Resource SS OU Viability Ranking Thread [Pre-DLC]

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Gardevoir: Unranked --> Somewhere in C

Gardevoir @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Trace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Psychic
- Trick / Focus Blast
- Healing Wish


I've used gardevoir successfully pre home (hitting over 1900 on the ladder), and its got even better with the home additions.

With a choice scarf, it makes a decent revenge killer, outspeeding dragapult and zeraora, with moonblast allowing it to kill the threatening dragons as well as terrakion and conkeldurr, and psychic for venu and gengar. Trace is a fantastic ability which has some very important uses, including tracing infiltrator for sub pult, weather sweeping abilities to kill venusaur and weakened swift swimmers (rush exca too if focus blast), possibly allowing you to clean up late game, and also zera's volt absorb, allowing it to serve as a (very) soft check. It's also not a deadweight V fatter teams due to trick, which allows it to cripple something like corvik or ferro, turning them into setup bait for your sweeper. Healing wish is also an amazing move with very limited distribution.

Replays (disclaimer: some of these are pre home):
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1073768461-dwo1ztmt28z5oy5wh8kzkjq52d5pcn9pw - Cleans up nicely and helps break clef via trick
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1052622677 - Honestly the MVP here
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1068616843 - Tricks sylv and heals cinderace, allowing me to break through
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1058545145 - Removes a clef and heals croak, who wins late game
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1049755206-tcxb7ph5im28l3ei14c42p8mcb0uekipw - Tricks a clef making it sack fodder and kills a hydra
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1046104328-f5qv82x2j7pl7cc76zen7eodbnuo0n0pw - Comes into and kills a hydra, almost takes out a hatterene too
 
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The only advantage I really see seismitoad having over gastrodon is rocks
I just want to note that Toad does actually have three other advantages. It's significantly faster than Gastro, though going off of the list of speed tiers, this doesn't actually seem to matter that much on defensive sets. However, this feeds into the second advantage, which is that Toad had the option to go on the offensive. I'm not sure how viable this option actually is, so take it with a grain of salt, but I remember that early in the meta, people were experimenting with Swift Swim Toad.

However, the third and most important advantage Toad has is the nature of its Water immunity. Sure, Gastrodon has access to reliable recovery, but it has to stop and use it. While Toad's recovery isn't reliable, Water Absorb gives it the opportunity to heal simply by pivoting into Water attacks, without stopping and giving up momentum. It's like a limited version of Regenerator.
 
However, the third and most important advantage Toad has is the nature of its Water immunity. Sure, Gastrodon has access to reliable recovery, but it has to stop and use it. While Toad's recovery isn't reliable, Water Absorb gives it the opportunity to heal simply by pivoting into Water attacks, without stopping and giving up momentum. It's like a limited version of Regenerator.
Gastrodon's Storm Drain would like a word.
 
The first of a few nominations I want to make is for Mew to rise, I think potentially to B+ rank but at least higher than C+, which is criminal.

Home brought Mew recovery in the form of soft-boiled or roost which enables a very diabolical set of max hp/def CM stored power, which is possibly the best sweeper/breaker in the game. I have tons of replays on my account with it and have ran it to top 5 pre-Melmetal/KyuB ban and rn using it I'm like top 25 or something as of this post. It requires little support to function adequately but with just a bit more than a little it 6-0's the majority of teams.

It beats unaware with stored power, either beats Mandibuzz by using draining kiss/dazzling gleam or using more aura spheres than it has roosts if it's max hp/spdef, or syncing toxic, lives Adamant LO Bisharp knock off from full, has a chance to live banded Adamant Dracovish Fishious Rend outside of rain from full, doesn't lose to Ditto, etc.

And then obviously, Mew can run many, many other sets than this one. But this one I feel is a major threat, not many people I've encountered have something that hard stops it. The fact it could be running other sets means that they often don't switch in the correct counter on the first setup and 2 setups is often gg.

Replays: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1069731510 (long)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1069670837 (shows countering beating Dragapult)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1064732290 (beating stall)


Other stuff I think should be discussed and I'll make short form arguments for:

Bisharp, Venusaur, Darmanitan, and Durant should be one rank higher than where they're at (A-,B,C+,C respectively). The first three because they perform their roles better than where they're put basically.

Bisharp is more threatening than any Pokemon in its current tier, it has essentially a perfect set that can predict its way through counters.

Venusaur has near perfect coverage basically just missing out on Dragapult, making it more threatening in sun than Mantine in rain imo.

Darm in sun is like Vish in rain, few counters and lots of killing power but it has U-turn to play around its counters. Very difficult to figure out how you're going to kill it if it has good hazard removal support.

Durant has just gotten better with Hone Claws, it's more capable and reliable than C-. First Impression killing power is no joke either especially with new speed creep.

Kommo'o, Toxapex, and Hawlucha should all drop one (A, A, B- respectively).

Kommo'o does not have an A+ set, it is somewhat a jack of all trades master of one with that one set being defensive SR setter. But that one set has a lot of counters and leaves it as somewhat setup fodder. Every setup set has its own issue and is easily countered by a proper defensive type.

Toxapex has many more threats with Home and no longer is one of the only Toxic users. It did nothing but lose out imo.

Hawlucha just does not have setup opportunity, so many common threats can switch in and dispatch it.

Xatu should be untiered. Maybe that's a hot take, I'm not sure. But since Home, there are now two better mons with Teleport in Clef and Arcanine. Even before Home, that niche was really stupid and I've never seen it have any use. Now it's basically trolling.

Last but not least Weezing-Galar should be ranked at C- or C tier. I think I've seen enough of Neutralizing Gas doing good work against stuff like Conkeldurr, Clef, and Grimmsnarl that I believe that set is useful.

The set that I've ran that I can attest to its usefulness is Misty Surge. Misty Surge has great use on HO teams, switching in after screens to ensure your sweepers can't be statused or easily killed. I can imagine it being useful on other types of teams but that's where I've found success. With the influx of Toxic and things like Yawn Torkoal, it's more relevant than it might appear on first glance.

It makes mons like Toxapex safe switchins for things like Zeraora or Bisharp. Completely kills off the gameplan of Hex Dragapult. Generally helps HO defeat stall. It's not entirely deadweight either as utility like memento, aromatherapy, and even defog are available (defog obviously gets rid of terrain but sometimes that's worth).

Sorry if that's a lot of nominations but those were the main mons that I thought weren't addressed/were incorrectly placed on the last slate.
 
Gastrodon's Storm Drain would like a word.
The argument is that Water Absorb is a better ability than Storm Drain for a defensive pivot, which is true. Given Gastrodon is often forced to use Recover, it is rarely able to capitalize on the boost provided by Storm Drain. Its niches over Seismitoad are Recover and Clear Smog, which leaves Gastrodon in an awkward middle ground between Toad and Vaporeon. It's able to provide some role compression but generally outclassed by one or the other in most relevant roles it could hope to fulfill.

And i do think Vaporeon is also a bit outclassed, for that matter, as well.
 
Durant C- to C+
I would like to put my favorite Pokémon up higher.This thing is an incredibly underrated threat at the moment.Its Choice Band First Impression has a 100% chance to knock out Dracovish in one hit.I know you have to swap out right after but it’s attacks do incredible damage.Thunder Fang does around 60% to Toxapex so if you can predict correctly you can kill it or scare it off.Thunder Fang or Crunch is kind of a hard call.Without Crunch Aegislash is a hard counter but without Thunder Fang Gyrados and Toxapex are hard walls.Superpower is also needed along side Iron Head to hit things like Obstagoin,Duraludon,A harder hit on Cloyster,Excadrill and Ferrothorn
 

Attachments

I have to reinstate how amazing Neutralizing Gas as an ability is and that it doesn't matter much if you run Weezing or Galar Weezing: For example I run this set:


Weezing @ Black Sludge
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
EVs: 4 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe (not set in stone, basically the idea is to have something quick with this ability)
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Taunt
- Pain Split
- Clear Smog


The idea is to have something which can force out a lot of common OU staples/strategies out.
Things this set can beat(imagine a 1 vs 1 scenario, not switching in):
- Clefable
- Prankster Screens Grimmsnarl
- Weather Setters(in the sense that you can toxic them)
- Aurora Veil
- Regenerator

I commonly started with this set
Disrupting common OU strategies was very amazing during a short run in the OU ladder. Honestly, more people should experiment with N. Gas

I won't propose a ranking immediately, since I am not even sure which form of Weezing is superior in OU; but nontheless it warrants a niche as it can do something no other mon can do.
 
Slate looks pretty good to me! I was going to nominate Mew higher myself.

Personally I think Mew should be at least as high as Necrozma and Renuclius, as it is another fat Psychic type capable of running a very sturdy Defensive CM set, while differing from the others by being fast enough to threaten Dark types with Aura Sphere, even without boosts.

Beyond that though, Mew can also run a purely defensive set with any combination of Will o Wisp, Taunt, Defog, and Pivot moves like U-Turn / Volt Switch, as well as SR and Spikes.

And surely its unpredictability accounts for being roughly in the same realm as Necro and Renu (and deservingly higher IMO).

———————

And I might be biased in this one, but I think Snorlax definitely deserves a raise, as the Curselax set is super slept on by the meta.

It is supremely fat on the special side, and thus a nice switch in to Fairies, Physics and Ghosts, has Thick Fat which let’s it counter both Sun teams and Kyruem. Specs Primarina can’t 3HKO it. Body Slam let’s it spread paralysis mid game.

Best of all, Curselax sets up on pretty much any special attacker and is a great wincon, beating most any bulky set up sweeper like a champ, including Bulk Up Corviknight, CM Clefable/Mew, and DD Iron Defense Renuclius and Necrozma by virtue of having STAB Body Slam to fish for paralysis and get free turns and Darkiest Lariat to cut through defensive boosts.

After getting a Curse boost or two,
Snorlax only really struggles against Haze/Unaware users, Fighting types, Tyranitar, Bisharp and Ferrothorn. It’s even fairly resistant to Ditto countering it, if you play it right.

I’ve been running it with TR support on the team I posted in RMT, as TR makes it super super easy to acquire Curse boosts, but Dual Screen support should work as well to help it set up, and Wish or Heal Bell (for Rest) support should also make it even more troublesome for teams to handle.

Replays:
Snorlax vs Sun. Tanks a sun boosted Flare Blitz from Darm after 1 Curse.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1067216197

Snorlax vs CM Renuclius. Tanks a +5 SE Focus Blast.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1067210523

Snorlax vs CM Mew. Tanks an unbelievably strong 220 Stored Power +2 sp Atk from Mew.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1069098453
 
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Jordy

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Gastrodon is really good in this metagame. The argument that Water Absorb is better than Storm Drain is pretty moot because you won't be running Seismitoad and Gastrodon for their abilities anyways; while yes, they're both Water / Ground Pokemon that can check Dracovish and Pokemon like Rotom-H, the difference in their ability and how they enable the Pokemon is not the deciding factor between which you will want to run. You'll run Seismitoad instead of Gastrodon if you need it to compress Stealth Rock; meanwhile, you will want to run Gastrodon because it completely shuts down rain teams, if you're running Amnesia, which is not something Seismitoad can do. Seismitoad is generally speaking better than Gastrodon for sure, but Gastrodon is really good in the current metagame, where rain teams are quite dominant. Gastrodon is definitely deserving of a rise to B+.

Also, why is Vaporeon even being brought into this?? They're not similar at all. They both check Dracovish, but that's where the similarities end too.

Moving on, I would like to nominate Sylveon down to B or B-. While still useful on more specific teams, Sylveon's niche was largely more useful and used in the previous metagame before Pokemon Home dropped. It has a really hard time competing with Clefable because that Pokemon is super broken, and I think that should be reflected in the next update.
 

Zneon

formerly f is for frens
is a Live Chat Contributor
It's been like forever since I have been here, anyway here's a nom that you may or may not disagree with:

to C+/C: An entire tier down, I think Ttar is worse than its ever been in the meta because most of its roles are largely outclassed by many other Pokemon, it can't be a rocker without being outclassed by Kommo-o and Seis, as a breaker it's completely outclassed by stuff like Conk and Zera and overall threatened by a vast majority of the meta offensively and defensively, Pex, Clef, Keld and Terrak to name a few, and being prone to being trapped by Dug to the point of being forced to run Shed because of it. I'm sorry but where the meta is heading this Pokemon adds almost nothing to the table and I think its ranking should reflect that.
 

RottenInfernape

I COULD BE BANNED!
:mimikyu:C+ -> B-
Mimikyu is a great cleaner on hyper offense teams with hard-hitting moves and Swords Dance. It's ability Disguise is useful and Shadow Sneak is a useful priority move for killing off weakened faster foes, especially ghost types such as Dragapult which is currently common in the meta right now. EDIT: Disguise also allows it to freely switch into Knock Off Conkeldurr and hit back with Play Rough.

:conkeldurr: A -> A+
Conkeldurr is definitely one of the looked at Pokemon right now. It's new access to Knock Off gives it better coverage and many teams will have trouble switching into its moves. It makes up for its 40 base speed with Mach Punch and also uses a form of recovery with Drain Punch to last longer in battle. Pair it with some good teammates and Conkeldurr can switch in and break any unprepared teams. There should always be a way to deal with Conkeldurr in teams.
 
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I definitely agree Mimikyu needs to go to B-.Even with the nerf of losing HP when disguise is broken,it’s just such a good cleaner.Its one of the best Dragapult counters too
 

lyd

cactuaring
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Some thoughts of mine, some of these might be some hot takes, but it shouldn't be anything groundbreaking.

to S
This might be a tad controversial but I feel like Dragapult is probably worthy of the title of S rank. Its usage in ladder and SPL is undeniable and Hex + Wisp is truly one of the deadliest sets around (if not THE deadliest set), with little to no reliable checks. Scarf, Specs, and Dragon Dance are also aight, but the main reason for this nomination is the Hex set. This set puts a massive strain on building as there's only a very limited poll of Pokémon that can not only switch into Dragapult's dual STABs but also don't mind a burn.

Obviously, Clefable is at an all-time high, and Dragapult is always a little bit more menacing in theory than in practice, but I still believe Dragapult is on a bit of a limbo between A+ and S, and to me, it's leaning more towards S. Wisp + Hex is pretty much always able to pressure teams and even in the presence of checks Dragapult is a surefire way to provide momentum for teammates to take advantage of Clefable and company with U-turn.

I understand if this nomination doesn't go through but I truly believe Dragapult is a menace worth the S rank position.

to A-

I think the Home metagame hasn't been very favorable to Mandibuzz. Corviknight is a far more consistent remover, and Mandibuzz is very easy to take advantage of, especially with the new threats from Home. Mandibuzz is obviously a surefire Dragapult check, but to me it doesn't accomplish much more than this, struggling to deal with pretty much anything else in A ranks or higher.

to A-

Even though Hippowdon just dropped in the last slate, I feel like Hippowdon is pretty good in the current meta, Physically Defensive is probably the best Terrakion check around while still handling Zeraora very comfortably most of the time, and even Specially Defensive can be considered to help with Specs Aegislash and make it a surefire check to even Grass Knot Zeraora. Checking Excadrill is also huge, as is supporting Excadrill. We've seen lots of Hippowdon + Excadrill this SPL and I personally think it's a phenomenal core.

Whirlwind makes it help versus Bulk Up Corviknight as well, given it's not the last 'mon, and can be a real pain in the ass with Toxic Spikes support from Toxapex as well. Hippowdon isn't the best rocker, but it's definitely serviceable. With all these traits in mind, I think Hippowdon deserves a placement in the A- rank.

to B+

I really don't see much merit in using Jirachi in the current meta. Defensive sets are very prone to Dugtrio and, in general, don't check all that much. Calm Mind sets are also inconsistent and relatively vulnerable to Dugtrio, so that leaves us with Scarf, which I also don't see much merit as the tier is full of Iron Head resists, and U-turning around doesn't accomplish much either. A- just seems needlessly high for Jirachi, to me.

That's about it for my comments! Thanks a ton to finch and the other VR members to keeping this resource up and running as always!
 
to B+

I really don't see much merit in using Jirachi in the current meta. Defensive sets are very prone to Dugtrio and, in general, don't check all that much. Calm Mind sets are also inconsistent and relatively vulnerable to Dugtrio, so that leaves us with Scarf, which I also don't see much merit as the tier is full of Iron Head resists, and U-turning around doesn't accomplish much either. A- just seems needlessly high for Jirachi, to me.
Heavily disagree with this, you're really overblowing how susceptible to dugtrio jirachi is, and underselling how good certain sets are. SubCM is a perfectly solid offensive set that circumvents dug and can shred through balanced teams like bro fist's team here, for example. Wishpass sets can use shed shell to avoid trapping, and wishpassing alone is a good enough utility with how good wish is in this metagame, not to mention it's one of few things that can hope to check offensive Kyurem as well as the newly buffed Togekiss, so it's not like there's nothing that it provides defensive utility against. Finally, mixed offensive sets can use Shuca Berry to muscle past Dugtrio and still wreck havoc against balanced and bulky offensive teams alike. Finally, you're completely forgetting the utility that scarf sets provide with Trick to cripple Corv as well as Healing Wish to provide a second chance for threats like Zeraora and SD Bisharp on LO spam-type offenses. Obviously the prevalence of Ghost- and Dark-types in this metagame is harmful for Jirachi, but it's still a very good mon that can fullfil a variety of roles.
 
Heavily disagree with this, you're really overblowing how susceptible to dugtrio jirachi is, and underselling how good certain sets are. SubCM is a perfectly solid offensive set that circumvents dug and can shred through balanced teams like bro fist's team here, for example. Wishpass sets can use shed shell to avoid trapping, and wishpassing alone is a good enough utility with how good wish is in this metagame, not to mention it's one of few things that can hope to check offensive Kyurem as well as the newly buffed Togekiss, so it's not like there's nothing that it provides defensive utility against. Finally, mixed offensive sets can use Shuca Berry to muscle past Dugtrio and still wreck havoc against balanced and bulky offensive teams alike. Finally, you're completely forgetting the utility that scarf sets provide with Trick to cripple Corv as well as Healing Wish to provide a second chance for threats like Zeraora and SD Bisharp on LO spam-type offenses. Obviously the prevalence of Ghost- and Dark-types in this metagame is harmful for Jirachi, but it's still a very good mon that can fullfil a variety of roles.
The link you posted has no jirachi lol ;-;
 

Jordy

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I strongly disagree with moving Mandibuzz down to A-.

Mandibuzz is hardly as exploitable as people like to make it out to be. Mandibuzz is one of the very few Pokemon that can consistently check Ghost-types like Dragapult and Aegislash, which is incredibly useful in this metagame. Previously, you could definitely argue that Hydreigon starting to run Draco Meteor hurt Mandibuzz's viability, but at this point, everyone has realized you should not be attempting to use Mandibuzz as a check to Nasty Plot Hydreigon, so it's really not that big of a deal.

While it's true that Mandibuzz isn't exactly the best Defogger, it is surely still decent and quite customizable when run alongside another entry hazard remover; Toxic, Taunt, and Knock Off are all very viable alternatives on teams with Pokemon like Corviknight, Rotom-H, and Excadrill.

On top of all this, I'd also like to argue that Mandibuzz isn't on the same level as Pokemon in A- like Jirachi, Togekiss, and Dracovish, while they're all good Pokemon, they're also much less splashable when compared to Mandibuzz. Putting Mandibuzz into the same rank as these Pokemon, when it in truth is as splashable and useful as other Pokemon in A like Ferrothorn and Seismitoad, simply doesn't sit right with me.
 
I strongly disagree with moving Mandibuzz down to A-.

Mandibuzz is hardly as exploitable as people like to make it out to be. Mandibuzz is one of the very few Pokemon that can consistently check Ghost-types like Dragapult and Aegislash, which is incredibly useful in this metagame. Previously, you could definitely argue that Hydreigon starting to run Draco Meteor hurt Mandibuzz's viability, but at this point, everyone has realized you should not be attempting to use Mandibuzz as a check to Nasty Plot Hydreigon, so it's really not that big of a deal.

While it's true that Mandibuzz isn't exactly the best Defogger, it is surely still decent and quite customizable when run alongside another entry hazard remover; Toxic, Taunt, and Knock Off are all very viable alternatives on teams with Pokemon like Corviknight, Rotom-H, and Excadrill.

On top of all this, I'd also like to argue that Mandibuzz isn't on the same level as Pokemon in A- like Jirachi, Togekiss, and Dracovish, while they're all good Pokemon, they're also much less splashable when compared to Mandibuzz. Putting Mandibuzz into the same rank as these Pokemon, when it in truth is as splashable and useful as other Pokemon in A like Ferrothorn and Seismitoad, simply doesn't sit right with me.
I also don’t agree with moving Mandibuzz A- but it definitely isnt as good as it was. One of the Pokémon it exists to just take a fat dump on (Aegislash) can potentially predict it with toxic and it’s cucked. He is pressured to switch after that, so you can U out and get momentum but he can make a cheeky play and stay in predicting the U and toxic another one of your mons too.

It still counters Aegislash but it’s no longer a huge, clear cut advantage and the other player has some opportunity to outplay and at least take toxicing your defogger as a consolation prize.
 
I strongly disagree with moving Mandibuzz down to A-.

Mandibuzz is hardly as exploitable as people like to make it out to be. Mandibuzz is one of the very few Pokemon that can consistently check Ghost-types like Dragapult and Aegislash, which is incredibly useful in this metagame. Previously, you could definitely argue that Hydreigon starting to run Draco Meteor hurt Mandibuzz's viability, but at this point, everyone has realized you should not be attempting to use Mandibuzz as a check to Nasty Plot Hydreigon, so it's really not that big of a deal.

While it's true that Mandibuzz isn't exactly the best Defogger, it is surely still decent and quite customizable when run alongside another entry hazard remover; Toxic, Taunt, and Knock Off are all very viable alternatives on teams with Pokemon like Corviknight, Rotom-H, and Excadrill.

On top of all this, I'd also like to argue that Mandibuzz isn't on the same level as Pokemon in A- like Jirachi, Togekiss, and Dracovish, while they're all good Pokemon, they're also much less splashable when compared to Mandibuzz. Putting Mandibuzz into the same rank as these Pokemon, when it in truth is as splashable and useful as other Pokemon in A like Ferrothorn and Seismitoad, simply doesn't sit right with me.
I agree that mandibuzz is better on practice than on paper, but aegislash got access to steel beam with the new gen. it's true that not all aegislash do use specs and/or decide to go for steel beam as their 4th move, but still it hits for a fuckton (70-82% vs max spdef) and makes mandibuzz a terrible check to this set. And I still think that specs aegi is its strongest set.
 

Jordy

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I agree that mandibuzz is better on practice than on paper, but aegislash got access to steel beam with the new gen. it's true that not all aegislash do use specs and/or decide to go for steel beam as their 4th move, but still it hits for a fuckton (70-82% vs max spdef) and makes mandibuzz a terrible check to this set. And I still think that specs aegi is its strongest set.
It's a fine check provided you just run enough Speed for neutral nature Aegislash.
 

Ausma

Bonafide Monafide!
is a Pre-Contributor
:sm/primarina:
B --> B+
Primarina has an incredibly potent niche in the OU metagame with the removal of Azumarill giving its Water/Fairy type a unique status offensively/defensively. Additionally, its new access to Calm Mind pushes it from just being a cut and dry choice user into an extremely consistent, potent wincon against balance and defensive teams alike. Thanks to its gargantuan 126 SpAtk in combination with its fantastic, unique dual STABs, it doesn't even need many CM boosts to start prying apart balance and stall. Not only is it a fantastic CM user offensively, but thanks to its typing being fantastic defensively as well, in conjunction with its already solid bulk, it can boost relatively easily. This gives Primarina the ability to switch in with little to no consequence from most variants of Non-Toxic Toxapex, Non-Power Whip Ferrothorn, Corviknight, and Keldeo. Additionally, against many of its switchins, it is able to set up a Substitute with its incredible bulk and maintain it in most circumstances. Torrent is also extremely useful on Substitute variants that allow it to control its amount of remaining HP, letting Surf/Sparkling Aria net important KOs/damage that it wouldn't be able to get otherwise. In general, the discussion of SubCM's proficiency makes me believe Primarina deserves a spot higher, especially with how consistent of a wincon it's been for my 1700 elo (give or take) ladder games.

This isn't mentioning its Specs variant, which is a very potent breaker, especially on Rain squads. Its main niche over Keldeo is its easier time getting in, as well as having access to powerful Fairy STAB which is incredibly useful to have against the many Water immunities/resists that are in the tier. Things like Seismitoad that would otherwise switch on its Hydro Pumps are cleaved apart by STAB Moonblast; it even has useful coverage in Psychic and Energy Ball, which is yet another edge over Keldeo.

Overall, I do believe Primarina is slightly underrated, because it is a consistent threat with a solid niche. However, despite these great attributes, it's worth noting that it has some pretty bad flaws. Not only does it lack recovery outside of Leftovers, but without physical defense investment, it is easily broken apart by many of the physical behemoths in the tier, and its speed tier is atrocious given what threatens it. These problems merit why I only suggest B+ as opposed to any of the A's. That being said, it's a strong wincon, but it requires team support to fully succeed, whereas many of the A tier Pokemon can function as independent components.

Other noms I want to address:

Mandi drop
: I hard disagree with this. As Jordy said, Mandibuzz has a valuable defensive typing that lets it more consistently check Dragapult/Aegislash, as well as unique utility options of its own that it has over Corviknight. I won't address this much, because Jordy already explained it much better than I could.

Jirachi drop:
Also disagree here. Compressing a Clefable check as well as a Rocker/Pivot is an incredibly relevant niche, and its scarf sets are also just as potent on top of having access to Healing Wish, which is a huge option at the moment with the many breakers/bulky mons in the tier that love to stay healthy. Plus, SubCM is just as terrifying as a wincon.

Mew rise:
Do agree here. I don't believe Mew is warranted to be a top tier (or even high tier) Pokemon by any means, but the ability to run literally any kind of set (and with resounding coverage) is absolutely insane, and an underrated pick that can pry apart a team if you telegraph its set wrong. Home has also graced it with reliable recovery on top of Defog access again, so, I don't see any reason it shouldn't be a tier higher. Though, that's probably the most that can be said, since its defensive typing is abysmal, and it's startlingly weak without any item, making it inconsistent on both ends of the spectrum.

Hippo rise:
Agreed. Despite being broken to sandy bits by Zeraora's Grass Knot, the fact it's such a consistent physical switchin and can not only set hazards, but set Sandstorm, heal, and Toxic defensive switchins gives it a really solid niche that I don't think is deserving of B+.

Durant rise
: I remember making a post about this monster a while back, and while I don't think it's as good as it used to be now that mons that resist First Impression are much more ubiquitous, its speed tier is currently very valuable, as well as its Steel STAB. I believe instead of C+ like I originally suggested, it's more of a C tier mon now.
 
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Cinderace B-->B+

I feel like cinderace is a little underrated at B, I've been using him with a lot of success in the post-home meta. Cinderace gives a lot of utility to teams right now as both an anti-meta check to a lot of the top defensive mons and as a solid blanket check to all of the hyper offensive teams that are still running around.
I've been using this set which I think is the best set for it right now, I think that the standard set with HJK over sucker punch is significantly worse, you gain mediocre breaking potential at the expense of being one of the best cleaners in OU.

Cinderace @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Pyro Ball
- Sucker Punch
- U-turn
- Court Change

With this set you beat clef, corvi, and aegi, and you reveng kill Pult, Gengar, conk etc after some chip. In addition I think that wish+boots makes cinderace really hard to chip so you can usually take a hit from anything you don't normally outspeed (notably zeraora) and KO back with pyro into sucker. Generally with a decent matchup cinderace will come in, spook out all of the fairies and steel types and U-turn around early game until you wittle down their toad or hippo until you 2hko everything with pyro ball and force a kill. Eventually it comes down to a wittled down pult and a clef or something and you clean sweep. In a normal game vs balance or bulky offense Cinderace functions as a high utility cleaner with a pretty high powered stab.

In a game vs any offense however, Cinderace really shines in this meta. One of the common complaints I hear is that court change is pretty bad vs standard balance stealth rockers, but I feel like they miss the point of the set. Court change is incredibly effective vs no brain HO webs and screens, especially with boots ignoring webs. Cinderace threatens out all the aurora veilers, most of the webs setters barring Araquanid, and it doesn't care particularly about grimmsnarl after court changing the screens to their side. Vs Sun you can tank most hits from the Venu and KO back with sun boosted pyro ball, or do a shitload to a switch as they lose their growth boost. Against other set up sweeper types of HO builds Cinderace is a decent blanket check to the various set up sweepers, gengar, hydrei, etc after some chip.

Cinderace functions as the 2nd best No-BS mon in the tier after Scarf-Pult imo, and the reliability makes it really nice to build with. I think the usage stats alone demonstrate how useful this thing is as a general glue mon. I realize usage alone isn't enough to justify tiering but its still used way more than stuff like TTar, Rotom-W, Gengar, Hatt etc even in higher ladder because it patches up lot of teams and does well vs common mons.

some replays
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1071586654
vs shell smash veil BS
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1071122082
vs Sun
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1070262862
vs Zeraora pult balance

I think cinderace still has significant matchup issues like Pex and Duggy, and the power can be lacking at times, but I think he's such a good cleaner and utility mon that B is too low.
 
:conkeldurr: A -> A+
Conkeldurr is definitely one of the looked at Pokemon right now. It's new access to Knock Off gives it better coverage and many teams will have trouble switching into its moves. It makes up for its 40 base speed with Mach Punch and also uses a form of recovery with Drain Punch to last longer in battle. Pair it with some good teammates and Conkeldurr can switch in and break any unprepared teams. There should always be a way to deal with Conkeldurr in teams.
Definitely agree with Conk to A+, I've won entire matchups with just Conk sweeping 6 mons. It can break Corvi if it's boosted up beforehand and can knock off Clefable on the switch in since that's usually the only check on Conk. I've even seen an AVest set with Poison Jab take care of Clefable. Toxapex and Conk just stall each other out (unless you are foolish enough to let it get toxic poisoned before burned). The only thing it can't really touch is Togekiss, but I don't see that many Togekiss out there, and again it can Knock off Togekiss on switch. If you don't have a check for Conk then you will almost automatically lose if it's on the other team.

If this thing was ranked S Rank I wouldn't even argue with it, but A+ is probably where it belongs. Unless Tapu Lele comes back to the metagame I see this thing just crushing everything for the time being.
 
Cinderace B-->B+

I feel like cinderace is a little underrated at B, I've been using him with a lot of success in the post-home meta. Cinderace gives a lot of utility to teams right now as both an anti-meta check to a lot of the top defensive mons and as a solid blanket check to all of the hyper offensive teams that are still running around.
I've been using this set which I think is the best set for it right now, I think that the standard set with HJK over sucker punch is significantly worse, you gain mediocre breaking potential at the expense of being one of the best cleaners in OU.

Cinderace @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Pyro Ball
- Sucker Punch
- U-turn
- Court Change

With this set you beat clef, corvi, and aegi, and you reveng kill Pult, Gengar, conk etc after some chip. In addition I think that wish+boots makes cinderace really hard to chip so you can usually take a hit from anything you don't normally outspeed (notably zeraora) and KO back with pyro into sucker. Generally with a decent matchup cinderace will come in, spook out all of the fairies and steel types and U-turn around early game until you wittle down their toad or hippo until you 2hko everything with pyro ball and force a kill. Eventually it comes down to a wittled down pult and a clef or something and you clean sweep. In a normal game vs balance or bulky offense Cinderace functions as a high utility cleaner with a pretty high powered stab.

In a game vs any offense however, Cinderace really shines in this meta. One of the common complaints I hear is that court change is pretty bad vs standard balance stealth rockers, but I feel like they miss the point of the set. Court change is incredibly effective vs no brain HO webs and screens, especially with boots ignoring webs. Cinderace threatens out all the aurora veilers, most of the webs setters barring Araquanid, and it doesn't care particularly about grimmsnarl after court changing the screens to their side. Vs Sun you can tank most hits from the Venu and KO back with sun boosted pyro ball, or do a shitload to a switch as they lose their growth boost. Against other set up sweeper types of HO builds Cinderace is a decent blanket check to the various set up sweepers, gengar, hydrei, etc after some chip.

Cinderace functions as the 2nd best No-BS mon in the tier after Scarf-Pult imo, and the reliability makes it really nice to build with. I think the usage stats alone demonstrate how useful this thing is as a general glue mon. I realize usage alone isn't enough to justify tiering but its still used way more than stuff like TTar, Rotom-W, Gengar, Hatt etc even in higher ladder because it patches up lot of teams and does well vs common mons.

some replays
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1071586654
vs shell smash veil BS
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1071122082
vs Sun
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1070262862
vs Zeraora pult balance

I think cinderace still has significant matchup issues like Pex and Duggy, and the power can be lacking at times, but I think he's such a good cleaner and utility mon that B is too low.
Your cinderace literally did nothing but get one shot by darmanitan in that sun replay you posted.
 
Cinderace B-->B+

I feel like cinderace is a little underrated at B, I've been using him with a lot of success in the post-home meta. Cinderace gives a lot of utility to teams right now as both an anti-meta check to a lot of the top defensive mons and as a solid blanket check to all of the hyper offensive teams that are still running around.
I've been using this set which I think is the best set for it right now, I think that the standard set with HJK over sucker punch is significantly worse, you gain mediocre breaking potential at the expense of being one of the best cleaners in OU.

Cinderace @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Pyro Ball
- Sucker Punch
- U-turn
- Court Change

With this set you beat clef, corvi, and aegi, and you reveng kill Pult, Gengar, conk etc after some chip. In addition I think that wish+boots makes cinderace really hard to chip so you can usually take a hit from anything you don't normally outspeed (notably zeraora) and KO back with pyro into sucker. Generally with a decent matchup cinderace will come in, spook out all of the fairies and steel types and U-turn around early game until you wittle down their toad or hippo until you 2hko everything with pyro ball and force a kill. Eventually it comes down to a wittled down pult and a clef or something and you clean sweep. In a normal game vs balance or bulky offense Cinderace functions as a high utility cleaner with a pretty high powered stab.

In a game vs any offense however, Cinderace really shines in this meta. One of the common complaints I hear is that court change is pretty bad vs standard balance stealth rockers, but I feel like they miss the point of the set. Court change is incredibly effective vs no brain HO webs and screens, especially with boots ignoring webs. Cinderace threatens out all the aurora veilers, most of the webs setters barring Araquanid, and it doesn't care particularly about grimmsnarl after court changing the screens to their side. Vs Sun you can tank most hits from the Venu and KO back with sun boosted pyro ball, or do a shitload to a switch as they lose their growth boost. Against other set up sweeper types of HO builds Cinderace is a decent blanket check to the various set up sweepers, gengar, hydrei, etc after some chip.

Cinderace functions as the 2nd best No-BS mon in the tier after Scarf-Pult imo, and the reliability makes it really nice to build with. I think the usage stats alone demonstrate how useful this thing is as a general glue mon. I realize usage alone isn't enough to justify tiering but its still used way more than stuff like TTar, Rotom-W, Gengar, Hatt etc even in higher ladder because it patches up lot of teams and does well vs common mons.

some replays
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1071586654
vs shell smash veil BS
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1071122082
vs Sun
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1070262862
vs Zeraora pult balance

I think cinderace still has significant matchup issues like Pex and Duggy, and the power can be lacking at times, but I think he's such a good cleaner and utility mon that B is too low.
Actually without taunt or a crit Cinderace isn't able to threatened physdef whishport clefable and is prone to get trapped by duggy thanks to port also with how infested the meta is with pex/clef/komm-o /hippo bulky balance shit I can't see Cinderace rising up in ranks without mentioning how easy removing rocks in gen 8 thanks to stuff like corv

Edit : clef often carries knock off so switching into it to get hdb knocked is terrible.
 
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