Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Usage Stats in post #581]

Status
Not open for further replies.
even beyond the fact that darm-g is banned and not relevant anymore, not only is rapidash not an ou relevant poke by any stretch of the words it loses 40-50% hp every time it comes in on literally any of darm-g's moves and it's power is so low you can switch out with almost no punish. If you have rocks up you literally just click u turn once on rapidash and it can now never come in on darm-g, or just switch out when it comes in on an ice crash and still loses 75% of it's hp.

Revenging darm-g was never exactly the issue, there are other, better pokes than can do that.
 
PokemonTrainerLui said:
They shouldn't ban Arena Trap because it isn't broken on Trapinch. Quick Ban Dugtrio is the way to go.
Click to expand...

didn't the last time they tested duggy and not arena trap people literally started using trapinch and diglett. I'm not saying it makes an arena trap quickban a given (tbh I think a quickban on duggy and a general test on arena trap is far more reasonable or just an outright suspect on one or the other), but arena trap may actually be broken on trapinch.

Problem with arena trap is that the threshold for being a good arena trap user is far, far lower than most other abilities. You actually have to be a decent poke to back up speed boost or huge power, but with arena trap, all you have to do is be able to still snipe the specific pokes you're looking to snipe with dugtrio. Even if trapinch is a total joke of a mon if it can snipe what you want it to snipe it's worth it. The play pattern for arena trap users is largely 'come in, snipe poke, guess I'll just die'. It doesn't take that good of a poke to fulfill those conditions.
 
Last edited:
For the sake of my sanity as well as Gary's, I'm going to try to steer discussion away from Dugtrio.

Which pokemon will improve in the GDarm-less meta?

I expect Kommo-o to be very good since its Clangerous Soul set no longer has to worry about being revenged by Scarf Darm. Reuniclus was also threatened by Darm's U-Turn and Icicle Crash spam so I expect it to improve as well.

What splashable breakers/scarfers will take its place?

I'm a big fan of Hydreigon for both roles, it's a nightmare for slow teams to deal with and it can't be trapped by mole-who-must-not-be-named. Rotom-Heat will be good at both roles despite it no longer being useful as a Darm check. I predict that Togekiss and Dracovish will also be useful. Come to think of it, there are a lot of mons that can make good use of scarf or serve as wallbreakers.

What else will a meta without GDarm look like?

I think losing GDarm will help HO a little since Kommo-o will be more viable now. Bulky offense and balance will benefit the most since they don't have to fruitlessly attempt to switch around it during the game, and stall probably won't be affected much. The rise of new breakers will likely prove threatening for slower builds that don't have any way of revenge killing them. I say revenge-killing because I don't believe certain mons, like Hydreigon, can actually be walled. In general teambuilding will be less brainless so that's a plus. It may have been BlazeLatias who said in the OU room on Showdown that SPL will look a mix of bulky offense and "Corv + Pex + Dug + Fat" teams. Seems accurate to me, but I'm excited to see how the meta develops during SPL.
 
Last edited:
Thoughts from the trenches:

1577662023836.png

With the removal of Darmanitan, Dragon-types are about to surge in popularity, which I like because I've been using Grimmsnarl a lot lately. It has quite a few nice sets; I'm sure a lot of you have seen the Dual Screens set getting some burn on more offensive builds, but personally I've been getting the most mileage out of Substitute + Bulk Up sets. RestTalk is also plenty viable, but I like the combination of Substitute and Sucker Punch in tandem, with Spirit Break in the mix to soften up some of its checks. The thing I like about Grimmsnarl is not only do its typing and bulk allow it to check quite a few scary Pokémon in this meta (namely Dragapult and Hydreigon), but it can actually do something after it's done its job defensively. That's either set screens or get boosts up, depending on what you're choosing to run. Sucker Punch is a great move in this meta right now, and if you get a couple boosts under your belt you can easily roll through offensive teams.

1577662386820.png

I think that people are expecting Jellicent to be more of a threat defensively than it really is. It's not incredible, but it can sometimes have a favorable matchup with Conkeldurr, Gyarados, Excadrill, and choice-locked Dracovish. Even with Darmanitan gone, it can still bully teams on the switch thanks to a combination of Water Absorb + Will-O-Wisp + Strength Sap, all of which serve to make it really really pesky. It's really a way more situational Pokémon than advertised, but I think it's still solid even if it lacks immediate power and isn't as bulky as people would like. Oh, and it can spinblock. All-around offers decent resistances and utility to any balance team.

1577662540855.png

Cinderace is just such a one-trick pony that I don't feel like it's worth using on any build besides hyper offense. The majority of the time, you can tell what it's going to do right away. Not only that, but this metagame is full of Fire resists that can abuse Cinderace's lack of hard-hitting coverage to pivot into it and sap your momentum. Court Change is good at times, especially against teams with Sticky Web or dual screens, but sometimes it just puts you in an awkward position when you've already set up hazards on the opponent. This is a decent Pokémon, but quite niche and easy to beat in my experience.

1577662698982.png
1577662705164.png
1577662714213.png

Rain offense is extremely dominant right now, and it's arguably the most effective offensive archetype. Damp Rock Pelipper sets up rain and heads straight out, leaving its posse of rain abusers to put the hurt on offense and balance builds alike. It's hard to combat Fishious Rend in the rain, making Dracovish one of the best weather abusers in the metagame right now. Though the Dynamax ban did raise the skill level needed to use this kind of team, it's still very tough. I should also note that Mantine is a pretty underrated abuser of rain thanks to Swift Swim + Choice Specs + STAB and 100% accurate Hurricane. Make sure that you have at least 2 Pokémon that don't mind getting wet!
 
Last edited:
I want to discuss mixed Dracovish right now. Seeing as Outrage locking you in is unpreferable with steels and fairies running around, I've been thinking Draco Meteor on Scarf Dracovish is actually quite potent.
0 SpA Dracovish Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon: 228-270 (70.1 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Now, you are able to deal a good chunk to Hydreigon, as well as being able to OHKO Dragapult.
You really just need Crunch and Psychic Fangs so why not put Draco Meteor in the last slot to hit dragons?
Neither Hydreigon nor Dragapult get OHKO'ed by Scarf Rend and Draco Meteor does more.
Hope I made a good case!
 
Robot7620 said:
I want to discuss mixed Dracovish right now. Seeing as Outrage locking you in is unpreferable with steels and fairies running around, I've been thinking Draco Meteor on Scarf Dracovish is actually quite potent.
0 SpA Dracovish Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon: 228-270 (70.1 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Now, you are able to deal a good chunk to Hydreigon, as well as being able to OHKO Dragapult.
You really just need Crunch and Psychic Fangs so why not put Draco Meteor in the last slot to hit dragons?
Neither Hydreigon nor Dragapult get OHKO'ed by Scarf Rend and Draco Meteor does more.
Hope I made a good case!
Click to expand...
The thing is, to do that damage you need a nature that reduces def or spedef, which is not ideal as one of Dracovish's advantage is its bulk. If you run adamant instead of lonely / naughty, you end up doing only 2% more with draco than with fishious rend. the coverage moves on dracovish are pretty much filler moves anw
 
Robot7620 said:
I want to discuss mixed Dracovish right now. Seeing as Outrage locking you in is unpreferable with steels and fairies running around, I've been thinking Draco Meteor on Scarf Dracovish is actually quite potent.
0 SpA Dracovish Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon: 228-270 (70.1 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Now, you are able to deal a good chunk to Hydreigon, as well as being able to OHKO Dragapult.
You really just need Crunch and Psychic Fangs so why not put Draco Meteor in the last slot to hit dragons?
Neither Hydreigon nor Dragapult get OHKO'ed by Scarf Rend and Draco Meteor does more.
Hope I made a good case!
Click to expand...

This is actually quite clever, the problem is that you don`t actually OHKO Drei, that you are a sitting duck afterwards with maybe the weakest DM in OU...Duggy Trap time
I still like it more than Outrage atleast...is Scarf Super Fang a thing?
 
Sorry for the random interruption, but I'm going to say this one and only one time. Please do not use this thread to complain about the Darmanitan ban. You are free to read the radar thread and the ban reasoning thread if you would like to learn more about it. Complaining here does nothing other than remind everyone why we nearly had to lock the radar thread. The council wanted to use the radar thread as a new way to be transparent and open with the community in order to hear how they felt about the topic in question. Sadly, the mess that was the first 10 pages transpired and was awful enough to force us to kill the GT vs. Darm discussion, which only existed because part of the community felt like creating an alternative ban option to preserve Zen Mode Darmanitan.

I'm not gonna go into details because you can read the ban thread for that, but it seriously does annoy everyone, mods and other users alike, when we are forced to watch users post low quality posts over and over and over again. The quality usually gets so low that it almost makes us want to say these threads are a privilege, and we obviously don't ever want to think about these threads like that. Everyone wants to have fun and partake in a potentially productive discussion to gain insight from others regarding the OU metagame. I always look forward to seeing what other users have to say, and I have learned a lot of helpful and new things from others just in the OU metagame discussion thread. Everyone's unique opinion coming together to positively influence others is the greatest benefit of having a discussion thread, and I want to preserve that kind of environment. Low quality posts are permissible, as everyone was inexperienced at some point, but it would do us a huge favor if everyone would put just a tiny bit of effort into making sure you've read the rules and other threads before posting. Whether it's making sure the pokemon you discuss actually has a certain move in it's move pool, or if it's understanding how an ability works (shoutouts LO Darmanitan), please make sure your argument makes sense before you make your post. If you end up wrong/incorrect about something, then that's totally fine. Someone else will point you in the right direction to help you learn from your mistakes and we'll continue the discussion.

I know this post sounds a bit negative, but I felt like it was a necessary evil to post after seeing the posts nitpicking the VR and the Darmanitan ban complaints. The VR is locked in order to give people time to think about the rankings before immediately posting without much thought. This usually results in low quality posts and we wanted to avoid those and hope people would start off the thread with posts of higher quality.

Anyways, I'll finish this post by leaving a few questions for the new post-darmanitan metagame:

1. What mons are the most impacted by Darmanitan leaving the tier in both positive and negative ways?
2. Bulky waters like Milotic and Jellicent were helpful with handling Darmanitan. How do you think they'll do now?
3. Are there any other mons that look problematic or very threatening to you? (Don't ask for a suspect)
4. What mons look to fill in the role that Darmanitan previously played as a wallbreaker?
5. Are there any new mons that can get some spotlight now that Darm is done outclassing them?

Sorry for the length of this post and the rather negative first half. If you have any questions, you are more than welcome to ask me or a fellow moderator. I hope you all have a nice day and enjoy the beginning of the new metagame without Darmanitan-Galar.
 
Jaajgko said:
The thing is, to do that damage you need a nature that reduces def or spedef, which is not ideal as one of Dracovish's advantage is its bulk. If you run adamant instead of lonely / naughty, you end up doing only 2% more with draco than with fishious rend. the coverage moves on dracovish are pretty much filler moves anw
Click to expand...
252 Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 177-208 (54.4 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0- SpA Dracovish Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon: 306-364 (94.1 - 112%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns after Stealth Rock
Possible damage amounts: (306, 310, 314, 320, 324, 324, 328, 332, 338, 342, 342, 346, 350, 356, 360, 364)
252 Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 205-242 (64.6 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0- SpA Dracovish Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 356-426 (112.3 - 134.3%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns after Stealth Rock
 
2. Bulky waters like Milotic and Jellicent were helpful with handling Darmanitan. How do you think they'll do now?

probably better tbh, checking dracovish is likely to rise in priority imo, and bulky waters doing that (especially jelli with water absorb and recovery) is going to be a nice bonus to an otherwise solid mon

I suspect the way the tier will develop will be Dracovish moving into Darm-G's now vacant spot of designated tier 'everything-breaker', and dealing with it, especially with rain, is going to become one of the main teambuilding constraints.
 
Last edited:
Robot7620 said:
252 Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 177-208 (54.4 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0- SpA Dracovish Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon: 306-364 (94.1 - 112%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns after Stealth Rock
Possible damage amounts: (306, 310, 314, 320, 324, 324, 328, 332, 338, 342, 342, 346, 350, 356, 360, 364)
252 Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 205-242 (64.6 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0- SpA Dracovish Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 356-426 (112.3 - 134.3%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns after Stealth Rock
Click to expand...

alright the way this was phrased was a little weird, but let me ask this:

What does going mixed get you that just running ice fang doesn't?

252 Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 180-214 (55.3 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 210-248 (66.2 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

it's a 2hko no matter what but choice locking into draco gets you rolled by duggy afterwards, and tbh, clicking ice fang seems way less risky than clicking draco:

-4 0- SpA Dracovish Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dugtrio: 42-51 (19.9 - 24.1%) -- 0.3% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dugtrio: 286-338 (135.5 - 160.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

on top of doing this:

252 Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 24 Def Ferrothorn: 64-76 (18.1 - 21.5%) -- possible 6HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0- SpA Dracovish Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Ferrothorn: 31-37 (8.8 - 10.5%) -- possibly the worst move ever

or this:

0- SpA Dracovish Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Seismitoad: 118-141 (33.5 - 40%) -- 88.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Ice Fang vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Seismitoad: 105-124 (29.8 - 35.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Not to mention stuff like clefable which laughs at draco
 
betteronpaper said:
alright the way this was phrased was a little weird, but let me ask this:

What does going mixed get you that just running ice fang doesn't?

252 Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 180-214 (55.3 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 210-248 (66.2 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

it's a 2hko no matter what but choice locking into draco gets you rolled by duggy afterwards, and tbh, clicking ice fang seems way less risky than clicking draco:

-4 0- SpA Dracovish Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dugtrio: 42-51 (19.9 - 24.1%) -- 0.3% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dugtrio: 286-338 (135.5 - 160.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

on top of doing this:

252 Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 24 Def Ferrothorn: 64-76 (18.1 - 21.5%) -- possible 6HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0- SpA Dracovish Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Ferrothorn: 31-37 (8.8 - 10.5%) -- possibly the worst move ever

or this:

0- SpA Dracovish Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Seismitoad: 118-141 (33.5 - 40%) -- 88.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Ice Fang vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Seismitoad: 105-124 (29.8 - 35.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Not to mention stuff like clefable which laughs at draco
Click to expand...
Ice Fang fails to OHKO Dragapult.
And also, you're not gonna stay in to d-meteor a friggin' Ferrothorn , and DMeteor deals a decent chunk to what seismitoad thought was a safe switchin.
 
Robot7620 said:
Ice Fang fails to OHKO Dragapult.
And also, you're not gonna stay in to d-meteor a friggin' Ferrothorn , and DMeteor deals a decent chunk to what seismitoad thought was a safe switchin.
Click to expand...

that's why i did the calc at +0, it's a raw draco on the ferrothorn on a switch which actually does less than ice fang. And ice fang chucks seis almost as hard as a draco, and leaves open the option to just keep ice fanging and potentially remove seis, which draco doesn't do effectively.

the barely 12.5% chance to ohko after rocks doesn't seem worth openning yourself up to getting sniped by duggy, them just switching out and setting up on your face, etc. Ice fang is 12.5% worse than draco vs dragapult but universally better vs pretty much everything else.

The only real upside that I can tell for running draco is trying to cheese dragapult on a 12.5% chance, in every other regard it's worse than ice fang.
 
Dracovish doesn't need a + speed nature, adamant is enough to outspeed dugtrio and cinderace, jolly only outspeeds barraskewda which is often going to be on rain teams anw, that's why I said the difference in damage is barely noticeable, bc I calc'd with adamant. A dragon move can be good against opposing Dracovishs tho
 
Jaajgko said:
Dracovish doesn't need a + speed nature, adamant is enough to outspeed dugtrio and cinderace, jolly only outspeeds barraskewda which is often going to be on rain teams anw, that's why I said the difference in damage is barely noticeable, bc I calc'd with adamant. A dragon move can be good against opposing Dracovishs tho
Click to expand...

just doing the calc with the least effective damage from draco which shows it's fundamentally the same damage wise other than the 12% cheese, and far more effective in literally any other situation.

That is, I was giving him the biggest benefit of the least damage from dracovish, and it still is equal to or worse than ice fang.
 
Weavile and Mamoswine, two of the best offensive Ice types in OU for four generations, were left with nothing to contribute with Galarian Darmanitan ruling the tier. Now that G Darm is gone, I could definitely see players trying out both. Unfortunately, Weavile lost both Knock Off and Pursuit, removing its trapping capabilities and leaving it no way to punish the bulky Fairy types in the tier that can generally switch into its attacks. Still, it has an amazing speed tier, and with fewer things likely to be running scarf just for the sake of revenge killing G Darm, it may be able to pose a late game sweeping threat. Mamoswine on the other hand retained Stealth Rock, which can make it useful even in matchups where its wallbreaking talents aren't needed. It has a niche option in Freeze Dry to give a nasty surprise to a physically defensive Seismitoad.
 
Empress Mobile said:
Weavile and Mamoswine, two of the best offensive Ice types in OU for four generations, were left with nothing to contribute with Galarian Darmanitan ruling the tier. Now that G Darm is gone, I could definitely see players trying out both. Unfortunately, Weavile lost both Knock Off and Pursuit, removing its trapping capabilities and leaving it no way to punish the bulky Fairy types in the tier that can generally switch into its attacks. Still, it has an amazing speed tier, and with fewer things likely to be running scarf just for the sake of revenge killing G Darm, it may be able to pose a late game sweeping threat. Mamoswine on the other hand retained Stealth Rock, which can make it useful even in matchups where its wallbreaking talents aren't needed. It has a niche option in Freeze Dry to give a nasty surprise to a physically defensive Seismitoad.
Click to expand...
I remember Freeze-Dry Mamo during the XY days as a means to get past Washtom, pretty nostalgic set.

Mamoswine @ Life Orb
Ability: Oblivious / Thick Fat
EVs: 232 Atk / 24 SpA / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Freeze-Dry
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock / Icicle Crash
- Ice Shard / Icicle Crash

SpA, LO, and Naughty lets it OHKO max HP Seismitoad after rocks, OHKO Ludicolo from full without rocks, and 2HKO Washtom after rocks. Oblivious is neat for its anti-Intimidate capabilities, although Thick Fat can be used to handle Fires better.

Admittedly, Freeze-Dry is kinda hard to fit on Mamo because it wants to have Rocks, Crash, and Shard at the same time, and EQ is mandatory because duh. I'd say Shard is the better out of the two to choose on a Dry set as the priority is so good on this mon to help vs Pult, Drei, Duggy, etc, but if you have a different Rocker, Crash can fit in that slot.
 
1. What mons are the most impacted by Darmanitan leaving the tier in both positive and negative ways? A bit of a hard question bc this mon has a good match-up against 3/4 of the tier. Defensive mons that feared clicking a recovery move because of the free switch it could give to Darm are especially gonna benefit from the ban, like Hippo or Mandibuzz whereas those that are the most negatively impacted are the niche defensive mons that were used just for the sake of checking Darm, which is really positive, since it will slow down the tier while getting rid of low niche mons.
2. Bulky waters like Milotic and Jellicent were helpful with handling Darmanitan. How do you think they'll do now? They will lose in viability but their ability to check Dracovish is still appreciated.
3. Are there any other mons that look problematic or very threatening to you? (Don't ask for a suspect) Dracovish is stupidly strong, especially on rain teams, and I really don't want of a meta where having a water immunity becomes as common as running a dragon immunity because of it and rain teams.
4. What mons look to fill in the role that Darmanitan previously played as a wallbreaker? The biggest one is going to be Dracovish but my personal favorites are Band Cinderace and Specs Aegislash.
5. Are there any new mons that can get some spotlight now that Darm is done outclassing them? it's a bit hard to say what Darmanitan outclasses because it's so special it's a bit hard to compare it with the rest, but now that the best scarfer in the tier is gone, people need to find new ones, My favorite one is definitely Hydreigon, but there's also Excadrill, Dracovish, Rotom and I think a bulky scarf toge can be nice as a check to Dragapult, with 136 HP it avoids the 2HKO from Specs Shadow Ball and can force it out with its speed and either healing back w/ morning sun, giving its scarf to the switch-in or try to flinch the opponent.
 
Dreadfury said:
Not quite. Appletun can potentially get smacked by Ice Fang or Outrage, while the other two lack access to reliable recovery and Rotom-W gets cleanly 2HKOed by banded or rain-boosted Fishious Rend on the switch regardless of defensive investment.

Dracovish isn't a Dracovish counter because it, too, lacks access to reliable recovery while also being prone-boned by Dracovish's Outrage on the switch.

As such, this showcases why people tend to have so many issues with Dracovish and its severe teambuilding constraints: there are a few things that can deal with Fishious Rend on paper, but in practice it has the tools to 2HKO all of them barring Gastrodon or it can simply predict and get some valuable chip. No Dracovish answers besides Gastrodon have access to reliable recovery, and as a result Dracovish wears them down long-term and then proceeds to click Fishious Rend to smash the rest of your team to pieces.
Click to expand...

I don't want to detract from your point because I do think Dracovish is busted and most of your point isn't wrong. But Dracovish isn't all that powerful by itself without Fishious Rend. Even with Strong Jaw, neutral hits from attacks other than Fishious Rend often leave some damage to be desired. A lot of defensively bulky pokemon can take those Neutral hits if they can take Fishious Rend. That was where I was going with that.

The fact is very few Pokemon can switch into Fishious Rend. Dracovish can and does rather easily. And then it can kill its twin if it has a dragon coverage move. The dynamics are a bit more complicated then that. But I'll get into it later in my comment in my next reply section.

My other examples were admittedly somewhat bad because Dex-it leaves surprisingly few pokemon that have that double resistance, which probably makes Dracovish more of an issue. At least with Dracozolt you can find ground types, especially now that G-Darm isn't there to destroy all of them in nearly every game. You are correct that Appleton is vulnerable to dragon and ice coverage moves. Ludicolo isn't really OU and its primary function as Rain Setter from past uses would be less than ideal in that situation.

Zentrius said:
in what world do appletun, rotom-w or ludicolo counter dracovish lol. rotom-w and ludicolo (yes, a 4-times resist) get roasted by band fishous rend and appletun and dracovish cant switch in at all for obvious reasons, and even then with a layer of spikes and hazard, they all get destroyed by banded rends

just because rends is stupidly powerful doesnt mean that you cannot click any other move. thats the point of actually running 3 other moves.
Click to expand...

No one ever talked about how a Dracovish tore apart their team with Crunch, Psychic Fangs, Ice Fang or what have you. Sure, those moves help but they really are there to set up the Fishious Rend. Most Dracovish sets I see are Choice Band or Choice Scarf. So in those sets, either they use Fishious Rend or they don't. If they are locked into it, any pokemon with a 4x resist is a potential counter, except maybe in rain. Of course Life Orb gets around this. But most people seem to like using Band because water nukes and maximized chip, even though the power of Life Orb isn't that much less.

Your example of Fishious Rend and spikes and more hazards requires two things. First, you have to win the hazard war by a substantial amount. Easier said than done. Second, you have to be using a Choice Band set, which means you are locked into moves and don't have the speed buff from Choice Scarf to make up for it. You can switch Dracovish into opposing Fishious Rend. You need a move like Outrage or Dragon Rush to KO opposing Dracovish. Outrage has huge drawbacks and Dragon Rush has fairly bad accuracy. So sure, you can try to predict with them to screw a potential incoming Dracovish in theory. In practice, this is riskier than it is predicting with most other moves especially if you are using Outrage. Like with all the fairy types running around, are you really just gonna rambo off Outrage in case that opposing Dracovish comes in? Because that's what you have to do with a Choice Band set to ensure you aren't countered.

None of the other moves mentioned are 1HKOs or close to it. So any faster build that switches into a slower Dracovish will outspeed and get the KO after the switch in. That's a counter! This could be Choice Scarf over Choice Band or even Jolly over Adamant like some people on here were suggesting earlier. Furthermore, only the Choice Band set reliably does over half to opposing Dracovish with Psychic Fangs or Crunch, and even that doesn't get to 60% damage. But that set is also significantly more vulnerable to being countered due to choice lock and no speed buff.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top