Resource SS UU Crown Tundra Viability Ranking Thread

[Hilomilo]

Quick note that Grimmsnarl has risen to A- and Alolan Ninetales has risen to B+. The VR team agreed on these changes after the above post was already made on the merit of both being great screens setters in a screens-dominated metagame. Grimmsnarl offers fantastic support thanks to Prankster, though some builders have also been preferring Ninetales recently for the threat that Ice-type attacks can pose and the utility of Aurora Veil, though Grimmsnarl is still stronger overall. With that out of the way, here's the discussion slate:

Discussion Points

Kommo-o A+ -> A: Kommo-o has been a bit of a hot topic among the VR team members recently, with some praising it and others doing the opposite. Generally Kommo-o hasn’t found itself as a particularly large staple on any given playstyle to the extent it once was, in part due to the surge of other great picks for screens abusers, but also due to the general falling off of sets like defensive Stealth Rock and the rise of checks like Primarina. Whether it still encompasses the versatility and threat level needed to stay in A+ is a discussion worth opening up to the community.

Aegislash A -> A+: Aegislash has become a more realized offensive threat lately, its Choice Specs set picking up some recent steam and proving particularly nasty. It also sports some nice additional perks, like its typing offering utility against rising foes like Nihilego/Cobalion and setup sets being more accessible on the tier’s popular screens builds. Although its poor Speed can definitely be exploited by the tier’s many powerful fast threats, it’s been in talks for a rise to A+ enough to be a worthy discussion point.

Buzzwole A -> A-: While it’s obviously a good component of the metagame, there has been some talk that Buzzwole’s influence simply may not be big enough for its current spot in A. It yields slightly shaky matchups against the tier’s top dogs and also suffers a tad from its punishable Speed and STAB moves. Checks to it like Moltres and Togekiss have also seen some notable improvement in recent weeks. Buzzwole’s presence as one of the tier’s most immediately threatening wallbreakers with Choice Band is hard to forget, however, which makes whether to drop it a bit of a tricky question.

Gyarados A- -> A: Gyarados has obviously been in a better place as a sweeper since the most recent tier shifts, though its viability has been particularly boosted by the surge in effectiveness of screens builds, which offer some of the best support to Gyarados available and allow it to harness its potential to devastating effects. In some capacity it will definitely always be a bit constricted by its role as a one-time sweeper slightly limiting its splashability, though Gyarados is more well equipped to do its job now than ever before and a rise could certainly reflect its current prowess.

Nihilego A- -> A: Nihilego has been picking up some steam lately as a strong special attacker that also presents some neat utility. Checking the thundies, Moltres, and Rotom-H among some other goons is pretty great, while its splashability has also seen a general increase as Meteor Beam sets have found a nice home on screens builds and as counterplay like Celesteela and Nidoqueen has gotten worse. It’s bulk and occasionally awkward typing still weigh it down in a Scizor-run tier, though it has many good things going for it lately.

Togekiss B -> B+: Togekiss was just a vote away from rising in our last slate, emerging lately as a very solid option thanks to its strong matchups against prevalent Pokemon like Choice Band Krookodile/Kommo-o/Zarude/Tangrowth. Slower threats like Primarina are in for absolute hell against it, while it also has the set of tools needed to mess with checks like Nihilego via something like Thunder Wave, though some users in the thread have noted Togekiss’ lack of appreciation for various surging Electric-types, including the Thundies/Rotoms/Raikou.

Quagsire B- -> C+: As stall falls further out of the limelight, whether to drop Quagsire, the Pokemon whose ranking essentially represents the play style, becomes more worth talking about. It can still offer some crucial matchups against prevalent boosting Pokemon, especially given how many there are in this meta, but easy structures for it to fit onto are quite hard to come by these days.

Mantine C+ -> B-/B: Mantine has developed a larger niche recently as a Pokemon that offers fairly valuable support. Pivoting in on Keldeo is still quite nice, though it also can decently match up against Scizor/Salamence/Moltres and has a solid supportive movepool to boot. Particular hangups include its Electric-type weakness and general passiveness, though more support for a rise than ever before has been communicated from the VR team recently.

That should conclude our update! Be kind and happy posting, and thank you for your patience during a bit of a long wait time for the update :]

 

[Chicknemacnchez]

to A: Disagree

I think it's too versatile to drop. Mixed is a bitch to wall and the set up sweepers are very threating. While I think Clangourous Soul is overrated, It's good at all at its jobs. It got even better with the rise of Chansey as the premier special wall (at least what I've seen).

to A+: Agree

This is thing is really hard to wall especially if Chansey is the special wall of choice. SubTox is a 6-0 in the right mu and its defensive typing is great.

to A-: Agree

I think the only sets worth using right now are defensive, since Scizor basically outclasses it, and has a MUCH better mu against screens.

to A: Agree

Ban light clay

to A: Agree

STAB's plus Knock Off is a nightmare to deal with its best set imo. I still think Meteor beam has its merit but the popularity of steals hurts it. Scarf is meh but revenging Thundurus-T under webs is cool ig.

to B+: no comment, never used it, and never faced it.

to C+: Agree

This mon is ass. Barely counters anything, vunerable to toxic, and bad stats.

to B-/B: Agree, sorta

Again, I've never used it, but I've seen it and it has a cool niche. I think B- is better because it's a water check weak to knock and that loses to Primarina (can't blame it everything does).

 

[Band]

Shitposting aside, here are my thoughts on the new slate:​

Kommo-o A+ -> A: Disagree
Even though most clanger sets aren't used anymore, it more than compensates with clangorous soul imo. Under screens and +1 defenses, clanger is very very hard to rkill, even after the HP drop. This set alone makes it extremely threatening and imo should be mandatory on screens teams, since it's an amazing win condition. If Light Clay is banned, then I can see it dropping, but not now.

Aegislash A -> A+: Agree
I feel aegi's typing and ghost stab are what make it very prevalent, even in a tier full of checks like krook/zarude/amoong/tang. it's unpredictability also is key, since you can almost never know what set it is if it doesn't reveal the item. before you know, it managed to toxic your av tang expecting a sball from specs, or shred your salamence with shadow ball expecting a close combat. it also blanket checks a whole bunch of stuff, including bulu, scizor, mew, nihi, etc. very deserving of a rise.

Buzzwole A -> A-: Agree
I haven't used buzz as much as i'd like other than defensive sets, and those aren't really great, as you struggle a bit with JH zarude, something it should be able to check extremely easily. I gotta say its physical bulk is very good when you need a glue to most physical attackers, but its Speed and special bulk still hinder it in my eyes.

Gyarados A- -> A: Agree
Gyarados's ability of just steamrolling teams when under screens is absolutely insane, and very few things can stop it. Grasses fold to ice fang, quag and washer die to pwhip, and waterfall is a clean ohko or 2hko on a lot of things like steela. The amount of games gyara can win on the spot is pretty big, and it deserves a lot this rise. I'd even shoot for A+ but idk abt it yet.

Nihilego A- -> A: Should rise to A+
very few things can stop meteor beam nihilego. the only true 100% consistent and viable answer to it at +1 is Scizor, scarf shao, and the non-existant azu and crawdaunt, which yes, completely invalidate mbeam variants, BUT hear me out. Meteor beam sets are sneaky as fuck and take advantage of rotom-h and other fire-types extremely easily, but specially oven after an overheat drop. the amount of times i've won with mbeam nihi after rotom-h overheated smth on my team and i got a free boost is insane. utility i'd say is also an amazing set. rock + poison is a very good offensive combo now, threatening prim, sciz on the switch, mence, tang, gyara, etc. Not to mention it shits on every defogger bar washer: moltres, rotom-h, and mence. Knock Off is a godsend for a mon like this and you're able to cripple so many switch-ins it's insane. subtox aegi suddenly becomes A LOT more manageable after u knock the lefties. same goes for rhyperior, which is also super relevant now. I've been hyping up Nihilego for a while now and i think it totally deserves to be A+ given the metagame trends, even if Scizor usage is super high.

Togekiss B -> B+: No opinion, haven't used

Quagsire B- -> C+: Agree
Fits on stall only and is destroyed by gyara and nihilego, mons it should be able to answer reliably due to Unaware.

Mantine C+ -> B-/B: Agree to B-
Blanket checks a lot of stuff as said by hilo, and takes advantage of high prim and keldeo usage. I had some success with it, even if it falls short on checking things it's supposed to at times, like glowbro.

 

[Monky25]

-be monke looking at phone while eating banana
-see VR thread unlocked
-rushes to make a post that only gets 6 likes and contains opinions that will probably change in a week
-you know the drill, post has both discussion points+ my own nominations

to A+, agree: I was thinking about this nomination for a while and even planned on posting it before the thread was locked for the update. Despite aegislash's poor speed tier, it has still proven itself to be an excellent Pokemon in the metagame with high usage. Its sub toxic set is as good as always, though its offensive sets like King shield 3 attacks or king shield+toxic+2 attacks has also shown to be potent. It also is able to be used on common screen builds, utilizing SD or mixed WP autotomize sets to great success. Its choice specs set has also proven to be potent as a breaker due to its lack of rocks weakness, giving it some perks over chandelure. Its typing offers great utility against threats like glowbro, non knock off scizor, and Nihilego. All in all, aegislash is a really good pokemon in the current metagame and rise to A+ should reflect its high viability

to A, disagree: Kommo-o, though not as splashable as before admittedly, is still an extremely potent offensive threat to deal with in the builder. It loves the state of HO in the tier and with a diverse amount of set up sets, its defensive answers can vary as one check looses to another set. offensive rocks sets are pretty good as well (don't use defensive). Right now kommo-o is just too threatening to drop to A rank based on its set up sets. If a light clay ban does happen then MAYBE it can drop but as of now clanger should remain in A+

to A, agree: Nihilego has soared as one of the best rockers in the metagame. It checks the thundies, moltres forms, mence, and heattom well, showing its potency as a rocker that can beat the most common removal. Offensive sets are a threat, especially on psychic terrain teams. It can even lure rhyperior with grass knot or cripple switch ins like chansey with knock off. It does have its flaws, with aegislash and AV glowbro being very good, but still nihilego has demonstrated enough consistency to rise to A

to A, agree: demon mon. I cannot keep track of how many times I've pulled off an easy sweep with gyarados on the ladder. All it needs is one dragon dance and its go time, tearing through most teams. Though it has to deal with mind games with bounce, it still appreciates answers like celesteela becoming way less common than before. It can set up on plenty of Pokemon like scizor, keldeo, and even stuff like Primarina under screens. Screens HO are very good right now with gyarados being a near staple on it and should rise as a result

- I don't have too much to say on these so I'll keep it short with a lightning round. Buzzwole can drop, offensive sets face competition from faster fighters like mienshao and keldeo and its defensive typing gives it some shortcomings in a tier with pokemon like thundurus, moltres, and salamence. Mantine should also rise, though only to B- rather than B imo. Great counter to threats like keldeo and moltres. Enough to crack into B- if I do say so myself. I'm indifferent on quagsire, doesn't matter if it drops or rises. Togekiss I'm also somewhat indifferent on, pokemon like aegislash, nihilego, scizor, and electric types don't do it much favors, I'd keep it in B but then again my lack of experience means there might be something I'm missing about togekiss's viability
Now, onto my own nominations...

to B+: This is a weird nomination, but right now I don't think noivern does enough to stay A-, even if it has the added benefit of ignoring screens. The need for a fast keldeo check has certainly lessened as the meta develops and the rise of Pokemon like Nihilego don't do it any favors. Its also pretty weak, 97 special attack is far from impressive, and even has a bit of 4MSS in my own experience, wanting Draco Meteor, hurricane, flamethrower, u-turn, roost, and defog. Now if this is voted to stay A- its fine but I feel I might as well bring up the prospect of noivern dropping to B+ since it certainly has a lot more flaws compared to the things in A-.

to B-: I'm surprised this hasn't dropped yet. Barraskewa isn't that great right now, its barely finding a spot on volt turn teams due to its shit defensive utility over other team options, and rain hasn't been exactly consistent in the tier. Barraskewda has been a fairly underwhelming mon for a while now and I think a sub rank drop to B- should reflect the fact it hasn't taken off on pivot teams nor rain builds.

to B-: This guy can be just dumb at times. With one shell smash it can sweep unprepared teams, only relying on priority to check it, which can be hard if run on psychic terrain teams. The kings rock flinch stuff it can do is also annoying. Its not the greatest or anything but its a significantly more dangerous sweeper than anything else in the C ranks and its even more threatening than some stuff in B- if I'm being real. Should def get a rise in the future.

to B-: There's been a bit of buzz around entei, and I can see why. Sacred fire is a crazy move, burning pokemon 50% of the time. This allows entei to cripple common switch ins like seismitoad, rhyperior, and salamence. The buff to inner focus also helps it deal with mence better without having to worry about intimidate. good coverage in stone edge and extreme speed alongside moves like toxic to cripple waters has proven entei to be a viable option to use in the meta. Its even recently got some use in tours to show off its potency. I think B- would be a good fit for it for now.

That's all from me, hope you enjoyed giving this a read!

 

[kino]

to A : Disagree
I feel like this is extremely related to the Light Clay ban. While technically not awful outside of screens I've yet to see a Gyarados bulky offense, and it almost never imposes itself as a good choice in this playstyle. I'd love to see how it does if/once light clay gets banned but I feel like we should at least wait for that. Other than that its 4th move is usually not too hard to guess on team preview, and even if you guess wrong, herbless bounce has to win a handful of 50/50s in order to really become out of hand. In my experience with and against it, it mostly punishes passive teams with insufficient speed control and isn't too scary outside of this scenario.

to A- : Disagree
Gotta say, I was a bit hesitant on Buzzwole myself. I've used it a lot lately though, and it does its job fantastically well, for the most part. Band is extremely painful to switch into since it virtually has coverage for everything, and there's a bunch of foes that let him throw hits pretty easily (Zarude, Krook, bulky Sciz). Boots 3atk roost does similar things, trading power for reliability (though roost on cb is good, albeit less easy to click). Defensive sets are probably its week end for me, since they are abusable my some mons no matter what they run (rest talk prim, glowbro) and can be invalidated by Future Sight teams. They're still usable with the right amount of support, and can be a huge pain in a decent matchup, invalidating a handful of breakers. With that and, mostly, offensive variants brings so much to teams, I def don't see it dropping for now.

to A+ : Unsure
Have you ever found yourself in the situation where your breaker can't really switch into the things it'd like to break? Stuff like Hatter, Glowbro and Mew can either hinder it pretty badly or outright win the 1v1, even against specs. This means you'll need a decent amount of support to bring it in, and even then you're never safe from some very decent cheese like Kasib Glowbro. I'm still a big fan of the rising tox 2atk kings shield and band, and sd can unironically be a huge pain to deal with. For sure its sheer unpredictability works in its favor but it can fall short in terms of reliability. I'm fine w/ either, but would rather wait a bit.

to B+ : Agree
If you're not running Nihilego, this can be an absolute demon to face. I'm not such a fan of defensive sets, seeing the amount of decently fast electrics we got that can abuse Toge clicking everything, which makes bulky np/twave support sets a bit shaky. On the other hand, offensive sets can really be a nightmare to deal with. ojr brought air slash/roost/flame/gk offensive togekiss in pspl and it could've outright 6-0d me with the right amount of luck. Its coverage allows it to punish its usual checks extremely easily, even Nihilego can be cheesed by psyshock if needed. Its very good at punishing people using Rhyp as their flying resist or Sciz/Coba as their steel. And toge being toge, winning thanks to a huge push of luck is always decently possible (s/o evil flame burns)

to higher : Disagree
In my experience of it, it's extremely vulnerable to koff and status and always ends up dying way faster than one would've liked because of that. It's a huge momentum vacuum that slows down what you've been building up only to work in a limited amount of matchups (rain/vs keld/vs severe lack of koff). The fact it relies on Scald burns to check a bunch of stuff doesn't play in its favor.

to A : Agree
For sure ja. This alone has changed the way I build a bit, seeing how weak I usually was to this demon. It got a plethora of potent sets, from the classic Meteor Clutch to more niche stuff like (evil) Specs/(kinda bad but ok vs ho) Scarf, with good sludge rocks in between. It's very scary and can easily punish bad prep on top of having good utility, it def should rise.

Not too sure about the others, is fine in A+ but I wouldn't mind a drop, good in some matchups and shambolic in others, good in rains and almost got a niche outside of it, huge fan of rn but ig it's fine in A, same for but B+ is good enough

 

[romanji]

DISCUSSION TIME
Agree

to A+: Specially defensive Aegislash is everything that Celesteela wants supposed to be, as it is basically the same speed, with more variety and isn't walled by Chansey due to its access to Close Combat. It serves as a great blanket check to special attackers such as Nihilego, Sylveon, and Mew. King's Shield can be used to punish Knock Off attempts from Scizor and Krookodile, forcing them to switch. Choice Specs and Mixed sets are also fantastic at choosing its own checks.

to A-: Buzzwole has found a good home on bulky offense teams for its great physical bulk and attack, being able to go against Pokemon such as Scizor, Zarude, and Mienshao. but I feel like it can't take on many of the Pokemon ranked from A to S, such as Primarina, Moltres, and Salamence effectively. It's horrible Special Defense leave it vulnerable to many coverage options such as Flamethrower on Kommo-o and Mew. But its merits as a tank definitely keep it at A-.

to A: Screens are broken so Gyarados is back in business. Power Whip is there to destroy any Water-type thinking it can force it out. (how does this even use power whip, does it use its body or the mustache?) Ice Fang is great coverage against Salamence. Though it does struggle against bulky Grass-types such as Amoonguss and Zarude, with the latter potentially revenge killing it with Choice Scarf Power Whip, but Screens support can help that out effectively.

to A: Nihilego is a top tier Stealth Rock setter due to having great speed, over top Pokemon such as Thundurus-T and Salamence. Knock Off is used to remove Heavy-Duty Boots, Leftovers, and Eviolite from Chansey. Meteor Beam sets have become rarer so any team must be careful of it as a late-game sweeper. Grass Knot is great for handling Seismitoad and Quagsire, and may even be A+.

to C+: When stall is bad, our squishy friend is also bad, but it still has some semblance of a niche with being able to stop some set-up sweepers, but it can't stop many common ones such as Gyarados and Nihilego.
Disagree

to A: Kommo-o has now found itself in a tough spot, due to the rise of many Fairy-types such as Primarina and Togekiss. But it should not be dropped from A+. Mixed Stealth Rock sets have become one of my favorites, especially due to having Poison Jab to 2HKO any Fairy-type coming in on a switch. Belly Drum sets are much more rare than in January, but they can still sweep unprepared teams.
IDK

: I haven't used so these, but I have played against it. Mantine is a solid Moltres counter but it is very prone to losing its Heavy-Duty Boots.

 

[BitBitio]

Slate

Agree
A -> A-: Despite its undeniably amazing movepool, its lack of speed often prevents it from using these moves to the effect that it would like. I don't think it should drop any lower then A- for now as teams without an answer to it will find themselves being pummelled to death by its mighty muscles. To sum up, its defiantly worth accounting for in the builder but isn't as defining as Pokémon such as Amoonguss and Krookodile.
Nominations

UR -> A-/B+: Sporting a decent speed, high Attack and access to the move Sacred Fire, I think that Entei at a minimum B+. I've been obsessed with this lion recently and it can deal devistating blows to opposing teams that many cannot recover from. Despite its lacklustre movepool, Entei uses Sacred Fire to spread burns among foes, and can even run Iron Head to bamboozle opposing Sylveon when try try to use Heal Bell.
A- -> S A: I've been using Raikou as a pivot more then I'd care to admit, and I think it deserves a rise. Normally to prevent a VoltTurn team from gaining momentum, opponents send in Ground-Types such as Krookodile and Nidoqueen to block VoltTurn. However, Raikou threatens these switchins with Scald, taking a minimum of 64.6% of Krookodile's HP 252/4/252+ Atk/SpD/Spe) and preventing [252+/4/252 SpA/SpD/Spe] Nidoqueen from checking it. Furthermore, its excellent speed tier allows Raikou to threaten common threats such as Scizor, Primarina, and Keldeo with a 2HKO. If opponents try to switch Amoonguss into Raikou in hopes of forcing a switch, Raikou can bamboozle opponents and has a 94.9% to 2HKO after Stealth Rock. It is for these reasons that I think Raikou should rise to S A.

I think you need replays for UR noms. Maybe I’m wrong haha, just letting you know!

 

[spuds4ever]

Kommo-o A+ -> A: disagree I think Kommo-o is very versatile and definitely shouldn't be dropped. The fact that it doesn't need much HP to be able to survive a 2hko from specs keld's stabs after rocks is a good example of how much weight it can pull defensively even while running an offensive set. If it didn't have so many sets I'd be inclined to agree to drop it but between SD LO, Special, Helmet rocks, belly drum (albeit this is a lesser set) and a very broad movepool that can be adjusted to kill whatever your team needs it to kill makes it firmly A+ for me. I've been running SD LO and it really bangs if you can get it off defensive duties.

Aegislash A -> A+: agree The metagame is in a very offensive place at the minute, if you're not running HO, bulky offense is really the only way to go imo and aegislash epitomises that perfectly. It's a fantastic pivot that can really help you turn a corner in many offensive matchups where you're down a trade and you need a mon that can survive a 2hko and put you ahead. Fantastic typing offensively and defensively, good set variety, subtoxic, specs and SD all demand very different responses (can't vouch for if SD is good though), I'd be almost inclined to put this in S.

Buzzwole A -> A-: disagree Like my metagame comment above, buzzwole is a great pivot for offensive teams, like aegi, it can switch in and survive a 2hko from so much in the meta, even LO mamo can't 2hko 0/0 swole which is a massive deal for offensive teams. Also, like aegi, it is super hard to switch into. I don't know what everyone else is running but CB seems really to be the go-to, super difficult to switch into and 1v1s anything that isn't flying or a fast specs attacker.

Gyarados A- -> A: disagree Gyarados has everything going for it except a strong stab which is a really big thing to miss out on. When facing it, I am very rarely afraid because it has such a hard time OHKOing anything at full health at +1 and thus has a hard time getting moxie going. It does have some incidental advantages over mence, the premier DD sweeper, in that it doesn't mind mamo and scizor, but the lack of a strong STAB means you can just hard switch in your thundurus or meteor beam-er and not worry outside of waterfall flinches.

Nihilego A- -> A: disagree very matchup dependant and just loses you offensive momentum too easily due to it's bad offensive (and defensive for that matter) typing. There are a lot of matchups where it simply won't line up well against any other mons because it doesn't actually counter very much and it's speed tier doesn't quite cut the mustard. Meteor beam has a lot of potential and toxic spikes can be excellent in some matchups but it's too easily forced out, scizor and scarf krook are everywhere and vest glowbro for fatter teams dgaf.

Quagsire B- -> C+: agree metagame hasn't stabilised enough for stall to be good at the minute imo. Think it's fair to put quag where I would put stall as an archetype.

 

[Lily]

Kommo-o is pretty bad rn. It suffers from its defensive set being hot trash against everything in the game, its offensive sets lacking coverage for certain things (drop flame -> lose to scizor, drop jab -> lose to prim, lose to mew either way) and it's just generally not in a good spot outside of setup sets. I think SD is a huge threat and the other sets (mainly clangsoul) are good on screens but it's quite poor overall and really doesn't feel like an A+ rank mon to me when it faces so much competition as a Dragon from Salamence and as a Fighting mon from Keldeo and Buzzwole, struggles against 2 of the biggest 3 threats in the tier, and is generally rife with poor matchups and longevity against the likes of Glowbro, Aegislash, Moltres and whatever else bc of its Speed tier & LO recoil. Use Eject Pack tho that one's good, but this really should fall to A.

I think most of Aegi's sets are kind of middling except for King's Shield + STABs + Toxic w/ SpDef EVs. That one is REALLY good and provides such a sturdy check to a ton of stuff while being super annoying to pivot around without something like a Zarude. I think it should rise to A+ based on that set alone. I don't rate offensive Aegi too highly, SD sets have been reasonably scary but nothing too huge and Band/Specs are good at luring a mon but they don't tend to get too much done after that.

Buzzwole's good at what it does but unfortunately its presence is just not really needed at the moment. Like, look at the entire S -> A ranks - the only physical attackers there are some Scizor, Kommo-o (sometimes), Buzzwole, Krookodile, Rhyperior and Zarude. That isn't a long list and Buzz isn't even a good check to the first two mons at all. Offensive sets are alright, CB can be very difficult to switch into and the raw power of the Boots set with 3atks is still really nice considering its utility isn't terrible either. I don't feel too strongly about it dropping but it does feel more on par with the likes of Nidoqueen to me rn.

Gyarados is broken as long as Light Clay is around. If Light Clay doesn't get banned it should rise, if it does get banned it shouldn't unless it starts showing up on other stuff.

Nihilego is SUPER good! The MBeam set is okay on HOs but god the utility set is soooo good I absolutely love how solid it is against stuff like Salamence, NP Thundies, Rotom-H, both Moltres etc. and nothing really Defogs on it at all so it's just really really good at keeping rocks up. I've been experimenting with Protect in the last slot to scout stuff like CB Scizor, Scarf Krook and also just to get more Black Sludge recovery to make sure it lasts much longer. It should absolutely rise.

Togekiss is whatever, I don't think it's too good but most of the stuff in B+ isn't either sooo sure.

Quag and Mantine should swap for sure, Mantine's really cool rn as a check to Sciz/Keld/Mence/Prim/Molt etc. and Quag's viability is relative to stall's position in the meta which is not great rn.

Couple more things I wanted to add:

Dunno what this guy's doing in A-, by far one of the most terrifying breakers in the tier with immense utility against HO. Incredible alongside spikes and the best mon in the tier is a consistent spiker so the meta is very kind to it rn. Should definitely see a rise to A, it has absolutely zero consistent switch ins outside of stall mons and Helmet Tang which is not in a good spot atm.

I know I've trashed on stall a lot up till now but Chansey balances are really solid atm. Providing a really hard answer to stuff like Prim, special Mence, GMolt, Raikou and whatever else could annoy these teams usually is great and Teleport is a really useful tool too. I've been seeing it a lot more and it certainly feels on par with stuff like Diggersby and Celesteela if not better.

Please raise this guy. Scarf is genuinely very good right now and the other sets are nowhere near as crappy as they used to be. Being a fat fairy resist is really nice in this meta and it can still check stuff like Scizor, Lycanroc etc. while also just always being that annoyance in the back that can cheese a win. It's not great but it should be in A-.

These two are so consistently good on a game-to-game basis and should be in A+ for sure but nobody's ready for that take so I'm not gonna go into it. :sob:

edit: entei good rank him, probably at around B or B+. S- when in nat's hands.

 

[BigFatMantis]

AC Slate-r Discussion:

Discussion Points

Kommo-o A+ -> A: AGREE
Kommo is, I think, very very good. But the problem is that Salamence exists and is more splashable on every type of team, and then you don't really want a second dragon even though they do different jobs entirely. I think if Salamence didn't exist Kommo would be A+ rank, as it is extremely versatile, is a top 3 HO mon imo, and the defensive rocks sets are still good as well as mixed offensive rocks, SD, etc. But, again, Salamence is just so good that you think twice before putting this on your team a lot of times. But A is still a good rank!!!!!

Aegislash A -> A+: AGREE
Almost no viable ghost types in the meta, combined with very few ghost resists, makes this thing a top performer on nearly every team it's put on. The Shield/Shadow Ball/Toxic sets are probably the best and fit most styles of teams, but the HO options are also very good, as Close Combat blows through its usual checks like Zarude/Chansey. Given the versatility to fit extremely powerful Special + Physical moves, as well as the effectiveness of the Shield/Ball/Tox sets, I think this is an easy rise to A+.

Buzzwole A -> A-: AGREE
I am a big fan and big user of Buzz, but it is not A material and is more suitable for A-. It's still very good, particularly it's Roost set and it's Scarf set. I've found the Band set to be too easily revenge KO'd by anything Special though although it's nice to get a hard hit in. Aegislash also pretty much mandates it to use Earthquake on all of its sets to not get totally walled by it, and being locked in EQ is never a good thing. Very good mon, but not quite A. Drop to A-.

Gyarados A- -> A: AGREE
I've used Gyarados on screens w/ clay. I've used it on screens w/o clay. And I've used it without screens at all. It is still threatening on all of those teams and will just run through entire teams that don't have fat Mence or Shieldislash, or a random trick scarfer, and even then it's not easy. Even Lycanroc-D cannot OHKO it with accel from full HP and will need it chipped. It has plenty of opportunities to set up with or without clay, as water/flying is actually not that bad of a defensive typing. It's a crazy mon and should probably even be A+.

Nihilego A- -> A: AGREE
Nihileggo my eggo is premier mons atm. The utility set is such a great switch in to mons like Special Mence, Rotom-H, and Moltres, and gets so many free rocks up and cannot be Toxic'd like Rhyperior. The HO MBeam sets are also still great, and you can even use it on stall teams!!! Realistically the Utility set is the main reason this should rise, but it's versatile enough to be an option on all archetypes. I would even suggest A+.

Togekiss B -> B+: DISAGREE
I'm not a fan of the kiss atm. Things like Rhyperior and literally all electric types can easily beat it. Leftovers Primarina also has little issues with it so I'm not sure why anyone thinks that's a good matchup in favor of Togekiss unless you roll absurd RNG on like 9 air slashes. And Nihilego beats it one on one every time so I'm not really sure how it is messing with it unless you switch in Nihilego on a TWave (Sludge Wave will KO most Togekiss's after minimal chip). B+ is way too high for this thing - I would even say most of the stuff in B rank is already better than this. Use Jirachi if you want a no-fair RNG abuse mon.

Quagsire B- -> C+: DISAGREE
I have seen more stall on the ladder lately and have built some stall teams myself, and Quagsire is one of the better options on all of them. I think the playstyle is starting to re-emerge from its nest as people have discovered how to manipulate these fatter mons. Dropping it C+ isn't the worst thing in the world, but I think you will end up rising it up again in a month if you do.

Mantine C+ -> B-/B DISAGREE
Mantine is definitely the best Keldeo check - but outside of that I think other things check mons much better than this does. Moltres is a better check for Scizor. Nihilego (and lots of other things) are better checks for Moltres and Mence, and offensively this guy just kinda fishes for Scald burns or dies like Laevin pointed out. It also loses to Nihilego so that's one less rocker it cannot beat. Being a great Keldeo check is definitely worthy of putting this at C+, but that's where niche mons belong, and it shouldn't rise any higher than that. Also loses to most things it "checks" if they run Toxic.

OTHER NOMS:


Entei UR -> C+
This should have probably been ranked already and I'm sure it will be on the next update so I won't say much, other than that it's a very good Band option w/ ESpeed and also has some utility as a boots user as well. I wouldn't overhype it just yet though - going UR to B- or higher is tempting but may be an overreaction ATM, so we should see more of it play out before really catapulting it.


Lycanroc-D A- -> A/A+
I am really as shocked as Lily in why this is still A-. It's probably the best anti-HO mon (better at it than Scizor because of Gyarados/Mence/Gmolt existing), and even outside of facing HO it is such a threat to literally every single Pokemon in the tier. You would need to basically run a Defensive Buzzwole to have a "safe" switch in that takes only 40% damage from PFangs, or a defensive Tangrowth that doesn't fit on a lot of teams anymore. That's two switch-ins (uncommon ones) in the entire tier. Raise this dog.


Zarude A -> A-
Zarude is good but the amount of easy switch ins it has makes it a bit underwhelming at times. Salamence, Amoonguss, Moltres, are all common mons that can just click in whenever this thing is on the field, and two of those cause Zarudee to risk helmet chip/burn. It also can't really touch Buzzwole or Tangrowth. Even Kommo-o is a challenge. That is A LOT of mons that safely answer this (there's more too but I just took the most common ones). I think people just sort of "like" Zarude, but the flaws to me are very obvious and while it's still a good mon, it doesn't belong with its A peers and is more suitable for an A- rank.


Raikou A- -> B+
When the new VRs first came out post-shifts, I was a big fan of the Raikou and thought it should immediately rise to B. But now that it's A- I think we have overhyped it a bit. The CM set is now more of a MU Fish than ever. The pivot set is good, but Thundurus pivots better and has access to Knock Off, and Rotoms are also better pivots usually with more utility. It's still a great, fast mon, and I think B+ still is a spot for great mons.


Noivern A- -> B+/Not Server Icon
Noivern blows use Mence.

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

I do not think entei should rise to C+, probably C/C-. Entei suffers problems as being weak to rocks and the tier not having the best removal, yeah sacred fire is hell for anyone and its strong asf but factoring rocks its not going to be switching in a lot and its gonna be forced out by mence, rotom-wash, and kommo-o. Yeah, if it is brought in on a free switch it can get a free kill to burning something but that is an if. I feel like zygarde-10% is just a better breaker with better speed, a good stab which hits the entire tier and outspeeds crucial targets such as nihilego, lycanroc-d, keldeo, and thundurus-t, and thundurus-t

 

[Chicknemacnchez]

I do not think entei should rise to C+, probably C/C-. Entei suffers problems as being weak to rocks and the tier not having the best removal, yeah sacred fire is hell for anyone and its strong asf but factoring rocks its not going to be switching in a lot and its gonna be forced out by mence, rotom-wash, and kommo-o. Yeah, if it is brought in on a free switch it can get a free kill to burning something but that is an if. I feel like zygarde-10% is just a better breaker with better speed, a good stab which hits the entire tier and outspeeds crucial targets such as nihilego, lycanroc-d, keldeo, and thundurus-t, and thundurus-t

I don't think you should be comparing Entei to Zydog. 1. they have a completely different targets. Does Zygarde-10% spreads burns semi-reliably? Also Chandelure is a rocks weak breaker and look at that before shifts. 2. It can beat Scizor. Zygarde-10% just dies. 3. Higher attack stat. 4. Sleep abosrber, it has the open move slot with Sacred Fire / Stone Edge / Extreme Speed / Filler. Also your talking about Entei stuggling to get a free swicth but youre comparing it to zydog... I can't argue with the speed tier though, it is amazing. I'd say B

 

[iceblazer]

a+ -> a, disagree
The clanger is still easily the most versatile threat in the tier, and so, I heavily disagree with a drop. Clang Soul sets are still very dangerous on Screens and Balance, BD is a surprisingly effective sweeper as most players expect to face Clang Soul sets and don’t adequately prepare for it, and defensive/offensive rocks are great at compressing roles. Yes, while the rise in Prim and other Fairies hurt the Clanger’s viability a tiny bit, even they must watch out for a surprise Flash Cannon or Poison Jab. Simply put, I believe that it’s too versatile and effective at the moment to drop.

a -> a+, agree
Aegi LOVES the new meta trends as of lately. Steel/Ghost has always been a fantastic typing, but it's recently hit its peak, walling Nihilego, non-Kasib Glowbro, Cobalion, murder dog, and many more threats. SubTox is incredibly annoying for teams without cleric support to handle, while newer sets such as Specs & SD Weakness Policy behind screens have proven their worth. Aegi also provides extremely worthwhile role compression for a team, being a Fairy-type check, Nihilego check, Fighting-type check, and a Poison-type check all in one slot. You can’t really go wrong with slapping Aegi on a team, and that’s why I believe that it should rise.

a -> a-, disagree
Gonna have to agree with laevin here. While it’s true that Buzz has an awkward speed tier and faces competition as a Fighting and Bug mon, I believe that it still has a number of things going for it. Its defensive prowess is a massive boon for more offensive teams, as it cockblocks any kind of physical attacker, even without any sort of investment. It‘s a Krook, Mienshao, Mamo & and murder dog switchin, which is invaluable for Offense. Buzz is also more versatile than people think; while the tried-and-true CB set is still an absolute pain to switch into, there’s a variety of other sets Buzz can run. Scarf is a surprisingly good revenge killer by virtue of the surprise factor involved, and 3 Attacks + Roost is a fine alternative for bulkier teams that don’t need the immediate breaking power of CB. While it does have a couple of poor MUs, such as against the Molt & Thundy duo, those aren’t too hard to patch up, as Buzz pairs up well with the special walls that can take them on.

a- -> a, agree
This thing is a pain for a bulkier teams to face, and people are starting to recognize that. Meteor Beam sets are hard to stop once they get going unless you have a dedicated special wall, only made better by Chansey’s decline and Amoonguss being phased out in favor of AV Tang. Nihil’s speed tier has increased in value as of recently, being faster than the ever popular Thundy-T and Moltres and smacking them with Power Gem is mighty useful for many teams. And while I haven’t personally used utility Nihilego, I’ve heard good things about it and it seems like a decent rocker that can keep up its hazards by virtue of its offensive presence and typing.

a- -> a, agree
Screens good = Gyara good. Not much to say that hasn’t already been said by others.

b- -> c+, agree
On the flipside, stall bad = Quag bad. Quag just doesn’t do its job as a wall good enough when every wallbreaker either can overpower it or has Grass coverage to bop it.

b -> b+
c+ -> b-/b, abstain
No comment on these, haven’t used them.

 

[haxlolo]

heyo

to A: Unsure

Kommo has been having a weird time on this meta. While the rise of some steels like Aegislash or Jirachi that eat the offensive rock set if Poison Jab, the same happens with Primarina if it's Flamethrower. Primarina and Mew being the best mons in the meta rn doesn't really help it too much either. On the other side, screens are probably at the top of the ladder, with Clanger as one of the premier sweepers on it, it's good on them, so I'm not that sure. Probably leaning for disagreeing, but whatever the other people say.

to A-: Disagree

Buzzwole isn't at its best atm, but it definitely is still A worthy in my opinion. 3 Attacks + Roost has a very good offensive presence, while band also can be really good. If you want, you can use it as a Bulk Up wincon, or even as a defensive wall for all of the physical offensive threats we have like Mamoswine, Scizor, Crawdaunt, etc. While yes, it has a really bad matchup with every special attacker thanks to its miserable special bulk, it's still good and can threaten them with their STABs. The speed tier is really weird, but it's not THAT bad and can even slap a Choice Scarf to fix it.

to A+: Agree

broken sword. or shield. My man has been benefitting a lot on this meta thanks to it being a good stop for stuff like Nihilego, Choice-locked Buzzwole/No speed Buzzwole and more importantly Glowbro. Even if Glowbro is Kasib, if it's Scald and not Flamethrower it pretty much can't touch it that much. SubTox is such an annoying set, subbing on a lot of stuff, threatening them with a Shadow Ball and then being able to Toxic whatever switches in. With King's Shield and Substitute this thing can even become unkillable by some physical attackers. Specs is also very good, with the little to no ghost resists we have in this tier that doesn't take a huge amount to Close Combat, having also Flash Cannon for other stuff. It also has a lot of other sets that it can take advantage of like Swords Dance, Autotomize and 2 Attacks. While the speed tier it's in can be pretty annoying being outsped by a lot of stuff, it finds various opportunities to switch-in and even so it's pretty bulky in shield form. Definitely Top 6 in this meta.

to A: Depends

If Screens get nerfed it should remain A- unless some other set starts becoming popular (low chance). If not then broken snake

to A: Agree

Nihilego is so good, it's a very good Stealth Rock Setter that threatens the best defogger we have, Salamence, with powerful STABs and a good uninvested special bulk. It also has various support moves in Knock Off and Toxic Spikes that can become quite useful. Meteor Beam is also so good and it can easily 6-0 unprepared teams, even those who only have priority as their Nihilego check such as Scizor and Azumarill. Even though Aegislash and Jirachi rising in popularity, it is pretty damn good

to C+: Agree

please dont use stall

 

[Band]

Dunno what this guy's doing in A-, by far one of the most terrifying breakers in the tier with immense utility against HO. Incredible alongside spikes and the best mon in the tier is a consistent spiker so the meta is very kind to it rn. Should definitely see a rise to A, it has absolutely zero consistent switch ins outside of stall mons and Helmet Tang which is not in a good spot atm.

Wanna give my support for this nom here. I was gonna mention it in my post but forgot oops. But I definitely think lycan is extremely good now, it's amazing to pressure gyarados and prevent it from setting up dd freely, pressures top tier mence, as lily said, it loves spikes meta and lacks consistent switch-ins, ESPECIALLY for Close Combat, that shit hits hard as fuuuuck. Psy fangs is a nice bonus that hits clanger and buzz harder than cc and shits on screens too, so that's cool ig.

These two are so consistently good on a game-to-game basis and should be in A+ for sure but nobody's ready for that take so I'm not gonna go into it. :sob:

free A+ moltres

 

[notsotryharding33]

A to A+ : AGREE
I fully 100% agree with the nomination of Aegislash from A to A+. Not only has it benefited from the April Tier shifts, it's also gained viability due to the presence of HO being so great rn. SD + Weakness Policy sets rn are just about as good as ever, and the natural versatility of it in being capable of running others like Specs, and Sub Toxic is amazing. Even things like Umbreon, Incineroar, and Zarude have to be wear of CC when attempting to check Aegi. Overall Aegislash is a top-tier mon, and almost broken one in UU. I would be fine with even a rise to S as it's one of the best pokemon in the tier imo, being able to shift from being an offensive mon, to a defensive mon, based on it's roleplay. And it's as about as splashable as ever. Aegislash deserves this raise.

A+ to A : DISAGREE
I'm gonna have to disagree on this one big time. Whether defensive Kommo-o is falling off, or whether it's massively facing comeptition between a rocker in Krookodile and defensive expert in Salamence, not only has HO and screens risen and developed, so as it's offensive potential. As mentioned before Clangorous Soul Kommo-o is a major threat rn, if not just a straight up monster. As long as it has the perfect coverage moves the whole tier fears it. Not to mention that Sub Belly Drum can also be used in place of it. Kommo'o's offensive potential is something I personally believe should be looked in to more as a whole, and it does not deserve to drop at all. Like said no matter Kommo'os defensive stance in the metagame, it's pretty clear that it's offensive potential is threatening in the metagame, and dropping it due to this isn't reasonable imo.

A- to A: AGREE
Agreed. Gyarados for the most part is a very fearsome wallbreaker with near perfect coverage with stabs + power whip. The utilization of Heavy Duty boots, a decent defensive typing and 95/79/100 overall bulk isn't that bad for a sweeper. The real main thing holding Gyarados back from the throne imo is the fact that it's missing a good enough flying stab or Z-Move. Gyarados has seemingly surged in both usage and strength due to the popularity of screens rn, and this is benefited by it. Not to mention some of the pokemon we lost in April kind of helped it. Overall Gyarados has proved itself a menace on HO and it's something to be wary of.

A- to A: AGREE
I've seen the threat of Nihilego on numerous occasions with it's powerful special attack stat + Meteor Beam shenanigans as well as the fact that it can setup rocks and be fast. I think Nihilego fits on many team archetypes and therefore a raise to A is perfectly reasonable and fine. As we are seeing checks like Aegislash and others trend more throughout the meta, this is still a great pick nonetheless.

A to A- : UNSURE
Buzzwhole admittedly does face competition from Scizor as a bulky magnet as it has a better typing defensively and has more reasonable mixed bulk, and options in SD and Knock Off being really potent, and the fact that Moltres has dropped, and checks like Amoonguss, Kommo-o, and Prim are present but at the same time it has a great niche of not only checking dangerous attackers, but being potentially one itself via Choice Band. I personally feel mixed, and I'm not sure if it's deserving of a drop due to being just a great solid physical wall, and having a decent offensive presence.

 

[Adaam]

Posting from my phone so excuse the lack of eloquence. I would drop Prim to A+. It suffered the same hype Keldeo did when the same things that stop Keldeo mostly stop Prim. Amoong, Tang, AV Gbro hard stop all sets (Specs can make progress but requires multiple turns to break through + clicking the correct STAB). The lack of speed is a real limiting factor as it’s almost always taking a hit before firing one back, meaning your 47% Prim is a lot less useful than a 47% Keldeo. Not to mention its stonewalled by Chansey, doesn’t resist Bullet Punch, and outsped by Mew. It’s really good but does not compare to our other S ranks.

Speaking of, Aegislash has solidified itself as a top tier threat. It should be S tier alongside Mew and Scizor on the basis of its SpDef set with King’s Shield, Shadow Ball, Toxic, and Sub/Flash Cannon. Running no Ghost-resist opens the door for playing behind in the Aegi MU, as Shadow Ball + Toxic is a fantastic progress maker. Granted you don’t *need* a literal resist. It’s countered by Celesteela and various fat Rest users like Primarina, but they might not hold up as well against the less popular Spell Tag/Specs sets. Aegi’s biggest problem is that hitting it super effectively isn’t that tall a task, with everything running Dark/Fire coverage on their Scizors and Mews and Lycanrocs for it. Nonetheless, it uses its Shield form’s bulk well enough to almost always force favorable trades, so S rank reflects how powerful it is.

Thundy-T in A+ rank is too high...it’s a strong breaker with NP but the Volt Immunity is hard to justify over being outsped by Lycanroc, Zarude, Nihilego, and Keldeo. Even Cobalion can chip it down a bit. A or even A- is better fit.

I am high on Amoonguss right now with Spore being underprepared for once more. It seems like Safety Goggles + Amoonguss usage is like the predator-prey interaction of Arctic hares and wolves. I don’t think it should rise but just putting this out here since many think it’s ass. Tang is probably better still being able to consistently stop Lycan + Psychic Thundurus while also faring better against Mew.

Buzzwole should stay A on the basis of LO Roost. I’ve only seen people use defensive or CB, but LO outclasses Conk as Fighting type that has no switch ins. Only Buzz has recovery and great defensive utility in checking almost any physical attacker. Outspeeding stuff like Prim, Nido, and Aegi is such a nice trait to have.

Kou/Vern/Chandy should drop to B. They’re not that good.

Lastly LOOOOOOOL Darm in C but Entei unranked we are so bad. Put Entei in B or something please

 

[Twilight]

Rise to S/S-
This Pokemon is still ridiculously consistent at what it does since the first time it dropped. Its dual coverage of Scald and Sludge Bomb on Calm Mind sets spreads status so quickly that it's a self-supporting Pokemon capable of requiring little to no support to pull off a sweep. Regenerator lets you play pretty carelessly with it to fish for these opportunities making it extremely difficult to wear down effectively. It has the flexibility to pretty much run any item it wants on CM sets to combat what is required (Shuca, Colbur, Boots, Safety Goggles, etc.) making it even harder to reliably revenge kill. AV sets are starting to get a bit more usage to capitalize on its pivoting abilities and patch up the mediocre SpD stat. You have the Quick Claw cheese too, which you may run into on HO. This mon is busted and should be ranked higher.

Rise to A
I fail to see why Rotom-W isn't the same rank as Rotom-H. Rotom-W is very efficient at gaining momentum with only Seismitoad and Gastrodon being capable of preventing it from pivoting, both of which not being the most common of mons. While you are likely to run into a Grass-type on a vast majority of teams, Will-O-Wisp is a good enough means to cripple them over the course of a game. If you are running it as your hazard remover then it has a favourable matchup against a majority of the tier's SR setters. Both Rotom formes are interchangeable depending on what you value more and so should be ranked equally.

Rise to A-/A
I think Jirachi is one of the best scarfers in the tier and would rise it solely for this reason. While it only has one slot to work with when it comes to coverage you can easily pick and choose what you value more, e.g. Thunder Punch for Gyarados and Keldeo, Fire Punch for Scizor, Zen Headbutt for Kommo-o, Amoonguss, Keldeo etc. Offensive SR sets are great on BO/HO teams and I've had success with SubToxic. I'm personally not a fan of passive sets like Wish Jirachi but it does have these options at its disposal.

Rise to A
Pretty difficult to wall this Pokemon with how great its coverage is on top of how hard it hits. Great Speed tier puts it above stuff like Keldeo and Salamence and its got priority to deal with Thundurus. It's def good enough to be put in A.

Drop to A
Said it from the start Thundy-I > Thundy-T

Drop to A
I don't find Kommo-o to be as good or scary as others have described. It's still a very flexible Pokemon but I don't think this metagame favours it all that much with stuff like Mew, Primarina, AV Glowbro, etc. getting a good amount of usage. It has some defensive utility but the only Pokemon it reliably walls are the Rotom formes and Zarude, which they just pivot out against. Stuff like Thundurus, Aegislash, Nihilego, Scizor will all overwhelm it pretty quickly. Salamence also gives it a lot of competition as a Dragon-type, which is a much better Pokemon overall.

Drop lower
Agree with these dropping. Raikou just struggles with the AV Tangrowth usage but it still has a niche of being faster than Lycanroc-D. Noivern's Speed tier is nice and all but I'd rather use Salamence 99% of the time.

Drop to B-
Reuni just faces too much competition from Glowbro to still be sitting in B+. Its AV set is the best set it can run and even then Glowbro can also fulfil this role. CM sets have issues because the standard Psychic + Fighting coverage leaves you stonewalled by Aegislash and again faces competition from Glowbro. Reuniclus most defining trait has always been its a CM wincon that can't be worn down by Toxic/hazards but Glowbro can also achieve this thanks to its typing, Regenerator, and item choice.

UR
Why are both Indeedee and Indeedee-F ranked? I can understand Indeedee-F providing utility with HW for those terrain HO teams but what niche does male Indeedee really have. You can make a case for Choice Specs but there are better offensive Psychic-types to use. Seems like a stretch to keep it ranked to me.

Agree with these rising:

Rank this in B-/B:

 

[ausma]

Hi there! I'm not really too much of a UU player anymore but I would like to vocalize support of Zarude to A+.

In recent weeks experimenting with the tier and trying to get some degree of understanding of it, Zarude in my eyes is a Pokemon with incredible defensive role compression with Ghost-, Dark-, Ground-, and Electric-type resistances, a fantastic speed tier, and a brutal dual STAB combination that all make it a really great offensive pivot and option for speed control with its Scarf variant. It's been incredibly consistent, and a Pokemon that heavily spearheads offenses that lack effective Electric-type, Aegislash, and Krookodile counterplay with its solid defensive typing and maddening natural bulk. On top of this, access to Close Combat can be really helpful too from my experience, safely smacking things like Cobalion or opposing Zarude that may attempt to take advantage of its dual STABs for a switch-in opportunity; U-turn, though, is always an amazing middle ground option and can be amazing in positioning monstrous wallbreakers like Chandelure against Tangrowth, while maintaining momentum, and the exploitable targets it pivots against is hugely what defines its unique niche as a U-turn pivot alongside its bulk and defensive typing.

Additional access to options like Jungle Healing and Bulk Up also make it a really strong win condition, too, which takes great advantage of Pokemon like Raikou and Krookodile with its great bulk and defensive typing in order to find rather great setup opportunities. Although it requires a bit of prior overload against Kommo-o and Cobalion, since it slots off Close Combat, its dual STAB combination is only really checked by a small handful of Pokemon in the tier, alongside boasting a great speed tier as well to make it all the better at cleaning. Once it starts getting Bulk Up boosts going, U-turn from anything not named Scizor becomes, for the most part, a non-issue, too. Given Zarude's speed tier to bat, getting several isn't necessarily a tall order either.

To me, Zarude is a Pokemon that defines a lot of the offenses I've experimented with and seen in the tier. Even if it needs a bit of support and struggles to keep up the momentum against U-turn, the amount that it gives in return with its rather great, one-of-a-kind attributes is legitimately stellar and invaluable for offenses.

I also support rising Lycanroc-Dusk, which is an insane wallbreaker with very little defensive counterplay thanks to Tough Claws-boosted Close Combat and its maddening coverage, requiring revenge killing to really keep it in check, or sacking a Pokemon to safely position a defensive check. Being able to rip apart a lot of the tier's defensive proponents is really awesome, especially given how speed control options can be easily exploited with Accelerock. Additionally, naturally outrunning Keldeo, Zarude, and Salamence is really nifty, and it even boasts great priority to check Thundurus-Incarnate and Noivern which would take advantage of it otherwise. I've always been a major Lycanroc-Dusk enthusiast and it's cool to see it finally seeing the limelight again with Terrakion gone.

 

[Ojbros]

Grimmsnarl and Ninetails-Alola: A- and B+ to lower
With the light clay ban, these mons take a hit. I am not saying screens is fully dead or anything, but these mons and their screens are no longer going to be as defining as they previously were.

 

[Estarossa]

Been meaning to write a post in here for like a week now, the influx of posts has given me a good reason to do this now so.

Aegislash A -> A+ agree

Aegi is definitely picking up hugely atm. SubTox sets have already been discussed in length but offer nice defensive utility and are incredibly difficult to switch around long term without one of the few hard counters, eg. Boots Zarude. What really makes Aegi a premier mon in the tier for me is the great versatility in its sets, Choice Specs sets are much rare lately but heavily punish a lot of structures such as those using Glowbro, while Weakness Policy sets aree fantastic on offense. SD sets have alreeady been discussed by Avarice but I also love Autotomize sets atm, they provide a great short term switch in to Mew for offensive teams that otherwise have a lot of difficulty doing so, not caring about Burns hugely due to flash cannon still solidly damaging mons like Krook, while actively enjoying being Knocked and having a nice ability to clean up if necessary.

Aegi's versatility + offensive presence and ability to get around all of its checks with different sets is amaing atm, and its blend of offensive and deefensive properties is super handy for both offensive and more balancd teams alike. It's definitely a top 4-5 Pokemon in the tier atm and deserves to be in A+.

Nihilego A- -> A agree

Nihilego is absolutely amazing in the tier right now. Meteor Beam sets are extremely threatening and serve as one of the scariest win cons and breakers in the tier right now; it nearly always claims at least one kill unless facing a spdef aegislash, with some of its better checks like offensive aegislash or scizor being unable to switch in directly, (offensive aegi gets OHKOd by Meteor beam -> tbolt). The recent exploration of Psychic terrain offenses has made it even more scary, removing Scizor and other priority users like Mamoswine / Azumarill from its counterplay list, and it really shines as one of the key components of these teams.

Utility sets of Nihilego are also amazing though, and one of Nihi's biggest boons is that it just fits on practically all types of teams from HO to Stall because of this. I dont really drink the Protect cool aid very much, while in theory it sounds nice, one of the biggest things about Utility nihilego for me is its extremely high value Knock Off target list that nothing else can really claim equal to - Aegislash, Scizor, AV Glowbro, Chansey, Jirachi, to name a few. Nihilego really forces progress this way with both its great remover matchups and high value knocks, while checking threats like Mence / Molt / Thundy-T.

A+ -> A agree

Talking of Thundy-T, I wholeheartdly agree with this and have been saying this for a long time in the vr chat etc. While Thundy-T is a dangerous breaker and its electric immunity is nice, Thundurus really just has a key advantage in its speed in this meta, being faster than Pokemon like Nihilego, Zarude, and Keldeo is such high value, as all of these Pokemon are very common. This simply lets it put in progress much more easily than Therian can do earlier in a match, and Incarnates mixed sets also give it some more diversity.

A- -> B+/B agree

another one I agree on and have discussd at length on Discord with people. Raikou was simply too overhyped at first, SubCM sets were cool for a while (pre the start of UUFPL roughly) but suffer hugely from the use of AV Tang and Zarude and just require way too much team support to really desire using, since both of these are ridiculously hard to wear down for it.

Boots pivot sets still have some value due to the fantastic speed tier + ability to hit Rhyp and act as a decent check to Lycan/Thundies, but Raikou is simply an awkwrd Pokemon with it being unable to really check Pokemon like Salamence and Scizor unlike its Electric brethren and underwhelming bulk. There isn't really a huge number of teams where you really actually go "Raikou would be a good fit here".

A- -> A agree

Twilight already explained this one really well, but it should absolutely be in the same rank as Rotom-H, they are often fairly interchangeable, Rotom-W has a much nicer matchup versus rockers and less knock off weakness if it wants to go the Defog route though, at the cost of being poor versus Scizor and being weaker vs grass types, its very much a team dependent thing which one you want, and non Defog sets are still fantastic withtheir ability to check a bunch o Pokemon like Salamence and get chip damage + status on tang.

B+ -> A- agree

Jirachi has gained a fair amount of value for some of its sets again lately, although its defensive sets are still fairly awful. Scarf sets as mentioned by others are really nice atm, Healing Wish is absolutely huge utility and basically makes games 7-6 if played well, while its still extremely threatening with Serene Grace shenanigans and has the ability to nicely revenge Thundies / DD Mence / DD Gyara too depending on its choice of coverage move. This alone would be enough ofr me to want to rank it higher, but other sets such as SubTox and Meteor Beam are all threatening in their own right too. Its coverage really shines atm on these sort of sets, and you can definitely play around with stuff like offensive ebelt or offensive rocks on offensive teams too.

C -> C+

Psychic terrain has been getting a lot more exploration lately on ladder and in tournaments like DPL and UUFPL. Its really turned into a valid form of offense itself instead of being just a matchup fish, thanks to the incredibly dangerous potential of Pokemon like Necrozma, Nihilego, and Polteageist on these teams. I won't link alll versions i've used, and most of them do follow similar structures, but this is one of the ones we used in UUFPL https://pokepast.es/e83db5e6778acfbb, featuring deadly DD Necrozma backed up by Psychic terrain.

Indeedee-Female is obviously the cornerstone of these sort of builds, and is definitely much better than Male versions due to Healing Wish support, which is of huge value to these sort of offensive teams.

C -> C+

I actually didn't vote to rise this for once on the last slate, unlike a few other people who did, shocking basically everyone. After playing more with fatter teams lately again though, I definitely see Umbreon as considerably better than the stuff in the C ranks. It offers some unique value to these sort of defensive teams or a bunch of reasons, some key examples of which are below -

Gyarados answer (awfully rare for fat teams now) that can't be flinched down, Aegislash check and Taunt Chandy answer, SD Knock Scizor counter (covering nicely for teammates like Moltres that cover the U-turn Scizor matchup), NP mew check.

It's unique set of traits and utility combined with Wish passing makes it an absolutely invaluable part of these defensive teams, and it was recently included in a stall sample team too.




On the Glowbro topic that Twi brought up, I definiteely see Glowbro as one of the best Pokemon in the entire tier and for sure broken, its Sludge + Scald combination is extremely punishing to switch into and it puts in so much progress throughout the early-to-mid game through this + Regenerator and its bulk, while still being an amazing win condition too. Its super customisable EV spread and item slot really make it have very few safe answers to it with options like Cobur / Shuca / Kasib all being viable options to screw over would be checks like Crawdaunt / Mamoswine / Specs Aegi, while Safety goggles is also a fantastic letting it take advantage o Amoonguss constantly for ffree entry. This is only worsened by the possibility of it being a Flamethrower + Psyshock set that'll one shot your Scizor or beat your opposing Calm Mind Glowbro.

On the other hand AV sets are also really great atm at scouting stuf off of Pokemon like Keldeo / Primarina, and having great offensive presence and Future Sight support, making it a fantastic offensive pivot with Regenerator. QCQD sets should probably die off a lot now with Screens gone, but add an extra layer to the mon as a Cheese option.

I don't know where I'd actually rank this, but I definitely see Mew, Primarina, Glowbro, Scizor, Aegislash as the top 5 Pokemon in the tier currently and a bit above the rest in the A+ ranks, (roughly in that order but could swap Scizor / Aegi depending on how I feel). I personally feel like Mew is so far above the rest that it should be in S rank on its own. Wouldn't be opposed to seeing Glowbro in S- at all atm, with Sciz / Aegi staying at top of A+.

 

[Chicknemacnchez]

to S-/A+

Don't get me wrong, Scizor is excellent, but I don't think It's up there with Mew. I just think the meta has adapted to it too much. Keldeo, Aegislash, fires, Intimidate, and especially Moltres all hinder it too much. Every team needs one but it feels so useless with one of those. Also with the Light Clay ban, its utilities are a lot less useful for building. Bullet Punch is good, but not as good as it was with screens.

to A+

I love this thing. Scizor counter, Fighting resist, and defogger is great. While it does not like Knock Off, but 30% of the time your opponents will regret it. It hates Nihilego on the rise but few things can switch into Moltres. I think offensive U-turn sets are the best right now, and that fire typing is incredibly useful.

to A

STAB's + Knock Off are really difficult to switch into. Meteor Beam sets are also great and Toxic Spikes can be devastating in the right match-up. Being a hazard stacker that beat Hatterene is also incredible. I don't think I have to touch on this too much since the posts above me go into more detail than me.

to A

Hands down the toughest pokemon in the tier to wall. The priority and the priority typing are excellent for Gyarados, Salamence, Thundurus forms, Moltres-G, and more. Psychic Fangs complements the coverage way to well and basically makes it walled by Aegislash and Rocky Helmet Tangrowth. Now being walled by Aegislash sucks but it can live with it. Crunch is also an option but I think Close Combat / Accelerock / Stone Edge / Psychic Fangs is the most dangerous set by far.

to S-

This thing is impossible to beat if it has the right berry. Being able to turn a teams "check" on it's head is ridiculous. You just have to hope and pray that it doesn't have 1 of Shuca Berry, Colbur Berry, or Safety Goggles. If it has one of these you can lose so much momentum so fast. Even if you manageto kill it, you probably have a teammate dead that was vital to your win. i.e Krookodile dies because of Shuca and you lose to Gyarados. AV sets also provide and amazing Moonblast switch-in, while also putting the opposing team in a hard place with Future Sight.

to A

Little of a hot take for the Incarnate-form, but A+ is a little to high. I feel like both have a potency to be revenge killed by every priority bar Bullet Punch and Mach Punch. Incarnate's speed tier is nice, but I like it doesn't matter with all the priority flying around. I'm not trying to downplay it's niche in the Meta and I love using it, but it's not on Keldeo/Tangrowth/Salamence level.

to A

Teleport sets are incredible offensive weapons against the meta against other offense. It forces a ton of switches and dangerous breakers run wild. Great check to both Thundurus Forms, Primarina, Nidoqueen and more. Toxic is really annoying to deal with especially with the rarity of clerics. Letting Aegislash in for free but it can stall out sub toxic. An arguement could be made for A- but I think A is good.

Other noms I supprort:
Down
Down
Down
Up
Up
Up
B
Down

 

[viet noa]

to B- (maybe lower? idk)
Light Clay got banned recently, and so the best screens setter is obviously going to not enjoy having its main item banned. I’m pretty sure screens can still be taken advantage of, as it only takes a few turns for many sweepers to set up, but losing Light Clay is still a pretty big loss for it. I don’t quite think it’ll be useless ~ Aurora Veil sets could likely continue on with Boots/Icy Rock over Light Clay, and it still has the utility of Encore + Hypnosis. There’s also the chance for Nasty Plot to have an ever-so-slight niche due to +2 Blizzard/Freeze-Dry having alright damage output & great coverage.

It’s a bit hard to judge Alolan Ninetales’s viability without Light Clay, because it’s been its go-to item for as long as we can remember. So it might be a lot worse than I personally think, but it might be better than what I think. It is what it is.

 

[KM]

--> C+

I know I'm the only person in the entire tier who uses this, but I just wanted to quickly note that Guzzlord (specifically the Knock / Dtail / Resttalk set which imo is the only viable one) has gotten a lot better with recent metagame shifts. Let's discuss a few!

Guzzlord's main selling point is as a counter to defensive / special Aegislash. While all sorts of sets were running around in the first few weeks after it dropped, most players have settled on either Sub Toxic or Flash Cannon Toxic (with Shadow Ball and KS in the other two slots). Guzzlord handily walls both of these sets, taking about 13% from Shadow Ball and 26% from flash cannon, and threatening back with Knock Off that will cripple Aegi for the entire game and breaks subs even with several attack drops. Rest sponges off Toxic damage.

I can't stress enough how huge this niche is right now. Changing Toxic Aegislash from something that's extremely hard to switch into and requires sacrificing / clicking correctly to avoid either status or heavy damage into something that reverses momentum to your side is huge. Aegislash has seen a large spike in usage recently -- partly to account for the uptick in offensive rock-types, but also because it's phenomenal in its own right once people stopped running the garbage sets.

Guzzlord also benefits a lot from the Light Clay ban -- i won't get into it too much, but running a RestTalk tank against screen teams is pretty depressing -- you can potentially phase with Dragon Tail but outside of that you're basically set-up fodder. Screens getting worse and dropping in popularity helps Guzzlord a lot, whose best matchup is against bulkier teams and stall teams.

Next, Nihilego has seen a resurgence recently, with Black Sludge sets taking the forefront. Guzzlord also deals with these tremendously, taking a maximum of about 29% from sludge wave and threatening knock / d tail in return. All the other things that made it excellent still apply -- it takes Specs Surfs and Hydro Pumps like nobody's business, it switches into Amoonguss (which has also seen a usage resurgence!) and AV Tang with ease, it walls non-focus blast thunduruses, and it shits on nearly every Slowbro-Galar and Mew set imaginable.

The final point i want to bring up is Guzzlord's excellent matchup against Stall. On the most basic level, Guzzlord can stay in on almost anything and click Knock Off against the entire team. Dragon Tail is also extremely useful for surprising Wish Umbreon stall variants and creating tricky situations and 50/50s. Although it's not as easy to outright sweep with it, running Guzzlord against stall feels very similar to running RestTalk Moltres-Galar -- with the added bonus of not losing to Nihilego variants.

I realize that most of this is a hard sell because you all have to take my word for it -- but on that note I strongly urge all of you to try it out. It's a great catch-all glue for teams and has a lot of surprising perks you won't even realize until you play around with it (blocking Thundurus defog?? walling crawdaunt and alolawak? getting a surprise knock off sweep because of beast boost?) Here's the set I use!

Hide

Guzzlord @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Knock Off
- Dragon Tail

 

[Monky25]

Post Screens VR Update
With the recent ban of light clay by the UU council, it is no secret that the viability of plenty Pokemon has changed. Going to give some of my own screen related nominations, second a lot of the nominations expressed in the thread since I last posted, and even drop some discussion points to spark some new conversation. Now, lets get to it.​

My own nominations

to C/UR: Grimmsnarl's viability has basically been ruined by the screens ban. Screens are no longer up for long, not to mention it needs to get up two screens over two turns in addition to blocking defog attempts. Rises of glowbro, aegislash, primarina, and nihilego also dont do it any favors. So, where does this leave grimmsnarl? Frankly, I'm not too sure myself. I've seen offensive sets utilize its solid typing alongside BU RestTalk sets, but neither are too particularly strong. I've fought grimmsnarl on light clay less screens and needless to say it sucks. I lean toward C since screens aren't COMPLETELY dead just yet and has those other sets I've mentioned, but I don't think Grimmsnarl belongs outside of the C ranks.

to B-/C+: like Grimmsnarl, most of alolan ninetales' viability was killed by the light clay ban. However, its better off than our hairy friend due to its ability to set two screens in one with aurora veil, giving one extra turn to a sweeper to set up. It also can run boots now to come in more and set screens. I don't think its great or anything but B-/C+ feels like a good place for it.

to UR: Lool wtf does this do now that screens are dead, get unranked doodo bird. On a serious note, its niche derived from dual screens+ magic bounce+ teleport, but since screens are dead I don't think this is worth ranking

- these two aren't really "my own" nominations but Id like to say that I've changed by stance on my previous post with the ban actually happening. I think kommo-o should drop to A and gyarados remain A-. I said this in my last post but even though most clanger sets are danger, screens being heavily nerfed definitely makes kommo-o worse. It doesn't live as many hits without screens and doesn't find its most dangerous sets on common teams due to how hard they are to fit. Defensive sets are dogshit and offensive rocks get walled by aegislash or prim (both top 10 mons rn) meaning it wont make much progress. Gyarados just hasn't been experimented enough on screen-less teams to rise. However, gyara is still solid on webs and can even work on bulky offenses with spikes if it wants to be tried out, so I think it has merit in A- still, just not enough splashaility to rise to A imo.
Nominations I agree/Disagree with

to S-/A+, agree: If I'm being 100% honest, I don't think Scizor is that crazy right now. Multiple natural checks like rotom forms, thundurus, mew, keldeo, salamence and moltres are all common tier staples, keeping scizor down from succeeding. Offensive LO sets are still solid on webs but screens being gone hurts it a bit. To me, there are no true S ranks rn. Scizor has too many natural checks, prim can be taken advantage of due to its speed, aegislash is slow, glowbro is overhyped it struggles to get a boost at times and only really is threatening from there, and mew is just too passive sometimes. Each S rank has their flaws, this doesn't matter much but its something I felt like sharing. Anyway, prim feels more threatening and better than scizor rn so Id put it down to S- at least.

to A, agree: This guy is just cracked rn. Revenges so many threats atm and overall is just tough to wall. Its flexible coverage allows it to beat nearly every Pokemon in the meta. While it is frail and weak to priority, the breaking power of this doggo is enough to put it in A.

to A-, agree: like others have said, chansey balances are really solid. Chansey does what it does best, walling tf out of special attackers. There's been a resurgence of chansey and thus it should rise up a bit on the VR

to A-, agree: Fuck scarf jirachi, hate that son of a bitch. Rise it though he's good

to B+, agree: Aegi is better ghost, nihi and keldeo being everywhere kinda cucks it. usage/=/ viability but chandy is nowhere to be seen

to A, agree: Surprised this rose up to begin with, has a much more exploitable speed tier unlike its brother which makes it more A worthy

to B+/B, agree: Zarude, chansey, and AV Tang screw this thing over. Pivot sets are decent but sub CM is ass. Should def drop a subrank or two

to B, agree: While I do think AV has its pros over glowbro's own AV set I cant deny B+ is a bit too high for it, B fits better since its still pretty solid, answering queen better and providing utility with knock off.

to A, agree: Just read what Twilight said about this mon I agree a lot with it

to A+, disagree: Mence, scizor, buzzwole, amoonguss, tangrowth, celesteela, cobalion, kommo-o, moltres all say hi. Monke just is too much of a u-turn bot when any of these common Pokemon are on the field, its good to check electrics, waters, grounds, and aegislash but doesnt feel on par with other A+ mons rn

to A+ disagree: Specs has no real counters, but I will admit it is exploitable between low speed and weak phys def. I do think the utility rest talk provides lets it hang on to S- as it checks some of the most threatening mons in the meta rn. Prim is just good, wouldn't drop it at all.
Discussion Points- here are some ideas that came to mind but I don't really have a strong opinion on, would def like to hear some other thoughts on them.

to B+?: Defensive steela is a weird mon. Strong wallbreakers like Keldeo as well as electrics and fires can muscle past it, but on teams without something that hard pressures it, steela can become a bitch to kill. Meteor beam sets are threatening but the screens ban kinda makes them meh. Is that enough to drop steela into the B ranks, or does it have enough merit to hold onto A-?

to B-?: The milotic hype has died down. Primarina is a far superior bulky water and the stuff it normally checked like aegislash and chandelure either have better checks with the former or are super uncommon with the latter. Milotic isn't bad but idk if its good enough to stay B rank exactly, B- fits more imo but I'm down to hear other opinions on it

to UR?: With the ban of screens and plethora of stronger set up sweepers, linoone has it rough. No longer can it hide behind screens to make up for its poor bulk. meanwhile, other HO teams like spikes, webs, and psychic terrain all have far superior options to use over linoone. belly drum extreme speed is cool and all but I'm not too sure its good enough to remain ranked.

That's it from me, hoped you enjoyed reading this and I'll see you next post (insert sunglasses)