Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion (Usage stats in post #944)

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BlackMalachite said:
To detract from the Dynamax discussion again, I'd like to present you all with a Pokemon that is being criminally underlooked right now, Lucario.

lucario.gif

Lucario:

Stats:
HP: 70
Atk: 110
Def: 70
SpA: 115
SpD: 70
Spe: 90
​
Lucario is an absolute monster right now, and relatively anti-meta. Not only did it get a ton of new tools to work with in Sword and Shield (including some interesting new moves), but it didn't lose any relevant moves during the Sword and Shield switch. Let me explain several reasons why Lucario is so underlooked right now.

1. The slower pace of the metagame in some playstyles: Lucario has base 90 speed, want to know what mons Lucario naturally outspeeds? Excadrill, the Rotom appliances (bar the Electric / Ghost variant which is rare), Rillaboom, Durladon, Kommo-O, Gyarados, Chandelure, Mamoswine, Gardevoir, etc. 90 is a really solid tier right now. Sticky Webs support is always appreciated.

2. Steel / Fighting type is great and its STAB combination nails many Pokemon in the tier super effectively. Not to mention the amount of unreal coverage moves it has (along with ways of boosting all these moves such as Swords Dance, Nasty Plot, Power-Up Punch, etc).

3. Its offensive stats are even better now, and it can run either Physical or Special sets adding to its unpredictability. The Special sets got a new tool in STAB Steel Beam which will absolutely decimate anything with a Nasty Plot boost (if you don't like the HP loss, STAB NP boosted Flash Cannon still hits like an absolute truck). It also has access to to both Physical and Special STAB priority (Bullet Punch, Vacuum Wave).

Relevant Physical Movepool: Blaze Kick, Bullet Punch (STAB Priority), Circle Throw (Stab Phazing), Close Combat (STAB), Cross Chop (STAB), Crunch, Drain Punch (STAB Recovery), Earthquake, Extremespeed (Priority), High Jump Kick (STAB), Ice Punch, Meteor Mash (STAB), Poison Jab, Power-Up Punch (STAB Boosting), Rock Slide, Shadow Claw, Stone Edge, Thunder Punch, Zen Headbutt.

Relevant Special Movepool: Aura Sphere (STAB Never Miss), Dark Pulse, Dragon Pulse, Flash Cannon (STAB), Focus Blast (STAB), Psychic, Shadow Ball, Steel Beam (STAB), Vacuum Wave (STAB Priority).

Relevant Miscellaneous Movepool: Agility (Speed Boost), Bulk Up (Attack and Defense Boost), Calm Mind (SpA and SpD Boost), Final Gambit, Life Dew (Recovery), Nasty Plot (+2 SpA Boost), Substitute, Swords Dance (+2 Attack Boost)

Mostly I've been running a Nasty Plot variant with Aura Sphere, Flash Cannon, and Dark Pulse and it's been working really well. But the set possibilities are literally endless.
Click to expand...

Lucario also gets +1 of speed when intimidated if ability is Steadfast, doesn't it?
 
After years of lurking around and reading strategies, I finally made an account yesterday and started playing (Blue Ice Maiden).

Few things I noticed:

-Eiscue is STRONG!! if played correctly it is devastating! Bring safely, use ice face protection to belly drum then dynamax to abuse max hailstorm/ mindstorm/ knuckle. I have swept entire teams and / or forced rage quits lol this thing should be OU. Surprisingly the penguin can tank few hits!!

-Darm is a beast. Slap a scarf on it and click icicle crash.

-Ice scales Frosmoth can actually tank a lot of special moves especially if she had QD before hand. Though I must admit, she is not as viable as I had hoped! Wish she had at least 80 speed.

-ThornPex is devastating...stall for days!

Anyway I am enjoying the metagame and I actually like Dynamax so I hope it does not get the chop.
 
Is a high usage of ditto a symptom of a severely unbalanced metagame? Since the release of imposter I feel like it has only shown up in tiers like ubers (and SM OU lol) where there are a handful of Pokémon which are so strong that there are no conventional answers to them and so the answer becomes "just steal one for yourself and outspeed it with ditto."

Ditto is the only thing that can truly handle the litany of setup dynamaxers (except for Hawlucha).
In fact, a lot of the time you just let them setup and kill stuff because A: nothing can stop Gyarados since it can just dynamax out of vulnerability and boost up speed at the same time and B: you're just going to reverse sweep them with your ditto dynamax for game so none of the rest of it matters

Don't want to sound too whiny in this post (especially since the real problem is Dynamax, which has been discussed at length; it seems like most are leaning toward ban and I think that's 100% appropriate) but games with Ditto are some of the most soul-crushing matches I can imagine in Pokemon. ESPECIALLY if both players have Ditto and y'all are both just waiting for the other guy to get forced into Dynamaxing at the wrong time so you can just win with Ditto. What is even the point of building a team of 6 Pokemon and playing around 30 turns of game when the outcome of the match mostly revolves around 2 Pokemon and 3-6 turns?

Pokemon has always had key turns that decide the outcome of a match, no doubt but the Dynamax/Ditto situation is so hyperfocused on a handful of turns and decisions to the point that the rest of the decisions make very little impact.

TL;DR: is high Ditto usage an environmental indicator of a broken metagame?
 
Nugget said:
Is a high usage of ditto a symptom of a severely unbalanced metagame? Since the release of imposter I feel like it has only shown up in tiers like ubers (and SM OU lol) where there are a handful of Pokémon which are so strong that there are no conventional answers to them and so the answer becomes "just steal one for yourself and outspeed it with ditto."

Ditto is the only thing that can truly handle the litany of setup dynamaxers (except for Hawlucha).
In fact, a lot of the time you just let them setup and kill stuff because A: nothing can stop Gyarados since it can just dynamax out of vulnerability and boost up speed at the same time and B: you're just going to reverse sweep them with your ditto dynamax for game so none of the rest of it matters

Don't want to sound too whiny in this post (especially since the real problem is Dynamax, which has been discussed at length; it seems like most are leaning toward ban and I think that's 100% appropriate) but games with Ditto are some of the most soul-crushing matches I can imagine in Pokemon. ESPECIALLY if both players have Ditto and y'all are both just waiting for the other guy to get forced into Dynamaxing at the wrong time so you can just win with Ditto. What is even the point of building a team of 6 Pokemon and playing around 30 turns of game when the outcome of the match mostly revolves around 2 Pokemon and 3-6 turns?

Pokemon has always had key turns that decide the outcome of a match, no doubt but the Dynamax/Ditto situation is so hyperfocused on a handful of turns and decisions to the point that the rest of the decisions make very little impact.

TL;DR: is high Ditto usage an environmental indicator of a broken metagame?
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In my opinion, Ditto is an imperfect but generally useful look into how broken a metagame is. Obviously things can be broken while it's left helpless - Hawlucha in this very own metagame is an example! - and it tends to do better in any offensively-inclined metas without them necessarily being broken, but overall, ditto only wins game in two situations: reverse-sweeps that the opposing team hasn't prepared for, or when a mon has no - or, at least, very few - counters. The less counters or checks a mon has, the more likely you'll be to find a ditto on a team to counter it, and the more it centralizes play around those mons, since you now have a dedicated check that really isn't useful outside of checking that group of broken mons.

Now, usually this could be solved by banning some mons. But in this metagame, there are so many mons that can spiral out of control and win - of course there's the classic three that everyone mentions in Gyarados, Hawlucha, and Excadrill, but other options like Togekiss, Durant, Barraskewda, and Gengar are also great, and will become the new broken mons with those three big ones banned. And I'm sure there's more viable options that just haven't seen much exploration yet due to not performing quite as well as any of the big ones. So banning them ALL seems impractical.

So yeah, ditto's excessive usage here is pretty indicative of just how broken the meta is. It's not nigh unplayable like some people claim, but it's imbalanced and uncompetitive as hell due to how many broken threats there are right now, to the point where the only way to consistently win against them is ditto.
 
On a different note, I'll be posting my own variant of rain. I'm currently loving weather archetypes (except for sun, just waiting until venusaur gets released). Not sure if this is allowed, but I just wanted to discuss rain.
https://pokepast.es/db0932f014d7f5b7
Obviously, the #1 candidate is Pelipper. Even dynamaxing setting rain isn't enough due to being forced to use Max Geyser, say, against an opposing Ferro to get rain up in the duration of some 3 turns.
Since the pelican lost Defog, it opens up room for Scald which deals a surprising amount under rain given its mediocre SpA.
Next, Barraskewda is an obvious choice, it's the premier Swift Swimmer and has excellent coverage, Max Geyser sets rain should it ever run out during its sweep, Max Mindstorm hits Toxapex, Crunch hits Corsola-G, and Close Combat hits Ferro plus other steels. I know many others use Drednaw or Seismitoad but that extra speed Barra gets allows it to be a check to Lucha in a pinch(revenge killing under rain)
And then, obviously, the next choice would be Dracovish, therefore completing the offensive core.
Dracovish hits like a FUCKING NUKE especially under rain. Without rain I think it can do 50-ish to Ferro, and 70-ish under rain.
Obviously no one's switching into this, according to calcs, under rain it can deal OVER 520 BP! Backed up by a decent 90 attack and Choice Band the only safe switchins are water absorbs and a full Appletun. I definitely see water absorb quagsire and seismitoad coming back if this doesn't get banned.
Next, since every team mandates a Ditto, Ditto is here and is part of the defensive core or to countersweep. Honestly, in rain, Ditto is used more defensively(just an opinion) due to very powerful revenge killers named Barra and Draco.
Next choice was a Corviknight, I know it's stacking another Electric weakness, but it's ability to abuse many rain counters especially if running Substitute over Defog(original choice) is so helpful. This team enjoys stacking hazards, but should you lose the hazard war and/or Ferro it becomes problematic so I replaced Substitute with Defog. I might change it back because I rarely click it back, but time will tell.
Ferrothorn is an obvious choice on Rain, and completes the defensive backbone. It provides a handy electric resist, mandatory switch-in to Toxicitry(hopefully non Specs) and is extremely bulky. It can stand up to being countersweeped by Barra or Draco (Ditto doesn't get that Band boost I think) and generally puts in a lot of work from rain. That's it! That's my variant! I didn't think this worthy to make an RMT about because I'm lazy and I just wanted to discuss weather, I'll probably focus on Sun next, trying to work with Sun w/out Venusaur. Really loving rain this gen!
Again, I do think too much pressure is placed on Ditto Corviknight and Ferro as the defensive backbone as the meta is extremely powerful but it's been doing well enough. But then, I'm not even in top 500 yet so take this with a grain of sale.
 
Food for thought: Using usage as a metric to decide how "broken" a Pokemon or metagame is is honestly a pretty weak reason to give. Landorus-Therian was everywhere last gen, and was highly versatile and effective (hence its high usage) but aside from a fringe group of idiots/trolls who would religiously defend their assumption that its high usage meant it just had to be broken, it really didn't break anything. Ditto might be a different case to deal with, but if your sole argument is the usage it gets, then it's not a very convincing reason.
 
I'm new to meta in general. Could someone please break it down to me why ditto is so good in the Dynamax era? I've read 16 of the 24 pages in this thread and everyone appears to understand something I don't on what makes ditto so good.

Treat me like I know nothing... because I don't :psysad:

And also, why is Gyarados and Hawlucha such great dynamax users?
 
PokePoindexter said:
Food for thought: Using usage as a metric to decide how "broken" a Pokemon or metagame is is honestly a pretty weak reason to give. Landorus-Therian was everywhere last gen, and was highly versatile and effective (hence its high usage) but aside from a fringe group of idiots/trolls who would religiously defend their assumption that its high usage meant it just had to be broken, it really didn't break anything. Ditto might be a different case to deal with, but if your sole argument is the usage it gets, then it's not a very convincing reason.
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did you read what he said, he said usage for ditto explicitly, not lando-t, not Taurus, not umbreon, but ditto. There are many posts on why that is a good or acceptable metric but any who definitely look into that. one post in particular goes into detail on why
 
Frobones said:
I'm new to meta in general. Could someone please break it down to me why ditto is so good in the Dynamax era? I've read 16 of the 24 pages in this thread and everyone appears to understand something I don't on what makes ditto so good.

Treat me like I know nothing... because I don't :psysad:
Click to expand...
In the Dynamax meta, an extremely common winning series of plays looks something like this: you switch your setup sweeper into something that it forces out, start boosting, and then when your opponent brings in something to deal with it, you dynamax. Once you dynamax you potentially gain even more boosts (in particular Gyarados gaining +1 speed from Max Airstream and +1 attack from Moxie on top of Dragon Dance boosts) and you just run over their team.

Ditto is really good because in this scenario, after the dynamax setup sweeper kills something, you switch in Ditto. Imposter transforms it immediately and also copies the stat boosts of your opponent. Is your opponent at +6 attack and +6 speed? So is your ditto except it's also got a choice scarf, so it's guaranteed to be faster. Since you can then dynamax the ditto to make it hugely bulky AND bypass your own choice-lock limitations, it becomes relatively easy to reverse sweep the entire opponents team. They have no more dynamax and you're already instantly set up.


PokePoindexter said:
Food for thought: Using usage as a metric to decide how "broken" a Pokemon or metagame is is honestly a pretty weak reason to give. Landorus-Therian was everywhere last gen, and was highly versatile and effective (hence its high usage) but aside from a fringe group of idiots/trolls who would religiously defend their assumption that its high usage meant it just had to be broken, it really didn't break anything. Ditto might be a different case to deal with, but if your sole argument is the usage it gets, then it's not a very convincing reason.
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I don't think Ditto is broken because it has high usage but rather that because the meta is broken, Ditto has high usage.
In other words, Ditto's usage isn't a sign that Ditto is too good for the meta but rather that the meta is so warped that Ditto becomes good. The real problem, of course, is dynamax.

Also, it's somewhat unfair to compare the usage of Landorus-T (a pokemon that runs like a dozen very different sets and performs various roles) to Ditto (learns literally one move)
 
Frobones said:
I'm new to meta in general. Could someone please break it down to me why ditto is so good in the Dynamax era? I've read 16 of the 24 pages in this thread and everyone appears to understand something I don't on what makes ditto so good.

Treat me like I know nothing... because I don't :psysad:
Click to expand...

Everything is a broken sweeper, and ditto copies them and just reverse sweeps the game.

Imagine this: gyarados gets a dragon dance, moxie boost for each kill, and when dynamaxed +1 speed per max-bounce. Gyarados sweeps your whole team, then suddenly ditto comes in, KO's gyarados with all his boost and choice scarf, then dynamaxes to unlock his choiced move limitation, and just wins the entire game.

That's why ditto is being spammed right now, it takes how volatile and snowbally the current meta is and flips it in your favor, its basically insurance to punish anything trying to 6-0 you.
 
My big problem with the "ban Dynamax, keep Gigantimax" proposal is that it ends up wrapping teambuilding all around a handful of pokemon that get access to this powerful tool that you would be stupid not to make use of. That is what Mega evolution did, especially in X/Y where there weren't that many.
Gigantimax Hatterene and Gengar are quite likely strong enough to centralize a Dynamax-free OU around themselves, and if you go banning them, people will just go down the list to the next handful of pokemon to become the best users that will be on every team because otherwise you are giving up your Max.
 
I imagine that if Dynamax gets banned while Gigamax wont be banned, that there would eb suspect tests of the broken Gigantamax mons.
Aside from that, i really like (specs) Sylveon. Its a great counter to the 2 dominant Dragons (hydreigon, Dragapult) and it got mystical fire to deal ferrothorn and corviknigth
 
About Ditto.

It's fairly self-evident that Ditto is an immune response to an unhealthy meta, and that its popular use is almost always an indication of a meta that has gotten out of control. In balanced formats, it has always been viable, but never oppressive. It's currently tiered at NU in gen 5, PU in gen 6, and untiered in gen 7, despite having analyses and a place on the viability rankings in every major tier in all three generations except for gen 5 ubers. It is 100% certain to be OU this generation.

In this respect, Ditto is never going to be a problem in and of itself, because a balanced meta would (according to previous generations) inherently lead to fewer people using it. Its position relative to the rest of any given meta, power level wise, is generally fairly consistent -- it's about equally good in every meta, and it always has broadly the same limitations.

Does this mean Ditto is, a priori, not banworthy? I'm not sure. I'm not trying to argue that it should be banned, but I don't think the idea should be dismissed out of hand either.

Firstly, Ditto has received a number of buffs this generation, even independently of the increased power level of the meta around it. Between the loss of Hidden Power, Return/Frustration, and (in ubers) Judgement, and the fact that Dynamaxing clears your Substitute, it's now significantly harder to Imposter-proof your team, or even to make Imposter more risky. It can now also remove its own Choice lock with Dynamax, making its revenge killing much less exploitable -- especially if it has managed to copy any stat boosts. The reduced proliferation of Knock Off is a small but notable buff for Ditto aswell, since losing its item makes it significantly less good at its role.

Secondly, Ditto is a Pokemon whose nuances have taken a long time to discover. When Imposter was first released, it was taken for granted that it was useless vs heavily defensive teams, but it has since been discovered that Ditto can play an important role in defensive matchups, between having effectively infinite PP and sometimes being able to use utility effects like Aromatherapy without dedicating any slots to them in teambuilding. With more people bandwagoning on it now, I wouldn't be surprised to see more uses being developed -- one innovation that strikes me as possible where it wasn't before is forgoing the Scarf to improve your matchup against stall, while using your Dynamax to let Ditto deal with the thing it's copying in more offensive matchups.

Thirdly, Ditto's omnipresence may be a symptom of a problem, but it is a symptom with significant collateral damage of its own. Simply by being so common, it totally invalidates offensive setup strategies, either hard countering them to the point of making them suicidal, or forcing so much preparation that the entire archetype revolves around preparing for Ditto. Preparing every Pokemon to avoid an instant team wipe from Imposter does not, to me, seem any less centralising than expecting every Stall Pokemon to prepare for Shadow Tag. Put another way, Ditto is a matchup meta compressed into a single Pokemon -- it's binarily powerful in a similar way to Shedinja, but much more consistent, and less totally useless when it does "whiff".

Finally, while it might be true that Ditto's omnipresence is only an issue likely to come up in a broken meta, the inverse is also true: Ditto will never fix a broken meta. It'll just cause the meta to revolve around Ditto; it's an archetypical case of broken checking broken, even if it is only broken situationally. It's entirely possible that Ditto will create an unhealthy meta in its own way while suppressing elements that would need to be removed if they weren't being suppressed by a bad matchup against Ditto, making it more difficult to diagnose the problem. I can also imagine it might see more use as a blanket check to offense now that it's gotten its time in the sun as a major threat.

I love this mon. I've been using it since gen 5, and it's won me loads of games. But while I don't know that I would agree with it being banned (the anti-ban case is fairly obvious and altogether more persuasive at the moment), I don't think we should treat it as unimpeachable wisdom that Ditto is not an issue in and of itself. I mean, we're talking about a Pokemon that is at near 100% usage, places immense strain on teambuilding, forces you to keep it in mind with every move just by being on the opponent's team, is often so strong that getting it in safely is an instant win condition, and is good enough to single-handedly turn around hopeless games even against much more skilled players, and does all of this with zero skill required -- that absolutely sounds like we're describing an Ubers level threat, and that's something worth considering if Ditto's dominance persists once the meta has stabilised.
 
Gigantamax forms are A-ok for me because they lack some of the biggest strengths Dynamax has.
1a. Gigantamaxing is limited to certain Pokemon, meaning that its very sign posted in team preview what Pokemon you will Gigantamax
1b. Also because of its limited distribution, it acts more like what Z moves (especially Exclusive Z-moves), where you can’t gigantamax any time in the battle to fit the situation best. You are forced to have this specific Pokemon out on their field, and you can decide mid-match to swap who you are going to Gigantamax (like you could with Dynamaxing since you can Dynamax anything at any time)
2. Most G-max rarely snowball. In fact, the only (correct me if I’m wrong) G-max move that increases your stats is Machamp’s and its a focus energy boost.
That isn’t to say all the G-Max moves have bad effects, but pretty much all of them don’t force you to use Ditto like Max Airstream/Knuckle or Max Geyser does with how many boosts you can accumulate.

If there are Gigantamaxes that are still broken, just treat them like Megas, Banning only the broken forms.
 
Rarycaris said:
About Ditto.
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Love this post. Even if dynamaxing goes the way of the Doduo I can't imagine people will simply stop using it overnight because it's still far too good at its very unique role. I personally dislike Ditto as I think it's a rather 'uninteresting' pick with comparatively little room for customization and player expression. You can tune it for counter-sweeps or counter-stall, or possibly a secret third Neutral Route somewhere down the line, but customization remains minimal. During teambuilding, putting Ditto on my team feels less like choosing a Pokémon from a selection of viable role performers, and more like checking in at my job and adding the government-mandated one-and-only Imposter to my team lest I be fired by a boosting sweeper. I very much enjoy decisions like Hatterene vs Xatu for a Magic Bounce user, but no such toss-ups exist for Imposter. I love to agonize over moveset options, and tweak and tweak until something clicks, but with Ditto you just paste Generic Ditto Set into Showdown and get ready to collect your paycheck when some poor soul tries to sweep without a Sub up.

Speaking of teambuilding, I will continue to eagerly await a G-Darm suspect even though that's not at the top of the priority list right now and is likely a while away. It's remarkably oppressive; as I run through the list of available Pokémon trying to come up with creative ways of checking this thing, very few useful mons can switch into Icicle Crash, and most things that can, risk being deleted by a good read. Losing to a good read is fair game I know, but G-Darm doesn't even need a good read to chunk or KO you, it just needs a neutral hit. I don't know why Gamefreak gave this snowman such incredible coverage when my boy Jolteon has been begging on a street corner for years. At least with Dracovish there are water-absorbing and nullifying abilities, but Ice has no such absorb.

Facing Darm is like fighting a Mishima in Tekken at point-blank range: stand-block and you eat the hellsweep for huge damage, crouch-block and you eat a regular launcher for huge damage...except in Pokémon, you can't use good spacing to avoid having to take the coin toss at all. Can you guys recommend any good switch-ins besides Jellicent and Corsola that can't be hit for 2x/4x by one of Darm's coverage options? It's making me want to stop playing until it gets banned or UU is implemented.

very negative but i like this gen i promise
 
Crimson Chris said:
So I wonder, could Silvally be more of a threat due to the huge Multi-Attack buff?

A 120 BP 100 Accuracy move with at least 10 PP with no drawbacks sounds like a good deal. I may be wrong however.
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If it got Fighting coverage outside of reversal and Agility, it would actually be pretty good for Dynamaxing since it would be Imposter Proof with Multi-Attack+Ghost Memory.
 
Crimson Chris said:
So I wonder, could Silvally be more of a threat due to the huge Multi-Attack buff?

A 120 BP 100 Accuracy move with at least 10 PP with no drawbacks sounds like a good deal. I may be wrong however.
Click to expand...

It takes the penalty for fighting/poison max moves on Multi Attack regardless of what type it actually is, which is a pretty big downside.
 
Crimson Chris said:
So I wonder, could Silvally be more of a threat due to the huge Multi-Attack buff?

A 120 BP 100 Accuracy move with at least 10 PP with no drawbacks sounds like a good deal. I may be wrong however.
Click to expand...
Definitely.
Getting that juicy Thunder Wave and Parting Shot(and U-Turn but fuck that when you have that JUICY PARTING SHOT) is so good, plus a 120 BP move with literally no downsides is extremely good. That being said, it's movepool is rather shallow, imo it's kind of predictable (well not rn, since no one runs it) but running an item that only serves to change your STAB with no other benefits definitely hurts it.
Currently trying to incorporate it into my teams
 
Silvally kind of has potential? It's just a shame that its stats are only good and not great, and that it's inherently limited due to the inability to hold items (unless you're using normal Silvally. But, honestly, I don't really think there's much appeal in that since Normal as a general type is underwhelming, especially defensively). With Dynamax, though, perhaps this issue could be somewhat remedied. This is namely because it's got offensive options that give it sweeping/cleaning potential with the stat boosts Knuckle, Ooze, and Airstream can provide.

Ultimately, though, if you ask me, I don't really see it getting too far outside of maybe acting as a wedge on balance team archetypes. However, despite that, the fact it doesn't have reliable recovery, the ability to hold an item, and strong offensive stats really hurts it a lot.
 
Based on general consensus, Dynamax will end up banned. It's unfortunate because the game released a little over a week ago, yet there's such a strong calling for this mechanic to be removed. As of now, Dynamax hasn't been given a fair shake but it's obvious that policy makers will take their time before making a decision.

We have to make an honest effort to embrace this mechanic before trashing it. The reason why people are bringing up ditto usage as a sign of an unhealthy metagame is because a majority of people only use hyper offense. If you lose to a Dynamaxed pokemon anytime before early-mid game, you improperly built your team. A mixture of priority, Prankster status, Prankster Sub/Protect stall, Focus Sash, Sturdy, Trick Room, Endeavor, etc are things needed in this meta to ensure you don't get swept. Knowing this, why are we building teams of 5 offensive Pokemon that will get swept if the opponent sets up their Dynamax first? Utility and anti-sweeping sets are more important than ever.

There lies the artistry of the mechanic! This isn't early X/Y where we're forced to use Naganadel just to compete. Dynamax is balanced by the fact that both parties can use it. After understanding what the counters are, skill expression comes into play by virtue that any Pokemon can use it. Actually, timing is skill expression! If Dynamax was an auto win button early game, I'd agree it's problematic but high level matches are revealing that opponents are punished for inappropriate use.

Let the metagame develop with Dynamax first. Everyone agrees that Gyarados and Hawlucha are top abusers but then people spout a much longer list of potential abusers if the aforementioned ended up banned. Isn't that a sign that Dynamax is a mechanic that's more creative than we thought? If we can come up with a list of strong users that rivals the amount of Mega Pokemon in SM OU, that confirms that the metagame has room to grow. (Especially after applying surgical bans)

Approach the game with a new mindset when building your team. Strategize new sets to counter the inevitable while facilitating your own Dynamax. Stall may have taken a backseat this generation but there's a lot of untapped potential especially if we support the metagame.
 
TapuBuluFool said:
We have to make an honest effort to embrace this mechanic before trashing it. The reason why people are bringing up ditto usage as a sign of an unhealthy metagame is because a majority of people only use hyper offense. If you lose to a Dynamaxed pokemon anytime before early-mid game, you improperly built your team. A mixture of priority, Prankster status, Prankster Sub/Protect stall, Focus Sash, Sturdy, Trick Room, Endeavor, etc are things needed in this meta to ensure you don't get swept. Knowing this, why are we building teams of 5 offensive Pokemon that will get swept if the opponent sets up their Dynamax first? Utility and anti-sweeping sets are more important than ever.

After understanding what the counters are, skill expression comes into play by virtue that any Pokemon can use it. Actually, timing is skill expression! If Dynamax was an auto win button early game, I'd agree it's problematic but high level matches are revealing that opponents are punished for inappropriate use.

Let the metagame develop with Dynamax first. Everyone agrees that Gyarados and Hawlucha are top abusers but then people spout a much longer list of potential abusers if the aforementioned ended up banned. Isn't that a sign that Dynamax is a mechanic that's more creative than we thought? If we can come up with a list of strong users that rivals the amount of Mega Pokemon in SM OU, that confirms that the metagame has room to grow. (Especially after applying surgical bans)
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I agree entirely. Compared to Z-moves and Mega's, Dynamax is the biggest ( pardon the pun) and most complex mechanic we have had to date. The fact is, it's far too soon to ban a mechanic outright without extensive testing. Until recently, people thought Dracovish was trash. Rather than discard a mechanic as "broken" before the game has even been out for a full month, extensive testing with new moves and combinations should be done first.

By todays standards, setting up weather with an actual weather move like Sunny Day is bad, but it was strategic counterplay during gen 5 weather wars. I've played both showdown and switch wifi and i'm starting to see alot more moves like Dig and Phantom Force being used by faster pokemon for more turn stalling. I don't think it was a coincidence that game freak added 4 tms with those effects to the crappy movepool, as well as moves like Power, Guard, and Speed Swap.

The big argument against banning specific mons over Dynamax i keep seeing is "something else will just take their place". Maybe, but we haven't done it yet. Frankly, i'd rather not throw away a mechanic that makes alot of mons better, but not broken, then a few mons that can clearly abuse it. The majority of mons in gen 8 can not easily sweep with Dynamax in Gen 8.
 
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