Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Usage Stats in post #581]

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TPP's Questions
1. Probably grass types in general that were slower than Darm-G like Rotom-Mow and Eldegoss (a neat bulky spinner that I've seen a lot in room tours). The 50/50s Darm-G brought put too much pressure on fatter teams so, there'll be a lot more freedom with moves, mons like Toxapex & Seismitoad won't be forced to run protect/baneful bunker. Dracovish will probably take it's place next as top threat. Corviknight got a lot better and so did Dragapult.

2. Milotic and Jellicent will always have a place in the tier. Jellicent is good at taking physical and special hits so, it'll be useful on stall. Jellicent will definitely be used still to take on Dracovish.

3. Dracovish and Dragapult. A lot of talk has been made about Dracovish so, I don't think any of my words are needed. It just puts a lot of pressure on team building.
A lot of people will probably not agree with me when I say that Dragapult is a bit too scary to face. The number one thing that comes off as problematic with Dragapult is the fact that it can run so many sets and be unpredictable. If it goes for substitute, you still won't know specifically what set is since both DD & Wisp+Hex run sub. The speed tier is also highly problematic, outspeeding the entire unboosted tier and being able to switch up natures boost its decent attack or special attack stat (depending on the set) and still outspeed the tier. Which is honestly what makes specs so problematic to deal with: the speed + power + the great ghost STAB that not many teams will have a resist for.
It has great momentum in U-Turn. Great priority in sucker punch. And great coverage options in Fire Blast, Thunderbolt, Wisp, and Disable.
It has ways to take on any mon in the tier and can often lure in threats to knock out them out for team mates.
Not only does it hit hard and is fast but, it's surprisingly bulky. It's immune to Normal and Fighting. Resists Bug, Fire, Water, Grass, Electric and Poison. That's a lot of resistances. It's definitely tough to deal with and has been a top tier threat since the beginning of Dmax era.

4. Dracovish.

5. I'm not sure, maybe Mamoswine. Mamoswine is a very good ice type that can break common cores like Clefable + Corviknight or Toxapex + Corviknight.
 
1. What mons are the most impacted by Darmanitan leaving the tier in both positive and negative ways?
Positive: pretty much any other Scarfer, especially the slower ones like Togekiss, Dracovish, etc.
Negative: not really sure, maybe Milotic, which I'll explain below.

2. Bulky waters like Milotic and Jellicent were helpful with handling Darmanitan. How do you think they'll do now?
Jellicent will still be pretty good for its ability to check Dracovish while also acting as a spinblocker. Milotic, on the other hand, just doesn't really cut it anymore. No Water Absorb/Storm Drain to reliably check Dracovish is pretty bad. Banded is a guaranteed 2HKO w/ Rend unless Milo's running Flame Orb Marvel Scale, and even then it has a chance to 2HKO after rocks + burn so any bit of prior chip, and you can kiss your Milo goodbye. I'd rather run Vaporeon over Milotic atm.

3. Are there any other mons that look problematic or very threatening to you? (Don't ask for a suspect)
Dracovish for obvious reasons. Sub Bulk Up Corviknight is also a top 3 mon imo and is super annoying to deal with and extremely easy to use. If you're not running Specs Fire Blast Dragapult or even Infiltrator Chandelure, you're as good as done.

4. What mons look to fill in the role that Darmanitan previously played as a wallbreaker?
I don't really know. Darmanitan had a lot of unique attributes that let it set itself apart by a wide margin from other breakers. I kinda wanna look towards fast and strong breakers w/ U-turn access, like Dragapult and Hydreigon.

5. Are there any new mons that can get some spotlight now that Darm is done outclassing them?
Pretty much the same thing I said in question 1: other Scarfers that were outclassed by Darm-G before. Togekiss sounds hella annoying w/ Scarf Air Slash, for example, and other slower Scarfers like Dracovish, the Rotoms, and Indeedee-Male or Indeedee-Female w/ Healing Wish could see some more prominence.
 
Dracovish doesn't need a + speed nature, adamant is enough to outspeed dugtrio and cinderace, jolly only outspeeds barraskewda which is often going to be on rain teams anw, that's why I said the difference in damage is barely noticeable, bc I calc'd with adamant. A dragon move can be good against opposing Dracovishs tho
It outspeeds neutral Dragapult which is most Dragapult
 
Sub Bulk Up Corviknight is also a top 3 mon imo and is super annoying to deal with and extremely easy to use. If you're not running Specs Fire Blast Dragapult or even Infiltrator Chandelure, you're as good as done.
I definitely agree with this. Corviknight is even able to pp stall Fire Blast from Clefable Life Orb and the mons which are able to threat it effectively are uncommon or not as viable as other pokemons in the tier. It is the most restricting mon currently and it is for me far harder to answer than dracovish. Dracovish forces you to play strong water resists but once these are in your team, you know you are relatively safe against it. Corviknight in the other hand is not easy to stop. It handles a hit from Dragapult Specs which means that even if you catch it on the turn it roost, it's basically a trade (Sub Disable is better imo but it still has a hard time to switch into corviknight). Only few other mons are able to beat it with consistency such as Rotom-Heat, Toxtricticty, Cinderace, Dracozolt and maybe Toxapex but I'm not even sure who wins the dual. These mons are easy to weaken or are not very reliable in this metagame. Not only use these mons weaken sometimes your team but you have to be very conservative about these general offensive mons to don't be swept by corviknight in the late game which is pretty hard considering these mons don't have a good longevity.

In my opinion, Corviknight is an issue to deal with, more than any other pokemon in this tier right now in my opinion. If we have to look at something else to stabilize the metagame, I think it would be a good idea to at least have in mind the impact of corviknight in the teambuilding.
 
After hearing about the Darm ban, I would like to share my thoughts.

The winners:
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Mostly ice weak mons benefit from the ban. Mons Dragapult, Hydra, Kommo-o, NP Togekiss, and Sigilyph lost their best check giving them more air to breathe. Mandibuzz and Hippo will be more prominent walls with Darm not being there to break them. Rotom-Mow has more room to be used over Heat and Wash as now it isn’t required to use Heat or Wash now. Obstagoon has less competition as a wallbreaker now, its a nice pivot and wallbreaker similar to Darm but not a nuclear bomb like it.

The biggest winners:
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The two premier offensive ice types since DPPT no longer stand behind Darmanitan’s shadow and are ready to shine once again. They don’t have U-Turn but Mamo is a great rocker and electric immunity on offensive teams, and Weavile gets priority Ice Shard for Dragapult and finishing off a weakened Kommo-o. The most interesting pick out of the two imo is Weavile. It definitely getting a boost in viability once Darm leaves the ladder. With Clefable opting for a more offensive spread these days and stuff like Aegi, and Mandibuzz being a commonplace in the meta, I think it will fit right back in.

The losers:
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Non of these are heavily affected by the ban but most of them took at least the slightest hit down. Heat and Wash were the best Darm answer we had, it lost a bit of viability but still serves as a fantastic Ferro/Pex core breaker Wash is still almost the same either way. Conk was one of the best Darm checks in the tier being able to revenge it easily with Mach Punch. Being a defogger that beats the best rockers while also having more of an offensive presence that Corviknight is a fine feat. Cinderace was another check to Darm that was hit by the ban but barely. Vaporeon got hit pretty hard but is a nice Dracovish blockade and Wish passer. Durant was another good check to Darm take a hit in viability more because of Corv and Aegislash than Darm.

The biggest loser:
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It didn’t really have a niche for a bulky water outside of Darm. Since it is gone I think it will be impacted the most from it negatively. It has no niche to differentiate and let it stand out to Pex the ultimate wall that offers TSpikes, Toad with rocks and an electric immunity, Jellicent’s spinblocking and stallbreaking capabilities, Wash’s ability to pivot with Volt Switch and annoy teams with Wisp and Trick, Pelipper defining an entire archetype, Vaporeon having Wish, and Pyukumuku/Quasire as Unaware walls. The only notable thing Milotic has is Dragon Tail but its not enough to give it a noticeable niche imo.
 

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I'd like to say Jellicent also took a bit of a dive with this ban. Part of his appeal was role compression as reasonable answer to both Darm and Vish. Being able to withstand Icicle Crashes and Flare Blitzes and retaliating in return with a sap or burn was very nice, though he does struggle dealing with Vish quite a bit thanks to being weak to Strong Jaw boosted Crunch
 
I remember Freeze-Dry Mamo during the XY days as a means to get past Washtom, pretty nostalgic set.

Mamoswine @ Life Orb
Ability: Oblivious / Thick Fat
EVs: 232 Atk / 24 SpA / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Freeze-Dry
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock / Icicle Crash
- Ice Shard / Icicle Crash

SpA, LO, and Naughty lets it OHKO max HP Seismitoad after rocks, OHKO Ludicolo from full without rocks, and 2HKO Washtom after rocks. Oblivious is neat for its anti-Intimidate capabilities, although Thick Fat can be used to handle Fires better.

Admittedly, Freeze-Dry is kinda hard to fit on Mamo because it wants to have Rocks, Crash, and Shard at the same time, and EQ is mandatory because duh. I'd say Shard is the better out of the two to choose on a Dry set as the priority is so good on this mon to help vs Pult, Drei, Duggy, etc, but if you have a different Rocker, Crash can fit in that slot.
Given that Rotom-H is currently at least as viable than Rotom-W, even with the Darmanitan ban, I would much rather be running Stone Edge than Freeze Dry on Mamoswine personally.
 
If we take a look at the latest usage stats, you can tell that a Timid nature is run ~12% more than Modest on all Dragapult. Looking at the meta, a Timid nature is most definitely better because it'll always outspeed Choice Band Dracovish at -1 and Choice Scarf Dracovish.
Definitely good points, although neutral Dragapult is still a good pick in specific situations. Rather than write some lengthy paragraph that honestly no one will care enough to read, I'm just going to list some benefits of each.

Benefits of Speed-Boosting Nature
  • Outspeeds scarf Dracovish
  • Outspeeds Weavile
  • Better matchup vs webs
  • Outspeeds opposing Dragapult that are neutral speed
  • Outspeeds Barraskewda outside of rain
  • Outspeeds neutral speed +1 base 80s (Gyarados, Togekiss, Kommo-o, Excadrill)

Benefits of Neutral-Speed Nature
  • Still outspeeds entire unboosted meta aside from opposing Dragapult
  • Guaranteed 2HKO on Clefable with specs Shadow Ball
  • Guaranteed 2HKO on Mandibuzz with specs Thunderbolt
  • Guaranteed 2HKO on specially defensive Toxapex with specs Thunderbolt
  • Roll to OHKO physically defensive Seismitoad with specs Draco Meteor
  • Guaranteed OHKO on Obstagoon with specs Draco Meteor
  • Significant damage increase for Dragon Dance variants
  • Less prediction-reliant; Shadow Ball pressures neutral switch-ins better
The difference in damage from Timid vs Modest on Specs Dragapult is minimal so unless the rolls are really important for the team it's better to run Timid. Physical Dragapult, which is only ever SubDD, can afford to run Adamant. Sub Disable runs Timid anyway.
 
what are people thinking of vileplume? it has some fun stall strategies but I'm not sure how viable it really is, but the darm ban is certainly going to help it
 
What are Conkeldurrs (best) sets/ his niche in the current meta? Couldn’t find an analysis and since I did not ladder yet I have no idea (tho I’m glad it’s on the OU VR finally).
And I’m to lazy to check all 14 pages if someone already asked something like this sorry.
(One last question: What dark STABS does Weavile run since pursuit is no longer available? What is his/hers/its niche?)
Have a nice day guys :D
 
What are Conkeldurrs (best) sets/ his niche in the current meta? Couldn’t find an analysis and since I did not ladder yet I have no idea (tho I’m glad it’s on the OU VR finally).
And I’m to lazy to check all 14 pages if someone already asked something like this sorry.
(One last question: What dark STABS does Weavile run since pursuit is no longer available? What is his/hers/its niche?)
Have a nice day guys :D
Here is the analysis of conk. I have used the set myself including others and I feel this is the best rn. You can try out facade as 'coverage' but that might leave you walled by ghosts.

https://www.smogon.com/dex/ss/pokemon/conkeldurr/

Weavile runs throat chop like bisharp. There might be some use in foul play like there was last Gen, but I haven't tried it out yet to really make a case for it.
 
> the face when you get suspected some day
Dracovish @ Choice Band
Ability: Strong Jaw
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fishious Rend
- Psychic Fangs
- Crunch
- Low Kick >>> Outrage

I hate giving Scarf Ditto the option to revenge kill you with Outrage. Instead, I propose the power of Low Kick!
252+ Atk Choice Band Dracovish Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: (47.7 - 56.2%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Dracovish Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: (94.1 - 110.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Dracovish Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dracovish: (52 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Dracovish Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Imposter-Wish (55.6 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
what are people thinking of vileplume? it has some fun stall strategies but I'm not sure how viable it really is, but the darm ban is certainly going to help it
Vileplume has an excellent support movepool with all kinds of tricks up its sleeve including the rare Sleep Powder along with Strength Sap, Leech Seed and Toxic. Its Special Attack is also surprisingly decent. Unfortunately, it's just too easily overwhelmed by so much of the tier due to its low Speed and only decent bulk. If you can get a free switch on something like Conkeldurr or Scarf Dracovish, then you can stall those two out, but it fails to switch into much. I'm not able to run calcs right now, but I imagine that while it would soft check all of the Fairy attackers, it couldn't switch in, and it'd be too weak and slow to be of any use after going 1v1 with them. I'd say it has a ton of the right tools, but just doesn't match up well against the metagame.
 
Here is the analysis of conk. I have used the set myself including others and I feel this is the best rn. You can try out facade as 'coverage' but that might leave you walled by ghosts.

https://www.smogon.com/dex/ss/pokemon/conkeldurr/

Weavile runs throat chop like bisharp. There might be some use in foul play like there was last Gen, but I haven't tried it out yet to really make a case for it.
Facade is a great option to hit fairies and non-resists for excellent damage, which in turn eases prediction. For example, if Seismitoad is in front of you and a switch to Clefable/Toxapex are possible options, you can opt for Facade to cover both them staying in and them switching:

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 229-270 (55.3 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 141-167 (46.3 - 54.9%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 232-274 (58.8 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Conkeldurr can be pretty prediction-reliant so having a middle-ground option like this can be helpful (it also deals more damage than Drain Punch on non-resists). It 2HKO's defensive Clefable and smashes offensive variants (plus other fairies):

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Clefable: 344-405 (87.3 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Hatterene: 204-241 (64.1 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Togekiss: 276-325 (88.7 - 104.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Most of the time you can kill with Mach Punch next turn (or just outspeed in Hatterene's case). Jellicent and Corsola are problems, but there are several options to help cover those due to their Ghost/Sp.Def weaknesses.
 
Mach Punch / Drain Punch / Earthquake / Facade Guts Conk is what I've been running, Facade imo is essential for the strong neutral damage against non-Ghost Fighting resists and EQ hits most Ghosts pretty hard now that Corsola has dropped in usage. TPunch imo doesn't seem too great in the post-Dynamax meta outside of helping pressure Corviknight, and even then you're playing 50/50 games with Roost and choosing to Drain vs Thunder Punch.

I haven't used Weavile yet but it would definitely run Ice Shard / Icicle Crash / Throat Chop / Low Kick or Swords Dance.
 
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I hate giving Scarf Ditto the option to revenge kill you with Outrage. Instead, I propose the power of Low Kick!
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 158-186 (44.8 - 52.8%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 291-342 (89.5 - 105.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 291-342 (89.5 - 105.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dracovish: 133-156 (41.4 - 48.5%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

impostered vish is 2hko'd by rend too.

Once you set rocks, low kick is not that good and low kick it's still not that much better without rocks anyway.

I'd strongly suggest running rest as a 4th move since it completely destroys chip damaging with ferrothorn/baneful bunker/hazards.
 
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 158-186 (44.8 - 52.8%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 291-342 (89.5 - 105.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 291-342 (89.5 - 105.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dracovish: 133-156 (41.4 - 48.5%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

impostered vish is 2hko'd by rend too.

Once you set rocks, low kick is not that good and low kick it's still not that much better without rocks anyway.

I'd strongly suggest running rest as a 4th move since it completely destroys chip damaging with ferrothorn/baneful bunker/hazards.
Rest is free entry for Dragapult, Clefable, Hatterene, Sylveon, Hydreigon, Gengar, etc. It seems unlikely Vish will wake up in time to be useful, more likely it'd give too many free turns to your opponent to ever be useful.
 

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Mach Punch / Drain Punch / Earthquake / Facade Guts Conk is what I've been running, Facade imo is essential for the strong neutral damage against non-Ghost Fighting resists and EQ hits most Ghosts pretty hard now that Corsola has dropped in usage. TPunch imo doesn't seem too great in the post-Dynamax meta outside of helping pressure Corviknight, and even then you're playing 50/50 games with Roost and choosing to Drain vs Thunder Punch.

I haven't used Weavile yet but it would definitely run Ice Shard / Icicle Crash Ice Punch or Icicle Spear / Throat Chop / Low Kick or Swords Dance. Yes, this thing no longer gets Icicle Crash apparently, which I imagine will be a huge hit to its viability, the ability to flinch stuff is part of what made it so good in gen 6.
Showdown still says Weavile gets Icicle Crash in Gen 8 formats. Dunno where you got the idea it didn't, but unless Showdown is bugged you've been misinformed.
 
Facade is a great option to hit fairies and non-resists for excellent damage, which in turn eases prediction. For example, if Seismitoad is in front of you and a switch to Clefable/Toxapex are possible options, you can opt for Facade to cover both them staying in and them switching:

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 229-270 (55.3 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 141-167 (46.3 - 54.9%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 232-274 (58.8 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Conkeldurr can be pretty prediction-reliant so having a middle-ground option like this can be helpful (it also deals more damage than Drain Punch on non-resists). It 2HKO's defensive Clefable and smashes offensive variants (plus other fairies):

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Clefable: 344-405 (87.3 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Hatterene: 204-241 (64.1 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Togekiss: 276-325 (88.7 - 104.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Most of the time you can kill with Mach Punch next turn (or just outspeed in Hatterene's case). Jellicent and Corsola are problems, but there are several options to help cover those due to their Ghost/Sp.Def weaknesses.
Whats the standard spread for any Conkle? Is there any speed investment to outspeed anything? Not that he normally does.
 
Whats the standard spread for any Conkle? Is there any speed investment to outspeed anything? Not that he normally does.
If you're going to run speed on Conk, run 124 to creep 0 Speed Clefable. You could run a bit more for Corviknight but I personally don't see much of a point when it will pretty much always beat you anyway
 
Whats the standard spread for any Conkle? Is there any speed investment to outspeed anything? Not that he normally does.
A couple of options:

- 124 EVs to hit 157 Speed, which outspeeds defensive Clefable, Sylveon and 0 speed Aegislash by one point
- 184 EVs to hit 172 Speed, which outspeeds min speed Corviknight by two points and those who outspeed that by one point (171 speed is common for LO Clefable). You'll also outspeed min speed Pelipper and Vaporeon/Umbreon/Flareon
- 236 EVs to hit 185 Speed, which outspeeds min speed Seismitoad

It depends on how offensively you want to play him and how the rest of your team looks (for example if defensive Clefable gives the rest of your team a headache then it can definitely be worth it to outspeed that).
 
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