Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion v3 (Usage in post #251)

[TPP]

Usage Stats for February are here!

Usage

Combined usage for OU (1695 stats)
+ ---- + ------------------ + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Percent |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ------- +
| 1    | Dragapult          | 39.211% |
| 2    | Clefable           | 34.023% |
| 3    | Corviknight        | 30.986% |
| 4    | Excadrill          | 22.390% |
| 5    | Seismitoad         | 22.319% |
| 6    | Aegislash          | 18.513% |
| 7    | Kommo-o            | 17.381% |
| 8    | Hydreigon          | 17.367% |
| 9    | Ferrothorn         | 16.992% |
| 10   | Mandibuzz          | 16.319% |
| 11   | Cinderace          | 15.883% |
| 12   | Zeraora            | 15.349% |
| 13   | Rotom-Heat         | 14.574% |
| 14   | Bisharp            | 13.843% |
| 15   | Toxapex            | 13.557% |
| 16   | Dracovish          | 13.441% |
| 17   | Dugtrio            | 12.560% |
| 18   | Conkeldurr         | 11.797% |
| 19   | Cloyster           | 10.771% |
| 20   | Togekiss           |  9.772% |
| 21   | Hatterene          |  8.152% |
| 22   | Grimmsnarl         |  7.975% |
| 23   | Terrakion          |  7.443% |
| 24   | Mew                |  7.272% |
| 25   | Sylveon            |  6.926% |
| 26   | Kyurem             |  6.702% |
| 27   | Pelipper           |  6.472% |
| 28   | Gengar             |  6.456% |
| 29   | Keldeo             |  6.415% |
| 30   | Mimikyu            |  6.165% |
| 31   | Tyranitar          |  6.028% |
| 32   | Obstagoon          |  5.903% |
| 33   | Rotom-Wash         |  5.585% |
| 34   | Jirachi            |  5.561% |
| 35   | Torkoal            |  5.311% |
| 36   | Ditto              |  5.289% |
| 37   | Hippowdon          |  5.198% |
| 38   | Melmetal           |  5.159% |
| 39   | Darmanitan         |  4.655% |
| 40   | Venusaur           |  4.507% |
| 41   | Kyurem-Black       |  4.203% |
| 42   | Gyarados           |  4.127% |
| 43   | Toxtricity         |  3.983% |
| 44   | Primarina          |  3.824% |
| 45   | Crawdaunt          |  3.670% |
| 46   | Rotom-Mow          |  3.666% |
| 47   | Hawlucha           |  3.563% |
| 48   | Mantine            |  3.155% |
| 49   | Necrozma           |  2.849% |
| 50   | Incineroar         |  2.613% |
| 51   | Gastrodon          |  2.529% |
| 52   | Celebi             |  2.433% |
| 53   | Mamoswine          |  2.314% |
| 54   | Vaporeon           |  2.186% |
| 55   | Weezing-Galar      |  2.167% |
| 56   | Vikavolt           |  2.151% |
| 57   | Ninetales-Alola    |  2.081% |
| 58   | Chandelure         |  2.019% |
| 59   | Barraskewda        |  1.970% |
| 60   | Blastoise          |  1.867% |
| 61   | Shuckle            |  1.855% |
| 62   | Ribombee           |  1.753% |
| 63   | Diggersby          |  1.636% |
| 64   | Corsola-Galar      |  1.558% |
| 65   | Weavile            |  1.548% |
| 66   | Reuniclus          |  1.476% |
| 67   | Jellicent          |  1.426% |
| 68   | Quagsire           |  1.350% |
| 69   | Snorlax            |  1.342% |
| 70   | Dracozolt          |  1.280% |
| 71   | Rhyperior          |  1.162% |
| 72   | Charizard          |  1.070% |
| 73   | Cobalion           |  1.053% |
| 74   | Sirfetch'd         |  1.050% |
| 75   | Galvantula         |  1.036% |
| 76   | Heliolisk          |  1.015% |
| 77   | Sigilyph           |  0.972% |
| 78   | Haxorus            |  0.960% |
| 79   | Sandaconda         |  0.863% |
| 80   | Gardevoir          |  0.837% |
| 81   | Polteageist        |  0.820% |
| 82   | Milotic            |  0.771% |
| 83   | Ninetales          |  0.722% |
| 84   | Xatu               |  0.710% |
| 85   | Salazzle           |  0.687% |
| 86   | Centiskorch        |  0.655% |
| 87   | Golisopod          |  0.651% |
| 88   | Lucario            |  0.636% |
| 89   | Vanilluxe          |  0.603% |
| 90   | Araquanid          |  0.571% |
| 91   | Goodra             |  0.565% |
| 92   | Whimsicott         |  0.542% |
| 93   | Umbreon            |  0.515% |
| 94   | Shiftry            |  0.496% |
| 95   | Arcanine           |  0.488% |
| 96   | Pincurchin         |  0.480% |
| 97   | Pyukumuku          |  0.472% |
| 98   | Copperajah         |  0.463% |
| 99   | Cinccino           |  0.458% |
| 100  | Toxicroak          |  0.444% |
| 101  | Runerigus          |  0.429% |
| 102  | Arctozolt          |  0.409% |
| 103  | Indeedee           |  0.406% |
| 104  | Roserade           |  0.405% |
| 105  | Durant             |  0.402% |
| 106  | Gigalith           |  0.376% |
| 107  | Frosmoth           |  0.355% |
| 108  | Rotom-Fan          |  0.348% |
| 109  | Flygon             |  0.327% |
| 110  | Ludicolo           |  0.322% |
| 111  | Slurpuff           |  0.305% |
| 112  | Duraludon          |  0.301% |
| 113  | Raichu-Alola       |  0.282% |
| 114  | Decidueye          |  0.261% |
| 115  | Lapras             |  0.250% |
| 116  | Espeon             |  0.248% |
| 117  | Virizion           |  0.242% |
| 118  | Coalossal          |  0.234% |
| 119  | Pangoro            |  0.229% |
| 120  | Braviary           |  0.212% |
| 121  | Diglett            |  0.210% |
| 122  | Bronzong           |  0.209% |
| 123  | Morpeko            |  0.208% |
| 124  | Drednaw            |  0.205% |
| 125  | Noivern            |  0.203% |
| 126  | Inteleon           |  0.201% |
| 127  | Drapion            |  0.200% |
| 128  | Rillaboom          |  0.198% |
| 129  | Vileplume          |  0.193% |
| 130  | Butterfree         |  0.185% |
| 131  | Orbeetle           |  0.179% |
| 132  | Cursola            |  0.177% |
| 133  | Appletun           |  0.174% |
| 134  | Claydol            |  0.166% |
| 135  | Avalugg            |  0.165% |
| 136  | Linoone            |  0.164% |
| 137  | Steelix            |  0.152% |
| 138  | Cramorant          |  0.152% |
| 139  | Eldegoss           |  0.147% |
| 140  | Tsareena           |  0.146% |
| 141  | Indeedee-F         |  0.144% |
| 142  | Jolteon            |  0.144% |
| 143  | Lanturn            |  0.141% |
| 144  | Leafeon            |  0.141% |
| 145  | Hitmonlee          |  0.138% |
| 146  | Pikachu            |  0.133% |
| 147  | Glaceon            |  0.132% |
| 148  | Accelgor           |  0.123% |
| 149  | Bewear             |  0.123% |
| 150  | Abomasnow          |  0.117% |
| 151  | Machamp            |  0.115% |
| 152  | Sableye            |  0.114% |
| 153  | Beartic            |  0.108% |
| 154  | Gallade            |  0.105% |
| 155  | Hitmontop          |  0.105% |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ------- +

Visual

We're still pretty early in the post-home meta, so a lot of the above usage stats are going to change as the metagame develops. It's a little hard to explain everything for that reason as well, but it's worth noting that OU is becoming less top heavy in terms of usage. In other words, the most common mons are becoming less common due to other options/mons being used, rather than decline in usage due to less success. Some easy examples of this are Corviknight going from 37.55% to 30.98%, and Hydreigon going from 25.33% to 17.36%. Also, despite Melmetal being on the list, it is still banned from OU. It was available earlier in the month and had enough usage to remain above the 4.52% cut off.

These are the newest members of OU that came from pokemon home. I won't go into detail about them here as you can read about them in Finchinator's latest VR post.

Torkoal and Hippowdon are both OU as well. Sun teams as a whole benefited tremendously from Venusaur being available, and they can also make use of Darmanitan and Dugtrio. Hippowdon barely missed the cut for OU last time, but is finally OU by usage. It can replace Sun or Rain with Sandstorm, switch into several physical threats, such as Terrakion, Aegislash and Excadrill, and provide Stealth Rock.

I'll leave some questions below as I always do:

1. How do you guys feel about the usage stats?
2. Are there any rises/drops that you expected or think are noteworthy?
3. Which mons do you think will continue rising and which mons will continue dropping?
4. Are there any non-OU mons that may rise up to OU next month? If so, what are they?
5. Which of the new mons, if any, do you believe will skyrocket in usage and which, if any, do you believe will drop from OU?
6. Why do you think the mons that see the most usage get used the most? What makes them strong/consistent in this metagame?
7. Are there any mons you believe to be unexplored or aren't currently making the most of their potential?

I might answer these questions later myself, but in the meantime, cheers to our first month in the pokemon home OU metagame, and I hope you all have a good rest of the day. If you have any questions, feel free to ask.

 

[Ketchup2]

Im quite surprised that Torkoal made OU by usage (because it’s surprising that a previously untiered mon last gen suddenly is making waves), though I suppose it was expected since Venusaur got mad buffed this gen. Used it as well, it’s deceptively tanky.

On a side note though, also interested that Dragapult usage is going down, though Im pretty sure Zeraora might become a replacement since it was stated to have over 40% usage and not slowing down anytime soon. Reason I think so is because it is potentially even stronger than Pult and mauls it with Knock Off/Play Rough

 

[PsyducksChili]

Okay how the fuck is Torkoal OU? There is literally no chlorophyll Pokemon in overused. Like bruh what the fuck there isn't even Venusaur? Like it's coverage is bad and Toad beats it. Like it's spdef is awful. Look at these calcs

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Torkoal in Rain: 644-758 (187.7 - 220.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+6 252 SpA Rotom-Heat Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Torkoal in Sun: 493-581 (143.3 - 168.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Torkoal: 384-452 (111.6 - 131.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It loses to other setters which makes it absolutely fucking useless. It has stealth rocks but that doesn't matter, because of heavy duty boots.
Frankly, this is fake I think. Theres no way this has usage. I think TDK must have changed it. To be honest, since gen1 fire types were bad. Like there were NO fire types in OU, and so why is Torkoal OU? It was PU last gen. Just put it in the low tiers gay ass mods.

 

[TPP]

Okay how the fuck is Torkoal OU? There is literally no chlorophyll Pokemon in overused. Like bruh what the fuck there isn't even Venusaur? Like it's coverage is bad and Toad beats it. Like it's spdef is awful. Look at these calcs

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Torkoal in Rain: 644-758 (187.7 - 220.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+6 252 SpA Rotom-Heat Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Torkoal in Sun: 493-581 (143.3 - 168.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Torkoal: 384-452 (111.6 - 131.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It loses to other setters which makes it absolutely fucking useless. It has stealth rocks but that doesn't matter, because of heavy duty boots.
Frankly, this is fake I think. Theres no way this has usage. I think TDK must have changed it. To be honest, since gen1 fire types were bad. Like there were NO fire types in OU, and so why is Torkoal OU? It was PU last gen. Just put it in the low tiers gay ass mods.

If you could try just a tiny bit to read my post above and Finch's VR post or even pay attention to the OU ladder at all, you'll see why Torkoal is OU. Venusuar barely missed the cutoff for OU by usage, but it was added to the viability rankings yesterday and most regular OU players have acknowledged that Sun is a playstyle that people can and will use in SS OU. Your calcs are pointless because no one is letting Torkoal get hit by those moves and if you're letting that happen, you're either not using it right, or the game was already over. Also, Heatran and Volcarona have been OU since they were added in Gens 4 and 5 respectively, not to mention that Mega Charizard and Victini were common in Gen 7 OU. You can watch videos (blunder has a video with sun here), replays, or look for posts on forums to see how sun is used. Posting before you look into any of that is not a good idea and I would advise not doing it again.

Please avoid posting minimal effort posts and put some time into it before writing us off as "gay ass mods." Have a good rest of your day.

 

[galarian darmanitan]

If you could try just a tiny bit to read my post above and Finch's VR post or even pay attention to the OU ladder at all, then you'll see why Torkoal is OU. Venusuar barely missed the cutoff for OU by usage, but it was added to the viability rankings yesterday and most regular OU players have acknowledged that Sun is a playstyle that people can and will use in SS OU. Your calcs are pointless because no one is letting Torkoal get hit by those moves and if you're letting that happen, you're either not using it right, or the game was already over. Also, Heatran and Volcarona have been OU since they were added in Gens 4 and 5 respectively, not to mention that Mega Charizard and Victini were common in Gen 7 OU. You can watch videos (blunder has a video with sun here), replays, or look for posts on forums to see how sun is used. Posting before you look into any of that is not a good idea and I would advise not doing it again.

Please avoid posting minimal effort posts and put some time into it before writing us off as "gay ass mods." Have a good rest of your day.

I think his point was that he was surprised at torkoal being overused when venasaur didn't make the cutoff, because not that many people are really using torkoal without venasaur. If I had to guess torkoal would have slightly higher usage because people are experimenting cutting venasaur and just using charizard, darm, shiftry, cinderace etc without it. (which in my opinion is not really a great strategy).

 

[Gross Sweep]

So we have had the home update for a bit now, and people have been at work. I have been keeping a close eye on this week of SPL, and there are a few trends that I have been noticing. some offensive insurgence, and defensive cores on the rise alike.

If you watched any SPL games this week you probably saw this defensive core taking center stage. It was used on 15 of the 30 teams brought to SS OU games this week. Honestly it made some waves, especially with Teleport Clefable which helped it pass Wishes and keep up some semblance of momentum teaming with U-Turn Corviknight. Along with this core Clefable really stole the show getting used on 26/30 teams brought this week. With all the new threats like Keldeo in the tier, Clefable is really holding the tier together. Outside of teams that are truly offensive in nature, I think to say it's almost a mandatory addition to any team trying to account for all the threats in the tier.

I would expect any team really trying to find success in the tier needs to be able to comfortably handle this combination when combined with some other common denominators like

and

. Since honestly the games today have all been kinda boring to watch with a couple exceptions like Teal's crazy W. Honestly it felt like some of the teams that were brought were trying to lose to Clefable, I'm not trying to suggest over-preparing for the pink blob, but all teams need to have a concrete way of not just dealing with, but punishing Clefable before they're ever loaded up to a game. However, this is easier said than done.

Offensively speaking one mon I find rather interesting currently is

. Nasty Plot Rotom-H is really in a great position to succeed, the biggest thing unfortunately holding it back is Overheat only having 8 PP, along with a few mons like Seismitoad and Kommo-o. I have been very adamant about my support of this thing in gen 8 since Dynamax was still running wild, as Fire types are great in this tier and there is no competition with Tran and Volcarona still stuck in limbo. This thing can still prove a tad underwhelming though in practice, and needs help breaking through really bulky teams, which is something to keep in mind.

Kyurem was just recently released and it is truly making waves with the Specs set. It got a ton of usage this week in SPL, and I wouldn't be surprised if it saw even more next week. I am really waiting for a Toxic Spikes team that takes advantage of Pressure Kyurem to come to light this generation, but it is hard to justify a team like that when Specs is so great. If you haven't gotten to use thismon yet, I strongly recommend it since it's borderline busted as people haven't fully adjusted to it yet.

Ice types in general are honestly feeling pretty strong.

and

honestly don't seem that bad. They have always been strong offensively, but right now I just get the feeling they can put in some serious work. I think Kyurem will steal a lot of attention, but try not to overlook these two, especially Mamoswine who has the potential to be really great right now.

Another offensive core I have seen a bit was

which honestly puts a lot of stress on defensive teams. Keldeo honestly seems like the odd man out, but Zeraora + Aegi + other strong kinda fastish mon like a Hydreigon, and you have the start of a solid team. I expect to see even more teams making use of this core in the near future as it has a lot of staying power (obviously as it makes use of some of the best mons the tier has to offer). Not much to say about this group aside from the fact Zeraora and Aegislash are incredibly good in the tier, and should be used. Really just wanted to point out the existence of offensive cores like this, so people can hopefully play around with them and help advance the tier.

Anyway that's it, just wanted to give a little snapshot of the meta based on what I've seen progressing the last couple of weeks.

 

[spatula]

On the topic of mons that work well with aegislash, I am really liking the core of aegislash + kyurem. I have been seeing this core fairly frequently in spl and on ladder and they work great together as the mons that can pivot in on aegislash like hippowdon, mandibuzz, and toxapex all get smashed by kyurem. Wish teleport clef seems to be a decent support mon to pair with these two as wish support allows these mons to have some more longevity when they come in on passive pokemon through a clefable teleport. For example, a hippowdon, toxapex, or opposing clefable looking to get up hazards vs your own clefable is now faced with the prospect of letting in one of these breakers for free along with some healing which can force your opponent to have to make some really risky plays.

 

[Scenic]

I can't make sense of this. You're either going to be switching in on a Wish or a Moonblast (or another weak attack)e, so over time you're going to get worn down. Next, the wishpasser can protect on your Shackle to heal itself, or simply pass to another mon who resists what you're throwing at it. Additionally, if you're running Shackle, your whole purpose is to trap mons - making Uturn a somewhat odd choice. Then, for a mon like Decidueye with a SpDef stat that is higher than its HP, AV is going to provide marginal utility over an item like Lefties. And last, why do any of this when you can run Sub/Roost to protect yourself both from potential status damage AND provide game-long recovery? Sorry to go in on you but Roost/SD is a much better option to send in against Clef, Vaporeon, or Sylveon.

Hmm I took your points into consideration and it kinda changed my mind on the matter, swords dance is serving me much better with leftovers recovery instead of av, it does mean I cant legit eat dragapult shadow balls anymore but it does actually mean my decidueye can open up sweeps now, thanks for this.

 

[Lanceybear]

I am very glad to see how much sun has benefited from the release of Pokemon Home. On top of the release of Venusaur, I want to shed some light on another cool toy that sun teams will greatly appreciate:

Virizion @ Light Clay
Ability: Justified
EVs: 200 HP / 44 Def / 72 SpD / 192 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brick Break
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Taunt

Virzion's typing, although in most cases lackluster, pairs very well with Torkoal. Also, Virizion has an easy time setting up screens with it's high speed and natural bulk.

Many sun teams are weak to lead Excadrill, but Virizion is able to 1v1 this pokemon with ease:
0 Atk Virizion Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 222-264 (61.4 - 73.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The above EV spread allows Virzion to avoid being OHKO'd by common leads such as Grimsnarl, Alolan Ninetales, Defensive Corvinight, Defensive Pelipper, Bulky Rotom-Heat, Lead Terrakion, and Offensive Mew (View calcs in spoiler):

252+ Atk Grimmsnarl Spirit Break vs. 200 HP / 44 Def Virizion: 314-372 (84.1 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

8 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 200 HP / 72 SpD Virizion: 98-116 (26.2 - 31%) -- 21.5% chance to 3HKO after hail damage

0 Atk Corviknight Brave Bird vs. 200 HP / 44 Def Virizion through Reflect: 284-336 (76.1 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Pelipper Hurricane vs. 200 HP / 72 SpD Virizion: 340-408 (91.1 - 109.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

0 SpA Pelipper Hurricane vs. 200 HP / 72 SpD Virizion through Light Screen: 170-204 (45.5 - 54.6%) -- 51.6% chance to 2HKO

0 SpA Rotom-Heat Overheat vs. 200 HP / 72 SpD Virizion through Light Screen: 111-132 (29.7 - 35.3%) -- 21.8% chance to 3HKO

252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 200 HP / 44 Def Virizion: 241-285 (64.6 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Mew Psychic vs. 200 HP / 72 SpD Virizion through Light Screen: 102-121 (27.3 - 32.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO


Brick Break on a screens setter is great utility. Even if Virizion is taunted by Grimsnarl or Ninetales, Virizion can force these two screen setters to finish it off before they are able to set up screens. Some offensive Pokemon in the tier that are weak to Brick Break do not appreciate being hit by this move as well (View calcs in spoiler):

0 Atk Virizion Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 164-194 (50.4 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Virizion Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 162-192 (50.1 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Virizion Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Obstagoon: 300-352 (91.7 - 107.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO


192 Speed with a Jolly Nature allows Virizion to out-speed nature-boosted base 100s.
Feel free to try this set on your sun team, you won't be disappointed :)

 

[bigjeezy]

I've really been enjoying playing with DD Mew recently

Mew @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Drain Punch
- Fire Punch
- Psychic Fangs

Most people aren't expecting this kind of set which makes it fairly easy to set up a Mew sweep in the late game. After one DD most people will bring a sucker punch user thinking it'll ohko, but the berry let's you hang on and get most of your health back from drain punch

There are a few mons that pose problems with this set:
1) Buzz. Mew can't touch this thing even after a couple of DDs. I've tried switching fire punch for thunder punch, but most buzz sets can still tank it and ko with foul play, even with the colbur berry

2) scarf pult. You need a lot of setup time in order to be able to out speed this mon. I've been running this Mew set with double sucker support from cinderace and bisharp, which is usually more than enough to take out pult before it becomes a problem

3) aegislash. This mon can take fire punches pretty well, especially with the sub+toxic sets being prominent right now.

 

[robofiend]

Hmm I took your points into consideration and it kinda changed my mind on the matter, swords dance is serving me much better with leftovers recovery instead of av, it does mean I cant legit eat dragapult shadow balls anymore but it does actually mean my decidueye can open up sweeps now, thanks for this.

Awesome! I've seen my Owl bro eat SB from Pult - no idea what kinda set that was though because Specs should kill it!

 

[Moonballer]

I've really been enjoying playing with DD Mew recently

Mew @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Drain Punch
- Fire Punch
- Psychic Fangs

Most people aren't expecting this kind of set which makes it fairly easy to set up a Mew sweep in the late game. After one DD most people will bring a sucker punch user thinking it'll ohko, but the berry let's you hang on and get most of your health back from drain punch

There are a few mons that pose problems with this set:
1) Buzz. Mew can't touch this thing even after a couple of DDs. I've tried switching fire punch for thunder punch, but most buzz sets can still tank it and ko with foul play, even with the colbur berry

2) scarf pult. You need a lot of setup time in order to be able to out speed this mon. I've been running this Mew set with double sucker support from cinderace and bisharp, which is usually more than enough to take out pult before it becomes a problem

3) aegislash. This mon can take fire punches pretty well, especially with the sub+toxic sets being prominent right now.

I can understand choosing Drain Punch > Close Combat for the healing and lack of defense drops but why run fire punch over flare blitz?

 

[Ketchup2]

I can understand choosing Drain Punch > Close Combat for the healing and lack of defense drops but why run fire punch over flare blitz?

Probably to avoid recoil damage.

 

[Ruft]

I decided to put together a compendium for consultation during teambuilding. It's similar to the role compendium but dives deeper into specific things you might be looking for while building teams. It's split up into major sections: one for consultation when building "balanced" (in the widest sense of the word) teams and one for hyper offense, since I feel those are the only two clear-cut distinctions you can make regarding teams this generation. I compiled it for self-use originally but figured I might as well share it here, enjoy.

 

[ShadowMarioGalaxy64]

Mew @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Drain Punch
- Fire Punch
- Psychic Fangs

I’m not a fan of the choices here, admittedly, really going down to Fire Punch and Drain Punch; while I understand why, being a bulkier Dragon Dance user not wanting to go all out with attacks that compromise the bulk, the power level is significantly lower. The following examples are assuming Mew has +1 from Dragon Dance and a Jolly Nature.

Drain Punch is a normally a 2HKO on Hydreigon, sure, but Close Combat is a clean OHKO.

Fire Punch is a 2HKO on, say, Choice Band Aegislash, but has a 93.8% chance to OHKO with Stealth Rock and guaranteed with Spikes; this turns a Weaken Aegislash for later scenario into a One for One Trade-off in some situations. Also, Flare Blitz has a 12.5% chance to OHKO the Sun Toxic variant with Spikes, so with less prior damage, Mew can muscle past it.

Fire Punch’s almost guaranteed 3HKO on a Bulked Up Corviknight becomes an easy 2HKO and Mew at full HP can survive a worst-case Brave Bird Max Damage and recoil...albeit barely.

Mandibuzz remains incredibly troublesome either way, though.

I think Jolly is going to be much more effective than Adamant despite the Speed Decreep; +1 Adamant reaches 448, not bad, but +1 Jolly hits 492, which allows it to additionally outspeed +1 Jolly Excadrill, Choice Scarf Darmanitan, +2 Neutral Ludicolo, +2 Neutral Cloyster, +1 Jolly Haxorus, +1 Timid Hydreigon, and +2 Jolly Tyranitar, allowing Mew to net easier KOs on a couple more troublemakers assuming the move switch.

This post was less dismantling a set and more of a food for thought one.

 

[Mjcoolthepokegod]

I think the usage stats accurately represent the meta. The top 3 pokemon dragapult ,corviknight,and. Clefable show how common bulky offense and balance is as these are core mons used in these teams.Excadrill usage shows its flexibility between being a sand wincon, hyper offense lead, and a standalone sweeper. Seismitoad has been the stealth rock user of choice since the beginning of the gen this is reflected in the usage stats. Aegislash offensive prowess has only improved this gen when it gained access to close combat. It can even run sub toxic now because of home. The usage of aegislash may continue to rise imo.
All in all I think these usage stats are almost spot on with what's being ran in the current metagame.

 

[GreenION]

Competitive as a whole in gen 8 is boring. The Council just likes to make things not fun and not let people experiment. We are seeing Defensive cores built around Corvi/Clef/Seismitoad and offensive cores built around Zera/Aegis/Dragon-type mons and it just isn't fun to face.

 

[2bainz]

Competitive as a whole in gen 8 is boring. The Council just likes to make things not fun and not let people experiment. We are seeing Defensive cores built around Corvi/Clef/Seismitoad and offensive cores built around Zera/Aegis/Dragon-type mons and it just isn't fun to face.

I don't know how people come up with this take all the time. Pokemon is a game where in every single format, whether it's singles or doubles, some mons will be inherently better and will see higher usage because the opportunity cost of not using them is too high. You can say the same about every single format, ever.

"VGC as a whole in gen 8 is boring. The Pokemon Company just likes to make things not fun and not let people experiment. We are seeing Defensive cores built around Togekiss/Arcanine/Gastrodon and offensive cores built around Dragapult/Excadrill/Duraludon and it just isn't fun to face."

"Competitive as a whole in gen 7 is boring. The Council just likes to make things not fun and not let people experiment. We are seeing Defensive cores built around Pex/Ferro/Heatran and offensive cores built around Lando/Magearna/Ash-Gren and it just isn't fun to face."

In competitive, there will naturally be some level of centralization in a tier. Even a tier like Anything Goes becomes centralized around mons like Arceus, P-Groudon, M-Rayquaza, etc. It doesn't mean you can't use something unconventional and still have success. And how fun it is to face common cores in any metagame is completely subjective.

 

[Scarfire]

Competitive as a whole in gen 8 is boring. The Council just likes to make things not fun and not let people experiment. We are seeing Defensive cores built around Corvi/Clef/Seismitoad and offensive cores built around Zera/Aegis/Dragon-type mons and it just isn't fun to face.

What exactly did the council do to ruin your fun lol? A certain ban, or a lack of a ban? I don't understand.

 

[Finchinator]

What exactly did the council do to ruin your fun lol? A certain ban, or a lack of a ban? I don't understand.

He is mad we only cater to ladder and tournament players with our tiering. I tried explaining to him that these are the only players that actually play the Smogon format in a recognizable/official regard that we can draw conclusions off of, but he did not seem to understand and kept PMing me instead. He believes we should not have quickbanned Melmetal or Kyurem-Black because they are fun for the casual player. It is not worth derailing the thread with his antics again, so we're going to end it now before it escalates further.

resume your normal discussion

 

[Saltytears]

With the meta being settled isn't time for a Duggy quickban and AT suspect to begin ? WishPort Clefable + Duggy is so much fun & healthy for the metagame Oof .

 

[Abyssal Ruins]

Thanks to the discussion robopoke and I had that one day in OU chat, I woke up in the middle of the night and decided to create this post. This goes out to him and the lovely OUers who were also discussing that day.

/ Etc. win-cons. / (Webs)
Robopoke planned to build some HO and we discussed how strong Hyper Offense was in the current metagame. He mentioned that Excadrill was such a powerful lead on offensive archetypes because of the new Gen 8 buffs; you Rapid Spin the slower mons turn 1, and you set fast Stealth Rock turn 2. EQ can also be used turn 2 to knock out Excadrill, get chip, etc. Steel Beam is used to prevent Defog, gain momentum, etc. You get the idea. Lead Exca defines HO.

The PROBLEM with this is that it's got to the point where winning Excadrill mirrors come down to LOSING the speed tie turn 1 and WINNING the speed tie turn 2 so you come out alive. Of course this is Pokemon, and you never get what you want. I wanted to expand my options because I have seen so many lead Exca teams in high ladder and using Exca myself ain't cut it for me. Robopoke experimented with Fist Plate/Life Orb + Double Kick or variants with Quick Attack, but the sets didn't pack that punch (Trapped by Duggy, 75% OHKO'd by Specs Dragapult, etc).

I eventually discovered this set which has done me so well vs. lead Excas. It's not that groundbreaking (no pun intended), but you should include it in your pool of options when choosing HO mons:

King Push (Terrakion) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Stone Edge
- Close Combat
- Bulldoze

Bulldoze has a lot of utility as a suicide lead and COMPLETELY disregards the turn 2 issue of Excadrill being faster. The known play for Excadrill turn 1 is to Rapid Spin, so most times they won't have a chance to get rocks up and you can 2hko Exca. If they rocks turn 1, then your Focus Sash is still intact to fire off powerful Stone Edges/CCs/set Stealth Rock up afterwards. You also win matchups vs. faster mons like Zeraora, and Dragapult. An opposing team comp. of Excadrill + Dragapult is delightful because if Dragapult just so happens to switch in predicting CC, your Bulldoze into Stone Edge will KO. Not being completely walled by Aegislash is nice. winning Dugtrio leads is also nice (you can rocks on their potential Sucker Punch).

I don't save much replays because I don't think about saving them, but here are ones I found:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1071210529 [OST r3] - He didn't spin but me setting up rocks helped.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1070048856 [1900s]

I also want to express just how much I love Gen 8 OU at the moment, because it's been one of my favorite metagames thus far. I thank the Smog community a bunch for their new ideas to progress this metagame, especially with SPL, OST, and OU SSNL ongoing. I plan to go far in the latter two so keep an eye out. :]

 

[Mjcoolthepokegod]

I think kyurem and zeraora will continue to rise in usage. zeraora gaining access to play rough this gen made it alot better than last gen. It allows it to hit dragon types such as dragapult and kommo-o super effectively. life orb zeraora with four attacks; i find to be the most effective set. because of its decent coverage, teams have a hard time switching into it. I think kyurem will continue to rise is usage as well. With it getting access to freeze dry this gen its is now able to bypass bulky waters. A majority of the tier doesnt like taking a specs ice beam or draco meteor from this pokemon and its coverage is relatively solid with access to moves such as earth power, focus blast, and flash cannon for specially defensive clefable.

 

[bigjeezy]

I’m not a fan of the choices here, admittedly, really going down to Fire Punch and Drain Punch; while I understand why, being a bulkier Dragon Dance user not wanting to go all out with attacks that compromise the bulk, the power level is significantly lower. The following examples are assuming Mew has +1 from Dragon Dance and a Jolly Nature.

Drain Punch is a normally a 2HKO on Hydreigon, sure, but Close Combat is a clean OHKO.

Fire Punch is a 2HKO on, say, Choice Band Aegislash, but has a 93.8% chance to OHKO with Stealth Rock and guaranteed with Spikes; this turns a Weaken Aegislash for later scenario into a One for One Trade-off in some situations. Also, Flare Blitz has a 12.5% chance to OHKO the Sun Toxic variant with Spikes, so with less prior damage, Mew can muscle past it.

Fire Punch’s almost guaranteed 3HKO on a Bulked Up Corviknight becomes an easy 2HKO and Mew at full HP can survive a worst-case Brave Bird Max Damage and recoil...albeit barely.

Mandibuzz remains incredibly troublesome either way, though.

I think Jolly is going to be much more effective than Adamant despite the Speed Decreep; +1 Adamant reaches 448, not bad, but +1 Jolly hits 492, which allows it to additionally outspeed +1 Jolly Excadrill, Choice Scarf Darmanitan, +2 Neutral Ludicolo, +2 Neutral Cloyster, +1 Jolly Haxorus, +1 Timid Hydreigon, and +2 Jolly Tyranitar, allowing Mew to net easier KOs on a couple more troublemakers assuming the move switch.

This post was less dismantling a set and more of a food for thought one.

I agree with everything here, assuming you only get +1. Though, in my experience it's easy to get +2 (maybe that's just a matter of a difference in style of play). At +2 you can more safely run adament, and the lower power of the moveset isn't so much a hindrance.

But if you're going for +1, i agree flare blitz>FP, but in that case I'd stay with drain punch to help heal off recoil plus any sucker punch damage

 

[GreenION]

He is mad we only cater to ladder and tournament players with our tiering. I tried explaining to him that these are the only players that actually play the Smogon format in a recognizable/official regard that we can draw conclusions off of, but he did not seem to understand and kept PMing me instead. He believes we should not have quickbanned Melmetal or Kyurem-Black because they are fun for the casual player. It is not worth derailing the thread with his antics again, so we're going to end it now before it escalates further.

resume your normal discussion

I also see that Lord Finchy here misinterpreted what I was trying to say all along. It was a simple back and forth we had and I left the convo as he was repeating the same point over and over again. Maybe make the community more open and welcoming and less about a Council would make things better here. Don't get me wrong, I love Smogon. It has helped me become so much better and for the most part, people here are pretty cool. But that doesn't mean that it's not immune to criticism. I apologize for how abrasive my point came off, but I still stand by my points.