I've found this team to be relatively consistent and a great way to learn the meta. Kudos to a nice team and your willingness to share your experiences.

I'm wondering though how you deal with Hawlucha? While I know it's broken and probably won't stay too long whatever happens with Maxing, I'm curious if there's any other way than like keeping Clef healthy to Max it in response (if I were to guess) ? Thanks
ill probably make a post of the team publicly, feel free to pm me if u want me to send u the team(s). anyway dynamaxing clef / rotom as well as just keeping up momentum by doubling into dragapult is a pretty reliable way to beat it. just dont give it many free turns (like leeching it with ferro on a sub or doing minimal chip with ttar/drill not in sand)
 

Bongi

trust the process
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Granted I haven’t played much of gen 8 as of recent, but sub np togekiss is nasty af. Max airslash gives the speed boost which makes it extremely good vs slower teams. I’m sure there’s some one who optimized a better spread, but I’ve been using max hp max speed sub np flamethrower and air slash. So far I’ve been having decent success.
 
I'll edit this post later if I get any different opinions over Thanksgiving week, but so far, I think something definitely needs to go. I don't really know or particularly care if it's going to be Gyarados, Hawlucha, Barraskewda, Excadrill, or Darmanitan-G (just to list off the ones people have been complaining about the most), but the metagame is not in a particularly healthy state as it is overwhelmingly skewed towards offense builds leaving no room for defense to shine.

I've been trying stall this generation and my general consensus is that the current environment is way too oppressive. I will admit, stall has acquired a lot of nice tools this generation, and games are not unwinnable at all. But even still, Gen 8 stall is a shadow of past generation's stall builds at the moment. I want to list stall's toys off and go over each of them really quickly just so this doesn't sound like the angery rant of a stall ladder whore and that I'm really thinking this through.
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    - Corsola-G is really the crown jewel of stall at the moment and is pretty much Gen 8's Chansey substitute (although Chansola-G is probably going to be a nasty good core in a legacy format if Showdown decides to make one). Corsola-G is blessed with a wall's wet dream of a movepool only really losing out on not having Toxic, but still having access to Will-O-Wisp, Stealth Rocks, and Strength Sap, probably one of the best healing moves in the game ever and these are only the most commonly used moves for Corsola-G. It also has access to Hex to make use of its hazard spreading (although the usefulness of this is debatable), Haze, and Destiny Bond which I'm surprised are so overlooked. Corsola-G is the best thing that has ever happened to stall this generation and Corsola itself. It's kind of amazing.
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    - Corviknight is pretty much reduceable to a discount Skarmory (although it has the unique niche of being able to boost with Bulk up). Body Press is... cool (?), but it doesn't make it a selling point over Skarm. Skarm also sets hazards which Corviknight cannot, so those tasks need to be relegated to other teammates. All these things definitely do not make Corviknight a bad defogger. I love my Defog Corviknight.
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    - After seeing this thing's coverage, I thought Appletun was going to be doomed to a life of mediocrity spamming Apple Acid because it's the only thing it has going for it. Turns out Appletun may be finding a home in stall, still spamming Apple Acid ironically. Appletun has a unique niche over the most common grass type in OU since Gen 5, Ferrothorn. First, Appletun is similar in that both annoy the hell out of everyone by spamming leech seed and utilizing their amazing typings to never die. Appletun has some unique traits though, in that its set of resistances is very different than Ferrothorn especially when using Thick Fat. Appletun has 5 resistances with Thick Fat with 3 being quad resistances which is amazing with Appletun's respectable bulk. It also is able to wear down opponents with Apple Acid. Although grass is generally considered an atrocious offensive type, Apple Acid compensates with guaranteed SpD drops meaning your damage accumulates as you spam. Lastly (because this is getting long), Appletun has reliable recovery unlike Ferrothorn in Recover. This is crucial in an environment when most Pokemon NEED to be at full to survive with all the Max moves and new Nasty Plotters flying around.
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    - Ditto is the second best of stall Pokemon blessed by the SwSh gods. Ditto is stall's only chance for survival because it can take advantage of all the new annoying boosting Pokemon out there. You just got Dynamaxed on and now there's a +3 +2 Gyarados staring you down? Go Ditto and crush it. A Polteageist just Shell Smashed on you and all your Pokemon are gonna die? Go Ditto and crush it. So Ditto copied all the opponent's boosts, but you still want more power? Guess what, you can Dynamax too!
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    /
    1574266030522.png
    - Same old same old. I don't think I need to really talk about these two out of respect for any anti-stall sentiment. I will just briefly say that Toxapex's Haze might be more necessary than ever.
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    - This Pokemon is nowhere near as useful as in Gen 7. Dynamax is too powerful for it, the increase in bulk Dynamax gives prevent's Dugtrio from having the same effect as it did with Z-moves. Z-moves were nukes, but at least they only needed to do 100% instead of 200% to get rid of something annoying. Also Duggy mostly existed as a way for stall to trap and break opposing walls. Anything Duggy wants to trap in this generation so far wants to and can kill it.
So stall lost out on some utilities, but new Pokemon are compensating for losses to some degree. What's the problem then?


PEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
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Dynamax.
Or, at least, that's the main issue.

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- Darmanitan-G is also a problem which I'm assuming is going to be inevitable since I don't think players are going to find it banworthy, but the mere existence of Darmanitan-G makes stall teams wake up in a freezing cold sweat. Zen mode is "easier" to deal with because most run BD + SubSalac. If you get rid of the substitute, in comes Ditto and goodbye to every resist ever because you sure as hell aren't getting outsped. GT is much harder to deal with first off because you don't know what kind of GT it's going to be. Ditto isn't a safe revenge killer because if Darm is running Scarf instead of Band, you're facing a 50/50 shot of just dying which stall can't risk. On the other hand, if Darmanitan is banded, nothing is taking the hits. Not Corsola, not Ferrothorn, not Corviknight, nothing.

252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Corsola: 138-163 (42.5 - 50.3%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (note this is WITH max defense. A lot of Corsolas are running max SpD, so you can't switch in.)

252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Ferrothorn: 144-171 (40.9 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (Flare blitz is an obvious F for Ferro, but Icicle Crash is just barely a 3HKO with max Def which you aren't always running)

252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 288-340 (72 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 153-181 (38.2 - 45.2%) -- 10.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Gorilla Tactics Darmanitan Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Thick Fat Appletun: 372-436 (87.7 - 102.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery So Thick fat ain't saving you)

Darmanitan can just generally switch-in for free on Stall because it's so passive by nature and click Icicle Crash. And the majority of your team won't be able to handle it after hazards damage. Don't even get me started on the flinch chance too. I can't even count the number of games I've lost to getting flinched now because you are barely healing up enough just to be able to say you switched in and didn't die during that encounter.

But anyways, we're getting sidetracked. Let's talk Dynamax.

Dynamax is the worst thing to happen to stall. For some people this is great because only cancerous people play stall. However, the declining viability of stall spells disaster for any defensively oriented playstyle like balance and even bulky offense to an extent. This is mostly due to the snowball effect that Dynamax can have on games as it can accumulate up to 3 stat boosts of choice over the duration of a Dynamax. Unfortunately, for the best users of Dynamax, most of the time, 1 or 2 of these boosts is from Max-Airstream to boost a sweeper's speed to an indomitable level and the remaining Max moves are some form of weather or terrain setting which usually end up being field effects that boost the sweeper's STAB moves. Remember this is all on top of the fact that 3 turns of Max moves is equivalent to 3 turns of Z-moves, BUT BETTER. A lot of people already hated Z-moves because the offensive orientation of them seemed to discourage defensive play, but giving any Pokemon 3 Z-moves in a row WITH added benefit is this nightmare coming to fruition.
You think I'd be finished now, but I haven't even talked about the doubled HP that a Dynamax Pokemon gets. This is the only part of Dynamax that really benefits stall at all, Ditto shenanigans aside. A Dynamaxed Pokemon has its HP doubled, which doesn't seem that important at first glance, but the number of attacks that normally do 200%+ to a bulky sweeper are few and far between.

252 SpA Rotom-Wash Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gyarados: 508-600 (153.4 - 181.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO guaranteed 2HKO after Dynamax

Edit: No, Modest doesn't help.
252+ SpA Rotom-Wash Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gyarados: 556-660 (167.9 - 199.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO guaranteed 2HKO after Dynamax

That's right. A scarfed, max SpA Rotom-Wash's 4x effective thunderbolt, can't kill a Dynamaxed Gyarados. We can't even assume Gyarados may take Stealth Rock damage because Heavy-Duty Boots exist (another thing that hurts stall). In order to even have a shot at killing Dynamax Gyarados, you need to use your own Dynamax to Max-Lightning it to kill and this is assuming you're gonna survive a Power Whip.

The worst thing is that Gyarados is the easiest Dynamax to OHKO because it at least has a 4x weakness. Barraskewda, Hawlucha, and Excadrill don't and thus are even harder to kill under Dynamax. You can't really even stall them out either because non-Max Guard protect moves break in front of Max Moves and once the ball starts rolling with any of these Dynamax sweepers, no Unaware wall is going to stop all of them. Quag loses to Gyara and Barraskewda, and Excadrill beats Clef. Hawlucha isn't quite able to break through the Unaware walls quite as well, but there's still 3 Dynamax targets that you need to cover with 2+ Pokemon.

Dynamax is also BAD on defensive Pokemon. Most of the time, you get the opportunity to live a hit from a Dynamax that would kill you, but you can't even cripple it in return because Dynamax steals away all your Recovers and you Will-O-Wisps and your Toxics and... you get the idea. No utility moves for 3 turns or else you are forced to switch. This is because you needed to sacrifice it all for a chance to survive a single hit and most Pokemon aren't built to last 3 consecutive Max Moves of beatdown with no form of recovery move anyways even with double HP. There is also a massive disincentive to switching out of a Dynamaxed wall because you're probably still looking at 1-2 turns of an opponent's Dynamax (which has already started to snowball by the way) which is more than enough to kill something else on you team that isn't Dynamaxed.

Sorry this explanation got really long, and I hope some players decided to give it a read because I think it brings up some good points for discussion.

TL;DR: Dynamax killed stall (yay?) and I'm sick and tired of seeing Galarian Darmanitan. It's Icicle Crashing my will to live.

Edit: I just saw that micro-thread about Red Card and god dammit Red Card sucks too. Why does GF want stall to be unplayable :(
 
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MikeDawg

Banned deucer.
Are there currently any plans to suspect dynamaxing, even if it's just an auxiliary ladder & thread instead of a full suspect? I ask because of the precedent set by the official gen 5 no-SR ladder, mcmeghan proposing a z-crystal test, and the unfulfilled (at the time) calls for a gen 5 no rain/sun ladder. If a major mechanic is going to be tested, it should happen relatively early on in the gen.

I'm sure it'll pop up as an OM, but there's a substantial difference between that and an OU-sanctioned ladder (even if it's temporary).

I don't necessarily think dynamaxing should be banned atm. Just wondering.
 
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Leo

after hours
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Now that the new Gen 8 Ladder replaced the old Beta I decided to give it a try and managed to get to #15 after playing for some hours between last night and today. While I tried a variety of teams I mainly stuck to 2 archetypes which I believe to be very solid in the current metagame.

https://pokepast.es/8b78266108262a0e
The first was this sand balance I put together very quickly and adjusted after some testing. Exca has a great matchup against any team lacking Corviknight and the sturdy defensive backbone keeps the broken dynamax sweepers in check. I figured this was the ideal team to start with and it delivered, this is obv no innovation since this archetype has been around pretty much since gen 8 was implemented on ps but it is one I consider to have aged decently well with the only factor I'd hold against it being the surge in Corviknight usage, which walls it effortlessly and even uses as set-up fodder if it's a Bulk Up variant.

https://pokepast.es/4230a11f42f72c77
This second team is my favorite balance to use rn and a very effective one at that. After I saw someone using this Sub Hydreigon set on ladder I decided to give it a try myself and put together this team. Hydreigon's very effective against opposing balances and an amazing dynamax recipient, with Wish support it makes for a potent wincon against other fat teams. The Aegislash set is something I had been meaning to try as well and since its main stop seemed to be Pex this was the perfect opportunity to do so, against teams without Pex it can spam SBall and CC freely behind Sub.The combination of the Pex+Clef+Corviknight backbone and Ditto is something I've seen a lot on a number of balance and stalls and it works incredibly well at holding back the offensive metagame. All in all I consider this type of balance to be one of the strongest archetypes on ladder since it has the tools to beat anything ranging from pure HO to balance and stall. The metagame is still at its earlier stages so I'd expect new team structures to pop up and gain popularity with time, specially with the amount of mons capable of punishing balance and new sets to be discovered but this is what I'm sticking with for now.

After this experience on the new ladder I gotta say I don't feel as strongly against dynamax anymore. Stuff that would run rampant in the old ladder like Hawlucha and Gyarados has been nerfed with the proper implementation of the mechanic and eventually adapted to. The mechanic itself still has some broken elements to it (i.e. choice lock break) and there's still mons like Corviknight that become incredibly unfair with dynamax so it's hard to argue for it to stay in the tier as things are.
 

Ruft

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Are there currently any plans to suspect dynamaxing, even if it's just an auxiliary ladder & thread instead of a full suspect? I ask because of the precedent set by the official gen 5 no-SR ladder, mcmeghan proposing a z-crystal test, and the unfulfilled (at the time) calls for a gen 5 no rain/sun ladder. If a major mechanic is going to be tested, it should happen relatively early on in the gen.

I'm sure it'll pop up as an OM, but there's a substantial difference between that and an OU-sanctioned ladder (even if it's temporary).

I don't personally think dynamaxing should be banned atm. Just wondering.
There is a discussion in Policy Review regarding Dynamax, not a formal ban/suspect discussion however.
 
Because that thread is locked to commoners, I'll post my thoughts here.

Dynamax is the big meta question right now. And my thoughts are that it does make most things broken.
BUT
that does not mean that it needs to be banished.
It's really up to us what is the criteria we use to ban things here.
If we keep dyna, our criteria is no longer "does it have counterplay?" but rather, "does it have proportional risk and reward?"
While these seem similar, there are some subtle differences. Things that are more centralizing would get banned and things that are inconsistent but overpowered would stay. You could argue this leads to less skillful play. Thats not entirely true. While it leads to less skillful battling it leads to more skillful team building. A lure or niche set becomes very powerful in a meta like that and prediction is less important. This makes the game less about psychology and more about quick thinking and calculations. With the addition of dyna, there are more variables than ever to consider how to ensure a win. It is difficult and skillful to keep track of all those possibilities. On the downside, there is no longer the feeling of mindreading on simple probabilities. That could honestly be an "illusion of control" fallacy because I've never actually seen anyone good at "prediction"

imo. It should be ok to change what we deem to be ban'able. Dyna should stay in Galar OU but should not be allowed in National OU.

Note: It would help if the more over powered abusers were taken out first because it would give a better idea if the meta could be more competitive with the mechanic. If it was still a problem the more op things could just be unbanned with a dyna ban.
 
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Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
Since I'm too much of a peon to throw my hat into the ring in the policy review thread (seriously open that to the public this is way too important a discussion to be locked to a select few people), I figure I'll discuss my thoughts on Dynamax here.

After playing some more games, watching games, reading opinions, the whole deal, I fall into the camp of "I don't mind Dynamaxing being in the meta but I'd prefer if it weren't". It's an interesting mechanic that brings some cool mind games sometimes, but it also tends to centralize games around itself a bit too much and can definitely lead to some mons getting out of control. Tbh more than anything I'm just really worried about getting another Gen 7 situation where people discover the most optimal ways to abuse the mechanic over time like what was done with Z-Moves which drives the meta downward to an undesirable state but by the time that happens it's too late to do anything.

I've also heard a few people suggest banning Dynamaxing but keeping Gigantamax. Personally, I think this is a stupid idea that is being recommended solely to adhere to some vague sense of "generational flavor". "Generational flavor" is a horrible argument to keep anything when trying to run a competitive scene for this game, either ban both variants of Dynamaxing or ban neither.
 
I really want Dynamaxing to be kept otherwise Gen 8 really won't bring anything new to the table.
Every other gen brought something and one can too clearly remember thinkign Z-Moves and Megas were OP at the time.
We'll just have to adapt, first, by banning Gyara and Lucha, Corsola-G and other select mons
Smogon's commitment to maintaining competitive balance in a game that is very unbalanced does not mean we must respect and accept new gimmicks that GameFreak puts out. If you'd like to play a competitive metagame where Dynamax isn't up for the ban discussion, feel free to play VGC battles on the SwiSh VGC ladder. The discussion about the competitive ramifications of Dynamax is very nuanced, and I'd suggest hopping over here to better familiarize yourself with the entire issue at hand.
 
Smogon's commitment to maintaining competitive balance in a game that is very unbalanced does not mean we must respect and accept new gimmicks that GameFreak puts out. If you'd like to play a competitive metagame where Dynamax isn't up for the ban discussion, feel free to play VGC battles on the SwiSh VGC ladder. The discussion about the competitive ramifications of Dynamax is very nuanced, and I'd suggest hopping over here to better familiarize yourself with the entire issue at hand.
I've already read through the whole page
So do you expect me to conform to your opinions simply because they're saying it?
Dynamaxing is rather managable imo once said pokemon are banned
 

MikeDawg

Banned deucer.
I really want Dynamaxing to be kept otherwise Gen 8 really won't bring anything new to the table.
Every other gen brought something and one can too clearly remember thinkign Z-Moves and Megas were OP at the time.
We'll just have to adapt, first, by banning Gyara and Lucha, Corsola-G and other select mons
We were adamant on keeping gen 5's thing (weather), and it ended up biting us in the butt.

To that point, I think Dynamaxing and weather are different from mega evolutions and z crystals for a couple reasons:

1.) Their effects are objectively more potent. Dynamaxing is basically like having four different z crystals for three turns while simultaneously boosting your stats. It even let's you temporarily remove the lock from choice items. Weather gives a massive boost to water/fire moves, massively reduces the power of fire/water moves, cures status (see: hydration manaphy), and gives a bunch of pokemon boosted speed and/or spdef (sand). On the other hand, Z-crystals are a one-time power boost, and Mega-evolutions aren't inherently powerful (so we've only had to ban a select few).

2.) Dynamaxing and weather affect
almost every Pokemon for multiple turns. Any mon can dynamax whenever they want with no significant restrictions, and they can snowball for multiple turns afterwards. Weather, especially permaweather as per the gen 5 analogy, has an impact on almost everything on the field, whether it's receiving chip damage, trying to tank a rain/sun boosted hit, struggling to break a grass type in rain, etc., even Pokemon that don't have weather-abusing abilities feel the effects. It's much harder to play around these mechanics when you have to do so for multiple turns. The fact that dynamaxing is so unpredictable makes it even harder.

I definitely value the idea of each gen having a distinct identity, but I think we should prioritize balance above all else, especially for mechanics as powerful as Dynamaxing.
 

Colonel M

I COULD BE BORED!
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I've already read through the whole page
So do you expect me to conform to your opinions simply because they're saying it?
Dynamaxing is rather managable imo once said pokemon are banned
I disagree completely.

Currently there are adaptations to countermeasures and being able to abuse Dynamax much further. Some with the same Pokemon but using Substitute or a Choice item since Dynamax nullifies the Choice lock for a few turns, or some other Dynamax Pokemon that have been slowly creeping onto the radar. Hydreigon for example is a pretty solid Dynamax special attacker. I also think Gengar and Special / Mixed Dragapult have a lot of potential to break things. While it's not something used all the time, I've occasionally seen things like Galar Darmanitan Dynamax just so that it can catch Pokemon off-guard with a Dynamax attack when they expect a Choice locked Attack instead.

I understand there are (legitimate) counterarguments to Dynamax being banned right away, but I think you're severely underestimating what impact Dynamax has on some of these Pokemon to snowball. Even if you ban some of the more abusive Pokemon with it, you potentially risk banning the following Pokemon in the process:

Hawlucha
Gyarados
Corviknight
Ditto
Excadrill

Sure you could attempt the approach of banning a Pokemon that can abuse Dynamax and is considered broken, but I figured this list alone would be a good example on what would be missed. While two of these are offensive Pokemon, 3 of these are highly usable utility Pokemon that help teams perform outside of Dynamax situations too.

You're not wrong for questioning Dynamax as a mechanic may not be broken, but if you go with the approach to ban a Pokemon instead you can dramatically change things in the process too (Ditto is the prime example of this, but Excadrill and Corviknight are two big ones as well). I want to be careful on slippery slopes because I understand that Z Crystals existed, but consider that Z Crystals made a one turn impact whereas a Dynamaxed Pokemon can make a multiple turn impact that goes beyond power (HP being boosted for durability as an example is nothing to scoff at).
 
Honestly I don't get why a tier without a gimmick like megas/z-crystals is so bad, it seems pretty appealing to me to just have a tier with "normal" Pokemon gameplay for once with a relatively lower power-level. Also I'm pretty sure the number of banned Pokemon would keep going up and it wouldn't be limited to just Gyarados, Hawlucha and Excadrill etc as I highly doubt those are the only broken abusers, they just stand out the most right now. The whole thing could turn out to be a huge mess if it's later decided dynamax is actually broken so some testing should be done at least, imo.
 
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The Mono-Attack Gengar set recently mentioned on its analysis discussion (Hex/Nasty Plot/Hypnosis/WoW or Toxic) seems really interesting, but I'm curious what kind of team archetype it fits into. I was thinking about using Grimmsnarl in some support capacity to set (either screens, or just general offensive support), and Hawlucha as a physical sweeping counterpart but I'm not sure where to go from there, or if this is even the best use for it. Curious to hear what people's experience with it has been.
 
I really want Dynamaxing to be kept otherwise Gen 8 really won't bring anything new to the table.
Every other gen brought something and one can too clearly remember thinkign Z-Moves and Megas were OP at the time.
We'll just have to adapt, first, by banning Gyara and Lucha, Corsola-G and other select mons
I strongly disagree with the notion that without Dynamax the new metagame brings nothing new to the table. Because of Dexit, only 9(!!!) Pokemon, 12 if counting transfer only Pokémon, are available from the previous OU tier list. The biggest OU staples like Magearna, Landorus, Heatran, Greninja and Tapus are gone. That already is a completely revamped threat list.

I can't help but feel like banning individual Pokémon will turn in a Baton Pass situation where we'd just end up chasing down endlessly the next broken thing for months. Sure, Gyarados and Hawlucha seem a big cut above everything else right now, but specifically because they are so good this might be making us myopic about whatever broken abuser lies next (such as Togekiss, Gigantamax Gengar, and so on)
 

termi

bike is short for bichael
is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributor
(seriously open that to the public this is way too important a discussion to be locked to a select few people)
for the record, that "select few people" is anyone with a badge, which is a lot of ppl because any somewhat motivated person can get a badge. furthermore, if you have something to contribute to the discussion that is more than a rehash of things that have already been said (which is what over half of the thread would be if you let everyone post in it, let's be honest) you can contact a badged user and ask them to post for you.
 
I can’t believe people are saying to suspect test a pure ice-type Pokémon. And a darmanitan at that. I never thought I’d see the day.

I think we should wait a few weeks for people to actually figure out what all the Pokémon do. We’ve had the games for less than a week. The metagame is still being figured out. There are Pokémon I haven’t even seen in the game yet let alone battled with. Reminds me when Naganadel was quick banned before anyone had a chance to use it....
 
Apologies if I'm missing something obvious, I haven't had the chance to really delve into the meta myself but how come there's been no mention of Sirfetch'd at all? 135 base attack, 50% crit effectively boosts your damage output by 25% on average (less desirable when clearing immediate threats but useful for wallbreaking with no recoil like life orb), first impression for some revenge kills and access to both max airstream and max knuckle sounds like it'd make it a pretty good dynamax beatstick.
Is its mediocre bulk+speed just not manageable?
 
Alright, let's talk about Trick Room for a bit -

The fact that Clangorous Soul is listed in the first post yet Trick Room doesn't even get the slightest bit of mention speaks volumes on the current state of Trick Room teams. From a somewhat quick glance at the whole thread, I can kind of see there is really not much interest in Trick Room, perhaps for the best, but despite that I still felt like trying my luck in the ladder with a pure TR team.

Trick Room has never been the most competitive playstyle ever. Ever since it came out in Gen 4 I always saw it as "gimmicky", anti-meta at best, but very often simply too unreliable to be good. To my surprise, things changed drastically in Sun and Moon. New Pokemon like Magearna and Stakataka could set up TR and go to town immediately, and others like A-Marowak, Tapu Bulu, Crawdaunt, Hoopa and Vikavolt were so strong they did not need to waste any turn setting up, immediately starting their kill streak from a single click. Z-Moves really helped its playstyle too, and suicide leads like Uxie, Bronzong and Cresselia could be used to instantly bring your sweeper into the fray. TR still failed to become too popular, but without a doubt it was a very scary playstyle anybody had to be ready for. The best part of Gen 7 TR for me was probably not being locked to the usual 3 Psychic or Ghost types all with the same weaknesses, or relying on bulky mons like Porygon 2 that simply end up wasting precious TR turns. Overall it was a very fun and somewhat viable way to climb the ladder.

To make up for all those gifts Gen 7 brought to it, Gen 8 decided to mercilessly murder every single being that made TR teams so good.
Okay, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but pretty close to it. Bronzong lost Explosion, Vikavolt can't use Hidden Power anymore (no big loss in my opinion), and Crawdaunt was basically the only member of the crew left completely untouched. As sad as that sounds, Trick Room sweepers don't actually have it that bad. I've played on the ladder for a while, and these have been the most successful sweepers I've found:


Crawdaunt -
Simply put, this thing is amazing. I don't think it needs any introduction, click thing, opponent dies. This new gen brought Close Combat to his moveset, which is cute but not game changing. I don't feel like it benefits from Dynamax much, as I've felt the loss of Choice Band to be fairly noticeable, but it's without a doubt a good way to fake out your opponent and switch moves, and rain helps mitigate the CB loss for the few turns. Also, Aqua Jet.


Vikavolt -
I really tried to make the shiny new toy Toxitricity work, and while it definitely had some moments where it shined, Vikavolt vastly outperformed it most of the times. This thing's raw power is ridiculous, I didn't expect it to go very far with so many Excadrill, Aegislash and Dragapult running around, but to my surprise it could constantly score a 2HKO despite the opponent resisting its attacks. Unlike with Crawdaunt, I've also had way more opportunities to sweep my opponent with Dynamax here, and switching between TBolt, Bug Buzz and Energy Ball felt pretty handy. Volt Switch is what really makes me want to suggest this mon so much, and contrary to Toxitricity's Volt Switch, this one packs a real punch. There isn't many good Electric types in the tier as of now, so its powerful attacks and momentum were really well appreciated by my team.


Conkeldurr -
As strong as this mons looks like, I feel like I have more complaints than praises about it, but thinking about it all can be summarized with "No Knock Off". This hurts so damn much, I've lost momentum and given my opponent so many free switch ins just because I didn't have Knock Off. As much as I tried to fix this with Earthquake, Fire Punch, Stone Edge and Poison Jab, none of these coverage options really felt right to me. I feel like this Pokemon will shine way more with HOME being released, but until then he will still be usable. Unlike with Choice Band, Guts allows Conkeldurr to not lose any attack when Dynamaxing, and every turn he attacks he keeps on getting stronger and stronger. Seeing his ability and enormous amount of HP, I instantly knew he was going to be my "Gyarados", and he definitely did not disappoint when it came to end games. But again, I cannot stress enough how much the lack of Knock Off hurts. Handle with care.


Sirfetch'd -

At a first glance this quacky boy may seem way worse than Conkeldurr, but Scrappy is actually a really nice ability to have, especially with the Intimidate blocking. Who needs coverage or predictions when you can just spam Close Combat after all? Sirfetch'd even gets Knock Off, but unlike Conkeldurr it's good but not as important, because CC really melts team. The lack of power from Guts Conkeldurr is noticeable, and no Mach Punch REALLY hurts, but I feel like this mons really deserves a small mention. I will say the choice between the two can be match-up based or up to preference. I will say though that Conkeldurr's Mach Punch saved me a lot from angry ice gorillas, which are currently everywhere on the ladder.

Perrserker -

This Pokemon just barely misses the mark. It almost has it all, Tough Claws, Iron Head, Close Combat, Play Rough, Seed Bomb, U-Turn, Fake Out, this thing's moveset and ability is really interesting. Its typing is not the best defensively, but to be fair the same can be said about many other TR sweepers. Despite all the interesting moves, Perrserker simply doesn't feel like it hits hard enough. The main problem with TR is the very limited amount of turns you have to abuse it, which is why the team requires very strong nukes that make every turn count. Overall I really liked Perserrker and it helped a lot with a big Fairy weakness I had while testing, but when its spot has to compete with the likes of Crawdaunt and Conkeldurr, it's quite hard to justify a spot for it.

Aegislash -
Time for the real Steel types to play around. I don't actually like using Aegislash in pure Trick Room teams because, once again, there is way too many Pokemon weak to Ghost and Dark already. However Aegislash remains an incredible Pokemon that can help the team in many situations, and its bulk is also great to waste Dynamax turns against many opponents. Steel Beam and Close Combat are amazing new tools that help, the latter in particular helps Aegislash 2HKO standard Ferrothorn without any need for Attack EVs nor Life Orb, though the latter is still required to break though Bold Physical variants, in which case Leech Seed can prove to be annoying. Although not too reliable, I've had some fun with both Weakness Policy and Eject Pack. Firing off a powerful Steel Beam and keeping momentum at the same time is pretty fun, but I usually prefer the raw power of Life Orb more. It's not always good to force yourself out after all.

So far, despite some downsides, not too shabby. None of these Pokemon can match how perfect A-Marowak was for TR teams, but they can be for sure powerful choices regardless. Other special mentions go to Rillaboom, which will instantly go into my team as soon as it's released, Copperajah, with its unique Steel SR and its great moveset that can in absolutely no way benefit from Sheer Force, and Flapple, which I'm exclusively mentioning to make sure nobody uses it. Really, just use a min speed Darmanitan if you feel like Hustle Outrage sounds so good, this thing's coverage is just not worth it and the accuracy hurts a lot.


Things really start falling apart however when looking at the list of Trick Room users, by a lot. This part is basically the main reason while I felt like writing a little history lesson on Gen 7 TR. But enough of that, lets get the obvious ones out of the way:

Hatterene -
I feel like this thread has talked about this Pokemon enough already, but I can't not mention it. Magic Bounce is amazing, Dynamax sweeping potential is incredible, GMax has a 25% chance to make your opponent forfeit, no Moonblast really sucks but it is what it is. I really enjoy Mystical Fire on this thing as well, which is what really makes its Dynamax so hard to tank for many teams. Not much else to say that wasn't already mentioned.


Reuniclus -

I've never liked Reuniclus much in pure TR teams, as like mentioned TR already has way too many Psychic types usually, but its power cannot be ignored. Reuniclus always had a sort of anti-meta role when it comes to its TR sets, and Gen 8 repeats that trend. This little jelly has more than enough bulk to survive a strongish attack, set up TR and fight back with a powerful LO Psychic. Doesn't care about hazards and statuses, and it's really amazing as a Dynamax sweeper. Dynamax is sadly the only way it has to get past some strong tanks such as Corviknight, Aegislash and Ferrothorn, the latter capable of dodging up to 9 Focus Blasts per second.


Reuniclus or Hatterene?

When it really comes to choose between Reuniclus and Hatterene, I usually feel like Hatterene is just barely better. Magic Bounce helps the whole team in general and makes Corsola completely hopeless, and Mystical Fire is really nice to keep around. I've had some fun with double Psychic core though, with one's Dynamax Psychic Terrain carrying over for the other to sweep. I would not suggest it in an actual serious team however despite how fun it is to pull off. The Fairy type has also helped me more a fair bit, but despite that I can definitely see the advantages Reuniclus can still have over Hatterene and encourage testing both. I feel it's also fair to mention that Reuniclus can use Focus Sash to great effect, and though it's vulnerable to Taunt, this is a life safer against HO teams. The jelly also gets Endeavor, but I've heard the move actually fails against Dynamax mons. I haven't tested in game yet, so consider this just a rumor for now. I also want to mention that the more I climbed the more I saw people use Strentgh Sap against Hatterene thinking it's the same as Recover and healing me back to full, which is always hilarious to see.

Mimikyu -
Like Reuniclus, Mimikyu deserves at the very least a mention for being always able to survive a hit in dangerous situations and heavily cripple the opponent with TR. Outside of that, and the fact it doesn't instantly melts to Ghost and Dark moves, Mimikyu doesn't hit too hard, and has to rely on a Destiny Bond read to kill something. Not the strongest pick, but a must have if you struggle against HO.

Bronzong -
I can't help but feel like this mon is currently a must, if not just out of lack of better options. Like mentioned above, no Explosion really hurts. Earthquake helps a bit, but doesn't threaten Pokemon like Aegislash enough. One of the few TR with Stealth Rocks however, and as such it should be a good asset to a team. I suggest always using it with Vikavolt if you don't want the big bad crow to just ruin your day and waste all of your turns.

Runerigrus -
Bronzong but with a somewhat worse typing and access to Toxic Spikes. Despite testing this guy extensively, I was really not a fan. Will-o-Wisp, Curse and Memento can all be used to cripple your opponent, with Curse being my favourite to try and score some key KOs in the few turns you have, but overall disappointing. Between it and Bronzong, the latter has my vote.

Aaaand that's it. That's the end of the good TR setters for me. That's how bad it is.
There is quite a few bulky TR setters left on the list, like Jellicent, Gourgeist, Claydol, Dusclops, Oranguru and so on, but none of them come close to keeping the same momentum or utility for the team as other choices such as Uxie, Cresselia, and after setting up they just become sitting ducks for something like Aegislash and Grimmsnarl to come in and destroy your team, or something like Corviknight to just sit there and waste all of your turns. I want however give a special mention to Chandelure, which thanks to Heavy Duty Boots (how does it even wear those?) can finally switch in without losing 50% health instantly, while at the same time threatening your opponent heavily with strong Overheats. The heavy HO focus Dynamax offers is the only thing that sadly makes me feel disappointed about this guy, forcing me to use Sash Reuniclus or Mimikyu in its stead. Other mention goes to Indedee, which can set up both Psychic Terrain and TR at the same time but can only learn one between Trick Room and Healing Wish, ruining my hopes and dreams forever.

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If I really had to use a Trick Room team, I suppose right now these guys are the best group I could find so far. My suggestion is however, don't. The ladder is currently filled with mons like Aegislash, Poultergeist, Dragapult, Grimmsnarl and more that can really just eat you alive with one wrong move. Still had fun with the team however, and I'm positive that it can climb the ladder with some dedications. Especially once Conkeldurr gets Knock Off. It has Payback, but you can't really use that in TR, so you are even weaker to Ghosts. Little inconveniences like that is why I prefer not sharing a team and perhaps let others test between it and Sirfetch'd, Hatterena and Reuniclus, and some other mentioned picks they might enjoy.

I do not think at all however that Trick Room as a whole is a lost cause. Rather, I've had extreme success with it in Balance teams, way more than in pure Trick Room teams, which is what I recommend way more. A simple Trick Room core like Hatterene + Crawdaunt, Reuniclus + Conkeldurr, and stuff like that is a really good anti-meta fit in the current meta, capable of tearing holes through entire teams without being entirely dependant to Trick Room. Hatterene's Magic Bounce constantly helps the team deal with stall, Assault Vest Conkeldurr/Sirfetch'd is a great mon to keep around, Aegislash really doesn't need any help or introductions to explain why it would be good, Crawdaunt is a complete monster and can threaten with Aqua Jet even outside TR, and other usually slow mons used in Balance such as Tyranitar or Rotom also partially benefit from Trick Room crippling the terrifying likes of Gyarados and Hawlucha, which also makes Ditto completely useless.

I suggest everybody giving Trick Room a try in either way they prefer before the meta settles down, just go and have some fun on the ladder. And I hope this post has helped or encouraged some people to try it out.
 
Alright, let's talk about Trick Room for a bit -

-snip-
I've been using a Trick Room as a side team to my main one and I'm finding some decent success with it. My team is Runerigus, Hatterene, Chandelure, Vikavolt, Sirfetch'd and Corviknight.

I agree with your Hatterene ruling; I put her on the team hoping to just keep the Trick Room going and found her offensive potential is actually very powerful. I usually reserve her for Dynamaxing.

I think you undersell Runerigus; I've tried a few different sets on him and it functions well as a midgame Trick Room setter, suicide lead Trapper/Setter and tank. He's got fantastic bulk, very rarely being unable to set up a Trick Room if he leads and provided you don't swap it in to an Ice attack he can usually set up mid-game too. The added bonus of being able to Stealth Rock and Memento once he's successful are valuable.

Chandelure was my other Trick Room setter while also packing some offense. I carry Energy Ball instead of Shadow Ball because as a Fire type he definitely needs it.

Also agree with what you say about Sirfetch'd. I did not expect him to be so useful. You didn't mention First Impression but I find it's his most useful move actually after Knock Off; it catches people off-guard very often.

As for your final point about Trick Room cores being used in balance, that's exactly what my main team is. I have Runerigus on that team too with an Iron Defense Body Press set, who sets up Trick Room and becomes as tanky as it can. If it dies before Trick Room is up, I use Toxtricity and Shift Gear him to the level of his opponent or Appletun and set up a Substitute.
 

Deleted User 229847

Banned deucer.
I really want Dynamaxing to be kept otherwise Gen 8 really won't bring anything new to the table.
Every other gen brought something and one can too clearly remember thinkign Z-Moves and Megas were OP at the time.
We'll just have to adapt, first, by banning Gyara and Lucha, Corsola-G and other select mons
Agree, it's not like gen8 brought us a plethora of new pokemons, items, abilities and moves, while also resetting the pokedex for the first time since the beginning of the series (and removing quite a few moves altogether)... least but not least, Z moves and mega evolutions.
It doesn't matter, does it? After all a stupid gimmick introduced to appeal to the kid's audience during the playthrough is way more important than anything else and its removal will surely nullify any change whatsoever Game Freak has made to the game.

Why is this argument even a thing? It should be blacklisted from any discussion on the topic, it's just plain dumb.
 

bruno

is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Championis a Past WCoP Champion
World Defender
Apologies if I'm missing something obvious, I haven't had the chance to really delve into the meta myself but how come there's been no mention of Sirfetch'd at all? 135 base attack, 50% crit effectively boosts your damage output by 25% on average (less desirable when clearing immediate threats but useful for wallbreaking with no recoil like life orb), first impression for some revenge kills and access to both max airstream and max knuckle sounds like it'd make it a pretty good dynamax beatstick.
Is its mediocre bulk+speed just not manageable?
Yeah the bulk just doesn't end up compensating for the speed at all. scrappy close combat's kinda cool though. the only thing i'd consider would be a choice band set with first impression to at least revenge kill faster Pokemon while still being able to make use of that 135 base atk vs slower stuff(close combat/knock off/first impression/defog or meteor assault would work). Another idea would be on a Trick Room team like people mentioned already.

I wanted to talk a little about Cinderace. Here's what I've been using atm:

Cinderace @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Pyro Ball
- U-turn
- Court Change
- High Jump Kick

I think people are still sleeping on this mon a little. Court change brings a whole new form of mindgames to the table, especially combined with boots. The thing is, even if your opponent knows of court change, the sheer pressure from the move itself scares out the presence of things like spikes/sticky web/screens a lot of times(heavy-duty boots actually bypasses sticky web btw), which allows for a clean field on your side unless they're up to going through a hazard game longterm. Cinderace itself is no slouch either though, Pyro Ball is actually pretty strong with 116 base atk, and it's got access to sucker punch to revenge pokemon like dragapult and zen headbutt for pex, although I'd probably almost always use a set with court change since that's what makes it OU worthy to me atm. Here's a team if anyone wants to try it out:

https://pokepast.es/31943baf6dfab716

Acrobatics on dragapult's more of an experimental option to boost up speed while dynamaxed but U-turn/Thunderbolt works as well. AV snarl's a solid check to dragapult and NP hydreigon which are on a ton of teams right now and just a decent poke for offensive teams. I wouldn't use this team for a big game since you need to be really smart with court change bc sash polteageist is your means to beat a lot of setup threats and it just struggles too much with Toxapex for my liking, but it's really fun to just spam on the ladder nonetheless.
 
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