Resource SS UU Crown Tundra Viability Ranking Thread

Expulso

Morse code, if I'm talking I'm clicking
is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Social Media Contributor Alumnus
B+ tier. Can you really tell me that Chansey, Reuniclus, and Jirachi are on the same level as Bulu? Bulu is just better then almost everything else in the tier.
Yes. Chansey is significantly better. Rachi is, in my eyes, slightly better; i think the majority (who are rachi haters) would put it at the same level as bulu.

but FINE if i cant do a one liner here goes: Bulu is considered to be extremely bad in tournament play because multiple hard checks / counters find its way onto nearly every team.
- Steel type: resists Grass, on nearly every team, Bulu can't do much back except for CC
- Salamence/Vern/Moltres: Grass quad resists, Bulu can't do much back except Edge
- Grass types (Tang/Amoong): resist Grass, Bulu can't do much back except Megahorn

A team will VERY commonly have all three of those, if not other very solid checks on top of that. Take, for instance, a core like Aegislash / Salamence / Amoonguss / Rotom-Heat; what is Bulu going to do that game? I didn't just make up an example to make bulu look as bad as possible, either; I've built and seen multiple teams that run those cores very naturally for reasons completely independent of Bulu's existence (as a bad mon)

Sure, it has coverage that can hit them, but the overlapping of resists means that CB Bulu is not going to do much without absolutely PERFECT prediction (and even then amoong/aegi pivot in super reliably). In addition, many of these resists are faster and threaten an OHKO, preventing it from reliably breaking through cores with SD.
====

Unless it is scarf, its speed tier means that Bulu is not doing anything much against offensive teams. Even if it is Scarf Bulu, you fail to revenge sweepers like Gyarados, DD Mence, and Clangorous Soul / Scale Shot Kommo-O due to your poor speed tier.

====
Finally, Bulu lacks the natural bulk to handle Keld / Prim / etc without the AV you mentioned. Even if it is AV, though, the Regen grasses have much greater staying power and outclass Bulu at that role. AV Bulu is worn down by hazards + switching into those attacks in a way that Tang/Amoong are not.

====
TL:DR; Tapu Bulu is:
- outclassed in its role as a defensive grass-type
- unable to break through defensive cores as an offensive threat due to the common-ness of multiple grass resists on a team, many of which outspeed it and force it out
- rendered near-useless versus offensive teams bc of its low speed tier for an offensive mon
 
Finally, Bulu lacks the natural bulk to handle Keld / Prim / etc without the AV you mentioned. Even if it is AV, though, the Regen grasses have much greater staying power and outclass Bulu at that role. AV Bulu is worn down by hazards + switching into those attacks in a way that Tang/Amoong are not.
No? Like I don't know what to say to this you're just wrong. To 252 hp 0 spe def Bulu, specs Keldeo air slash does a maximum of 87.3% so it will never kill with rocks. Factoring in flinch chance, that's a 30% chance to win and if you don't get flinched you regain lost health because of horn leech while OHKOing. So if you want to stay in and risk your Keldeo on a 30% chance, then be my guest. Moonblast from specs Prim maxes out at 90% damage, so it would kill after SR 12.5% of the time, but Bulu puts in enough speed that it will always outspeed, so even if you switch it in, it can absolutely handle Prim. For assault vest, It takes pittance from their absolute best move to be locked into, and threatens a guaranteed OHKO back that will heal any damage taken.

I can't speak on tournament play, as I haven't been in a UU tournament, but I definitely can on Bulu. And my man, you are clearly in the opposite situation.

- Steel type: resists Grass, on nearly every team, Bulu can't do much back except for CC
- Salamence/Vern/Moltres: Grass quad resists, Bulu can't do much back except Edge
- Grass types (Tang/Amoong): resist Grass, Bulu can't do much back except Megahorn
This is a pretty silly argument. So basically, you mean that Tapu bulu can't do anything to the types that resist grass other then use the coverage move put on specifically for the types that resist grass? Like wow, you got me, Bulu has to use coverage moves. Guess the set is invalid now.

Unless it is scarf, its speed tier means that Bulu is not doing anything much against offensive teams. Even if it is Scarf Bulu, you fail to revenge sweepers like Gyarados, DD Mence, and Clangorous Soul / Scale Shot Kommo-O due to your poor speed tier.
You realize Bulu is bulky, right? I don't mean to be patronizing, but you act like Bulu can't take hits. He works against offensive team because they aren't going to reasonably pack more then 1 potential switch in, and he's bulky enough to take hits from them. He's not Buzzwole. He can take special hits.

Aegislash / Salamence / Amoonguss / Rotom-Heat
Aegislash is 2HKOed by wood hammer and high horsepower while being slower, defensive mence is 2HKOed by a -1 Stone edge on the switch and can't kill with dual wing beat, Rotom Heat is just straight up OHKOed by Stone edge, and Amoonguss is 2HKOed by Zen Headbutt and is slower. Obviously, that takes prediction, but you gave the literal worst case scenario for Bulu. The point is that Bandulu has no counters, and getting a free switch is usually just a free kill.

(as a bad mon)
Dude, that's just dumb. I don't mean to be rude, I'm not calling you dumb, but I really can't say anything else to that.


Anyways, there's more I could say, but talking about Bulu so much in such a short time is wearing me out. A man can only take so much raw chad energy before you got to take a break.
 
Bulu is dog shit. Jesus christ it has a severe 4MSS of zen headbutt, stone edge, megahorn, high horsepower, if ur not running zen, ur walled by amoonguss, buzzwole, and kommo-o, if ur not stone edge you are absolutely destroyed by moltres, salamence, and rotom-heat, and if you are not megahorn say hi to tangrowth and mew for me and tell me how you are doing. If ur banded ur not recovering vs shit like specs keldeo, crawdaunt, and thundurus-t/thundy-i. Pokemon that it should handle it does not because its sole reliable recovery is synthesis and its only 8PP. Bulu is just outclassed by grasses offensively by zarude, and defensively by amoonguss, and tangrowth which have reliable recovery in regenerator. Bulu also gets crippled by flame body moltres, helmet moonguss, kommo-o, buzzwole, and tangrowth by using its stabs. It does not have a secondary stab to back it up and it gets beaten by the best pokemon in the tier such as scizor, kommo-o, mew, salamence, and cannot switch in on most resist even such as primarina, rotom-wash, krookidile because it is worn down via scald, hazards, status by rotom-wash, rhyperior, and seismitoad, and being burned ruins it. Horn leech as sole recovery on SD sets just make it getting worn down so easily because its not recovering while taking rocks, helmet, and resist moves.
 

Lily

i'm what you get when the stars collide
is a Tutoris a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a member of the Battle Simulator Staff
UU Leader
Alright, here with a controversial take that shouldn't be remotely controversial but here we go. This will probably be a lot of jumbled 2am thoughts but I've been explaining this in the UU cord anyway.

Keldeo should drop to A+ and Primarina should rise to S. I strongly believe Primarina is the best Pokemon in the tier and here's why.

As a pure wallbreaker, Primarina outclasse Keldeo. Like, massively. It absolutely obliterates Keldeo counterplay in AV Tang, Amoonguss, and Mantine - Moonblast is just so punishing to switch into when backed by the possibility of a ludicrously powerful Hydro Pump. For reference, Primarina always 2HKOs AV Tang with Moonblast w/ Stealth Rock (and quite often without!). You might be thinking, "but Lily! Keldeo 2HKOs it with Secret Sword!" and yeah it does but that's the thing, Secret Sword is SO easy to punish it's unreal. Things like Salamence, Noivern, Mew and Sylveon just chew it up with ease, but Moonblast slams them, so pivoting around it is way harder. And yes, there are Moonblast pivots - you can scout with Tangrowth and go into your Scizor, right? Well yeah, until y'know...
252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 150-177 (43.6 - 51.4%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

So yeah. Specs Prim good.

Now on to CM, where Prim once again puts Keldeo to shame. Prim's amazing typing, bulk, and access to Draining Kiss make it an insanely potent win condition that also serves a valuable defensive role, being a strong counter to the likes of Salamence, Noivern, and opposing Keldeo. I've been using this set:

Primarina @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 32 Def / 224 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Scald
- Draining Kiss
- Subsitute

The spdef maximises your odds of Tangrowth and Amoonguss being unable to break your sub at +1 (your sub only breaks 6% of the time) while retaining some physical bulk for stray Secret Swords or whatever.

This set has great odds to snowball most games because of how easily it flips typical counterplay on its head. Walling the grasses, fishing for Scald burns and recovering tons with Draining Kiss are very useful ways to set up your own sleep later, which Keldeo can't really do without niche sets that aren't even effective (cm ebelt) or winning Spore 50/50s. This is the most potent win condition in the entire tier to me, maybe second to sd sciz.

And then there's RestTalk-

Primarina @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 136 Def / 120 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Moonblast
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

This set is incredible. It invalidates Keldeo, Mence, Noiv, Kommo-o, Moltres, Buzzwole and more, and is incredibly punishing to switch into. It's such a good glue for so many teams because of how hard it is to take down, and its ability to take on annoying Dragons and Keldeo frees up other options (not using grasses) a lot more effectively which leads to some really cool teams. Here's one such team I've been mucking around with that uses it.

Keldeo does have a lot going for it of course. Its speed is great for handling Thundy-T and Nidoqueen, it's not invalidated by Chansey, and it's a much better Scizor check, but I think Keldeo being moved up to S was a kneejerk reaction by the VR team, myself included. It's just not as dominant as it was predicted to be because of how limiting its stab moves are to click. That said, I think Primarina is the best Pokemon in the tier due to its ludicrous wallbreaking potential in addition to the multitude of defensive purposes it serves, and it should share a place in S with Scizor.

As a bonus, here's a replay of me in Open clicking Moonblast a lot, even against a team that should be pretty solid against Prim. Try out this nuke and I promise you'll get it.
 
As a bonus, here's a replay of me in Open clicking Moonblast a lot, even against a team that should be pretty solid against Prim. Try out this nuke and I promise you'll get it.
I'm not a UU player so I don't really have an opinion on this nomination, but I don't think this is the best replay to show off since you got two pretty important crits vs Slowbro and Tangrowth, both of which mattered to some extent since Primarina has a low chance of 2HKOing them.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 248+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 183-216 (45.2 - 53.4%) -- 34.8% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro-Galar: 167-197 (42.3 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

Granted, they wouldn't have OHKO'd back, but they could done a sizable amount of damage w/ Giga Drain / Sludge Bomb letting Scizor / Lycanroc revenge kill it.
 

Expulso

Morse code, if I'm talking I'm clicking
is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Social Media Contributor Alumnus
No? Like I don't know what to say to this you're just wrong. To 252 hp 0 spe def Bulu, specs Keldeo air slash does a maximum of 87.3% so it will never kill with rocks. Factoring in flinch chance, that's a 30% chance to win and if you don't get flinched you regain lost health because of horn leech while OHKOing. So if you want to stay in and risk your Keldeo on a 30% chance, then be my guest. Moonblast from specs Prim maxes out at 90% damage, so it would kill after SR 12.5% of the time, but Bulu puts in enough speed that it will always outspeed, so even if you switch it in, it can absolutely handle Prim.
The scenario you mention where Bulu gets back all its health via horn leech wouldn't happen; the player with the water type attacks you once, switches out, and then you can't switch Bulu in directly or it is 2HKOed. The other defensive grasses have Regenerator, so if I switch them into, say, Specs Prim's Moonblast once, I can switch out, get some HP back, and then continue to switch into it instead of being 2HKOd by Hydro Pump next time I try to come in.

This is a pretty silly argument. So basically, you mean that Tapu bulu can't do anything to the types that resist grass other then use the coverage move put on specifically for the types that resist grass? Like wow, you got me, Bulu has to use coverage moves. Guess the set is invalid now.
No, the issue is that you can't hit them all with the same coverage move. Since most teams have multiple grass-type switch ins, you need to win the guessing game around which of the 3 coverage moves to lock into -- otherwise the Bulu will be walled. I agree that Bulu has good coverage, but it is too reliant on perfect prediction to reliably break with that coverage.

The point is that Bandulu has no counters, and getting a free switch is usually just a free kill.
This seems to be the center of our disagreement; getting a free switchin in with CB Bulu isn't a guaranteed kill at all, since most opponents have multiple pivots with non-overlapping weaknesses. In other words, you need ZHB to get the "free kill" (it does 73% max) vs their Amoonguss switch-in, Stone Edge to get the free kill vs Moltres, Megahorn for Tangrowth, CC for Steels, and so on. You need to not only run the right moves but perfectly predict on the switch with CB Bulu, since clicking any of the other moves versus those mons will result in negative progress being made. It'll only ever be a free kill if you predict correctly... but that is a necessary yet not sufficient condition, since often that prediction will not result in an OHKO (see: Amoong living ZHB, Mence living Stone Edge, Scizor living any one hit).
 

Lily

i'm what you get when the stars collide
is a Tutoris a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a member of the Battle Simulator Staff
UU Leader
I'm not a UU player so I don't really have an opinion on this nomination, but I don't think this is the best replay to show off since you got two pretty important crits vs Slowbro and Tangrowth, both of which mattered to some extent since Primarina has a low chance of 2HKOing them.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 248+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 183-216 (45.2 - 53.4%) -- 34.8% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro-Galar: 167-197 (42.3 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

Granted, they wouldn't have OHKO'd back, but they could done a sizable amount of damage w/ Giga Drain / Sludge Bomb letting Scizor / Lycanroc revenge kill it.
the point wasn't to actually support the nomination really, I did say it was a bonus. in addition, the tang roll was 53 even w/o the crit so it was highly favourable it fainted next turn, and the slowbro was pretty much forced to slack off, and with Moonblast pp factored in it would've lost all of them pretty fast.

if you would like some replays of prim doing prim things I can get those. they've been seen by the vr team anyway and I didn't wanna get them at 2am on phone. there aren't many tournament games in this new post-shifts meta where Prim is thriving, particularly since those who play in open like to hide their replays, but here is a cool one from earlier in UUPL -
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8uu-545968

and if needed I'll edit more into my nomination tomorrow once I've asked around. apologies if this came off as "look I can crit through glowbro" but I thought I made it clear that I really did just include that replay for fun.
 
Aegislash is actually better now, due to the rise of buzzwole which wrecks scizor with cc, and sets up on it via bulk up, aegislash is having none of that with specs shadow ball which I think is a huge point in favor for aegislash. Sub toxic also gives buzzwole a hard time with king shield and toxic, and Shadow ball 2hko'ing even without specs.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Both Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Buzzwole: 378-445 (90.4 - 106.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Aegislash-Both Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Buzzwole: 252-297 (60.2 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Buzzwole Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Both: 190-224 (72.7 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Buzzwole Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Both: 190-224 (58.6 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Aegislash also does not fear moltres as much as scizor as scizor has to contend with flame body burns while aegislash can either specs shadow ball it or toxic + king shield to wittle it down.
 

KM

slayification
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
Here's my thoughts on the discussion points and a few extra noms to get us back on track!



Primarina A -> A+: AGREE

I generally ascribe to the Lily school of thought where prim is one of the premier threats in the tier. specs is probably the best special wallbreaker we have, and sub cm/cm rest sets are just as deadly. i think the biggest thing upping prims viability right now is that it's a keldeo check that isn't at all bad in non keldeo matchups. so many times, it feels terrible to run things like mantine and seismitoad (and to a much lesser extent, av tang) when you don't run into keldeo -- with primarina, checking keldeo is almost a bonus. also, prim is easily the most viable fairy in the tier -- and fairy-typing got a lot more valuable due to the steel exodus the shifts brought us. truthfully, i wouldn't even be that opposed to a push to S-, but i think A+ is fair at the very least.



Rhyperior A- -> A: AGREE

Rhyperior is such a solid rocker for most teams -- and it only got better with increased usage of mons like Moltres and Rotom-H. Toxic variants of these mons often get cited as a reason rhyperior isn't that good, but fitting toxic on those mons isn't the easiest and I think it speaks more to Rhyperior's impact in the tier than anything else. besides, as crippling as toxic is on a mon with no inherent recovery, it also doesn't prevent rhyperior from doing what it does best -- absorbing a few hits, guaranteeing rocks by threatening most every defogger, and threatening to blow holes into the opposing team.



Reuniclus B+ -> B: DISAGREE

AV Reuni is good enough to keep it in B+, honestly. While the Keldeo hype may have been a little overzealous, it's still a fantastic choice and the best replacement we have for a Slowking-type role. AV Reuni has showed its worth in several tour matches, and I think it's still quite underexplored.



Milotic B -> B+: DISAGREE FOR NOW

I love using Milotic, and I think it's definitely a strong choice in this metagame -- but I think we need more time and usage to see how it really fares against the tier. I think the rise of pokemon like Primarina, Diggersby, PW Tangrowth, and more all make it a little tricky to be as good in practice as it is in theory, but I can definitely see myself changing my mind on this in a week or two.



Obstagoon B -> B+: DISAGREE

Again, I love goon -- most recently, Pannuracotta and I (but mostly pannu) built a double guts team with goon and conk, and it performed super well. That said, goon seems less like an inherently great pokemon right now and more a reaction to trends like Mew that still requires significant support to make successful. There's also some awkwardness around building with it -- it can be hard to fit and has some anti-synergy with things like heal bell.



Necrozma B -> B-/C+: STRONG DISAGREE

Necrozma got better with the shifts -- I find it hard to believe that necrozma is somehow less good in a tier without Alakazam, Zeraora, Bisharp, and steel-types that can wall it -- and most notably Slowking, which singlehandedly prevented a lot of boosting sets from being good at all. DD sets can now explore Earthquake without worrying about being walled by Skarmory, Photon / Heat Wave became better coverage, and the speed tier falling means spreads can afford to be more defensive or invest more into Atk/SpA. Necrozma is definitely underexplored right now, so I wouldn't advocate for a raise, but I don't think it deserves to fall at all.



Metagross UR -> C: AGREE

Metagross was one of the first things I tried after the shifts -- and I've been meaning to try more as well. I think the WP rock polish set is kinda bad, honestly, but the real star for me is band. With Skarm, Zone, and Slowking leaving the tier, the amount of viable Steel+Psychic resists has plummeted, allowing band to reliably tear through teams. The only Pokemon left that resists these are Scizor, Aegi, Celesteela, Rachi, Incineroar, and Staktaka -- most of those get heavily chunked by EQ, and really aeig done that nasty. Definitely worth trying, and there's probably other viable sets that haven't been looked at as well! (return of demongross????? probably not)


Now for some nominations / outside discussion points!

:ss/mienshao: B- -> B+

LO Regen Mienshao is such a huge threat right now! It's a phenomenal wallbreaker that also doesn't wear itself down -- some metagame shifts that have really helped it are the overall slowing of the metagame, Terrakion leaving, all the psychic types leaving, and access to stone edge to threaten Moltres. It also plays really well into the huge spike in Mew usage -- while it can't OHKO it outright, its ability to retain momentum while doing over 50% with a uturn or 70% with a non-colbur knock off makes it much more easy to wear down.

Other mienshao sets are good right now as well -- scarf Mien outspeeds the whole tier in a way it didn't before, band mienshao is still a great kaboom pow mon, and AV is actually not as trash as you'd think! All in all, definitely a super solid and threatening mon right now that deserves to be shifted up.

:ss/keldeo: S -> S- / A+

I was one of the strongest keldeo hypers in the beginning of the shifts, but ultimately I think we may have gone a little far with how centralizing we thought it'd be. It's certainly super strong and a great role compression of strong offensive mon + speed control in an otherwise slow tier, but many of its strongest checks (primarina, tangrowth, thundurus) are extremely viable in their own right. While Keldeo is definitely one of the first things I think about when building nowadays, it also often requires support in order to be as deadly as it can be.

:ss/nidoqueen: A -> A-

Nidoqueen being the same rank as Krook and Rhyperior (potentially) doesn't feel right to me -- in my eyes, those two are clearly about as good as each other in different roles, and Nidoqueen is significantly worse. While it definitely fits a different role, and has usage outside of its Stealth Rock Set (I've been using scarf a lot recently and love it!), I don't think it's on the same level as other mons in this tier.

:ss/tornadus: C+ -> B- / B

Tornadus has gotten so much better since the tier shift -- the exodus of steels and zeraora along with slowking and zam means it now has fewer resistances -- and the two most viable things who outsped it are now gone! Tornadus hitting 353 is a great place to be speed-wise in this meta -- it offensively checks Keldeo, Mienshao, and other fast threats, and it has phenomenal utility with Knock and U-turn. Personally, I've been running an itemless acro set with Defiant, but hurricane sets are likely just as good. It's also strong in rain, an archetype that has seen more usage and viability recently. There's also a lot of untapped potential -- I think a prankster Bulk Up set has some merits, as well as things like Tailwind 3 attacks.

That's about it from me today -- feel free to disagree or agree, but I'd love to hear discussion either way!
 
First post here! yay!

:Primarina: A -> A+: Agree

This is probably the best special wallbreaker we have in the tier, since we don't really have much Fairy resists in the tier (or they get bopped by Hydro Pump), which lets it spam it's Moonblast as long as it wants to. Some Pokémon are trouble for it, such as AV Tang, but Tang's duty is also pivoting into Keldeo, and with both spamming their STABs they can pretty much overwhelm them. Sub+CM is also a really good set, taking Primarina's longevity to the max and setting up easily on a lot of mons and with Draining Kiss recovery it can get really hard to kill.

:Reuniclus:B+ -> B: Disagree

I feel like Reuniclus really is in the shadow of AV Tang as a Keldeo Pivot, but in my opinion it's still worth a B+. Future Sight support is really valuable ever since Slowking rose to OU, even though no Teleport. CM Reuniclus is also a pretty decent wincon, beating the broken Galarian Slowbro, while still retaining some incredible offenses and bulk. Especially with our lack of Dark-types that aren't just for a specific type of team like Screens, with some good support, an Acid Armor + CM set could do well.

:Necrozma: B -> B-/C+: Disagree

Even though I haven't used Necrozma enough, It really has a lot of undiscovered potential, since we have had really good Psychics throughout the whole DLC with Latias, Victini and Alakazam. With all of these gone and a lot of good boosting moves, a lot of sets can be done, to the point where predicting which set it is can be quite complicated until they use their first move. Meteor Beam + Autotomize can be good, while a physical set with Dragon Dance and Weakness Policy can also work well too.

Personal Nominations!

:Keldeo: S -> S-

I'd say Keldeo was pretty overhyped, which doesn't mean it's bad, it can still sweep unprepared teams, but Keldeo really has a lot of counters/checks, with some of them being really popular right now, like AV Tang, Noivern, Sylveon, etc. Even though it's a really good wallbreaker, it fights for a spot as the Water-type wallbreaker with Primarina (or just use both). I feel it's better than Primarina though, mainly thanks to it actually having coverage to hit Tang hard, while also functioning as a Speed control in a tier that got really slower thanks to Zeraora's rise to OU.

:Thundurus: A -> A-

This might be an unpopular opinion, but I think Thundy-T is the better Thundurus of the two. Thundurus can really do good work of being a pivot with u-turn and as a Keldeo check thanks to its good speed tier but Thundy-T's ability to smack Tang with it's good SpA + Nasty Plot is way too good for a wallbreaker, letting Keldeo run wild if Tang really dies. And yes, while being slower than Keldeo sucks, Keldeo has a pretty decent amount of checks and counters that can fit into Thundy-T's team. All aside, Thundurus can also run a support set taking advantadge of Prankster but I still think it's not as good as its counterpart.
 
Last edited:

Monky25

is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
Moderator
Dropping a short post to reflect some new observations I've seen in this last week, this will mostly be a combination of seconding previous nominations and my own nominations.
to A-/B+: Mienshao is legit a fucking threat right now in the meta. With a high attack stat, great speed tier, and access to broken regenerator, it acts as a fast pivot without giving a damn about Life orb recoil or hazard chip. Scarf is good, but the greatest set that makes it worth A-/B+ is the Life Orb wallbreaking set. You fire off super powerful attacks while not caring about the recoil thanks to regenerator, giving it great longevity. It breaks down most of the walls in the metagame and has a super wide movepool too. Close Combat nails anything that takes neutral damage from it, with knock and u-turn helping let it pivot and cripple switch ins. Stone edge is great for moltres and mence. Furthermore, it can even run attacks like Poison jab to 2HKO the fairies or blaze kick if you REALLY hate scizor with the benefit of 2HKOing amog us after rocks. Nothing is safe, clanger is 2HKOd by CC after 1 spike layer while AV tang drops to CC. Even phys def tang drops to a CC with rocks+ prior chip. Only buzzwole is safe from this wallbreaking beast. Its unpredictability makes it even more terrifying to switch into, even if some moves aren't as desired as others. All in all, Mienshao is a great wallbreaker in the metagame right now and its current rank doesn't indicate its sheer strength and pivoting abilities, I think it could fit in A- personally but it should rise to B+ at the minimum.
to A-: An underrated wincon, I believe hatterene certainly appreciates current meta trends. It blanks all the mew utility sets and as long as hat is around spikes cannot be up, while its CM set is as great as ever, being able to win a CM war against primarina due to psyshock. It also checks top threats like clanger, salamence, buzzwole, and noiverm. It can even trade with scizor if needed at times. Hatterene is an underrated threat that certainly enjoys metagame trends currently, and it should rise a sub rank to reflect its growing viability in the current meta.
to A-: Seconding Kitten milk's nomination, Nidoqueen doesn't really fit in in A- rank. Now, don't get me wrong, nidoqueen is still very good right now. It likes the decline of milotic and only 1 pokemon in the tier doesn't get 2HKOd by it. However, that is where its pros end. Queen is slow and plenty of fast threats like thundurus, keldeo, mence, and krook absolutely nail it for super effective damage. It also faces competition as a rocker from krook and rhyperioir thanks to the formers higher speed and the latter having great bulk to take hits while dishing them in return. Looking at the A rank queen is certainly awkward, it doesn't match the versatility, breaking power, or utility any of the Pokemon there provides. Like said before, queen isn't bad, but competition from better rockers and being slow in such an offensive meta means a drop to A- is warranted for nidoqueen.
to C: Sun teams have been in a weird place for a while, they haven't really had any reliable speed control since victini got banned and zera rose. I feel darm could occupy a niche as a sun breaker with its choice scarf set. It enjoys the lack of milotic and slowking while absolutely nuking teams with flare blitz. It is able to punch holes in opposing teams alongside other breakers like chandelure for venusaur to clean up. It isn't the greatest or anything, but it fills the hole sun teams have had of strong speed control that abuses the sun, and warrants a ranking on the VR to reflect that niche.
to C/C+: Slurpuff has risen as one of the better options as a webs setter. Its ability to set webs+ block taunt and hazards with magic coat and explode with misty explosion is valuable for teams it is on. Its been showcased on the ladder a bunch and even once or twice in UUPL, so I think slurpuff certainly has a niche as a webs setter and should get ranked.
to C+: Speaking of webs, I think shuckle should drop. As mentioned earlier, slurpuff has risen as a great option on webs and is sometimes paired with offensive rocks kommo-o, making shuckle's role compression less useful. It also hates the rise of waters like keldeo and primarina to ruin its day, and its low speed is often more harmful than helpful. Lastly, look at B-. All the Pokemon there far outclass Shuckle in terms of viability as support Pokemon or as breakers. Shuckle just isn't B- material anymore and should drop a subrank to reflect that in addition to new changes in webs as an archetype, with its role compression being less desired.
- this isn't a new nomination but I want to retract my nomination in my post a week ago, I believe milotic should remain B rank. Primarina is a far better water that can check keldeo and its fairy typing+ offensive presence gives milotic a run for its money in terms of usability. Adaptations like power whip tang doesn't help milotic either. It isn't bad, but after further examination and development of the meta, milotic isn't B+ material now in my eyes.

This last part is my own mini "discussion points" where I want to hear other people's thoughts on the Pokemon if possible. I lean a certain way toward its viability but I'm not fully into it so hearing some feedback whether it is agreeing or disagreeing would be helpful. It would also be cool to see more discussion here as well.
to B-? I lean toward gastrodon in B- just because of the opportunity cost you choose to run it when there are better options. Water types like prima are better at checking keldeo while AV tang is a far more splashable option that checks stuff gastro would check like the thundurus forms and lycanroc. Other grounds like rhyperior and toad are better because they can set rocks and running gastro as your ground restricts your rocker options to what, kommo-o? Zera keaving also didnt do it favors considering it was one of the best zera answers. Gastrodon isn't bad and can put in work sometimes, but I think B- is a better fit for it just because there is a better pick for nearly all of the things it does. That being said, if there is someone who thinks gastrodon should firmly remain B id be open to hearing the reasoning behind it.
to B-? When Suicune entered the tier I thought would be very good but its just meh right now. Once it gets going its hard to stop but its hard to get going due to the abundance of grasses and electrics right now, not to mention its weird speed tier. Id rather use keldeo or primarina as an offensive water type with prima's sub cm set far outclassing suicune's while keldeo having more immediate power and speed. It has its uses like the rest variant beating SubToxic aegislash but right now I'm unsure if cune is even B material. Once again, if there is justification for cune to remain B rank id be down to hear it to better my understanding.
to B-? This one I'm much more sure about, but I'm confused as to how kiss is better than it was in the previous meta. Yeah zera is gone, but literally every electric got so much better like the rotoms, raikou, and the thundurus', hindering kiss. Scizor is still amazing and rock types like nihilego and rhypeiror are surging in viability. I brought this up in my last post but after trying out kiss I cant say its B worthy and I don't agree with how it rose in the first place. Id be interested in seeing the support or opposition to kiss as well and hopefully better understanding why kiss is where it is.

That's all for this post, hope you enjoyed giving this a read and I'll see you around!
 
Last edited:
to C: Sun teams have been in a weird place for a while, they haven't really had any reliable speed control since victini got banned and zera rose. I feel darm could occupy a niche as a sun breaker with its choice scarf set. It enjoys the lack of milotic and slowking while absolutely nuking teams with flare blitz. It is able to punch holes in opposing teams alongside other breakers like chandelure for venusaur to clean up. It isn't the greatest or anything, but it fills the hole sun teams have had of strong speed control that abuses the sun, and warrants a ranking on the VR to reflect that niche.
As the person who actually brought this up to Monky, I think not having Darmanitan on the VR's is criminal, and we must have forgotten how powerful this was in Sun before Victini was here, and forgot that it was the best option for physical Sun nuker after Victini left. There is really nothing else at all that can do this job like Darmanitan can - Incineroar and Marowak-A are too slow, and at 140 Base Attack a Sun-infused Flare Blitz just nukes anything whether it's Scarf or Band or LO:

252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo in Sun: 330-389 (102.1 - 120.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk (Scarf) Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Primarina in Sun: 258-304 (85.7 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk (Scarf) Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew in Sun: 405-477 (100.2 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It's not a premier UU threat or anything, but as long as Sun is in the tier (which it is with Torkoal/Venusaur on the VRs), then this should absolutely need to be on the VR's as well. It was C+ before Victini arrived and could possibly go right back to C+, but C is fine also, as long as it's somewhere.
 
I think I never got interested on participate on the Viability Rankings, but maybe its time I give them a try so here I am!

Discussion Points:

Primarina :primarina:
A -> A+ Agree

Like Keldeo, Primarina benefited a lot on this tier shifts due to the best pivot on the tier being a fast electric type gone, and with the popularity that Keldeo got, Primarina is one of the best answers on the tier. Primarina also has diversity of sets, RestTalk is popular as a consistent Keldeo answer but also as a check to other prominent threats like Noivern, Salamence, Komoo-o, etc, and also is a good burn spread pick with Scald. SubCM is probably my favorite one, and it is one of the reasons why Amoonguss started to get less usage due to being used as a fodder and Tangrowth started to run Power Whip instead of Giga Drain to avoit getting fodded too, also primarina doesnt care that much about Infiltrator Noivern, another point for SubCM sets. Choice Specs sets are incredible dangerous, it 2HKO almost everything w/rocks up, since Moonblast is so easy to spam, however I do not share the tought of Specs Rina being better than Specs Keldeo even if Primarina deals more damage due to being able to run a Modest Nature and having an easier stab to spam on Fairy, these are my reasons:

°Keldeo posses a really good speed tier for the metagame, making it more difficult to revenge kill, compared to the really bad speed from Primarina.

°Keldeo posses a Stealth Rock resist, being more difficult to wear it down by hazards, and also the speed tier helps here because Keldeo wont be taking extra chip from U-turn users that will try to scape like Scizor, Jirachi or Moltres, compared to Primarina who has a neutral resist to rocks + being slower than every u-turn/volt switch user in the tier wearing it down faster.

°Primarina right now is better with a defensive set in order to check..... you guesesd it? Yes Keldeo, so teams with Specs Rina are forced to run more checks to Keldeo instead of patching this problem with Primarina only.

I dont have idea who invented HDB pivot Primarina, but I havent seen that set since the shift and Im glad for that, because that set was awaful in my opinion, you are wasting both offesive and defensive atributes from Primarina, don't use this set. Anyways, agree with rising Primarina.

Rhyperior :rhyperior:
A- -> A Agree

Rhyperior was better during the Zeraora metagame, however it keeps being good right now, as it pairs pretty well with Scizor, being a fire resist that doesnt care about Moltres and Heattom existence, also a really good Flying resist (which is important on a metagame where Noivern and Salamence are prominent). I think it faces some competition with Seismitoad as a bulky Ground Type SR setter, bcz compared to toad, Rhyp dislikes Washtom and Raikou as good electric types due to the acces to water coverage + the acces to Knock Off. Rhypeior itself is pretty versatile on the last slot, Sword Dance allows u to become a potent breaker, Roar/Dragon Tail helps against HO matchups to phaze threats, Heat Crash blows Amonguss, Toxic cripples any non-amoonguss switch in, Protect to scout moves from stuff like Specs Keldeo and heal a little bit more with Leftovers. Pretty solid pick right now

Reuniclus :reuniclus:
B+ -> B
Agree
Reuniclus simply is outclassed as a bulky Psychic CM Sweeper by Glowbro, AV Regen Reuni is nice tho, but has difficult times on the actual meta, where Scizor rules the tier and also the resurge of Zarude gives it a hard time, also Aegislash has started to be more seen as the tier lacks on reliable Ghost resists, giving another pick to take in count for Reuni.

Milotic :milotic:
B -> B+
Disagree
Milotic is a cool water type pivot on the tier that is capable to sponge hits, however, a pure water typing doesn't offer so many defensive utility as other bulky water types with another type combination and movepools can offer to you, examples of this are Primarina and Mantine, who offer a Fighting resist and acces to Defog and Haze in the case of Mantine, Rotom-Wash providing Defog, a Ground inmunity, Flying resist and being able to Paralize/Burn/Intoxicate the opponent and acces to stab Volt Switch, Seismitoad who offers rocks, knock off, both water and electric inmunity, 2 inmunitys that are pretty valuable right now. Milotic has its own good atributes tho, an ok speed tier for a defensive mon, acces to Recover and an ability that if you achieve to get burned you get a free 50% extra Defense or you can also try to use it as a defog deterent with Competitive.

Obstagoon :obstagoon:
B- -> B+
Disagree
I love this mon, in fact, is one of my favorite mons that were introduced this generation with Zarude, but I dont see it making that good on the actual UU metagame. Even if Obstagoon lost its biggest check on Skarmory (unless you slaped Taunt on it), it gained a new one on Buzzwole. Goon offfensive atributes are pretty good, taking in count that there are so many teams that rely on Scizor as a normal resist (who is not a good one lol), however it gets wear down pretty fast between hazards and burn damage, and the metagame is fast and strong, there are a ton of ways to actually revenge kill it. I havent used Goon on a long time, so Im not that sure about how effective the RestTalk set is, but I guess works fine.

Necrozma :necrozma:
B -> B-/C+ Agree with B-, Disagree with C+

I really think Necrozma its unexplored as a whole. I do agreehowever that some of its sets are otclassed by other metagame staples, CM variants are outclassed by Glowbro, DD variants outclassed by Mew who has amazing coverages, better speed and better bulk in general, I do not see a real usage fro Meteor Beam variants if Celesteela has also acces to this and can make a snowball effect thanks to Beast Boost.However with the rise of Slowking, Necrozma has some interesting tricks. Mix sets with Life Orb and Moonlight look pretty good considering you can melt Scizor alive with Heat Wave, and lure on AV tang with Knock Off, SR sets look decent too, as you can slap good coverages on it. This mon has a ton of pottential so I wouldn't rank it on C+.

Metagross :metagross:
UR -> C Agree

Metagross can carve a niche on the UU metagame, it has pottential as a wallbreaker and as an utility support. It has great coverages too to make good use of offensive sets, and acces to priority Bullet Punch to patch its low speed, and Clear Body makes you inmune to Intimidate, it has flaws tho, a 4MSS, you want Earthquake for Aegislash, Rock Slide for Heattom and Moltres, Bullet Punch for priority, Thunder Punch for Celesteela/Water types. Support sets seems better tho, acces to Stealth Rock and good resistances, and compared to Scizor, this is an steel type that wont get completely blown up by fire coverage from stuff like Salamence or Hatterene, you can slap on this reductive damage berrys (idk how are they called but you get the point lol) so you can lure on your checks, or also run Toxic so you cripple most of your switch ins. We are obviusly talking about a C rank mon, as an offensive steel type faces direct competiition with Scizor who is already the best mon in the tier, and as a defensive SR setter steel type, faces competition with Cobalion and Jirachi.
 
Last edited:

UR -> C

I wanted to advocate for the puff to get ranked since its gotten a decent amount of usage as web setter in tours as of late. Slurpuff is able to be what is the best web setter right now imo with the combination of Flamethrower and Endeavor. Flamethrower is the main pro to using it over Ribombee since Scizor is a pain. Endeavor allows it to be rather annoying as well with Unburden. These offensive qualities let it outperform Shuckle, though it can't set SR without getting Magic Coat turn right. It also gets some options like Yawn to mess with. Highways vs Nat (UUPL) is a basic example of how annoying Slurpuff can be, it was also able to do its job and had the speed to get them up again if needed in my open game. Slurpuff has recently been included in Lily's Webs team (now a sample) too.
 

Hilomilo

High-low My-low
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Social Media Contributor Alumnus
Moderator
to B-? I lean toward gastrodon in B- just because of the opportunity cost you choose to run it when there are better options. Water types like prima are better at checking keldeo while AV tang is a far more splashable option that checks stuff gastro would check like the thundurus forms and lycanroc. Other grounds like rhyperior and toad are better because they can set rocks and running gastro as your ground restricts your rocker options to what, kommo-o? Zera keaving also didnt do it favors considering it was one of the best zera answers. Gastrodon isn't bad and can put in work sometimes, but I think B- is a better fit for it just because there is a better pick for nearly all of the things it does. That being said, if there is someone who thinks gastrodon should firmly remain B id be open to hearing the reasoning behind it.
I know this got buried in the thread a bit but I still wanted to briefly vouch for Gastrodon, which I absolutely don't think should drop at this stage and could even rise if anything. I definitely wish that I've had some more experience with this metagame under my belt, but I still think Gastro is really neat as arguably the best long-term check to a now realized offensive threat in Raikou. It also checks broken Glowbro, responds well to the upward trends of both Rotoms, can pivot in on draco/flame Noiverns if it's healthy, and can also even trade with Thundies/Moltres/Chandelure if you need it to. I think its splashability will always be a bit constrained by no Stealth Rock and not all of its matchups are the sturdiest, but it usually manages to perform a few important roles well when you can fit it and I don't think dropping it would be fair right now. Even smaller niches it can occupy like the ability to thwart Keldeo/Primarina from mindlessly spamming water STABs can be neat, and Scald/Toxic are always annoying to pivot into. This seems like a good fit in B to me.

As far as other points in the thread go, I'd probably keep Togekiss in B for now. It's not super explored but has some neat tricks up its sleeve like Thunder Wave really burdening a switch like Nihilego or even Babiri Berry + Flamethrower sets seeming cool for fucking Scizor up. Nidoqueen can probably drop considering it doesn't trade with as many top Pokemon as it used to and it generally dislikes the Keldeo/Mew surges, but it's still one of the scarier things in the tier to actually try coming in on especially with Chansey being kinda meh. Slurpuff and Darmanitan have definitely carved niches on their respective offensive playstyles to be worth spots at this point imo, with Slurpuff maybe even deserving a starting rank higher than C. Prima fucking rocks and should be at least A+. It fucks with all of the rising Keldeo counterplay like Noivern and AV Tang, while bulkier spreads are also really good glues that especially respond well to Keldeo's recent improvement.

stan lily btw.
 

Band

dundundudundun
is a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributor
Moderator
I'd usually do a pretty post but I don't feel like it right now, so here goes some late-night thoughts:

:primarina::rhyperior:Discussion points:reuniclus::milotic:
Primarina absolutely should be A+. Choice Specs has basically zero answers for reasons Lily said since you punish every form of Keldeo switch-in with Moonblast or Psychic. To me, its best set rn is SubCM, since it can easily switch into Noiv/Mence/Keldeo for free, Sub as Amoong/Tang come in, setup with CM and sweep or Scald them and get burn chip. Easy easy easy A+ material. Agree on Rhyperior rising to A. Even though rhyp isn't the most long-term answer to Chandelure/Rotom-H/electrics because they hit very hard and rhyp is slow and lacks recovery, it can still take advantage of its typing by blocking Volt Switch etc and getting more lefties recovery. I think its a good rocks setter that can naturally threaten removal like oven/mence/moltres and washer on the switch-in even without any invest. Keep Reuniclus B+ imo it's outclassed by Glowbro both as a CM sweeper and as an AV mon, BUT it does have access to Knock Off, which is extremely spammable, esp early-game. Reun also has higher Spa, HP, and SpDef than Glowbro, but the main diff between them for me is Glowbro being able of punishing fsight switch-ins like Scizor/Steela/Aegi with Scald burns and wear them over time, unlike Knock, which only punishes once, especially since the two former can recover. Also punishes other switch-ins like Mew/Prim/AV Tang with Sludge Bomb poison. Anyways I plan on doing a longer post on them so watch out for that ig??? Agree with Milotic rising to B+. Milo has good enough tools to justify it rising imo, good Speed and offensive presence for a wall, Flip Turn, reliable recovery, and a great defensive typing. Boots are also extremely handy to help it keep chandy/molt/nido in check more reliably.

:slurpuff::mienshao:Others:keldeo::hatterene:
Agree with the puffer rising, ideally to C+ to match Araquanid's rank. Being a webs setter that threatens steels and especially scizor is very very cool, and endeavor and magic coat are infuriating when you manage to use them to their full extent. Mienshao, and especially Scarf mienshao, has a very useful Speed tier rn, outspeeding +1 base 100s, thundy-t, and nihi. Having an offensive regen mon and literally not care abt helm/rocks/lo is extremely valuable, and getting cc lets it spam fighting stab a lot more now. I haven't tried bandshao but that looks very dangerous too. B+ seems fine for it, but I wouldn't mind -A. On Keldeo, I also feel I overhyped it a bit and hit deserves to go down to A+ or the eventual S- if we get one. Hatterene should rise, good way of hazard control to some extent with godly offensive typing, ridiculous ability and sweeping potential.
 
Discussion Points

:Primarina: A -> A+ : AGREE
Primarina is really bonkers atm, both the bulk set and the specs set. It's like having a defensive answer to Keldeo that can also threaten like 70% of the rest of the metagame offensively. It has single handedly cause AV Tang to rise up in usage and viability. It's not quite S Rank (or even fantasy S-) though - it still does have answers folks with lots of faster electrics and bulky grasses in the tier so let's not call the ambulance just yet on this one.

:Rhyperior: A- -> A : DISAGREE
Rhyperior is all that, but it's not quite a bag of chips. It's a cool rocker sure, but it doesn't quite have a great offensive presence unless you run Swords Dance on it, and the things it counters can easily use Toxic on it on the switch to put it on a bad timer. No recovery is rough, and it loses to all of the electrics in the tier with one boost on them except Rotom-H (which again can toxic it). It's obviously not BAD, in fact, it is quite GOOD! A- is a good rank! It should be proud to be there. But it's not inciting as much fear or depression as the other things in A.

:Reuniclus: B+ -> B : AGREE
I don't really see why you would use this much tbh; Slowbro-G is a better choice 90% of the time as a regen bot and a CM sweeper. I suppose it can be fit in certain niche circumstances (not sure specifically what they are), but that shouldn't hold it up in B+. Drop it to B.

:Milotic: B -> B+ : DISAGREE
I mean, I would probably say to drop it to B-. I'm not sure why you use this over Primarina? I've been asking what it does for a while now. I think it was super overhyped when it was dramatically rising in popularity, and I still think the hype is overdoing it on this one. And trust me, I know a little something about overhyping mons. It threatens things with Scald Burn and recovers HP and flip turns out of the way. That's cool and all but it's not even a little bit stressful to play against it. It's not pressuring anything offensively (except maybe Rhyperior), it barely does 50% to Moltres with Scald, and if you are trying to toxic stall with it then just use Aegislash instead (or Moltres even).

:Obstagoon: B -> B+ : DISAGREE
I don't think Goon got better with the recent shifts. I don't think it got much worse either - it's about the same that it was before, and therefore I think it should remain right where it is. You're not going to use it as a standard Guts breaker with Conk in the tier, so it's more for Sleepy stuff. But that's generally not very reliable in a large enough sample of circumstances.

:Necrozma: B -> B- : AGREE
Necrozma hasn't been great for a while now. It's still useable in a sort of mixed capacity, but the standard Meteor Beam/Rock Polish or pure Physical DD sweepers don't have much merit with things like Goltres, Gyarados, and even Mew in the tier that do most of this stuff better.

:Metagross: UR -> C : AGREE
Come on folks, why not? It's not the worst, and our C Rank mons aren't exactly All Stars. The Agility WP set is actually quite threatening and I've seen it pull off some clean sweeps before. I'm not sure about the utility/defensive sets as I'm sure we have things that do that better, but you've got enough here to just plop it on the rankings.

OTHERS

:Slurpuff: UR -> C : AGREE (but not C+)
I guess putting this at C couldn't hurt, but we shouldn't get ahead of ourselves and go straight to C+ here. It's the most predictable and easiest web setter to take advantage of, as no decent player is going to activate its sash, and once its sash is broken you're free to easily defog the webs and KO this thing with almost any offensive mon you have. At least with Shuckle you have more longevity and better momentum forcing the enemy into an Encore. Misty Explosion is cool but Encore from Shuckle is easier to navigate for your own switch (not to mention setting up rocks as well). And let's not forget that sometimes Webs are totally useless - which, in this case, would make Slurpuff totally useless in those games. Something like Araquanid, Shuckle, and even Ribombee can have uses still in fights where Webs are not the play (if you need specifics, I'm talking about facing SLOW teams where webs aren't needed, or stally teams). But again, it's certainly good enough to rise from UR to C (especially since we already have a sample team with it as UR).

:Shuckle: B- -> C+ : DISAGREE
(see above re: Slurpuff)

:Suicune: B -> B- : AGREE
Suicune really has a hard time finding a place here, especially when Primarina can do most of its stuff better. With the rise of Seismitoad and Gastrodon as well, Suicune keeps finding it harder and harder to breathe life in this UU meta. It really just shouldn't be used over other things at all atm, so I would drop it to B- or even C+.

:Togekiss: B -> B- : DISAGREE
Togekiss is actually picking up steam, and I think people are still figuring out new ways to use it. It's a great option for eating choice locked Secret Swords from Keldeo, and paired with something like AV Tang you can have a full team that stops both Keldeo and Primarina using only two mon-slots. Maybe it won't be as effective later on when the meta further develops, but it's worth keeping in the B slot for now.

:Mienshao: B- -> B : AGREE
Mienshao has definitely gotten much better as it's a fast, powerful mon with Regen, something we didn't really have before. I wouldn't overhype it to above B though - it's good, but it's not going to knock your socks off and things like Buzzwole stop it almost entirely. The damage output is also not spectacular with a Scarf compared to Orb, but it's still a threat that you need to watch out for.

OWN NOMS

:Azelf: B- -> B
Azelf is still a premier threat, and now with more people using gross pink webs they will realize that slapping Azelf on a webs team is almost an auto-win in this tier, as it invalidates the scarfers that are almost the only real counterplay to Azelf after it gets on NP up. It shreds the entire tier with its coverage (every single mon in the tier), and the argument that it doesn't really have a chance to set up is a bit unfair given the fact that your opponent will usually have to either let it set up or trade a KO that they don't want to trade (Scizor, for example, would have to BP to chip it and then die from Fire Blast to prevent it from setting up). And it's not paper thin folks - it has as much bulk as Thundurus, which isn't much, but it's not Alakazam levels of frailty. I would obviously say it should be A rank but you guys aren't ready for that, so I'll just keep it here for B.
 

Lyssa

void shrine
is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributor
Haven't done a vr post in a while, I don't have too much time so i won't go too in depth but a lot of stuff is weird to me so i'll point out those ig.

I don't really know why this is A? Primarina to me is by far the best UU mon currently. Specs is by far the most threatening thing in the tier, 1 or 2 spikes allow it to pick almost every time. The comparison between Primarina and Keldeo is a weird one, but i believe that Primarina puts in work no matter what while keldeo relies more on clicking the right move at the right time, with the only loss being its speed tier. Setup sets are being respected a lot more lately so they don't find as many 6-0 mus as before, but they still put in a ton of work and take over the game easily against bulky builds. Restalk's defensive utility is amazing and it's base stats are high enough to pressure even without investments. Idk, personally i'd just move it to S and bring Keldeo down, but putting them on the same rank also seems fair.

Seeing this in A- was so weird, rhyperior feels like a top 5 mon to me. I don't think i saw/had a game where it didn't put in work lately, 3 attacks rocks with megahorn/heat crash as last is super consistent and hits the entire tier really hard. The rise in usage of AV tang for prima/keld etc rising up also helps this a ton since they definitely can't switch into a megahorn even without rocks up(and physdef barely can w/ 1 layer or rocks). It also fits really well in current trends like mew spikes since it abuses them really well, while also pressuring almost every removal in the tier, allowing you to keep them up if played correctly. Probably moving it to A is fair, but I'd go the extra step and put it A+.

I don't have strong opinions on the other discussion points, i feel like obstagoon is fine and could rise and necrozma shouldn't drop but i don't have a strong reasoning.

I don't get the hate towards tenta. It's not a good mon but it's needed sometimes, tried it a bunch and it's the same as usual. Haze is cool for out of control scizors just like it was in sm (scizor barely goes out of control nowdays let's be real), tspikes are cool sometimes. It's speedtier is cool to play with, i think B is perfectly fine.

I don't think this should drop either. Togekiss has a lot of utility and can be flexible in what it does. Best stall defogger by far, the biggest downside togekiss has is that it gives too many opportunities for "free" (i disagree on this since togekiss is able to punish almost every answer it has). I think that B is fine and wouldn't be surprised if it rose in the future.

While i agree with some points that were made in this topic, i disagree with it dropping. Crocune doesn't look bad to me atm, i thought about it instantly after we got shifts and i saw it do stuff in practice. The comparison with primarina is weird to me because while it's true that Primarina gives suicune competition, both subcm/cm and restalk do different stuff than what crocune does. The rise in usage of seismitoad doesn't help but i also don't mind it much since seismitoad is not a hard mon to deal with. The biggest issue with Suicune for me atm is zarude but it has been one since it's release. I don't have any replay to share other than mine from uusd semis (3 months old, that mu was absolutely woat for suicune and was a bad mu in general, i was able to take over the game and then i almost choked but we don't talk about that), It got used once or twice this uupl and didn't do much in practice, but suicune is the same mon as ever and i think that B rank is fine for it. Also vincune is awful.

I agree with rising Mienshao and Ranking Slurpuff but i don't have much to say about those.

I don't have time to do a grammar check rn so sorry if there are mistakes somewhere, I'll prob do a follow up post another time but Zarude, Lycan and Washtom could all rise, and i have no clue of why celesteela and buzzwole are still A. o/
 

scorbunnys

Don't dream your life, but live your dream. #Bunny
Hello children, now scorbunnys is going to make a new post owo
:ss/diancie: B- to B
Actually this is a pretty hot take from me since this mon has a bunch of drawbacks, such as the lack of recovery and being a fairy that isn't Primarina, Hatterene or Sylveon (or Azu...but thats an offense mon anyways) and that on top of that, lacks recovery, sounds hella bad, however, i genuinely believe that it has a niche on it's own due to being a pain to switch-in with Diamond Storm + Body Press + Moonblast (i tried that and has been so fun) while retaining defensive utility and rocks, while it can be checked by a bunch of stuff such as Amoonguss, Primarina or Keldeo, it can check stuff such as Kommo-O, Togekiss at some extent and Salamence as well.
:ss/tapu-bulu: B+ to B+ (Keep were it is)
This mon isn't shit, however i believe that it has some drawbacks.
1. Tapu Bulu is super awkward to fit on a team: The thing is that, on this meta theres two big grasses, Amoonguss and Tangrowth and they are, so good and so splashable...specially Tang and as a fairy...uh theres a bunch of fairies, we have Prim, Sylv, Kiss, Diancie and Garde (Azu might fit on HOs as well).
2. 4MSS: This is an argument that has been pretty well covered by HydreigonTheChild (even tho i don't really believe that Bulu is trash), but basically, what he wanted to say is that Bulu has problems to fit all moves on the same slot, you want 7 moves, SD/Horn Leech/Stone Edge/Zen Headbutt/High Horsepower/Megahorn/Close Combat on a same slot, but he only can fit 4 and Horn Leech + SD is usually mandatory (or Horn Leech/Wood Hammer on Band).
While i still find it being powerful under the right conditions, it's unable to check our two main waters, Keldeo and Primarina, Keld learns Air Slash and Prim can just, worn down it with Moonblast at the long term, making it kinda mid, while i don't think that it needs to drop due to being able to put a lot on work on the MUs if it's on the right MUs and prob some defensive set could get discovered at some point, but i don't think that it deserves to rise neither, at least not to A.
:ss/primarina:A to S
Lily already explained how good is it, basically, this mon can just Moonblast and 2HKO resists/at least 3HKO them and then keep worn downing and pressuring them, it also can put in work on CM sets and the HDB one that Lily posted seems cool (going to test it at some point def), so just the resume of all is ''MOONBLAST GOES BRRRRR'', so yeah, a long explanation does not apply here. specially when Lily said almost everything about it, just rise it to S or A+ (prob S could be a little k+neejerk reaction rn but it's just deserved imo).

:ss/azelf:B- to B+
I think that this mon is hella cool, LO 3 Attacks got benefited by the Alakazam's ban and Zeraora's departure, both of which outsped it and the former was just better than Azelf on most cases (Azelf had a niche on Fire Blast and Knock Off with more atk tho) and now with the tier having some wacky speed-tiers, it can find a place, the rise of things such as Vern kind of hurts it tho, but it can still find itself as a pretty viable mon and it could see more usage on tournaments (on ladder its UU) on the future.

:ss/mew: A+ to S-
I wholeheartedly agree with this thing being S- (not S yet imo because A- to S could be a too kneejerk reaction imo), it's just so versatile and customizable, Decem explained perfectly how versatile is this mon and i just can't explain anything else, just rise it to S-.
Oh and also i forget, what ya guys think about a Teleport/Knock Off/Soft-Boiled/Rocks or Spikes or EVERYTHING?, Teleport is hella interesting for keep momentum and this mon could be decent at this?, idk, i want discussion about it.
:ss/toxtricity:B to B+
This guy should rise, meta trends have been favoring it a lot, Specs sets are powerful af even tho they lack speed, however, with Sticky Webs being on the rise with Slurpuff (it actually prefers Slurpuff as a partner rather than Shuckle due to Misty Explosion), making it pretty annoying to face, specially when mons such as Prim and Moltres are so common (it revenge kills them), Shift Gear is less common, but it can carve a niche prob too, so yeah it could deserve a rise to B+ given that the defensive trends/Primarina are favorable for it.
:ss/celesteela: A to B+
I just don't like this mon atm, i actually remember that i nominated it to A+, but i was so wrong!, this mon is not bad exactly, however it faces some issues (i'll do a checkthrough my old post as well).
On one hand it hates that mons such as Azelf, Togekiss or Sylveon are running fire coverage right now (Fire Blast/Flamethrower and Mystical Fire) and it does not have reliable recovery (i mean, for Leech Seed you can just switch into your AV Tang Grass), making it hella inconsistent.
It also offers 0 utility, it does not have Wish, Healing Wish, Spikes, Stealth Rock, Heal Bell or any utility, it's only a generic wall which is not too consistent atm.
Now the second part, the checkthrough!

:ss/celesteela: A to A+
It did a comeback on HOs thanks to it's Autotomize Meteor Beam set, it is really good on screens because Celesteela has a good bulk and Meteor Beam is a cool lure to the fire types, Leech Seed Celesteela + Sylveon is a solid core too, they both can check a lot of stuff together, feel free to disagree me on this one because i'm kinda shaky on this one, but it is pretty good imo and deserves a little rise.
1. HO isn't on the best spot exactly right now and it needs support (it needs to get an Autotomize + Screens and a Meteor Beam, which is harder on practice than on paper due to having a lot of mons hitting it supperefectively), making it, while a menace if played right, not too consistent exactly.
2. Sylveon loves to have other partners, such as the rising star of Cobalion or Jirachi Scarf sometimes, making it a little awkward to fit.
3. While i was right when SylvSteela can check a bunch of mons together, it's more of Sylv being a good glue that spreads fat wishes than Celesteela doing something, Celesteela relies on Wish and you can't just wish everytime or spam Leech Seed with the grasses rampant.
While i do like Offensive Celesteela because fires are everywhere and Meteor Beam smashes them, Defensive sets aren't the greatest rn and Offensive Celesteela isn't the easiest to fit, making it worth to a drop.

I also support Slurpuff to being ranked and Keldeo dropping (Keldeo isn't good enough tbh because it's ez to scout via stuff such as Sylv, Prim, Noiv or Aegislash, making it easier to abuse than Prim), to me Keld is A+ and Slurpuff C+.
I also agree with Mienshao rising as well and i disagree with Suicune dropping.

End.
 
Last edited:

KM

slayification
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
coming here with a bit of a surprising nomination!

Guzzlord: UR -> C

this morning, I bullied avarice into building a Guzzlord team with me -- it started as mostly a "let's see if it's any good", but it ended up being surprisingly super effective. Here's the set we used:

:ss/Guzzlord:
Guzzlord @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Knock Off
- Dragon Tail

The general idea is to use Guzzlord as a catch all special (and physical depending on typing) defensive pivot -- it can come in on a long list of threats in the UU metagame, knock and phaze, and Rest up. There were several other perks I didn't initially foresee that became clear -- first of all, it's one of the most solid Amoonguss switchins in the game. If anything, it appreciates being Spored because you get the surprise factor of Sleep Talking a crucial knock. It takes virtually nothing from any of the stabs, and it can disrupt multiple items and phaze and rack up hazard damage. Another huge perk is that it easily beats every Slowbro-G set. AV doesn't want to be knocked, and CM gets knocked and phazed out by Dragon Tail. In many ways, it feels similar to Knock Nihilego in that most of the things that would want to switch in to you or stay in against you get massively punished by Knock Off. Even without investment, STAB Knock Off does heavy damage as well.

I was also surprised by how huge its bulk is. As you can see in the replay linked below, it's not even 3HKOd by Raikou's Aura Sphere, and Krookodile required near-max rolls every hit to 3HKO with Earthquake. This (and several other similar calcs) means that a lot of the time, you can just win games because they have nothing left to break you without the help of crits / flinches.

Obviously, this kind of set requires significant support to make work. We paired it with Mew and Diancie for hazard-stacking and Tentacruel to spin and cover its Primarina / Keldeo weakness, adding Buzzwole and Scarf Mamo for a physical wall, elec immune, and speed control. Guzzlord definitely isn't the type of Pokemon you can just slap onto any old team, but when it works, it's super effective -- I'm currently sitting at a little over 1700 exclusively using this team on my alt.

I'd love to see other people try out this set and others -- but I think it definitely has a place in the metagame. I'll try and add more replays as I continue to experiment with this team!

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1330616937-elgxjbjxioxhm07yy1qw5c8xdurm8sbpw
 

pokemonisfun

pia! Get into UU! http://spo.ink/pia1
is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributor
1619667687871.png


This post completes three tasks. First I gather and respond to some of the recent discussion in this thread regarding Suicune. Second I recount my experiences with Rest + Sleep Talk + Calm Mind Suicune. Lastly I provide metagame analysis of my experience to suggest Suicune should rise to A- rank.
Recent discussion on Suicune
There exists a consensus in this thread that Suicune should not rise in the viability ranking. Factual points discussed include BigFatMantis pointing out that Gastrodon and Seismitoad wall mono attacking Suicune, the most common set, and Monky25 mentioning an abundance of Grass types that theoretically match up well vs Suicune, who can generally only hit them with a not very effective Scald. Both Lyss and Monky25 suggest that Primarina and Keldeo offer competition by virtue of the Water typing and Lyss brings up Zarude specifically as a Grass type.

Most players in this thread are suggesting that Suicune should drop with only Lyss elaborating that it should maintain the current B rank. While I don't dispute the factual points made (e.g. yes there are two very common Regenerator Grass types right now), the implications are incorrect as Lyss started to point out.

Grass types generally cannot beat Suicune at all - the standard Rest Calm Mind set easily stalls them out of Giga Drains and Power Whip Tangrowth cannot beat Suicune after a single Scald burn. Primarina and Keldeo offer competition in terms of typing which I acknowledge, but in terms of roles, Keldeo is obviously different (Rest Talk Keldeo is now exceptionally rare) and Primarina has far worse bulk leading to worse match ups vs important threats like the major Ground types. Notably, Primarina generally trades Calm Mind on Rest Talk sets for Moonblast in order to differentiate and get better match ups vs Dragon, Dark and Fighting types but that means she loses sweeping potential and ability to beat Rotom formes and Grass types easily. I'd lastly mention I would require further evidence before saying Seismitoad and Gastrodon in particular are rising -
the latest 1760 stats indicate neither are in the top 50, with Seismitoad (who also runs Swift Swim sets) actually dropping in usage from February.


Rest + Sleep Talk + Calm Mind Suicune
wind condition (Suicune) @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rest
- Scald
- Calm Mind
- Sleep Talk

The standard Rest Sleep Talk Suicune runs roughly this set - more speed is possible, enough to out speed threats like neutral 252 Scizor. I use this set to help sponge many random weaker attacks from defensive Pokemon like Chansey, Jirachi, opposing bulky waters, and Salamence. It basically affords a lot of room not traditionally associated with bulky offense to maneuver around more defensive teams - nothing can really threaten Suicune and I can use it as launching pad to another threat. See turn 44 of this game where I use Suicune in this manner, as a way to launch Aegislash for a decisive attack.

More importantly, this Pokemon is an important sweeping threat as it's incredibly difficult to break. Super effective moves can easily bounce back unless they come from strong attackers - Rotom and Amoongus/Tangrowth simply don't do enough to threaten Suicune, even critical hits don't come close to OHKOing. My opponent here has two Water resists plus a Chansey here but that doesn't do enough to stop Suicune from getting a critical advantage early on in this game; it also had the capability to sweep again at the end but that wasn't necessary.

I don't consider Suicune as invincible. Even with a Scald burn, Choice Band Zarude was able to KO Suicune in this game, although this is something that could have been avoided with better metagame knowledge/calculation skills. But from the builder alone, you can see how utterly helpless the opponent would have been versus Suicune were it not for Zarude, a Pokemon easily whittled down by Rocky Helmet partners and succeptible to Scald burns.


Why Suicune should rise to A- rank
This section discusses the metagame and trends with respect to Suicune. They are nearly all favorable to Suicune.

Firstly, the most threatening Grass types to Suicune are falling off in usage - Zarude and Celebi no longer reside in the tier and Tapu-Bulu is not in the A ranks. It's clear that the most dominant Grass types are now Tangrowth and Amoonguss, which does not often run Clear Smog anymore.

Secondly, Keldeo is now more common and often running Choice Specs - while Suicune cannot really counter this because Secret Sword is a bit too strong, it still strongly dissuades Keldeo from wasting precious Hydro Pump PP and even Secret Sword's 16 PP suddenly feels very limited by Pressure.

Thirdly, Primarina is now considered more useful in the metagame compared to Azumarill. While Suicune can do well versus both of them, if Scald burns Azumarill, being able to set up on the now common Rest Talk Primarina is a huge boon.

Fourthly, tiers shifts were no disappointment for Suicune. Slowking is no longer competition and cannot Teleport into a counter, although that was a risky strategy anyways. Moltres and the commonly defensive Buzzwole provide set up opportunities. Kyurem can no longer fairly easily PP stall you out of Scalds and Freeze Dry you.

Above all, I'd like to reiterate and emphasize how powerful the sweeping capabilities are for Suicune right now. While my analysis has centered on Rest Talk Calm Mind Suicune and I believe is more than sufficient for a rise to A-, it's clear to me that Ice Beam and other sets can change the equation even further by making more favorable match ups versus boosting Salamence and Kommo-O
 
Here to share my personal oppinion on most of this noms!

:Slurpuff:
UR -> C+
I feel really like Slurpuff is the best web setter in the tier. While Ribombee and Araquanid can beat Keldeo, Slurpuff has Endeavor + Focus Sash + Unburden, which means that most of the times they are getting a really hard Endeavor onto any enemy that tries to kill it. Misty Explosion is generally a good momentum move so that you can freely switch into any of your Pokemon while also preventing Defog and Rapid Spin since you are dead. Flamethrower is also crucial thanks to it being able to kill Scizor and hit Aegislash which blocks Endeavor.

:Shuckle:
B- -> C+/C
While it still has it's niche with Encore to prevent being Setup Fodder, it almost can't do anything against the top three mons (imo), Keldeo, Primarina and Scizor. Don't really have much to say about this other than it's probably outclassed by two out of the three web setters on this tier.

:Tornadus:
C+ -> B-
With the rise in usage of Grass-types and the lack of Steels/Electrics to resist his Hurricane, Tornadus definitely has a niche in Rain, being able to smack a lot of things hard with his spammable no-miss Hurricanes, Water-typ Weather Balls for those Rock-types and Nasty Plot to increase his breaking potential even further. Thanks to his 111 Base Speed Tornadus is also capable of outspeeding Keldeo, which is really good atm. While it's not the best really, it definitely is one of the better options for a Rain Team.

:Darmanitan:
UR -> C
Going from Rain to Sun, thanks to Sheer Force and Choice Scarf, Darmanitan fits quite reliably on Sun teams thanks to its powerful Flare Blitz and decent speed. There aren't that many things that take a lot of Sun boosted Flare Blitz other than the likes of Salamence and Kommo-o, and while being easily taken advantage of because of recoil damage, it definitely is a potent wallbreaker on Sun.

:Mienshao:
B- -> B+
Being a offensive mon with U-turn, Life Orb and Regenerator out of all things is REALLY good in this metagame, having powerful Close Combats, not-so punishable U-turns, and coverage to hit those Moltres who threaten a burn, Mienshao is something you should start accounting for. Knock Off and U-turn are very spammable, hitting popular mons like Tangrowth, Mew and many more mons with U-turn and crippling Flying-type switches like Salamence, Moltres and Thundurus with Knock Off. Some interesting sets like Banded Reckless HJK and Scarf.

Some other own nominations:

:Porygon-Z:
UR -> C
With the popularity of Spikes teams, Choice Specs Porygon-Z can have a niche on those teams thanks to its wonderful breaking capabilities thanks to Tri Attack and Adaptability, while also having BoltBeam coverage and much more. The decay of most bulky Steels have been a good start for the duck, but, Nihilego can be quite annoying thanks to its naturally good SpD and Rock-typing, though thanks to Spikes and Nihi lacking reliable recovery, after some turns it should be able to muscle through it. Def a pretty underrated Pokemon.

:Nihilego:
A- -> A
Nihilego has been quite a good mon atm, being good at checking most Flying-types and Thundys, while also being able to setup Stealth Rocks/Toxic Spikes, maintaining good offensive pressure and providing hazards. I've been having a lot of fun with this mon, having a pretty flexible last moveslot. You could use Knock Off to hit Aegislash, Jirachi and Chansey or Grass Knot for Rhyperior and Krookodile, or even Dazzling Gleam for Keldeo and Kommo-o. Meteor Beam can be a menace if your priority user is dead, and Scarf can also put in work whenever it wants to.
 

justdrew

meep meep
is a Top Tutoris a Forum Moderatoris a Top Tiering Contributor
Moderator
The Restructuring of S Tier

Here is a post that I don't think anyone has made and it is a post that needs to be made. A majority of you have probably seen discussion or even taken part in it over the past few weeks in the UU Discord. People have some opinions on what Pokemon should be S tier and in this post I will do a summary as well as a listing of my own opinions. I don't know if I will come to any conclusion but I will lay out the different schools of thought. Here they are as follows:

S Tier Remains the Same

:Scizor: :Keldeo:

I think you find this to be the least likely scenario. I will use this section to talk about why Scizor should stay and the next to talk about why Keldeo should leave. Many people right now are comparing Scizor now to Scizor in SM. Take note in both generations it was an S tier staple. Scizor was over-centralizing, highly threatening, and had plenty of versatility with Z-moves in SM. It was something you always had to take into consideration. In SS not so much. It's much less powerful and most teams carry a fair amount of checks. But in my mind there is just no way Scizor is taken off S tier. Steel types have always been a staple for all teams and Scizor is far too spammable. It is excellent with access to two priority moves and will be seen on 90% of hyper offense teams. Access to Dual Wingbeat allows it to Amoonguss, Buzzwole, Keldeo, Kommo and others. Plus Volt-Turn is excellent as always and it is just the most common and best U-Turner. Either Scizor stays in S tier or S tier doesn't exist.

S Tier Loses Keldeo
:Scizor:

This is the most likely scenario. When I saw Keldeo in S tier I mentioned it in UU chat and I got a lot of consensus. Keldeo is not deserving. With Slowking and Zeraora gone I think people jumped to conclusions and thought Keldeo would deserve S tier. It really didn't turn out that way as Primarina is just so much better. Lily made a great post about it so I will just summarize a few main points. Secret Sword is easily punished on Specs variants. Ghosts have immunity to it whereas Fairy moves have no immunity. Primarina is knocking somethings socks off and it can pivot just like Keldeo can. It is much better used defensively and frankly it's typing makes it better for CM. It is the better Water as it can be used bulky more dominantly and it just doesn't make sense for Keldeo to be ranked above Primarina.

S Tier Loses Keldeo and Gains Primarina and/or Mew
:Scizor: :Primarina: :Mew:

Now we have Scizor and Primarina in S tier and I think an argument can be made for Mew to join as well. Mew is most dominantly used as defensive or just regular utility with Spikes, Knock Off, Willow Wisp, Stealth Rock, Teleport, Future Sight, Ice Beam, Flamethrower, Psychic; whatever combination of moves your team needs it to have. Notice how I just listed a bunch of moves it can use on just one variant. Not to mention the Nasty Plot, Swords Dance, Dragon Dance, Scarf Trick, very annoying Imprison sets, and whatever your mind can come up with. Mew can literally do it all and is dangerous as a Psychic without Alakazam taking that role. People really haven't grasped the versatility of Mew with its great 600 BST. Do I wholeheartedly thing it deserves S tier? Not really. But I absolutely thing it's a logical choice because it fits the historical parameters of an S tier Pokemon.

S Tier Is Deleted

If you don't think Scizor deserves S tier, nothing really does. I would be fine with only Mew or only Primarina but it just doesn't seem right. Scizor is a legacy of UU VR S tier. It is just too good of a mon generally to not be there. I don't think S tier should be deleted because logically one or a few Pokemon have to be the best. And all you are doing is turning A+ into S tier and equalizing a bunch of Pokemon in the meta that aren't equal.

Conclusion

These are the most likely formats of S tier in the next update. I personally don't think it is a super big deal but it does irk me that Keldeo is there as opposed to Mew and Primarina. Please take into account I wrote this post quickly but I think it is good information and topic for discussion. S tier is where the eyes of newer players go so it should be the most logical listing of Pokemon possible. Thanks for reading and have a nice day/night!
 

Hilomilo

High-low My-low
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Social Media Contributor Alumnus
Moderator
Here's our update! Discussion Points coming soon
Rises
:Mew: from A+ to S: Mew has quite obviously become an absolutely instrumental component of the current metagame. Between its simply incredible customizability, set versatility, and the potency of supportive and offensive sets alike, it is clearly among the tier’s most consistent and centralizing forces. One of the only Pokemon you can simultaneously call a great utility pick and something that could randomly sweep you with NP or Dragon Dance at any point, S seems more than fitting at this rate.

:Primarina: from A to S-: Primarina is another one of the metagame’s central forces that is best represented above the A ranks, though this time in S-, thanks to its excellent mix of utility, splashability, and potency. It offers an immense amount between the devastating immediate presence Choice Specs supplies it with, the ability to function as a top tier glue that its RestTalk set lends it, and genuine ways of circumventing nearly all of its realistic counterplay. The rationale for only raising Primarina to S- for the time being was the VR team’s belief that, despite being a cut above the Pokemon in A+, Primarina still isn’t quite on the level of Mew or Scizor due to their incredible importance and general centralization over the tier.

:Slowbro-Galar: from A to A+: One of the current hot topics of the metagame, Glowbro is a simply fantastic bulky sweeping presence that offers both great self sufficiency and consistent threat level. It has emerged as possibly the biggest teambuilding headache around and has both the influence over the metagame and general prowess needed to make the cut for A+.

:Thundurus: :Thundurus-therian: from A to A+: Thundurus has continued to come into its own as the tier’s premier Electric-type in a post-Zeraora metagame. Its Speed tier and offensive presence have been key in shaping a few metagame trends and its threat level is at an all-time high, which A+ reflects well. Thundurus-T finds itself in a similar boat with some particularly exceptional responses to meta trends, including the surge in hyper offenses like screens that it can often solidly fit onto.

:Rhyperior: from A- to A: Rhyperior has become one of the meta’s most favorable options for a rocker thanks to the blend of many valuable traits it possesses. It applies solid pressure to the bulk of the tier’s relevant hazard removal, while the excellent utility of its typing for checking Pokemon like Rotom-H and Moltres can be pretty enabling support for something like Scizor. Its ability to trade with common threats including Thundies/Lycanroc/Moltres-G can also be pretty key and often ensures that it will consistently put in work in any given match.

:Zarude: from A- to A: Zarude continues to rise up the ranks for the same reasons as before. It’s both a premier pivot and scarfer, has a typing with ever-improving utility as Mew and Aegislash only get better, and offers a lot between its pivoting capabilities, Jungle Healing, and even the capacity to run Rock Slide for switch-ins like Moltres. With many ways of applying itself and keeping up pressure, Zarude seems to only be just behind its DLC1 iteration in terms of overall value at this stage.

:Raikou: from B+ to A-: Raikou has blossomed into an offensive mainstay of the tier, with fantastic tools to perform between its Speed, coverage, and ability to circumvent most of its counterplay in some fashion through its multiple options for sets. The tier has no shortage of great Electric-types right now, and Raikou is certainly one of them.

:Necrozma: from B to B+: The current presence of screens has been kind to Necrozma, finally allowing it to illustrate its strength in the DLC2 metagame as a powerful sweeper. Meteor Beam and Dragon Dance have both proven to be incredible fits on popular offensive structures, giving Necrozma a much more defined identity than before.

:Cobalion: from B to B+: Cobalion has been really nice lately for the various roles it can compress, as well as the many different options currently at its disposal. SD with either Stone Edge or Volt Switch in its fourth slot has been particularly useful for offering good Speed, customizability, offensive pressure, and a soft check to popular Pokemon like Nihilego, Scizor, and Zarude. It’s often pretty self sufficient in matchups without an opposing Aegislash or Buzzwole, and also has decent potential for its item choice with options like Safety Goggles and Shuca Berry being quite potent lately.

:Mienshao: from B- to B+: Mienshao has surged as one of UU’s rising stars, coming into its own as a great option for a fast physical wallbreaker with no Terrakion around. Regenerator, U-turn, and Knock Off are pretty excellent tools that have lended themselves to a lot of applicability for Mienshao, though it also has the flexibility to fit coverage moves for paper checks like Moltres and Salamence if need be.

:Azelf: from B- to B: Azelf has continued to establish some more identity for itself in the tier as a solid option for a fast Psychic-type. Its coverage allows Nasty Plot sets to prove to be pretty nasty in tandem with its Speed, though offensive pivoting sets with boots have also seen some more usage, carving more a niche for Azelf and increasing its general applications in the metagame.

:Gardevoir: from C+ to B-: Another potent Psychic-type at the moment, Gardevoir is continuing to climb up the rankings as its offensive coverage and colorful utility movepool have been further tapped into in the builder. It has a good amount of utility and niches it can carve over its main competition in Primarina between its movepool, typing, and Speed, which has allowed it more recent opportunities to establish an identity.

:Mantine: from C to C+: As Keldeo has significantly improved, Mantine has stuck out as one of the more solid means of combating it. Its typing and bulk also present fair utility with Pokemon like Scizor, Kommo-o, and Buzzwole all being important components of the tier, giving it decent defensive value right now.

:Slurpuff: from UR to C+: Slurpuff has become a solid pick as a Sticky Web setter thanks to the value of Fire-type coverage, Unburden, and potentially tools like Magic Coat/Endeavor/Misty Explosion that it can compress. It’s even had tour appearances and is on a current sample team to boot, which illustrates the effectiveness it’s recently established.

:Darmanitan: from UR to C: Darmanitan’s Choice Scarf set has proven to be a potent pick on sun teams thanks to the immense power of its sun- and Sheer Force-boosted Flare Blitz. It’s particularly been able to carve an identifiable niche in recent months with Victini now long-gone from the tier.

:Guzzlord: from UR to C: Although it’s an odd pick, Guzzlord has showcased some fair defensive utility in recent weeks, its typing and phazing abilities yielding favorable matchups against popular Pokemon like Aegislash, Glowbro, Chandelure, and Mew. Despite being quite niche, it certainly has the tools it needs to find some worth with the current makeup of the tier.

Drops
:Keldeo: from S to A+: Although Keldeo is still a top 10 Pokemon, its two-subrank rise in our last update was probably a bit of an overshot. It’s still plenty threatening but has been relatively well adjusted to in building with AV Tang surging and several Secret Sword resists being quite capable of punishing it. Primarina also has a firm place in the tier, which burdens Keldeo some both in that Primarina both competes with it but can pose as a fair obstacle to its progress in some matches.

:Celesteela: from A to A-: Even without Skarmory around, Celesteela got notably worse with the recent tier shifts. Moltres becoming a recent tier staple has really hurt it, it can’t reliably combat the rises of Electric-types like the Thundies/Rotoms/Raikou, and Pokemon capable of overwhelming it like Primarina and Aegislash are increasingly common. It will always fulfill a solid role, but simply doesn’t have the same defensive applicability it once did and struggles to find too many top threats that it can definitively check.

:Chandelure: from A to A-: Chandelure has taken a slight dip due to the heavy competition it faces from the increasingly potent Aegislash, who has a more self-sufficient typing that often makes it an easier fit on teams. The increased presences of Pokemon like Primarina and Nihilego have also made things just a tad more awkward for Chandelure, making it a bit less of a ‘free’ wallbreaking option.

:Nidoqueen: from A to A-: Nidoqueen has lost some steam as a rocker as options like Rhyperior and Seismitoad have developed larger niches in the tier. Its typing doesn’t lend it the ability to check or trade with as many top threats as it once did now that Zeraora and Terrakion are both gone, though its damage output will always supply Nidoqueen with a niche.

:Conkeldurr: from B+ to B: Conkeldurr has a difficult time actually utilizing its wallbreaking prowess in practice given the current structure of the metagame. The slow builds it would usually feast on aren’t particularly common right now and the tier is flooded with fast, powerful offensive threats capable of overwhelming it. The amount of other valuable Fighting-types with more overall utility has also recently burdened it a fair bit.

:Sylveon: from B+ to B: Sylveon has already fallen off a tad from its slight surge that was met with a two-subrank rise in our last update. Its typing has a lot of current opportunity cost with Primarina being such a force in the tier and providing plenty defensive utility with its bulky sets, while its special bulk is hard to utilize as consistently lately as special attackers like Aegislash, Galarian Slowbro, and Nihilego have improved.

:Tapu Bulu: from B+ to B: Tapu Bulu is often very hard to actually make work in practice due to the plethora of strong counterplay that currently exists in the metagame. Pokemon like Aegislash/Salamence/Moltres/Amoonguss/Tangrowth are all over the place and severely stunt its progress and intensify its already bad 4mss. It also can’t tap into the perks of its typing unless it invests in bulk, which ends up making it a fairly subpar check to stuff like Keldeo and Crawdaunt. It just lacks a solid niche in the tier and is way too reliant on support to reasonably stay in B+.

:Suicune: from B to B-: Despite some support for a rise in the thread, Suicune finds itself in a very awkward spot lately. While there is no shortage of potent Water-types for it to compete with for a slot as is, it also hasn’t responded too nicely to the surge in Electric-types that can muscle past it, Zarude being excellent again, and the tier’s highly offensive nature, which are all trends its main competition has more gracefully pivoted around. Even smaller trends like Tangrowth running Power Whip more commonly have served to disadvantage Suicune.

:Diancie: from B- to C+: Diancie is just awkward. It takes up the Fairy-type slot, which is currently very valuable, but doesn’t actually check or even pressure the tier’s popular Fighting-types all too adequately. It basically needs Mystical Fire for Scizor but would really like Toxic in some other cases, is overwhelmed by many prevalent Pokemon quite easily, and in general just doesn’t tend to offer too many tools that are particularly urgent or specific to it.

:Scolipede: from B- to C+: In a tier full of one-time sweepers that often outperform Scolipede in terms of effectiveness on screens builds, it really struggles to actually find a place. It simply just doesn’t have the proven worth it needs given its amount of current competition.

:Shuckle: from B- to C+: Shuckle is slowly falling out of favor as Slurpuff rises as a webs setter. Its passiveness and momentum sapping have stuck out more and more as detriments as its main competition has found ways of circumventing these issues, which justifies a drop and potentially even a lower rank than Slurpuff some time in the future.

:Charizard: from C+ to C: Charizard’s niche is incredibly specific, only existing on sun teams which aren’t bad but also aren’t particularly good. It really isn’t a mainstay of the archetype and also can tend to require a decent amount of support, and generally makes more sense to be ranked alongside a similar wallbreaking presence with limited longevity for sun in Darmanitan.

:Tyrantrum: from C to UR: Tyrantrum has a niche on paper that hasn’t actually been utilized in practice, while the plethora of other available wallbreakers/sweepers means that it can struggle significantly to find any slots on teams. Unranking it feels reflective of its lack of a proven niche in the metagame.

Hope y'all enjoyed. I have yet to write out discussion points but once I do I'll post those here and open the thread back up. Cheers!~
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 2)

Top