Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion (Usage stats in post #944)

[rubberducky402]

After playing Gen 8 and peaking both ladders I can say I’ve played enough of this early meta to make my post. I want to take about my opinion on the new threats and also controversial Pokémon / strategies in the current meta.

To start, Dynamax is flat out unneeded in our meta. A “kill 2-3 Pokémon” hypebeast button is not healthy for the meta. The main thing that pushes Dynamax over the edge is the fact that you can switch moves when you are Choice locked. Pokémon like Darmanitan, Dragapult, and Barraskwedda can switch moves and completely fuck up your game plan. There is a potential for a game changing 50/50 every other turn. Anything that makes the game less competitive should be removed. Even if it is a mechanic sadly...
However I would like to see Gigantimax stay. I feel like a lot of those Pokémon could strive and removing Dynamax and keeping Gigantimax is not a complex ban by any needs. It also allows us to keep the flavor the original game had in our meta!

Anyways, here are 2 Pokémon I have been loving that people don’t talk enough about it. I could talk about Dracovish, Grimmsnarl, Dracozolt (wait till it gets Sand Rush lmao), G-Darmanitan, Toxtricity, etc... but they are common and if you don’t know me, I hate to repeat shit that has been said

Duraludon

• It actually disappoints me that people don’t use this more often. It’s a great offensive Stealth Rock setter and it gets a ton of switch-in opportunities especially with a Shuca or Chople Berry. Draco Meteor is more spammable on this thing compared to Hydreigon and Dragapult because of its access to STAB Flash Cannon. I can talk about the typing all day long if I wanted to... it’s amazing especially with a resist berry backing it up to pick its checks. The fact this this shit stops Gyarados is a boon to offense.

Obstagoon

• I thought this thing would be ass because it lost Belly Drum + Extremespeed but let’s say I was proven wrong fast. This thing is terrifying. The Bulk Up + 3 Attacks sets is literally impossible to switch into. The fact this Pokémon is a physical attacker that beats Corsola is enough for me to convince you this thing is underrated. Knock Off got shitty distribution this generation so it is awesome this thing gets it. The Choice Band + Parting Shot is fairly good as well. You can either fire off a hit or get some momentum into a set up sweeper.

Enjoy Aegislash and Dugtrio while they are here. They staying low key right now.

 

[Marzbar]

I've also been pretty disappointed by (Specs) Dragapult offensively, 100 SpA just doesn't cut it in modern Pokémon, and I've never been a fan of being Choice-locked. However, I spied the following set from suigin in the Dragapult thread, and it's intriguing.

It fills extra role compression as a spinblocker and a Toxtricity 'wall' too, something that gives Grimmsnarl (and half the meta) a lot of trouble. I can't run calcs atm but I'm excited to hit the drawing board with this set and see what damage it's able to take with a defensive spread. Dragapult has Twave & WoW to choose from as well, which is juicy.
One thing I'd really, really like to know is if Infiltrator applies to status moves as well as damaging attacks. That sounds too good to be true, though, so I doubt it. At any rate, I could see Infiltrator Breaking Swipe/Scald having some utility. Scalding something through a Substitute sounds like exactly the kind of devilry that gets me up in the morning.

Try using Infiltrator and Dragon Tail over Cursed Body and Darts. Stops things setting up on you and you can phase them through a substitute. And also move the Atk EVs to HP for bulk, for allowing more chances at setting up screens.

 

[chimp]

First of all, the original comment was exactly right -- if you make this so different from the original that it's nearly unrecognizable, Smogon will eventually die off as the number of players looking to make their way into truly competitive Pokemon gradually decrease. Though it may not be noted, Smogon does optimize for being faithful to the game -- why else would have limits on what you can and can't change? Smogon OU pokemon is pretty competitive, but why have crits? Why have 95% accuracy moves? This game is fundamentally not designed to be competitive, and Smogon rules have got it into a competitively playable state while still being faithful to the core mechanics and design of the base material. It was never meant to be and never will be chess.

Banning Dynamax, should it happen, would be entirely a tiering decision. No modding (of the base game) would have to occure to enforce it. Sure, on Pokemon Showdown, they would just remove the Dynamax button, but, even with Dynamax gone it would *still* be completely possible to play the game, by Smogon rulesets, on the cartridge. Just don't press the Dynamax button. The comparison to critical hits and accuracy is a faulty one here, because that would require a fundamental modding step that Smogon has rarely (if ever) made. To quote the Tiering Policy:

IV.) Probability management is a part of the game.

• This means we have to accept that moves have secondary effects, that moves can miss, that moves can critical hit, and that managing all these potential probability points is a part of skill.
• This does NOT mean that we will accept every probability factor introduced to the game. Evasion, OHKO moves, and Moody all affected the outcome "too much", and we removed them.
• "Too much" is if a particular factor has the more skilled player at a disadvantage a considerable amount of the time against a less skilled player, regardless of what they do.

Dealing with probability is part of Pokemon. But dealing with a broken mechanic is not. It's not much different than banning Mega-Metagross or a box legend. As I said in my previous post, there already exists a perfect way to play the game competitively while staying 100% accurate to the cart rules. It's by playing on cart. Just by virtue of playing on simulator you are leaving the realm of what the game allows. Anecdotally, all of my competitive playing friends (even those who do not engage with Smogon) follow Smogon rulesets. Is it because they are seeking a perfect representation of the in-game play? No. It's because its the most fair way to play. But that is a debate that goes far deeper than what this thread is for. In my opinion, a mechanic that fundamentally breaks the game and makes it less fun to play is far more dangerous to Smogon than a strict adherence to the cart. Atleast in this case. Besides, "official" competitive Pokemon is VGC and Battle Spot, which have their places on Smogon as well.

 

[Archetipus]

I don't get all this complain about dinamax/hyper offence being OP, I'm probably playing vs not so skilled opponents, but i'm actually 13-0 with a stall team based on corsola toxapex ferrothorn core, and I fought plenty of gyarados, darmiatan, excadrill and so on. I was able to manage them all. If you play Ho Vs Ho ofc the match is decided on speed tie and dinamax going 6-0, just adapt your play style and you fill find this gen enjoyable.

 

[Dark Nikuman]

I've been playing since the release and been in top ladder on both Beta and now, atm top 50(Charizard Broken) and I made a youtube channel to share some gameplay and thoughts (shoot me a dm if interested).

Check the Screenshot for ladder, I dropped a few positions due to other people pushing.

I will say a few things but first: Dynamax shouldn't be banned!
Why?
Well you learn how to play against it and how to exploit it, I like the fact that if you get creative you can reverse sweep with a single pokemon a full team.

Protect, baneful bunker and king's shield have always been among my favorite moves in this gen, you stall and check so much bullshit.
Like choice users, dynamax turns etc.. a few pokemon I'd advice to use those: Ferrothorn, Toxapex, Clefable, Umbrean, Aegislash, Togekiss and Rotom Forms(it uses Volt switch, STAB, WOW/TW, Protect).

If you have protect and catch someone dynamaxing it's much easier to respond, Toxapex is god.

Hazard control has never been messier, a ton of defoggers and exca everywhere YET when you need them it's pretty hard to let them do their job when they risk getting KOd by what they should check.

Favourite Dynamaxers would be: Hydreigon, Gyarados, Charizard, Gengar, Corviknight. For obvious reasons.

Darmanitan is broken if banded, if scarfed you can play around it.

Substitute is a must on set up sweepers example: Gyarados, hydreigon and Corviknight.

Ditto is either your savior or what ruins you because of substitute, at this point people have adapted to ditto being omnipresent.

Dracovish is more broken than Dynamax.

Hawlucha sucks, idk maybe I've been overprepared for it but I've never struggled beating it, just feels too frail and doesn't setup on anything worth of note, also gets destroyed by ditto.

Shoot me any questions if you want.

Peace.

 

[UnfortunateSal]

Hi, I think Dracovish needs to go. In fact, I would argue that it is more broken than Darmanitan, its closest comparaison at the moment, and here's why:

On paper, Darmanitan is harder to check (because it's faster), and harder to counter (because of its coverage). But there's one very important thing Dracovish has over Darmanitan: ease of use. Darmanitan is extremely strong, but you can play around it by taking advantage of its Choice locks through good predictions between your Ice resists and Fire resists. Though it does get U-Turn as a way of easing that, it can also be played around and forces Darmanitan to find another opportunity to switch in again, which is hard for it as a SR weak pokemon with a horrible defensive typing.

Dracovish, meanwhile, can't be outplayed in the same way. You know what it's going to do, you just... can't do anything to stop it, because that single move just mauls everything. And while you can use Water absorbers like Jellicent or quad water resists such as Appletun against it, those are few and far between, and are, generally speaking, easy to take advantage of in other ways. Not to mention that Dracovish has far better defensive typing and bulk (it has comparable defenses to Keldeo, one of the prime expamles of an offensive threat with good bulk) and thus, can find way more opportunities to switch in against the likes of Barraskewda and Flare Blitz locked Darmanitan itself.

So yeah, Dracovish took a while to get attention but it has revealed itself to be an incredibly dominant threat and imo is just completely overwheling, even in this very fast-paced offensive tier. I imagine that if/when it leaves, Dracozolt will take its place, but its accuracy issues, the presence of great Ground-types in the tier, and the fact that its STAB is not boosted even further by rain means it's likely to be perfectly banaced and manageable, although I suppose only time will tell.

 

[peng]

...if you make this so different from the original that it's nearly unrecognizable, Smogon will eventually die off as the number of players looking to make their way into truly competitive Pokemon gradually decrease.

You have this backwards. If we just played singles 6v6 Pokemon exactly as intended then it'd be nowhere near as competitive and there wouldn't be anywhere near as many people putting time into playing it. There's a reason why, even amongst casual players, the Smogon ruleset has been the go-to choice for singles format over Battle Spot 3v3.

I also think you underestimate how much your average casual player values a game that is balanced and rewards skill over one that simply mimics exactly what is possible on cart. I think this is reflected in the fact that competitive Pokemon's playerbase on Smogon has gone from strength to strength despite several fan-favourite Pokemon getting hit with bans over the past few generations (notably Garchomp / Salamence in DPP, Blaziken in BW, Aegislash / Blaziken / MLuke / MGengar / MMence in XY, and the same + MMetagross in SM). If the casual fanbase was as fickle about "fun" mechanics over the game actually being decent to play, why have we had such an influx of new players on our simulators and forums over that time? On the other hand, if we didn't ban all these Pokemon in order to keep casual fans happy, would our top level competitive scene be in the same place as it is now? I highly doubt it.

I think another important thing to note is that every generation has more than one change or gimmick over the previous one, so its nonsensical to preserve an oppressive mechanic simply because it apparently "defines" the generation from the previous one. Gen 5, for example, is often thought of as the weather war format, but its only thought of in that way because we decided against simulating blatantly broken, "Gen 5-defining" mechanic in Wonder Launcher. Similarly, Gen 6 brought Mega Evolutions, but even beyond that brought in a huge number of other mechanics changes that mean that Mega-less Gen 6 OU would be hugely different to Gen 5 OU (fairy typing, Defog buff completely changed the game). Gen 7 OU is thought of as the Z-move generation, but its highly likely that if we'd have banned it early on we would all be looking back on it as the Terrain generation. Every generation has more than one defining characteristic that means that they are vastly different to the prior - this isn't an argument to keep in a mechanic.

With relevance to Gen 8, are all the "Dynamax defines the generation" folks forgetting that over half the Pokedex got cut in this generation? Hidden Power got axed? Trapping is basically eradicated because Magnezone and Pursuit don't exist? Surely that alone is enough to make this generation hugely different from the prior ones, even in the absence of Dynamax? People (not me) have been crying out for a good format without Heatran and Landorus-T for years on end now, and as soon as we are close to actually having one its instead being kept in a near unplayable state for the sake of preserving the "uniqueness" of Dynamax.

 

[HannibalLekter]

Hawlucha sucks, idk maybe I've been overprepared for it but I've never struggled beating it, just feels too frail and doesn't setup on anything worth of note, also gets destroyed by ditto.

Shoot me any questions if you want.

Peace.

Hawlucha is the Dynamax crew's best answer to Ditto. Ditto is a disgusting revenge sweeper because of the ability to copy stat boosts and outspeed with choice scarf: unburden takes that power away by allowing Hawlucha to outspeed scarfed Ditto because Ditto doesn't copy unburden's boost. Combine that with great speed, godly offensive typing, and access to the two best Max-moves as STAB and you have the only Dynamax sweeper that can sweep through a scarfed Ditto (and you hit for super effective damage on your counterpart with your maxed lightning punch.)

 

[Dark Nikuman]

Hawlucha is the Dynamax crew's best answer to Ditto. Ditto is a disgusting revenge sweeper because of the ability to copy stat boosts and outspeed with choice scarf: unburden takes that power away by allowing Hawlucha to outspeed scarfed Ditto because Ditto doesn't copy unburden's boost. Combine that with great speed, godly offensive typing, and access to the two best Max-moves as STAB and you have the only Dynamax sweeper that can sweep through a scarfed Ditto (and you hit for super effective damage on your counterpart with your maxed lightning punch.)

I run ditto only in a balance deck so usually it just wastes the item and the second time it comes in I just revenge kill with ditto, but anyway it's too "ideal" of a pokemon for me to even try, key point is to keep up the pressure so it can't freely set up, I've sacked pokemon just so the opponent doesn't have that crucial turn.
It either 6-0s or does nothing and corviknight is decent against it and always kos, if he tryes to fire punch it still isn't ohko(correct me if I'm wrong) also I rarely ever see it for some reason maybe I'm just lucky.

You lose to it if you're not skillfull in the game I can agree with that.

Share some good sets I'll try it on my second/third account (top 300-500) and let you know.

 

[Sharqi]

You have this backwards. If we just played singles 6v6 Pokemon exactly as intended then it'd be nowhere near as competitive and there wouldn't be anywhere near as many people putting time into playing it. There's a reason why, even amongst casual players, the Smogon ruleset has been the go-to choice for singles format over Battle Spot 3v3.

What do you mean by "as intended"? The only "intended" singles format is 3vs3 with item clause. And no, console players by and large do not use Smogon rules. Some might, but there's more than enough players who do not care or even know about Smogon. In Japan singles is always played 3vs3 with item clause, not sure how it is in the West.

Every 6vs6 format is a fan project with unofficial rules, which is why arguments like this

if you make this so different from the original that it's nearly unrecognizable, Smogon will eventually die off as the number of players looking to make their way into truly competitive Pokemon gradually decrease.

are absolute nonsense. As far as I can remember (which is 2013), Smogon OU has been completely different from ingame singles. And people still played OU didn't they?

 

[ChrisSweeper]

As far as I can remember (which is 2013), Smogon OU has been completely different from ingame singles. And people still played OU didn't they?

The point is that people can come here for the guides which are mostly applicable to the console format, then maybe they visit the forums and stay for the "more balanced" Smogon format and start playing outside of their console.

Banning Dynamax would go a long way to making those guides useless for console play, making those players lose matches to not knowing how to counter Dynamax users. So you choke off community growth.

I don't know, maybe it's just me that comes here every time a new game is released to get strategies for console play?

 

[Volarion]

Banning Dynamax, should it happen, would be entirely a tiering decision. No modding (of the base game) would have to occure to enforce it. Sure, on Pokemon Showdown, they would just remove the Dynamax button, but, even with Dynamax gone it would *still* be completely possible to play the game, by Smogon rulesets, on the cartridge. Just don't press the Dynamax button. The comparison to critical hits and accuracy is a faulty one here, because that would require a fundamental modding step that Smogon has rarely (if ever) made. To quote the Tiering Policy:



Dealing with probability is part of Pokemon. But dealing with a broken mechanic is not. It's not much different than banning Mega-Metagross or a box legend. As I said in my previous post, there already exists a perfect way to play the game competitively while staying 100% accurate to the cart rules. It's by playing on cart. Just by virtue of playing on simulator you are leaving the realm of what the game allows. Anecdotally, all of my competitive playing friends (even those who do not engage with Smogon) follow Smogon rulesets. Is it because they are seeking a perfect representation of the in-game play? No. It's because its the most fair way to play. But that is a debate that goes far deeper than what this thread is for. In my opinion, a mechanic that fundamentally breaks the game and makes it less fun to play is far more dangerous to Smogon than a strict adherence to the cart. Atleast in this case. Besides, "official" competitive Pokemon is VGC and Battle Spot, which have their places on Smogon as well.

My point here wasn't to get into the nitty gritty of complex vs. non complex bans. The post I was replying to stated that the objective was to make the most competitive game possible, which is patently false. There are limitations on what changes Smogon considers allowable or not (like the complex bans or changes you pointed out), and it is these limitations that prevent a "perfectly" competitive game like Chess. It's pretty clear that Smogon's intention IS to try to stay faithful to whatever extent is possible to the core games. It's what makes this community strong and keeps it growing.

But that is a debate that goes far deeper than what this thread is for. In my opinion, a mechanic that fundamentally breaks the game and makes it less fun to play is far more dangerous to Smogon than a strict adherence to the cart.

That's entirely your opinion: both "breaks" the game" and "less fun to play" are subjective and not rooted in fact. To dig a little deeper into "breaking," didn't nearly every team have a Z-move or mega in previous gens? How is Dynamax less "fair" when both teams can have it? My subjective opinion is that Dynamax is a breath of fresh air into the meta that makes things more interesting. It's no more or less objective than your "less fun" contention, but it's just as valid.

 

[volx757]

The point is that people can come here for the guides which are mostly applicable to the console format, then maybe they visit the forums and stay for the "more balanced" Smogon format and start playing outside of their console.

Banning Dynamax would go a long way to making those guides useless for console play, making those players lose matches to not knowing how to counter Dynamax users. So you choke off community growth.

I don't know, maybe it's just me that comes here every time a new game is released to get strategies for console play?

There have always been VGC guides for relevant pokemon in nintendo's own format, and I'm sure they will eventually be written in this generation, too. When you say 'guides' I assume you're talking about the strategy dex, so you won't need to worry about losing those.

But everyone knows smogon is it's own thing, and the community has never catered to console or other formats outside of the specific forums for those formats. You're asking that the 99% of PS! players make concessions to the 1% (probly less than that tbh) of players who play console competitively, but not so competitively that they are aiming for VGC.

I think you are vastly over-estimating how much of the player base comes from console.

 

[Hobie]

It almost entirely removes stallmons being viable. I enjoy the "haha you are dead now" than the "haha you cant do anything" of gen 7. We know that people will continue to play gen 7 and older generations they like. And personally I enjoy how fast paced gen 8 OU is right now. It's a breath of fresh air. even fishious rend and Corsola I was able to get around because of dynamaxing. And when I lost to it I felt I had made mistakes to let it win, or needed to adjust my team more. The main thing I like about the current meta is I don't see as much stalling. Which I hated about gen 7. Walls cant really beat Dynamax pokemon, and if you try to wall them out the dynamaxed mon gets to set up to sweep.

This is (at least in my opinion) the biggest problem with dynamax. While you might not like playing against stall it isn't any less valid of a playstyle, and dynamax more or less making stall unviable is ridiculous. If there was a mechanic that made HO or balance completely unviable it would be rightfully banned almost instantly, however due to people hating stall this hasn't happened.

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

After playing Gen 8 and peaking both ladders I can say I’ve played enough of this early meta to make my post. I want to take about my opinion on the new threats and also controversial Pokémon / strategies in the current meta.

To start, Dynamax is flat out unneeded in our meta. A “kill 2-3 Pokémon” hypebeast button is not healthy for the meta. The main thing that pushes Dynamax over the edge is the fact that you can switch moves when you are Choice locked. Pokémon like Darmanitan, Dragapult, and Barraskwedda can switch moves and completely fuck up your game plan. There is a potential for a game changing 50/50 every other turn. Anything that makes the game less competitive should be removed. Even if it is a mechanic sadly...
However I would like to see Gigantimax stay. I feel like a lot of those Pokémon could strive and removing Dynamax and keeping Gigantimax is not a complex ban by any needs. It also allows us to keep the flavor the original game had in our meta!

Anyways, here are 2 Pokémon I have been loving that people don’t talk enough about it. I could talk about Dracovish, Grimmsnarl, Dracozolt (wait till it gets Sand Rush lmao), G-Darmanitan, Toxtricity, etc... but they are common and if you don’t know me, I hate to repeat shit that has been said

Duraludon

• It actually disappoints me that people don’t use this more often. It’s a great offensive Stealth Rock setter and it gets a ton of switch-in opportunities especially with a Shuca or Chople Berry. Draco Meteor is more spammable on this thing compared to Hydreigon and Dragapult because of its access to STAB Flash Cannon. I can talk about the typing all day long if I wanted to... it’s amazing especially with a resist berry backing it up to pick its checks. The fact this this shit stops Gyarados is a boon to offense.

Obstagoon

• I thought this thing would be ass because it lost Belly Drum + Extremespeed but let’s say I was proven wrong fast. This thing is terrifying. The Bulk Up + 3 Attacks sets is literally impossible to switch into. The fact this Pokémon is a physical attacker that beats Corsola is enough for me to convince you this thing is underrated. Knock Off got shitty distribution this generation so it is awesome this thing gets it. The Choice Band + Parting Shot is fairly good as well. You can either fire off a hit or get some momentum into a set up sweeper.

Enjoy Aegislash and Dugtrio while they are here. They staying low key right now.

gigatimax is just dynamax with special moves and like 20 mons. It's still broken because again - dynamax is a fundamentally broken mechanic. The choice is def an issue but also just the setup is absolutely ridiculous lol and we both know you're aware of that. (it's also sort of random bc u can run multiple viable gigantimaxers who also all carry items).

anyway - I actually have been using modest sash steel dragon with steel beam, Draco, bolt and rocks and it is VERY good. I especially love steel beaming at low percentages bc u nuke and kill urself. It's like a steel explosion, but you can do it twice.

for the obstagoon - obstruct honestly is amazing lmao slightly broken too but it's all good this generation has a lot of broken shit

 

[chimp]

My point here wasn't to get into the nitty gritty of complex vs. non complex bans. The post I was replying to stated that the objective was to make the most competitive game possible, which is patently false. There are limitations on what changes Smogon considers allowable or not (like the complex bans or changes you pointed out), and it is these limitations that prevent a "perfectly" competitive game like Chess. It's pretty clear that Smogon's intention IS to try to stay faithful to whatever extent is possible to the core games. It's what makes this community strong and keeps it growing.


That's entirely your opinion: both "breaks" the game" and "less fun to play" are subjective and not rooted in fact. To dig a little deeper into "breaking," didn't nearly every team have a Z-move or mega in previous gens? How is Dynamax less "fair" when both teams can have it? My subjective opinion is that Dynamax is a breath of fresh air into the meta that makes things more interesting. It's no more or less objective than your "less fun" contention, but it's just as valid.

Let me rephrase. Smogon's goal is to keep the game as competitive as possible within the confines of the base game. This is why banning Pokemon is acceptable, but changing game mechanics is not. Besides, the main reason for avoiding complex bans has never solely been to stay as true to in-game as possible. Swift Swim + Rain ban in Gen 5 set the precedent for that. In what Smogon is trying to achieve, simplicity is the usually the most effective option. In addition, I do not agree that those are entirely subjective points. We, as a playerbase and community, have agreed upon elements of the game that make it competitive. We have those elements laid out in the Tiering Policy and any arguments for or against something being broken should be first put to the test of what we deem makes Pokemon competitive in the first place. These are things that have become standard after hundreds of hours of discussion across decades of playing the game.

 

[Morkal]

Jesus christ can you all stop repeating the same talking points about Dynamax every five damn minutes? There's a council discussing them right now. This thread is just getting obnoxious at this point.

I'd like to bring up a Pokemon that not a lot of people are talking about - Morpeko.

Sure it's frail and its offensive stats could be better, but Electric / Dark is a great typing, its signature move Aura Wheel is a 110 BP STAB that has a 100% chance to boost your speed by one (with a base 97 speed, Morpeko gets fast, QUICK), with great coverage with moves like Seed Bomb. Along with this, it has access to insane utility like Parting Shot, and is the second fastest Rapid Spinner available (only outsped by Galarian Mr. Mime who is far more unviable).

This is the main set I've been running lately.

Morpeko @ Life Orb
Ability: Hunger Switch
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Aura Wheel
- Rapid Spin
- Seed Bomb
- Parting Shot

 

[DrPumpkinz]

The point is that people can come here for the guides which are mostly applicable to the console format, then maybe they visit the forums and stay for the "more balanced" Smogon format and start playing outside of their console.

Banning Dynamax would go a long way to making those guides useless for console play, making those players lose matches to not knowing how to counter Dynamax users. So you choke off community growth.

I don't know, maybe it's just me that comes here every time a new game is released to get strategies for console play?

Smogon OU is not, and has never been, a good guide for general console play, as it will never prepare you for dealing with Ubers. Smogon OU also doesn't care about how difficult it is to obtain something, while accessibility will definitely impact how popular something is on console. The only time Smogon will properly prepare you for console play is if you're battling a friend, you both agree to follow Smogon's rules, and you're both willing to acquire hard-to-get mons and sets through exhaustive transfering, getting lucky with Wonder Trade, or just simple hacking.

In short, if you come to Smogon for strategies against strangers on console, then you're coming to the wrong place.

 

[earl]

Dracovish is just getting the Xurkitree treatment. People will adapt and get over the fear factor.

Barely comparable tbh- Xurk requires 1 turn of setup to actually start breaking things whereas Dracovish is 2HKOing everything off the bat (with much better bulk and a great defensive typing). I don’t think it’s banworthy at the moment, but later down the line in a post dynamax meta (it can be adapted to but I still think it’s lame and unfun, not to mention overwhelmingly offense-biased and type-preferential. Ban plz) Dracovish could end up being a problematic breaker against any team archetype that can’t afford to pack one of it’s like 3 situational counters.

Actually now that I think of it, Xurk is more like dracozolt with the devastating electric STAB balanced out by ground-types existing

 

[MeepBard]

gigatimax is just dynamax with special moves and like 20 mons. It's still broken because again - dynamax is a fundamentally broken mechanic. The choice is def an issue but also just the setup is absolutely ridiculous lol and we both know you're aware of that. (it's also sort of random bc u can run multiple viable gigantimaxers who also all carry items).

i disagree with this - i think gigantamaxing is fine to stay mainly due to the fact that you can tell which mons have the ability to gigantamax and thus pack counterplay to it, all but like 3-4 of them are worse than their dynamax cousins, and they can be banned individually (because much like megas and unlike dynamax, they're considered as different formes; thus you can ban the g-max form while leaving the base form intact).

i think gigantamax should be given a fair shot and shouldn't be blanket banned if dynamax goes. this is just my take tho

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

i disagree with this - i think gigantamaxing is fine to stay mainly due to the fact that you can tell which mons have the ability to gigantamax and thus pack counterplay to it, all but like 3-4 of them are worse than their dynamax cousins, and they can be banned individually (because much like megas and unlike dynamax, they're considered as different formes; thus you can ban the g-max form while leaving the base form intact).

i think gigantamax should be given a fair shot and shouldn't be blanket banned if dynamax goes. this is just my take tho

I just want to give context on what you're saying so that everyone here is in the proper mindset. Here is a list of all gigantimax moves and users: https://www.dexerto.com/pokemon/pokemon-sword-and-shield-list-gigantamax-g-max-moves-1287418

The most egregious being
Gengar Ghost G-Max Terror - Prevents Pokemon from fleeing or switching out

Charizard Fire G-Max Wildfire - Inflicts damage to non-Fire Pokemon for five turn

Drednaw Water G-Max Stonesurge - Places stealth rocks on the field

Copperajah Steel G-Max Steelsurge - Places steel type stealth rocks on the field (keep in mind you can have regular stealth rocks and steel stealth rocks on the field)

Melmetal Steel G-Max Meltdown - Opponent can't use the same move twice in a row

Grimmsnarl Dark G-Max Snooze - Puts opponents to sleep on the next turn

Toxitricity Electric G-Max Stun Shock - Paralyzes or poisons opponent
&
Lapras Ice G-Max Resonance - Reduces damage received for five turns

Keep in mind, these folks can still use regular dynamax moves and still snowball random and stack, but you just want to keep them in there because of some arbitrary loyalty to a game mechanic. This is a fundamentally broken mechanic made for children, it has no place in the metagame. You do not, I repeat do not know which mon is going to gigantimax and neither do you know when it decides to. So unless you want to ban every single one of these besides Pikachu, eveee, and meowth, all NFE mons, I don't see what your goal is. Even snorlax is broken as hell with gigantimax regardless of it's actual specialized move being mid. Stop this

 

[Zentrius]

Barely comparable tbh- Xurk requires 1 turn of setup to actually start breaking things whereas Dracovish is 2HKOing everything off the bat (with much better bulk and a great defensive typing). I don’t think it’s banworthy at the moment, but later down the line in a post dynamax meta (it can be adapted to but I still think it’s lame and unfun, not to mention overwhelmingly offense-biased and type-preferential. Ban plz) Dracovish could end up being a problematic breaker against any team archetype that can’t afford to pack one of it’s like 3 situational counters.

Actually now that I think of it, Xurk is more like dracozolt with the devastating electric STAB balanced out by ground-types existing

isnt it hilarious how xurkitree offensive stat almost doubles dracovish's yet the little fishy is the ony who is breaking things left and right

i agree with this. i know we all are putting our attention into gyarados, hawlucha, excadrill etc but once everything settles and after the potential dynamax ban, dracovish will be terrifying. i dont know if its gonna be centralizing, but i defienitely thing the fish will be a top 5 pokemon after everything has been said and done.

 

[Morkal]

To detract from the Dynamax discussion again, I'd like to present you all with a Pokemon that is being criminally underlooked right now, Lucario.

Lucario:

Stats:
HP: 70
Atk: 110
Def: 70
SpA: 115
SpD: 70
Spe: 90
​

Lucario is an absolute monster right now, and relatively anti-meta. Not only did it get a ton of new tools to work with in Sword and Shield (including some interesting new moves), but it didn't lose any relevant moves during the Sword and Shield switch. Let me explain several reasons why Lucario is so underlooked right now.

1. The slower pace of the metagame in some playstyles: Lucario has base 90 speed, want to know what mons Lucario naturally outspeeds? Excadrill, the Rotom appliances (bar the Electric / Ghost variant which is rare), Rillaboom, Durladon, Kommo-O, Gyarados, Chandelure, Mamoswine, Gardevoir, etc. 90 is a really solid tier right now. Sticky Webs support is always appreciated.

2. Steel / Fighting type is great and its STAB combination nails many Pokemon in the tier super effectively. Not to mention the amount of unreal coverage moves it has (along with ways of boosting all these moves such as Swords Dance, Nasty Plot, Power-Up Punch, etc).

3. Its offensive stats are even better now, and it can run either Physical or Special sets adding to its unpredictability. The Special sets got a new tool in STAB Steel Beam which will absolutely decimate anything with a Nasty Plot boost (if you don't like the HP loss, STAB NP boosted Flash Cannon still hits like an absolute truck). It also has access to to both Physical and Special STAB priority (Bullet Punch, Vacuum Wave).

Relevant Physical Movepool: Blaze Kick, Bullet Punch (STAB Priority), Circle Throw (Stab Phazing), Close Combat (STAB), Cross Chop (STAB), Crunch, Drain Punch (STAB Recovery), Earthquake, Extremespeed (Priority), High Jump Kick (STAB), Ice Punch, Meteor Mash (STAB), Poison Jab, Power-Up Punch (STAB Boosting), Rock Slide, Shadow Claw, Stone Edge, Thunder Punch, Zen Headbutt.

Relevant Special Movepool: Aura Sphere (STAB Never Miss), Dark Pulse, Dragon Pulse, Flash Cannon (STAB), Focus Blast (STAB), Psychic, Shadow Ball, Steel Beam (STAB), Vacuum Wave (STAB Priority).

Relevant Miscellaneous Movepool: Agility (Speed Boost), Bulk Up (Attack and Defense Boost), Calm Mind (SpA and SpD Boost), Final Gambit, Life Dew (Recovery), Nasty Plot (+2 SpA Boost), Substitute, Swords Dance (+2 Attack Boost)

Mostly I've been running a Nasty Plot variant with Aura Sphere, Flash Cannon, and Dark Pulse and it's been working really well. But the set possibilities are literally endless.

Edit: It was pointed out to me by The Black Hippopotas that Steadfast (one of Lucario's abilities) boosts speed by +1 whenever a Flinch move is used, which can help Lucario even more with faster Pokemon.

 

[Harmless]

Thought I'd give my two cents on the gigantamax vs dynamax thing, despite this thread looking like an echo chamber.

I'm leaning towards the side of if dynamax goes, so does gigantamax. Like yeah, they look pretty funky and some of them can't spam weather, BUT! They still do all the same broken junk that regular dynamax does.
I've been using G-max Drednaw lately, and wowie is he still broken like every other dynamax. G-max still snowballs like regular D-max.
I feel like people want to keep it around because it changes the appearance of the pokemon akin to megas, and there's like are a select few that are worse than regular d-max, but still. I don't think G-max should be safe from the D-max ban hammer.

 

[Yung Dramps]

With a few more games under my belt, I wanna talk about some of my favorite Pokemon to use in the current meta. Not the best, mind you: My personal favorites.

I put these two together because they accomplish roughly the same things at a basic level: Both are Psychic type Choice Scarf users that in particular excel at ruining the various appearances and combos of Galarian Corsola, Ferrothorn and Toxapex. Now of course they have some key differences that suit them for different types of teams, and I'll go into those starting with Indeedee.

Going all the way back to when the Galar Pokedex was first leaked, initially nobody suspected much of Indeedee, figuring it'd be either another Chansey clone or some weird gimmick mon. Then GF decided to go stupid and give it decent offenses and motherfucking Psychic Surge. Put a Scarf on this bad boy and you can feel free to spam Psychic assuming no Dark types are in front of you, with Trick and Mystical Fire being the kind of utility Tapu Lele would've killed for. The 95 speed tier is really great for that role, getting that critical tie with Galarian Darmanitan. Speaking of which, auto Psychic Terrain is awesome support for all the crazy all-out attackers and sweepers available, making them even harder to revenge kill.

Then there's Gardevoir. Basically in exchange for Psychic Surge and some speed you get Fairy STAB, better all-around power and another great ability in Trace, which among other things allows it to revenge kill Barraskewda and Excadrill by tracing their weather abilities assuming they are weakened slightly beforehand, as well as just being a very clutch ability on its own. Gardevoir is better suited for teams that have a poorer match-up against Dark and Fighting types, as well as for teams who don't entirely appreciate Psychic Terrain due to having priority abusers like the next Pokemon I wanna talk about.

I touched upon this in a team I shared a while back, but I wanna re-iterate how insanely slept-on Durant is. Forget Nasty Plot's increased distribution or post-Rapid Spin buff Excadrill, First Impression Durant is one of the top 5 buffs of the generation, capable of absurd feats like potentially two-shotting Gyarados and OHKOing Max HP Grimmsnarl courtesy of Hustle and Life Orb. It is FAR from a one-trick pony either: Even if the foe can endure that first move they gotta contend with powerful coverage like Iron Head, Superpower and Thunder Fang afterward, ESPECIALLY if they attempted to switch in on another attack. For instance, Ferrothorn can switch into First Impression fine, but even the most physically defensive variants cannot withstand the following Superpower:

quick maffs

252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant First Impression vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 152-179 (43.1 - 50.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 268-317 (76.1 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Also, I'm sure you've noticed how I've been talking about the Life Orb set. It may be tempting, but please, please do not run Choice Band. It's super unreliable even with Dynamax bypassing it and just leaves you as a sitting duck after clicking First Impression. Life Orb is way better for abusing Durant's unique traits and coverage. If anything, I'd honestly say Scarf would be a better Choice item for it: At least that helps bolster its really nice 109 speed and outpace other major scarfers.

This one's a little memey, but hear me out, because as a Nasty Plot Dynamaxer I sincerely believe that Rotom-Fan has some useful traits over Rotom-Heat and Togekiss. Outside of Dynamax, Air Slash is a far more reliable STAB that doesn't make you worry over losing your Nasty Plot boost like Rotom-H's Overheat. Within Dynamax, Max Airstream is as busted as it always is, letting you gimp Scarf RKers. Meanwhile, compared to Togekiss, Rotom-F has Electric STAB to muscle past Gyarados and Rotom-Wash and can switch around a lot with Volt Switch and a higher speed tier. All in all not particularly great and far from common, but if you want a hybrid between Rotom-Heat and Togekiss, Fantom's your guy.

My epic set

Rotom-Fan @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Air Slash
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch

To conclude this post, I wanna give a bit of a PSA.

I get that there's lots of frustration with this meta right now. Dynamax and certain threats like Galarian Darmanitan and Ditto are definitely constraining. Some are even saying the meta's already gone stale and that this spells doom for the entire generation's run. I see that, I can see all of that. But y'know what? At the end of the day, I still have huge optimism and hope for Sword and Shield OU's future. For starters, I believe the complaints of staleness are largely unfounded, and that it can solely be accredited to people not experimenting enough. Remember, we've only just realized how incredibly dangerous Dracovish is, and I'm sure there's plenty of similar, albeit perhaps not as meta-altering discoveries to be made. What I've shown you today are just some of the overlooked menaces hiding within the cracks, and I have heard talks on the OU room and seen players harnessing the potential of plenty of other sleeper Pokemon: Braviary, Pincurchin, Silvally, Charizard, Drednaw, Bisharp, Obstagoon, the list goes on and on and on. In fact, I'm willing to argue that we are seeing the opposite of the typical early-generation cycle: Instead of the first few days being a massive mishmash of new and old being steadily compressed into a tighter meta with clearly defined good and bad Pokemon, we are instead getting a meta that seems stale at first but is blooming into something far more diverse and creative as we speak. And when the inevitable Dynamax suspect comes to our doorstep, I hope the community makes the right choice and does what is needed to let that bloom continue unimpeded into the beautiful flower of a new golden age for the OU tier.