Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Usage Stats in post #581]

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I would like to question the placement of Sigilyph in B-. I have only ever encountered it once, and although I'm not high ladder (ranging around 1500 ish,) I have played a fair amount of ladder games. (Will be interesting to see the usage statistics when they come around tho.)


On top of it's middling use (0.5%) , the set finchinator gave (likely the only viable set) has a lot of trouble with dark types, namely grimsnarl and obstagoon, and can be shut down by taunt users, such as the aforementioned grimsnarl, and the birds. It is also weak to the omnipresent darmanitan, making it weak to some of if not the best Pokémon in the tier right now, making it hard to set-up safely and sweep for that matter. And the fact that it is completely outclassed by clefable as a CP set up mon.

I just don't see how it is justified as B-, could somebody please explain it's placement? Aside from 'it seeing some use.'
 

TPP

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I would like to question the placement of Sigilyph in B-. I have only ever encountered it once, and although I'm not high ladder (ranging around 1500 ish,) I have played a fair amount of ladder games. (Will be interesting to see the usage statistics when they come around tho.)


On top of it's middling use (0.5%) , the set finchinator gave (likely the only viable set) has a lot of trouble with dark types, namely grimsnarl and obstagoon, and can be shut down by taunt users, such as the aforementioned grimsnarl, and the birds. It is also weak to the omnipresent darmanitan, making it weak to some of if not the best Pokémon in the tier right now, making it hard to set-up safely and sweep for that matter. And the fact that it is completely outclassed by clefable as a CP set up mon.

I just don't see how it is justified as B-, could somebody please explain it's placement? Aside from 'it seeing some use.'
I may explain some of the rankings at a later time, but I'll go ahead and answer your question about Sigilyph. Another set it usually runs is something similar to Clefable, with Life Orb + Magic Guard. The set is as follows:

Sigilyph @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Heat Wave
- Calm Mind / Air Slash
- Roost

Magic Guard means you take no damage from hazards nor status, and this allows you to switch in against weaker or passive mons like Seismitoad and Toxapex. Sigilyph has a decent speed tier, sitting at base 97 speed, which lets it outspeed Rotom-Heat, who is currently fairly common at this point in time. Psychic + Fire coverage is solid and prevents Corviknight and Rotom-Heat from safely switching in. Calm Mind is a nice option to boost your damage output to get past specially defensive mons like Clefable, Sylveon and non Clear Smog Gastrodon. Air Slash grants you extra coverage to avoid being walled by something like Hydreigon. However, Mandibuzz and Tyranitar will be the most likely mons that you won't be able to bypass. So when attempting to use it, plan accordingly to get past those 2.

Overall it's like a fast Life Orb Clefable with different coverage + better speed + better recovery and has the option to set up. Being able to outspeed Rotom-Heat is a big enough advantage to warrant me mentioning it again, as it is something that Clefable constantly lets in and is something that can immediately pressure you.

I hope this satisfies your question. Let me know if there's anything else you'd like for me to explain.
 

Finchinator

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Next person to post in here about the viability rankings gets infracted. Already a handful of deleted posts. Not only is it rude for your first instinct to be nitpicking the thread, but more importantly we also made it very clear that thread would be locked and this thread is NOT the appropriate place to discuss the VR specifically in the meantime.
 
1. Currently I believe toxapex is the strongest tanky mon we have and just does too much to be balanced. Having access to haze to stop set-ups as well as consistent healing in the form of recover, on top of having regenerator as an ability. Is too much given his solid health and strong defenses. Having both scald and toxic on top of all that is so much utility on the tank of your team. In terms of other mons with high success...Tyranitar has, and always will be a strong mon, and I’ve had unbelievable success with scarf draco meteor hydreigon.

2. I feel like Darmanitan, Corsola, and Dracovish are all heavily Overrated. I find that Darmanitan and dracovish can easily be beaten through a prediction. Cause it’s not like we see anything other than Choice on dracovish and Choice gorilla tactics on Darmanitan. Corsola, I feel just gets outclassed by other tanky mons. Corsolas abilitys aren’t amazing and it has to use eviolite to be competitively viable. Toxapex has better ability’s through regenerator and can use black sludge for extra bulk. Ferrothorn has contact damage with iron barbs and more options for utility with access to spikes, knock off, Thunder wave and toxic, as well as not being restricted to eviolite and just generally having better bulk.

3. This isn’t a play style, but I feel that hazards (mainly stealth rock) got a lot weaker with gen 8. With so many strong hazard removers in forms of Corviknight, excadrill, Mandibuzz and Cinderace. And the addition of heavy duty boots to nullify hazards. I feel hazards are very easily dealt with in this gen, and usually don’t end up doing much to determine the outcome of the match
 
With Gdarm finally out of the picture , can we finally stop acting like blindfolded peoples about Duggy (which is definitely more of an hindrance in teambuilding than Gdarm was ) ?

Stall haters were reluctant about banning gdarm somehow , but Duggy IS the reason stall is so strong right now , when only rest np rotom-h /np e-ball tbolt Gengar break through stall you know something isn't right ....
 
Wasn't expecting the quickban, but now that it's here, we're going to need to look into alternative fast U-Turn mons. Hydreigon or Dragapult are cool, but have super weak U-Turns. What do people think of Scarf Braviary?


Braviary @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- U-turn
- Close Combat
- Facade/Retaliate/Filler


Now, this is hardly going to take GDarm's place... but we're somewhat strapped for fast offensive pivots at the moment, especially if you're not a fan of Cinderace.
 
With Gdarm finally out of the picture , can we finally stop acting like blindfolded peoples about Duggy (which is definitely more of an hindrance in teambuilding than Gdarm was ) ?

Stall haters were reluctant about banning gdarm somehow , but Duggy IS the reason stall is so strong right now , when only rest np rotom-h /np e-ball tbolt Gengar break through stall you know something isn't right ....
I'd ban every trapping mon from every gen if it were up to me, and I'm also an avid stall player. We have agreed that trapping is uncompetitive because it restricts a core mechanic of the game in the form of prohibiting switches, I wonder if we even need to unban trap arena/shadow tag (and magnet pull, but that's my personal crusade) at the beginning of each gen to begin with.
 

Yung Dramps

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This hunk of fuck is dead. With Darm outta the way there is officially 0 reason to run it over Pex. See ya later, you shitty byproduct of a broken mon


Jellicent on the other hand? Don't sleep on him, he's still a goat vs Dracovish and the rising Dugtrio. If u stop using him because Darm is dead I'm gonna slap your colon


This guy's gonna be swaggin with Darmanitan outta the way. Scarf Darmanitan's death is also the death of the sweeper sets' best revenge killing option, not much in general aside from clef can really handle it that well after a DDance or Clangorous Soul boost.


ADAMANT LIFE ORB IS BACK. Even before the Darm ban it got a ranking for unique traits like Ground STAB and Ice Shard. Now with the big competition out of the way, it's time for Mamo to take center stage in the new meta as the new king of the Ice types.


Without the constant fear of Darm, Rotom-Mow can do its duty of being a Rotom that doesn't lose to Seismitoad much more safely. tbh you can just put "everything weak to Ice STAB" down as mons that get better


quickban arena trap
 
Now that G-Darm is finally banned, I feel like many of the pokemon sets designed specifically to outspeed its Choice Scarf set are no longer restricted to do that. I don't know about anyone else, but whenever I would design a team, I always had to keep in mind which pokemon could outspeed and KO that Scarf set. Despite having no real counters, I don't think the Choice Band set would have been as bad if it weren't for the threat of Choice Scarf on 95 base speed. And you basically can't tell the difference until one of your bulky pokemon (if you have one) takes a hit. By then, it is likely either chunked hard or fainted. But I digress.

My point in bringing this up isn't to talk about the decision that was already made. It is to talk about what happens now. And I'm talking about a slower meta and less reliance on Choice Scarf builds. Not that they won't be used or useful. Just that they will be less mandatory in order for certain pokemon to function in this meta. Every single offensive lead choice had to contend with the possibility of Choice Scarf G-Darmanitan. Am I correct in assuming that the only other pokemon (not counting weather sweepers or Dugtrio) in the tier that is really pressuring these sort of builds for adding extra speed is Dragapult?
 
G-Darm was dumb, glad it's gone. It wasn't super hard to check, but it relied entirely on reads and scouting the choice item. That usually involved taking 30-40% on a scarf mon to check if darm was also scarfed or giving up a mon since nothing could safely switch in without taking at least 55-70%.

Arena trap is stupid, please just quick-ban it.

Dracovish is also still a problem. While not insane because of the near omnipresence of a water absorb mon on every team, that alone shows how overcentralizing he is as a whole. I really think he limits team building since you HAVE to have something to deal with him or loss every time a vish switches in safely. I am hoping this is the next suspect after a quick-ban on arena trap.

Corviknight is super strong still. It has the safest defog in the game and just checks so much of the meta. I am hoping in a post-darm and hopefully post arena trap meta we see some cool things rise up to beat it, because it's clearly the best pokemon in the tier, no contest. It has two really good sets in bulk up and defog; has access to a good enough move pool, can easily tilt momentum into the corv user's favor with a slow u-turn; and can be a win-con against a lot of teams single-handedly if there is no Rotom-H or Toxricity, which Corv's teammates can cover pretty easily.
 

Jellicent on the other hand? Don't sleep on him, he's still a goat vs Dracovish and the rising Dugtrio. If u stop using him because Darm is dead I'm gonna slap your colon
i still consider jellicent to be one of the weakest dracofish counters since crunch hits for a fuckton, I'd say only vaporeon and seismitoad are realistically worth running.
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
i still consider jellicent to be one of the weakest dracofish counters since crunch hits for a fuckton, I'd say only vaporeon and seismitoad are realistically worth running.
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 202-238 (50 - 58.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Then you just Strength Sap/Will-O stall it. Also Lefties/Colbur Berry exist
 
Stop talking about it, there was extensive discussion about this argument in the topic "On the radar Vol. 1" and the council even stated in the other linked topic that it's against the tiering principles the tier is build upon.



I'd ban every trapping mon from every gen if it were up to me, and I'm also an avid stall player. We have agreed that trapping is uncompetitive because it restricts a core mechanic of the game in the form of prohibiting switches, I wonder if we even need to unban trap arena/shadow tag (and magnet pull, but that's my personal crusade) at the beginning of each gen to begin with.
After doing 70~100 games before the holidays around 1750~1800 , with the recent "downfall" of Snorlax and the rising of Gastro , pex eject made scarf Duggy way too dumb in stall and is by far more threatening than Gdarm was (also a lot more represented) , lately when reading Gdarm killed Offense forcing to run fat conk/stall I'm like what ? Duggy killed Offense not Garm , it was only the tree hiding the forest , and I mean the whole fking Amazonie
 
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252+ Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 202-238 (50 - 58.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Then you just Strength Sap/Will-O stall it. Also Lefties/Colbur Berry exist
You've just proven that Jellicent (without Colbur Berry) is not a reliable switch-in since even Scarf Dracovish can 2HKO it. Leftovers don't matter if hazards are up.
Dunno in which planet Jellicent isn't running speed in the first place (at least 80) , adding to that fact unless half your mon are running prot (aka stall) jelli will and never has been a decent dracovish check , also Dracovish + hat is literally a thing right now forcing recover over sap , just run Seismi or vap if you wanna deal with vish .
 
Thank you for banning Darm!

252+ Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 202-238 (50 - 58.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Then you just Strength Sap/Will-O stall it. Also Lefties/Colbur Berry exist
Sure, you can survive once with Colbur or with low rolls with lefties and no hazards, but is running that tenuous a check really worth it? Your definitely not keeping it in check the whole game if you can’t even guarantee surviving once, especially with hazards up

Even Vaporeon and Seismitoad struggle to take its coverage, though admittedly as someone laddering with Vap I’ve only seen outrage used very rarely:


252 Atk Choice Band Dracovish Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 225-265 (48.4 - 57.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Dracovish Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 198-234 (47.8 - 56.5%) -- 85.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Of course, Outrage is a much higher risk move, but when the two mons designed to counter it aren’t even guaranteed to survive switching in on it, there’s a problem, especially as going into a fairy means Vape doesn’t get any chance to recover, while Seismitoad can’t recover anyway.

This fish puts such a huge strain on team building as well, since such a small number of moms actually can do something about it, though Duggy is worse, once you reach high 1700s/low 1800s stall and that mon are everywhere, it’s ridiculously uncompetitive as there’s very little counterplay if your team isn’t built specifically to counter it
 
With all that talk ealier about Dracovish, I just want to mention that Water Absorb and like abilities (Dry Skin and Storm Drain) aren't the only ways to counter it. Outside of that ridiculous move, the actual attack power of Vish is quite tame. Any pokemon with a double resistance can counter the doubling ability of Fishious Rend. So pokemon like Rotom-W, Appletun, and maybe even Ludicolo (which I have never even seen in OU this gen) could theoretically switch in it without a water cancelling ability.

Stupidly, this can make Dracovish one of the best counters to itself. I had good success with a Life orb set because it let me switch to Psychic Fangs on Toxapex, Crunch on Jellicent, and a Dragon move on opposing Dracovish that were often locked into Fishious Rend. But I never used Outrage. I always used Dragon Rush because the low accuracy was better than being locked in against a meta with a lot of Fairies.

I think this aspect of Dracovish being able to switch into Fishious Rend so easily puts it over the top when you combine that with how centralizing it is on team building.
 
So pokemon like Rotom-W, Appletun, and maybe even Ludicolo (which I have never even seen in OU this gen) could theoretically switch in it without a water cancelling ability.
Not quite. Appletun can potentially get smacked by Ice Fang or Outrage, while the other two lack access to reliable recovery and Rotom-W gets cleanly 2HKOed by banded or rain-boosted Fishious Rend on the switch regardless of defensive investment.

Dracovish isn't a Dracovish counter because it, too, lacks access to reliable recovery while also being prone-boned by Dracovish's Outrage on the switch.

As such, this showcases why people tend to have so many issues with Dracovish and its severe teambuilding constraints: there are a few things that can deal with Fishious Rend on paper, but in practice it has the tools to 2HKO all of them barring Gastrodon or it can simply predict and get some valuable chip. No Dracovish answers besides Gastrodon have access to reliable recovery, and as a result Dracovish wears them down long-term and then proceeds to click Fishious Rend to smash the rest of your team to pieces.
 
in what world do appletun, rotom-w or ludicolo counter dracovish lol. rotom-w and ludicolo (yes, a 4-times resist) get roasted by band fishous rend and appletun and dracovish cant switch in at all for obvious reasons, and even then with a layer of spikes and hazard, they all get destroyed by banded rends

just because rends is stupidly powerful doesnt mean that you cannot click any other move. thats the point of actually running 3 other moves.
 
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