Resource SS UU Crown Tundra Viability Ranking Thread

A quick nomination in this thread for now, I was planning to wait until the discussion points came out but I wanted to get this nomination out of the way. I’m posting on mobile so sorry for the eh quality

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(C to UR)
In my opinion, shuckle is virtually unviable to use in the current metagame, being wholly outclassed by ribombee. I’ve experimented a lot with the webs archetype as my new method of cheesing the ladder since screens got the boot, and ribombee outclassed shuckle as the webs setter to an overwhelming large extent to the point where it should be UR. Shuckle’s inability to pressure common defoggers and hazard removers like Salamence, tentacruel, starmie, hatterene, and the washer as well as its ultimate passivity for setup sweepers like sub keldeo and aegislash makes it too hard to justify compared to ribombee, who is much more reliable due to it being able to pressure hazard removers, having an actual offensive presence, and still being valuable against the poison and steel-types it cannot touch via stun spore. You are always better off running ribombee + LO krook or necrozma as a rocker rather than compressing the roles with shuckle, it just is not worth it. Overall, shuckle’s role compression as both a webs and rocks setter is not enough to justify it having a rank, and thus should be unranked.

To quickly visit the other “discussion points” rain is very inconsistent and more of a MU fish than anything. I haven’t been able to build a consistent rain team and the unreliability of the archetype doesn’t warrant a rise for me. Not to mention, it’s not all that good as many have made it out to be. Disagree on fires like Moltres and rotom heat rising, yes the grasses are rising but so are Pokémon Like Salamence, Glowbro, galarian Moltres, and Nihilego that can beat them. I talked about this when I nominated rotom-heat to drop, but basically anything these fires want to do can just be done by mence who struggles less in the current meta.

Arctozolt is indeed cool and funky
 

Aqua Jet

Boba Bitch
is a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnus
I used Crushy Stuff's formatting from this post so s/o to them for making it
:SS/Sneasel:
UR -> C+
Smooth Criminal (Sneasel) (F) @ Choice Band
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 SpA
- Ice Shard
- Knock Off
- Triple Axel
- Low Kick / Poison Jab

Smooth Criminal (Sneasel) (F) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 SpA
- Swords Dance
- Ice Shard
- Knock Off
- Icicle Crash


What does it do?
Sneasel can run two sets: Choice Band and Swords Dance. Choice Band Sneasel is the one I've experimented the most with so I'm going to focus this post primarily on that set. Choice Band provides Sneasel with immediate power that allows it to break foes such as Amoonguss and Kommo-o. Swords Dance allows Sneasel to setup on the many switches it forces such as those against Thundurus. Sneasel can then either threaten to OHKO Pokémon such as Seismitoad, or trade HP with foes such as specially defensive Umbreon.
Why is it good?
I've stated most of the reasons to run it in the above section, so here's a table of foes that you OHKO and 2HKO with proper prediction. Each Pokémon on this list is either UU by usage or among the S - A- ranked Pokémon on the VR.
Rank​
Pokémon​
Calculation​
Notes​
S​
:Thundurus:
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 636-756 (212.7 - 252.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO​
A+​
:Amoonguss:
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Amoonguss: 450-528 (104.1 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO​
A+​
:Krookodile:
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Krookodile: 576-684 (174 - 206.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO​
Sneasel only beats Stealth Rock Krookodile, as Scarf can Stone Edge it.​
A+​
:Primarina:
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Primarina: 272-320 (90.3 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Primarina: 272-320 (90.3 - 106.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock​
Sneasel only beats Choice Specs Primarina, as SubCM takes only a little over half. Requires Poison Jab.​
A+​
:Salamence:
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 384-456 (116 - 137.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 804-948 (204.5 - 241.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO​
A​
:Zarude: / :Zarude-Dada:
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zarude: 456-540 (129.9 - 153.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO​
A+​
:Kommo-o:
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kommo-o: 396-468 (136 - 160.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Kommo-o: 312-378 (88.1 - 106.7%) -- approx. 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Kommo-o: 312-378 (88.1 - 106.7%) -- approx. 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock​
A​
:Nihilego:
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nihilego: 432-507 (120.3 - 141.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO​
A​
:Tangrowth:
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 8 Def Tangrowth: 396-468 (98 - 115.8%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 8 Def Tangrowth: 396-468 (98 - 115.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock​
A-​
:Jirachi:
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 384-452 (95 - 111.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 384-452 (95 - 111.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock​
A-​
:Mienshao:
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mienshao: 360-426 (132.8 - 157.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock​
A-​
:Moltres-Galar:
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Moltres-Galar: 522-618 (136.2 - 161.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO​
B+​
:Nidoking:
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nidoking: 594-702 (196 - 231.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO​
A-​
:Starmie:
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 440-518 (136.2 - 160.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO​
Must win the speed tie here, as Starmie can OHKO with Hydro Pump​
A-​
:Thundurus-Therian:
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thundurus-Therian: 636-756 (212.7 - 252.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO​
A-​
:Mamoswine:
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 380-448 (105.2 - 124%) -- guaranteed OHKO​
B​
:Azelf:
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azelf: 512-606 (175.9 - 208.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO​
Must win the speed tie here, as Azelf can OHKO with either Explosion or Fire Blast​
B​
:Zygarde-10%:
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zygarde-10%: 420-496 (168.6 - 199.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO​
B-​
:Tapu Bulu:
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu: 420-504 (149.4 - 179.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock​
All offensive varients are OHKO'd. The more common defensive variant is 2HKO'd.​


Rank​
Pokémon​
Calculation​
Notes​
A​
:Azumarill:
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sneasel: 193-228 (76.8 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 254-300 (74.4 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO​
Requires Poison Jab.​
A-​
:Rhyperior:
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 288-342 (66.3 - 78.8%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery​
Rhyperior must be switching in.​
A​
:Slowbro-Galar:
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Slowbro-Galar: 228-270 (57.8 - 68.5%) -- approx. 2HKO after Stealth Rock​
You do not 2HKO Calm Mind Slowbro-Galar.​
A​
:Tangrowth:
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 294-348 (72.7 - 86.1%) -- approx. 2HKO​
Keep in mind that Sneasel will take damage from Rocky Helmet unless it has been removed.​
A-​
:Celesteela:
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela: 228-273 (57.2 - 68.5%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery​
Celesteela must be switching in.​
A-​
:Chansey:
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 315-372 (44.7 - 52.8%) -- approx. 2HKO after Stealth Rock​
A-​
:Gyarados:
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 288-342 (87 - 103.3%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO​
A-​
:Pelipper:
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 174-207 (53.8 - 64%) -- approx. 2HKO
0 SpA Pelipper Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Sneasel in Rain: 157-186 (62.5 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO​
B+​
:Hatterene:
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hatterene: 252-297 (79.2 - 93.3%) -- approx. 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hatterene: 252-297 (79.2 - 93.3%) -- approx. 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock​
Hatterene must be switching in.​
B-​
:Tapu Bulu:
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tapu Bulu: 312-378 (90.6 - 109.8%) -- approx. 56.3% chance to OHKO​
All offensive variants are OHKO'd. The more common defensive variant is 2HKO'd.​
D​
:Grimmsnarl:
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Grimmsnarl: 336-399 (85.2 - 101.2%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO​



What are its drawbacks?
As an Ice-type, Sneasel's Choice Band set requires Defog support so it can enter the field multiple times throughout a battle without getting severely worn down by Stealth Rock. Another restriction that the Choice Band Sneasel faces is how easy it is to revenge kill once it is choice-locked into a move. This makes Sneasel very prediction reliant. In addition, its frailty demands pivot support from teammates like Chansey so it can enter the field safely. Furthermore, Triple Axel is a somewhat unreliable move, as often it requires 3 hits to OHKO its foes. However, according to Bulbapedia, there is only a 72.9% chance that Triple Axel will hit all 3 times. This last restriction can be bypassed by using Icicle Crash, however, that move only fits on Swords Dance sets as it fails to OHKO targets such as Amoonguss when using Choice Band. Sneasel also faces competition from Mamoswine, as Mamoswine shares many victims with Sneasel such as Tangrowth and Salamence while also providing an Electric immunity. However, what differentiates Sneasel from Mamoswine is that Sneasel is able to defeat faster targets such as Mienshao and Stealth Rock Jirachi that would otherwise pose a threat to Mamoswine.
 

Luirromen

:]
is a Tiering Contributor
OUPL Champion
Even tho I haven't tested yet myself Sneasel on the UU metagame, I have considered before as a viable pick by looking how overpowered is Weavile on OU, Im completely agree with ranking Sneasel at least on C rank.

:sneasel: :ss/sneasel: :sneasel:
Ice Type is an incredible good offensive typing, Mamoswine is the offensive Ice type of the tier, being able to put instant pressure once it joins the field, Sneasel doesn't posses a high base attack, but has an incredible speed tier of 115 and a good boosting move in Sword Dance, 2 spamable stabs, Knock Off crippling posible Defensive checks and Triple Axel hitting neutral or super effective a good part of the tier.

I haven't seen anyone mention this, but Sneasel is a really good anti lead againt some HO leads.

:Froslass:
Can Knock Off on turn 1, and force it to set only 1 layer of spikes, and can't try to lower Sneasel's speed with Icy Wind and then set Spikes/click Destiny Bond, bcz has acces to Ice Shard

:krookodile:
Thanks to the new mechanic of Inner Focus making the user inmune to Intimidate, Sneasel can reliable OHKO it with triple axel and ignore any posible focus sash
252 Atk Sneasel Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Krookodile: 384-456 (116 - 137.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

:azelf:
Same with Froslass, can Knock Off and then click Ice Shard to don't risk on lose a speed tie and take an Explosion. Choice Band variants can attemp to win the speed tie on t1 and OHKO with Triple Axel preventing rocks.
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azelf: 318-378 (109.2 - 129.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Like Weavile in OU, Sneasel can overwhelm defensive checks with repeated hits and Stealth Rocks and/or Spikes damage.

:Primarina: Resist both Ice and Dark stabs, but with repeated hits can be forced quickly to Rest making it harder to keep joining the field (assuming is RestStalk)

:cobalion: Already being a more niche pick, but can check Sneasel, however doesnt posses any reliable recovery and with Spikes up can be wear down even faster

:buzzwole: Defensive Buzzwole is probably the best check to Sneasel, high defense and hp stat, Dark resist and instant recovery on Roost, but must be aware on constant switchs on Triple Axel + Stealth Rocks and don't catch a Toxic from other picks.

If all of that isn't enought, Lycan-Dusk, who its right now one of the best priority users in the tier, must be careful to not be on range of a +2 Ice Shard from Sneasel since it comes before than Accelerock due to Sneasel being faster.
+2 252 Atk Sneasel Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lycanroc-Dusk: 150-177 (51.5 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


All this qualities sound really good on paper, but further test is needed in practice, some of the drowbacks of Sneasel is that relies heavily on Volt Switch/U turn support or predictions to get safe on the field, and won't get as many set up opportunities as it would want, even set up on something like Amoonguss, Tangrowth or Aegislash that sounds safe at first can be risky, Amoonguss can Spore or fish for a Sludge Bomb poison, and if it keeps having a Rocky Helmet a full health Amoonguss can take a Triple Axel, get the Helmet chip and KO with Sludge Bomb, Tangrowth can Knock Off its boots and make it even harder to join on the field, and Aegislash can either toxic or Flash Cannon/Close Combat and OHKO it. I do not like that much Choice Band variants since they also need a good hazard control and can be played around by even Aegislash protecting itself with King Shield.
 
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While everybody is focused on ranking an ice type (who's probably very fine but not the kind of mon i'd ever use), i'd like to give some spotlight to a couple of others
:ninetales-alola: :arctozolt:
(and ig chansey but its already considered good)
Turns out those two together are pretty busted. Eeveeto already gave hail quite the showcase during open, bringing a hail squad with both every week, even sharing the replays when it wasn't required, and it went undefeated until semis (iirc).
During my suspect run i've seen it a couple of times and it even got some usage in UUWC (lily used it but ran into entei w/ no fire resist which is pretty kek, fyfyk brought it and even w/ ninetales gone early it did not do 0, Axelsior brought it and easily won a rain matchup thanks to the whole hail structure + amogus).

I ended up trying it on my own with slightly different sets on both, I've had the most comfort using sub boots arctozolt seeing how it just denies the bolt beak/blizzard 50/50s (and tect or kings shield) by clicking sub once, which makes it even more painful to deal with. From my experience it bodies the standard bo cores, even the ones with potential one time switchins/revenge killers. Here's an example of how it went against what feels standard: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1407426675-qwi007xjrg1wty9jqwkha8rkvmaynkypw
it uses pdef :celesteela: but don't worry about it
Had just to force some chip on the team then Arcto claimed 4, even by being slower than scarf Tom (maybe + speed is better idk, would've claimd the 6 if it was). It can be used at other points in the game, it's a very efficient mid game breaker in some matchups. Ninetales on its own is pretty wack to use but it has some things going for it as a setter ; Veil is still kinda useful (can help you sub up against amogus or jira), and it can force chip or hypnosis some of the stuff that could waste a bit of your time, mostly very fat steels like Aegi/Jira. I never clicked anything other than Veil/ice move but it's even sorta strong, Blizzard + Hail Damage is not super easy to switch into.

The Spreads can vary quite a bit so I won't try to post precise calcs, but it's fairly easy just by looking at the VR to see how limited our BoltBeam checks are when the moves are this powerful. Gastro can't even take on it because of the potential freeze dry. Mamo comes to mind as a potential switchin but is very easy to chip and can even drop to double Blizzard if Oblivious. Almighty Umbreon isn't even close to reliable:
252 Atk Arctozolt Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Umbreon: 156-184 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- 33.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, hail damage, and Leftovers recovery

That being said it's not rly perfect either, it fails to OHKO a bunch of stuff that can answer back and dent it badly, having to choose between the extra power and extra speed sucks, and it's not exactly lightning fast under hail, outsped by Scarf Krook and above if + Speed, by Scarf tom if +Atk. You're also kinda forced to run Boots if you don't want to die on your own to rocks and doubles switches/overpredictions, meaning you can't get the extra power of LO. It's also not super easy to build around, Lily had to give up on the Fire type matchup while I kinda gave up on Krook (fast tenta is a check in there).

Overall I think Arctozolt is still extremely painful to check, and legitimates Hail Structure on its own. Other options like Alolan Sandslash are probably also fine, but I haven't tried them.
Zolt and Tales go together so even if Arcto is the real topic, I feel both should be paired and rise a couple of subranks. Not too sure where but OU is maybe stealing that anyway so if we wait long enough we shouldn't even have to bother. Can probably hit the B+ for me, since it feels as consistent as the dedicated rain/ho mons that are Skewda and Thundy-T if not more (maybe im jumping the gun pls tell me if i am)

--

On an unrelated matter Roserade should rise again imo !_!
 
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pokemonisfun

Banned deucer.
Regidrago to B rank:

Set:

Regidrago @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Dragon's Maw
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Dragon Energy
- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Pulse
- Explosion

Replays:

How strong is it really? Extraordinarily. Far stronger than Mamoswine and Keldeo.

252+ SpA Dragon's Maw Regidrago Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 336-396 (83.1 - 98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Dragon's Maw Regidrago Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 291-343 (72 - 84.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 268-316 (66.3 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 234-277 (57.9 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


Why?

Basically, you're extremely strong and fast. You're stronger than Choice Specs Hydro Pump Keldeo and faster than Noivern. The obvious drawback is Fairies. Which leads me to this point: there are two ways to build with Regidrago, either using it with lures (like Poison Jab Buzzole) or more standalone as I did in the replays. Either way, it's a fishy mon - you will have a tough time versus fairies but almost always a good match up if your opponent has no Fairy.

Why all the way to B? Because it's incredibly fast and strong with just one huge flaw, Fairies, and one medium size flaw - Steels. It's certainly an unbalanced mon that's difficult to evaluate, but as Fairies are far from required, it's like an S/A+ mon without Fairies but like a C mon if there are Fairies. So B is in the middle.
 

Rae

valiance and vigor
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Azelf is starting to look like a really dominant force in the metagame, with Thundurus gone it's pivot set is no longer outclassed and can really shine now, with the classic combination of Knock Off + U-turn being fantastic utility. It's speed tier has proven extremely valuable as well, being able to outspeed top threats like Keldeo, Lycanroc and Nihilego, pairing that with it's power I believe it's worthy of a rise to B+


Buzzwole's a really frightening Pokemon now, with it's amazing offensive and defensive portfolio it can check the likes of Zarude, Mienshao, Jirachi and Krookodile while being an excellent Knock Off absorber. On top of this, Roost + 3Attacks sets are incredible right now thanks to its ability to terrify a large portion of the metagame while still possessing great defensive utility with it's natural resistances and recovery. It's a valuable member to every team and is certainly an A rank Pokemon in the metagame.



Even though Diggersby dropped last shift, its raw power is not to go undermined and i'm personally in favour of ranking it back up to B+. Swords Dance sets are absolutely terrifying and has very little switch-ins, to the point where even Salamence and Buzzwole can't switch into it, making your only way of disposing of it being via revenge killing - and even then it's access Quick Attack makes that extremely risking, or playing around it and wearing it down with chip damage.



Roserade's recent surge usage is for good reason: it's Spikes support is invaluable right now, and it's speed tier and power over the other Grass-types like Amoonguss and Tangrowth can be extremely valuable in certain scenarios. A lot of cleaners and breakers in the tier love the hazard support to chip down Amoong, Tang and Aegislash like Keldeo, Lycanroc, Zarude and Nihilego and is deserving of a B+ spot



Volcanion's also been experiencing a surge in usage with UUWC showing a lot of experimentation - between HBD, Specs and Scarf it has plenty of options for its sets. It's ability to simply blow a chunk of the metagame up while also having amazing resistances and an immunity to Water makes it a solid anti-rain pick, as well as a rain abuser. Not only is it great with weather, but other archetypes like Bulky Offense have started to use it, being a great wallbreaker with access to Defog to give it a pinch more utility. Basically, this thing is picking up a lot and it's usage and niche warrants a rise.
 

Band

scatters things often
is a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributor
Just want to hop in a give a few noms è-é

:diggersby: B -> B+
This dude dismantles teams, I'm not even joking. You have to play risky at times when they switch into stuff like mence and washer, but if you manage to get the predict right and not miss mega kick, diggs gets to usually spam eq the rest of the game, which is quite the high risk high reward situation, but hey, it works.

:xy/diggersby::silk-scarf:
Diggersby @ Silk Scarf
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Quick Attack
- Mega Kick

With a Silk Scarf, Mega Kick effectively becomes 144 BP and Quick Attack 52 BP, giving you both a NUKE of a move and strong priority that can pick off sweepers without needing to use a Life Orb or CB. According to math experts KM and Estarossa you have approximately a 97,5% chance to OHKO Salamence with Mega Kick into Quick Attack at -1. Calcs for other stuff are below too.

252+ Atk Silk Scarf Huge Power Diggersby Mega Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 187-222 (46.2 - 54.9%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Huge Power Diggersby Mega Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 187-222 (46.2 - 54.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Huge Power Diggersby Mega Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 375-442 (92.8 - 109.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Huge Power Diggersby Mega Kick vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Buzzwole: 373-439 (89.2 - 105%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Huge Power Diggersby Mega Kick vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Amoonguss: 282-333 (65.2 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Huge Power Diggersby Mega Kick vs. 252 HP / 140 Def Rotom-Wash: 252-297 (82.8 - 97.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Huge Power Diggersby Mega Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 244-288 (73.7 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Huge Power Diggersby Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 82-97 (24.7 - 29.3%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO
(Salamence has 331 HP, so you need a Mega Kick roll that is higher or equal than 250, which are 14/16 rolls, and the lowest Quick Attack roll is 82, which sums up to 332, OHKOing mence.)


some mid ladder replays
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1410957716
Here getting the predict against Bulu made it so I could spam EQ a lot more freely (yes the SD was a missplay but my point still stands)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1411024999
In this one, the HWish support from Jirachi helps Diggs break early-game and come back to sweep later

:roserade: B -> B+/A-
I don't have replays but this is our best spiker. it checks amoongus, aegi, resttalk prim, and clanger and spikes all over them (taunt clanger is fake shhh or idk just use dazzling gleam). A- is probably a stretch but go big or go home right.

:xy/roserade:
Roserade @ Black Sludge
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Sludge Bomb
- Synthesis
- Aromatherapy / Stun Spore

She eats hits for days and Spikes all over the other team. If you haven't used rose yet, it's definitely worth a try with specs keldeo to destroy the moonger and prima.
 
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romanji

/ᐠ - ˕ -マ
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:bw/thundurus:POST-THUNDURUS VR :bw/thundurus:

to B+/A-: Hail is kinda cracked again here, with Arctozolt being the broken part of it. Its ability to outspeed the entire unboosted metagame and having the 170 BP Bolt Beak while not having to lock into it so it can use Blizzard on the Ground-types and Thundurus-T. Other options in Low Kick, Freeze-Dry, and Hydro Pump allow it to commonly break through other checks such as Mamoswine, Gastrodon, Seismitoad, Rotom-H and Rhyperior. Alolan Ninetales’ bevy of utility moves such as Aurora Veil, Hypnosis, Encore, Safeguard, and Disable allow it to be tailor-made for what its team needs. The ban of Light Clay may has benefited hail teams as the main setter can now run Icy Rock with little repercussions. Alolan Ninetales can also run a Nasty Plot set with Aurora Veil and its high speed tier make it a dangerous late-game cleaner that is difficult to KO with the bulk and power.
to B+:
2445F807-6F0B-40A5-BE65-AA5A2D3C4F63.jpeg

Azelf has been B+ material and I think that this is my 3rd straight time nominating this up, but I'm pretty sure this is the closest thing we have to a "Thundurus replacement." As the fastest Pokemon with U-turn and Knock Off, the pivot set has seen more usage. Some have even run an Expert Belt set with U-turn to combined the best parts of both the pivot sets and Nasty Plot; the immediate power and U-turn. While it still has some hard counters such as Umbreon, it is a fantastic breaker and should have risen long ago.
to B+: Diggersby shouldn't have dropped last update. Yes it’s Speed tier can often let it down, but it has some great moves in Swords Dance, U-turn, Spikes, Earthquake, Quick Attack, and Fire Punch for Celesteela. Sticky Webs can help augment its Speed issue, making it difficult to revenge kill. Choice Scarf sets also have great surprise factor and the ability to pivot out very easily.
to A: RestTalk Galarian Moltres has become the premier check to King’s Shield + Toxic Aegislash, as some have dropped Substitute for Close Combat to hit Chansey and Zarude, which Galarian Moltres is neutral to. It’s also a great check to other threats such as non-Rock Slide Zarude, special Salamance, and Tangrowth. Nasty Plot on the RestTalk set allows it to break through bulkier teams while being very difficult to wear down with Toxic. Berserk synergizes well with Rest, also allowing it to still have a method of boosting its Special Attack so it can run Hurricane or Air Slash. Galarian Moltres also has the chance of potentially snowballing with a double dance set, though it is inconsistent due to its weakness to Accelerock Lycanroc-D and Ice Shard from Mamoswine.
to A-: Most Necrozma sets don’t have the same answers, as Chansey becomes set up fodder for Dragon Dance variants, and Celesteela doesn’t like taking a boosted Heat Wave. Stealth Rock on Meteor Beam sets is good role compression on bulky offense teams, while Autotomize allows it to outspeed every Choice Scarf user. (also this totally isn’t because I keep getting 6-0’d by it all the time)
to B+: Another benefactor of the Thundurus ban, Assault Vest Reuniclus has been a great special wall and Future Sight user. Knock Off is of course the greatest no skill move ever, removing Eviolite, Leftovers and Heavy-Duty Boots. Future Sight greatly benefits wallbreakers to an even greater extent such as Life Orb Buzzwole and Choice Band Krookodile. Though it has fallen off a bit, Calm Mind sets can still be a pain to deal with in the late-game, as it can be very difficult to wear down due to it without a Dark-type.
to C+: Sticky Webs have seen a resurgence with Ribombee as the main setter. Its insanely high Speed allows it to not be Taunt fodder unlike Slurpuff or Shuckle. Access to Skill Swap against Hatterene's Magic Bounce allows it to get up the Sticky Web guaranteed, allowing threats such as Diggersby and Thundurus-T to patch up their Speed a bit. Other strategies to keep Sticky Web up was Imprison Defog.
to B+: As one who was singing the praises of it after Mew moved to OU, this makes me quite happy. Roserade has seen itself as the best Spiker in the tier since July, with other fantastic utility moves such as Aromatherapy, Stun Spore, and Synthesis. Sets have shifted to be more bulky in order to not fold against stronger hits, such as avoiding the 2HKO from Choice Band Azumarill Liquidation or Choice Specs-boosted attacks from Keldeo and Primarina.
to A-: With the ban of its Incarnate Forme, the opportunity costs of using Thundurus-T have been greatly reduced. Though it’s Speed tier is often pretty bad vs Pokemon such as Nihilego, Zarude, and Keldeo, Pokemon that Incarnate would check, it is probably the best Pokemon to use on Sticky Web teams, as most of the non-grounded Pokemon such as Salamence do not like taking a Nasty Plot-boosted Thunderbolt, and Zarude is KOed by Focus Blast.
to A-: Togekiss has been a rising star for a bit on bulky offense teams, compressing wallbreaking with Nasty Plot, a defensive check to threats such as Kommo-o and Buzzwole, Speed control with Thunder Wave, or cleric support with Heal Bell. Offensive sets with Flamethrower over one of the utility moves can be a good lure against Aegislash or Celesteela thinking it can stall it out.

Other noms I agree with:
to A
to C+
to B+
 

Hilomilo

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Hey all! It's a bit late but I decided to provide some discussion points for the next few weeks now that the suspect is over! The update should be here around the end of the month (just before tier shifts arrive), so we still have ample time to discuss some things in the coming weeks! Enjoy~

Discussion Points
Lycanroc-D A+ -> A: The metagame feels less advantageous to Lycanroc than around a month or two ago. Aegislash, Amoonguss, and Tangrowth have all sustained positions as top defensive picks, though foes like Buzzwole and Choice Scarf Jirachi are also on the come-up, while Accelerock’s utility has taken a slight hit post-Thundurus ban. Lycanroc still exerts one of the finest offensive presences available, however, which caused a slight split in the VR team’s voting on it in the last slate.

Salamence A+ -> A: Salamence was another rather divisive Pokemon in the last voting slate. Although many teams call on it to act as a glue, it tends to overwhelm itself as it tries checking many Pokemon while also struggling to slot in every move it’d like on a set. Despite this, it still has pretty decent claim with its set versatility and the current utility of its tools, which makes its rank a little tricky to assess.

Rotom-W A -> A+: Rotom-W has been continually surging for many months now as a top-notch pivot. It has excellent synergy with a vast amount of favorable picks and can steadily contribute thanks to the utility its defensive perks and movepool offer. Although its proneness to being worn down can still burden it at times, the argument to rise seems stronger than ever.

Buzzwole A- -> A/A+: Buzzwole may just be the strongest it’s been in UU this generation. Its coverage can be incredibly difficult to dance around once it’s in, especially as picks like Moltres have fallen off, while the defensive utility that accompanies Buzzwole’s damage output is also admirable, checking popular Pokemon like Krookodile, Mienshao, and Zarude. Its main pitfalls come in the form of its Speed and special bulk often hampering its matchups against a few common picks, though a rise is certainly worth discussing at this stage.

Moltres-Galar A- -> B+: Galarian Moltres has a lot of cool tools on paper, most notably including its typing yielding a strong matchup against Aegislash. However, it can struggle at times to harness its tool kit to its full potential. RestTalk sets can often struggle to maintain consistent progress, while its sweeping capabilities also feel a bit hampered by the many popular Pokemon that can hamper its opportunities, including Nihilego, Lycanroc, and Chansey. There are many mixed opinions on this Pokemon, however, so we felt that it’d make a good discussion point for the next few weeks.

Roserade B -> higher: Roserade has seen a huge uptick in usage lately, emerging as a truly great Spikes setter with extensive options for making progress. Stun Spore has developed into a legitimate option it can explore, deeply throwing off a lot of its typical offensive switch-ins like Jirachi. It additionally still has a solid offensive presence, though the presence of many Steel-types in the tier is perhaps its most identifiable shortcoming on paper.

Nidoking vs Nidoqueen: The VR team has discussed what exactly to do with the Nidos, as lately it feels like they are on a more even playing field than when Nidoking first joined the UU metagame. Nidoking’s extra Speed can come in handy, though it lately has preferred a Modest nature to maximize its power which makes this less of a clear advantage over Nidoqueen, which suffers less pressure to pick a nature and offers more bulk, proving helpful in tight teambuilding situations as well as 1v1s against foes like Lycanroc. We’re interested in hearing your thoughts on the comparison between the two!

Tornadus C -> higher: Tornadus has emerged as something of a Thundurus replacement recently, offering a lot of the same tools that made Thundy such a strong pivot. Its Speed and progress making capabilities are quite admirable and much more accessible now that its main competition is banned. Although it can’t seemingly reach the same heights as Thundurus once did, it’s certainly a pick that warrants more exploration now than ever before.
 
With UUWC basically over now and shifts approaching, I felt now would be the best time to make a VR post giving some nominations based on metagame developments I've seen over the last few weeks. I'll also be responding to the discussion points Hilo put out as well.
Discussion Points
(A+ to A): Agree
Lycanroc has seen better days. I agree with the sentiment that it struggles a bit more in the current meta with the continuously growing trends of rotom-w, defensive Kommo-o, buzzwole, celesteela, and choice scarf jirachi. One thing about Lycanroc I really don't like is the fact it kills itself extremely quickly. Between hazards and LO recoil, lycanroc isn't around for long. This makes lycanroc extremely prediction reliant and can be punished for clicking the wrong move and losing 12% health. Still a great wallbreaker and cleaner, but its unreliability in a battle and lesser need to use it with thundurus gone makes it better suited for A rank.
(A+ to A): Slightly Disagree
While I don't think salamence should drop, I certainly can understand why it's being brought up. Kommo-o has usurped it as the best dragon-type in the tier, being a reliable rocker and setup sweeper. DD mence sucks now with rotom-wash, primarina, and celesteela being great, and defensive sets are never seen outside of stall teams which is meh right now. Still, I think Salamence should maintain an A+ ranking based on its special attacking set. STABs + Flamethrower is hella tough to switch into over long periods of time. Plus, mence's great defensive utility makes it more than just a wallbreaker, its ability to check pokemon like keldeo and zarude in addition to beating common staples like the grasses and kommo-o makes it still very good. It's one of the better defoggers, offensively checking setters like roserade and krookodile. Salamence is still an excellent glue mon and wallbreaker in the tier, and I think it's worth keeping in A+.
(A to A+): 100% agree
I'm genuinely surprised this nomination hasn't come up before Hilo put it as a discussion point. I consider rotom-wash to easily be a top 10 Pokemon in the tier, it synergizes with so many Pokemon forming defensive and VoltTurn cores. Its typing is amazing and it provides lots of utility between will-o-wisp, volt switch, and defog. It's very unpredictable too, with choice scarf sets needing to be scouted for these days otherwise it gets a free trick onto your defensive Pokemon. It got a lot of usage in week 1 SCL as well as UUWC. Rotom-wash is the definition of consistent in UnderUsed, and I think it deserves a rise to A+ to reflect its status in the metagame.
(A- to A+): Agree
Buzzwole should definitely rise past A to A+. Its potential is finally being realized here, bulky offensive sets have found their way onto many teams, synergizing with great picks like Roserade and chansey. It's a stupidly good wallbreaker with its 3 attacks roost set, and very little can switch into it. I've been running ice punch> stone edge on my webs team to hit amoonguss since moltres and rotom-h are down bad right now and it works like wonders. It checks nearly all our physical attackers, it's gotten used a lot in SCL both weeks, and just is a strong pick in the metagame right now. It sucks to see him go, but I say it should rise to A+ as a send off for its strong position in the tier.
(A- to B+): Strongly Disagree
What? If anything Galarian Moltres is closer to rising to A than dropping to B+. RestTalk Goltres is an amazing glue in the tier, checking tier king aegislash as well as other Pokemon like amoonguss, Kommo-o, and galarian slowbro. It never dies when used properly, and even though Nasty Plot sets have fallen off they still make a powerful wincon. Galarain Moltres's ability to continuously check top threats, absorb status, and even wallbreak a bit with its Berserk boosts makes it very strong in the metagame right now. It should not drop and if anything I think it should rise to A to reflect it being a real threat in the UU metagame.
(B to higher): Strongly Agree
I think Roserade should be ranked much higher at A- rather than the B ranks. Rose has been making waves in SCL as a premier grass-type in UU, enjoying the ban of thundurus more than many. Spikes are broken and it can lay them for days, it can check many big threats like amoonguss, primarina, washer, tangrowth, and even zarude with bulky variants. It's also very diverse in what it can run. Stun spore, aromatherapy, sleep powder, synthesis, and even shadow ball have all been used, alongside different EVs spreads investing in either offenses or bulk. Roserade has taken off in usage and is no longer something you can ignore. I think A- is appropriate for now, though if someone says it could be even higher I wouldn't disagree with them.
vs

I think the nidos are fine where they are personally and wouldn't rise nor drop either of them. Nidoking is better to me because it fulfills the role of what the nidos do, it's a wallbreaker and a better one at that due to its higher offenses and speed. Nidoking doesn't struggle to choose its nature at all, modest should always be run. You only speed tie with an offensive Kommo-o and it probably eats a hit and KOs you anyway so the speed isn't worth it. Yes Nidoqueen has better bulk, but it wasn't exactly taking hits too well with its lack of recovery and is vulnerable to being outsped by threats like modest necrozma and max speed adamant buzzwole. Nidoqueen works as decent role compression as a breaker and entry hazard setter, but I'm almost always wanting something like nihilego, kommo-o, or krook as my rocker instead. Overall, if you want a breaker, use Nidoking due to its better speed and offense. If you want an offensive rocker, use nihilego or clanger over queen personally. Queen is decent role compression, but its meh bulk and speed makes it outclassed at what it wants to do and should stay ranked at B. Meanwhile, Nidoking should remain B+ to reflect it is a powerful wallbreaker, albeit with lacking defensive utility and reliant on pivoting support to get in.
(C to higher): Sure
Torn is ok, it's a decent pivot that was used in SCL week 1 but I don't think it's anything too crazy. Its only good set is the acrobatics set but then you're running a mon that is rocks weak in a tier with ass hazard removal. I would be fine putting it higher at B-, but anything higher is too much.

My own nominations/ Nominations I agree with
to A+
I think Celesteela is legit amazing right now and is the best it has been since DLC 2 started. It's just so fat and it walls tons of Pokemon in the tier like aegislash and zarude with its great defensive typing. It never dies, and somehow is always above 70% even with the unreliable leech seed as recovery. It's gotten used tons over both weeks of SCL as a reliable defensive steel. While it does have shortcomings against powerful wallbreakers, its ability to synergize with other top threats like buzzwole, kommo-o, or tangrowth makes it incredibly irritating to face. I might be overhyping it but Celesteela should definitely get more discussion on rising to A+ in the future.
to A-
This is a controversial nomination, but when looking at the A rank azumarill sticks out like a sore thumb. It's gotten little usage in tours, only being used 3 times in the pools stage of UUWC and not used in qualifiers or final stages. Fucking flygon got more usage than this. It's a slow wallbreaker with only ok defensive utility, it limits your team to not using another water or fairy type, and faces severe competition from primarina and keldeo as waters. When I look at the A rank, I see consistent and splashable pokemon. Azumarill doesn't fit this one bit, and should drop down to A- to reflect that it isn't as good as we thought it was. An A rank Pokemon shouldn't have this little usage in tours. Hell, I think other Pokemon in A- that shouldn't rise like chansey, mienshao, and even gyarados are all better than azumarill right now, helping my case of warranting a drop.
to B+,
and
to B-
Another controversial nomination I think rain is meh. It's hella inconsistent and a matchup fish if anything else. It only pops off against hyper offense teams which are alright in the current metagame. It hasn't gotten any meaningful usage in tours because of its inconsistency, and doesn't fit in the A ranks anymore. Pelipper dropping reflects rain isn't all that. Similarly, both crawdaunt and kingdra rose because of rain, and now that it's not that great they both should drop a subrank to reflect their lack of usage and inconsistency.
to B+
I still think this is pretty mid right now, washer is jesus and top picks like nihilego, chansey, AV glowbro, keldeo, and lycanroc have persisted. It's a decent check to the grasses and aegi, but I'd rather run washer and have teammates like Salamence that can beat these than use rotom-H. I already nominated this before and it didn't drop but hey might as well try again and possibly spark some more discussion, not too bothered if it remains at A- again.
to A-/A
Speaking of previously made nominations, I agree thundurus-T should rise to A- at least, maybe even A but that's probably a bit too much. I initially thought pivot thundurus-t would be meh, it has a very vulnerable speed tier against threats like Nihilego, zarude, and keldeo that its counterpart did not have. However, I was surprised. It's a great pivot that has been showcased in SCL, sporting great power and an unpredictable movepool that lets it dominate in games. Its worked great in my own tests as well on VoltTurn offense teams. Thundurus-T is no longer in the shadow of its counterpart and should rise to A-/A to reflect its new and more realized niche right now.
to B+
This guy has been B+ material for like the last 3 months already but maybe VR will finally give it a shot now that Azef’s pivot set has taken off in thundurus's absence. Its speed tier is elite and has great coverage that lets it 2HKO most of the metagame. It's been showcased on two samples now, and even players who used to not like it (cough cough Estarossa ) now acknowledge its viability. I don't want to get radical and whatnot but I'm going to be surprised if azelf doesn't rise considering its usage has been growing in tours, its niche has been more defined, and people continually support a rise in this thread. I'm realizing this now that I'm sounding like KM that time he was upset about guzzlord being unranked but I somewhat believe that those who think azelf is bad have just never used it properly. Come on, it’s a good mon, and certainly distinguishes itself from the Pokemon in B to be ranked at B+.
to B+
Shouldn't have dropped to begin with. SD sets tear the tier a new one with nothing able to switch into it. Choice scarf sets are decent too. I don't have much to say, read Bandkrook's post on it for more, and raise Diggersby.
to C+
Webs have been very consistent on the ladder with my sample doing well against common teams that are unprepared. Ribombee is the best setter due to it having an actual offensive presence and beating our hazard removers. Its ability to enable threats like SD aegislash, nasty plot azelf, diggersby, NP thundurus-t, and buzzwole is strong. Pretty simple here, Ribombee should rise to C+ to reflect the growing viability of webs in the tier.
:sneasel: to C
Sure, why not. I havent used it too much but its been shown to be pretty effective by this thread's posters. Its certainly a lot better than random shit in the C ranks like milotic, kelfki, and shuckle, so I don't see the harm in ranking sneasel.
to UR
I think Klefki is really bad atm. Prankster spikes are cool but its awful against our removers. Roserade outclasses it as a spiker on normal teams whereas froslass is a better pick on HO builds. I don't see a world where I'm using klefki over any of our other steel-types or spikers, and thus I don't think it should be ranked anymore (and no, imprison defog will never be good).

That's all, I hope this was a good read. I enjoyed this meta and am super excited for the upcoming tier shifts that will shake up this tier a lot.
 
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:moltres-galar: to B+ > agree
This feels pretty wack. Rest talk is very matchup fishy, it gets some free matchups but those are rather rare, most of the times it feels like a rest bot that never has the right moves. NP is, I think, awful since you're letting in tons of things, mostly prim and the fightings for free when you could somewhat scare them with Hurricane. Relying on hurricane is equally bad and means you're really doing negative damage in most matchups. Offensive has been a bit more effective, most of the times because Agility + well timed flinches worked well. Berserk can be tough to play around on Agility sets, esp if you couldnt scout the item. I've also seen double dance + wish support, which is to me probably better than rest talk in balanced (was at least a lot scarier to face).
While rest talk still counters sub toxic aegi (and amoongus), most of the meta has a way to cripple it and I rarely ever consider it when I'm looking for Aegi answers, both in BO or in balanced (which i admittedly play a lot less, but even there Umbreon feels bettter). Offensive can be pretty scary but still feels like a niche pick, and is equally matchup (and luck) fishy.
A ranks might look a bit off right now, but I dont believe it's as strong as most of the A- mons, much less the A rank ones.

:buzzwole: to A+ > agree
The Buzz is amazing rn. Plethora of item and coverage options make it an extremely splashable pick that does so much, both offensively and defensively, for teams. It's also an almost mandatory pick in Roserade teams, while being perfectly fine when not amazing in any other playstyle, from hyper offense to stall. It's a defining force of the metagame and the VR should reflect it before we lose it
:psycry:

:rotom-wash: :rotom-heat:
While I think washtom is one of the best mons in the tier and an amazing glue to a ton of teams, I do not think things are this bad for its oven counterpart. The main grip against oven is that it can't defog reliably and knock ruins it ; but status split dual stab heattom has been putting in a ton of work for me, crippling a ton of standards rotom checks. That's nothing washtom can't do but I feel you're often picking washer when you need some precise role compression and can't afford to do w/o one of its key assets over heat (reliable defog, scarf..).
Heattom is for sure a nicher pick but it's equally painful to switch into (if not more), scares out a good portion of the meta and is a little more free to run any crippling option it wants as last move. I guess B+ is still fine but it can stay A- for me.
(hard agree on A+ washer)

:thundurus-therian: higher > agree
the lack of speed sure hurts against Zarude, Keld and Nihi but otherwise it's pretty much the same thing, only it hits harder, which allows to get a little wilder in terms of options (defog *-*). It's still an extremely consistent HO and weather presence for what its worth, even opting for pivot/aoa sets in those structures sometimes, which makes it unpredictable on top of being scary af to check. Can definitely join the A ranks again.

Agree with the other discussion points but I have a lot less to say.
• Not a big :nidoking: :nidoqueen: enthusiast, king is scarier but queen finds its place into teams more easily. I tend to value the other ground types most of the time.
:Tornadus: can probably end up in B/B+, I'm not super high on it cause its flying stab is awful and you have to rely on it hitting a lot. Choosing a 4th move is insanely painful since you'd ideally want GK, Superpower, Heat wave AND a reliable stab (air slash??).
:pelipper: and gang > hard agree with monky that rain can drop, it felt inconsistent and fishy to me, while commonly losing to recurrent archetypes (it's really not comfortable against spikes). Omastar is still busted on paper but i've yet to see it set up once.
:azelf: is super viable and can easily hit the B+ bottom line.
• not much to add on mence and lycan (should both drop imo) and roserade (should obviously rise)

Is all for me, good day friends
 
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First time doing this, yay!

I 100% Agree with the Azelf rise, Ive been using a mix between 4-Atk Expert Belt with U-Turn/Psyshock/Fire Blast/Knock, and the NP 3-Atk variant. I find Azelf to be in a position where it can finally be a B+ mon please, its been 3 Months. Surely it can finally rise.

King V Queen: While I do prefer using Nidoking cause of its offensive presence, Queens defensives makes it easier to fit in on teams, especially with the meta being faster than King and threatening OHKO´s. Im not sure what Queen runs, (Havent used Queen since Latias was in the tier and I ran Poison Point Scorching Sands) Both ranked are fine where they are, if not dropping King to B+.

Nidoking: B+ I say maybe a slight drop for King because of the aftermention issues, of faster pokemon threatening it out, priority such as Azumarill Aqua Jet, and Chansey walling it which sucks. I tried Physical with Sucker Punch to threaten like, Azelf.

252 Atk Life Orb Nidoking Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Azelf: 224-265 (76.9 - 91%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

With little chip it can help, but this is highly nieche and also accomplishes nothing to anything else. B+ seems right for King for me at least.

Turns out I got 1 more thing to talk about. Whoops!

Roserade: B+/A- Though I have rarely used this pokemon I can totally see why its seeing an increase. Spikes are a great tool even with Boots existing. Threatening top tier mons such as Keldeo and Prima with stabs are coveted and potentially catching a switch in with a bomb poison, or a sleep powder is terrific. Eventually I will finally use this mon as it deserves much more. Potentially with Double Spores possibly, though losing a stab or spikes can hurt. Alas this rose really does have thorns!
 
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Band

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Discussion Points
Lycanroc-D A+ -> A Disagree
I think Lycan has seen better days, and with amoong and especially buzzwole being kinda everywhere rn, I think it struggles to find good opportunities to break. Lacking edge makes it so mence can deal with it much easier, while lacking psyfangs is bad against the buzz matchup, and often you pair buzz w/ amoong or mence, so it's hard. That said, I think Lycan is still a A+ threat and if your team is not actually prepared for it, it can very easily run through you. Also let's popularize double priority with sucker punch for scarf rachi '-'

Salamence A+ -> A: Agree
I'm used to slapping mence as a last minute defogger in my teams and meh it's not the best check to stuff like zarude and shao when we have buzz right there, so the only reason i see to use this is DD, but with the rise in mamo usage and lycan being an A+ mon in my eyes. mence is not as good as it used to be.

Rotom-W A -> A+: Agree
Amazing glue, amazing typing, choice scarf will be even better once excadrill drops. It manages to compress a shitton of stuff: pivoting, status, hazard removal and it's not passive at all.

Buzzwole A- -> A/A+: Agree with A+
Genuinely sad this big guy is rising. I honestly provides so much to the tier, ranging from hyper offense webs to full on stall, buzzwole is a top tier pick for basically any team you're building rn, since it provides a catch-all physical wall that honestly doesn't even need much investiment. Blanket checking shit like shao, zarude, mamo, sd clanger (which is so good), etc in a single slot while still being able to hit hard asf without much invest is incredible. It apparently pairs amazingly with roserade too, which is also incredible rn.

Moltres-Galar A- -> B+: Agree
Don't have much to say that laevin hasn't said. Matchup fishy and weird to use without any good recovery outside of Rest and a shit STAB move.

Roserade B -> higher: A/A+
Yeah, rose is easy A/A+ material. Spikes are as busted as ever, and you manage to set them up against a lot of shit: resttalk prim, defensive clanger, aegi, amoong, tang, choice-locked keld, toad, etc etc. Me and Estarossa were discussing it and the 4th slot is fairly customizable, rly. You're not OBLIGATED to run grass STAB, but it helps a ton on the toad matchup and may become better once swamp drops? Aromatherapy and Stun Spore are the best options imo because you get to rly support your team, and opting for stun lets you cripple both bulletproof and overcoat clanger one way or the other, which i like, plus stun at least lets you annoy aegi and get some more opportunities to heal/set spikes. really great meta pick now, i hope skarm doesn't steal its thunder, since rose has been pretty bad until now :(

Nidoking vs Nidoqueen

Honestly both kinda suck in my eyes unless you're using king with some heavy pivot support, and imo queen is not the most reliable rocker out there, unless you're desperate for a way to pressure shit like mence and hatterene? i think they can be ranked in the same tier, they're used differently but kind of end up doing the same thing: offensively pressure the other team with coverage.

Tornadus C -> higher: Agree
Idk, B? KM has been hyping up this mon for quite sometime and after thinking Guzzlord was shit, using it, and actually realizing it's not as shit, I'm down for anything KM says. So yea, idm it rising.
 

KM

slayification
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Tornadus C -> higher: Agree
Idk, B? KM has been hyping up this mon for quite sometime and after thinking Guzzlord was shit, using it, and actually realizing it's not as shit, I'm down for anything KM says. So yea, idm it rising.

nice :blobthumbsup:


i'll keep it short because i've talked about this mon enough, but

:ss/tornadus:
Tornadus (M)
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Acrobatics
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Superpower / Grass Knot

i could talk for hours about how good this mon is but you really have to try it out for yourself to understand. I understand the initial reaction of "no boots flying type mon bad x" but trust me that it's worth it.

let's put it this way. what do balance teams look like rn? rose + buzz + rachi or steela + water type + ground type i guess + defogger or pivot or something. oversimplification, but you get the point. acro + knock alone shred these teams like no tomorrow -- rotom-wash and heat are the only really common safe switchins, but even they just get knocked and u-turned on -- and they can't come back in again (regardless of whether rocks are up), because they're in range of knock + superpower or acro + superpower. acro tornadus thrives in this meta, where all physical move answers are either weak to flying (amoonguss, buzzwole) or trigger defiant (mence, krook, king's shield aegi). 353 is an insane speed tier in this meta, only being outsped by relatively niche picks like zelf and sneasel and scarfers (do not exist, can't get knocked). type-wise let's look at the flying resists in this meta

electric types: already mentioned, but rotom-w/h check but lose long-term and don't appreciate knock at all. also, they have to be careful about defogging or they'll just straight up lose (+2 superpower does 80 to 252 hp rotom). raikou doesn't exist, thundurus-t gets outsped takes a million from knock / u-turn like the rotoms do

steel types: the three steel types rn (aegi, steela, rachi) all HATE being knocked. aegi can't use king's shield or it'll trigger defiant and make tornadus even more threatening. steela can switch in a few times but easily gets worn down after its lefties are removed. jirachi mega loses.

rock types: rhyp is relatively uncommon but you can opt for grass knot if you choose. nihilego seems like a decent switchin (and it is to special torn), but it literally dies 100% of the time to knock + superpower unboosted. lycandusk has about a 50% chance to one-shot you with accelerock if you don't invest (like thund did), but it can't switch in because if you superpower it dies and if you knock it no longer kills you. diancie owns you kinda but also doesn't like knock and i'm the only one that uses her.

again, not trying to make this a whole essay but i really urge you all to just try it out. it's an insane mon with insane matchups into most of the common teams in this meta, and the more you play with it the more you'll discover small interactions and move lines that make it all the more broken (defog denial, mystical fire procs, doubling to catch an intimidate, etc)
 
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romanji

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back for more discussion points
to a
agree
The meta isn't very kind to Lycanroc-D right now, as it wants to have Psychic Fangs, Crunch, and Stone Edge on the same set, but it often has to drop one of them. If it drops Crunch it can't hit Jirachi and Aegislash, if there is no Psychic Fangs, Buzzwole and Amoonguss kinda just sit on it, and without Stone Edge, it struggles to get past Rest Talk Primarina. The return of physically defensive Tangrowth doesn't do it any favors as well, but I think it's still at the top of A when it comes to the VR.

to a
disagree
The popularity of Kommo-o hinders Salamence a bit, but it also is decent against the defensive variants lacking Draco Meteor. Dragon Dance sets are what is saving it, as it can still take advantage of teams relying on Jirachi/Aegislash as their Dragon checks. Intimidate is useful for it checking threats such as Zarude. It has fallen off slightly, but it still should be A+.

Wash Rotom
to a+
agree
Rotom-W has finally had its time to shine in the Crown Tundra meta. Its ability to compress pivoting, speed control, hazard control, and bulky Water-type make it one of the top picks on a wide variety of balance and bulky offense teams. Other utility options such as Toxic, Will-O-Wisp, and Pain Split make it one of the top dogs (or appliance stealing ghost) of the meta.

to a+
agree
As sad as I am to see that this will be rising to OU soon, I am glad it finally got the recognition it deserved. During the time that Buzzwole has been in the tier, many sets haven’t really been optimized up until now, showing the potential it always had. The 3 Attacks Life Orb set’s amazing coverage, great power, excellent defensive typing, and longevity with Roost make it a scary sight to both offensive and defensive teams. The old defensive set has fallen in favor of a more bulky offensive spread, allowing it to not be as passive while still having some of the offensive power. Though more uncommon, Choice Scarf sets can still be threatening to unprepared teams hoping they could just check it with fast Flying-types such as Salamance or Noivern. Absolutely rise this and give it the send off it deserves.
:swole:

to b+
disagree
I already went further into depth on why this should be A, so scroll up to find my reasoning if you want to.


higher; a-/a:
Roserade's extreme popularity in SCL has been a testament to how good it is in the current meta. Its fantastic role compression allow it to be one of the rising stars in this meta. It’s a check to bulky Grass- and Water-types while not being as passive as it’s Grass-type competition, Amoonguss and Tangrowth. Spikes are quite useful as our removal is still ass. (drill and mandi can’t come soon enough) It is also able to take advantage of switch-ins such as Aegislash and Jirachi by being able to set up Spikes so easily, as they can’t come in as well due to the damage stacking up over time. Roserade’s utility options are also very good; Stun Spore is good for punishing switch-ins from faster foes such as Salamence, Aromatherapy is good cleric support, Sleep Powder is useful as an emergency stop to certain sweepers such as non-Overcoat Kommo-o, and Synthesis provides it reliable recovery. Its Toxic immunity and Natural Cure allow it to not be whittled away quickly. Absolutely support a rise.

vs

both b+ with Nidoking only slightly higher
Nidoking doesn't need to run Timid anymore, so it already has the edge when it comes to breaking. I do still support a Nidoqueen rise due to the fact that it is able to sacrifice some of its Speed, as the only notable threat it outspeeds is Tapu Bulu, for some extra bulk. This allows it to be a much better hazard setter due to its higher longevity while still having the offensive pressure it had anyway.


higher; b-/b:
I agree with pretty much everything KM says. If you want to see why, see the post above.

other noms i agreee with:
to a+:
fat rocket never dies

to ur:
There are much better Steel-types and Roserade is a way better Spiker. Prankster isn’t gonna give it enough of a niche to keep it from dropping
 

avarice

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:bw/lucario:
UR -> C
This Pokemon is pretty underrated and VR voting is soon so I figured I'd post here instead of the creative sets thread. Lucario can be a menace on offense that has the tools to punish the slower teams that are becoming more relevant, akin to Soul Clanger being more potent as of late. Lucario does have its fair share of issues, mainly being its 4MSS. However, Lucario can choose its coverage depending on what the rest of the team already covers. Extreme Speed and Close Combat are mandatory for Swords Dance sets, but Ice Punch and Earthquake can round it out nicely to hit primarily Amoonguss and Aegislash respectively. Blaze Kick and Bullet Punch can function too. Nasty Plot sets could use exploration as well. Hope to see more usage of him, especially once Buzzwole rises.

1632682663198.png1632682670634.png1632682676835.png

Don't have much to say on other discussion points, but put some respect on Goltres' name it's still good/shouldn't drop. Klefki definitely should stay ranked with how valuable its typing can be on some offensive builds and stan Tornadus.
 

Hilomilo

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Here's the first half of our update! Drops will come later today. Enjoy!

Rises
:Celesteela: from A to A+: Celesteela has become an excellent defensive pick thanks to its ability to blanket check a whole host of important Pokemon, including Aegislash, Jirachi, Roserade, Nihilego, and many more. Between the progress it can make against checks, its fantastic building synergy with many metagame staples, and the teambuilding value its recent tour showings have proven, Celesteela certainly deserves to return to A+, where it resided at the very beginning of the DLC2 meta.

:Rotom-wash: from A to A+: Rotom-W has been among the tier’s most prevalent and consistent Pokemon for quite some time now. Its typing and movepool give it several applications and lend it synergy on many great offensive and defensive cores alike. Its flagship defensive set has offered the necessary role compression to be a staple gluemon in recent weeks, though teams can also get a lot of mileage out of the Choice Scarf set’s many unique perks.

:Buzzwole: from A- to A+: Buzzwole is another Pokemon that does an excellent job tying teams together. Its blend of offensive and defensive value is simply incredible, offering the capacity to check foes like Mienshao/Lycanroc/Zarude/Krookodile while utilizing its movepool to restrict conventional switch-ins like Salamence and Togekiss. At this stage in the metagame there are very few matches in which Buzzwole won’t contribute a great amount to its team’s progress, which warrants a spot in A+ while we still have it here.

:Mienshao: from A- to A: Mienshao is simply a great offensive pivot that offers enough to the teams it fits on to carve a spot for itself in A. Its synergy with staples like Nihilego, excellent progress making capabilities, and capacity to smack foes like Salamence and Moltres with the appropriate coverage gives it a significant offensive output in most scenarios, though the durability its ability lends it is also a huge boon to its consistency, which is currently deserving of a rise from A-.

:Roserade: from B to A: It’s no secret that Roserade has taken the metagame by storm in recent weeks, emerging as an absolutely incredible hazard setter with the means to make progress in nearly any scenario. The experimentation of options like Aromatherapy or Stun Spore for Jirachi and co has really expanded Roserade’s utility, with its ability to take advantage of foes like Amoonguss/Rotom-W/Primarina also proving deadly. Lately, several meta trends seem to have warped around Roserade’s prominence in at least some way, which is absolutely worth recognizing with a full-subrank rise to A (it actually was only a few votes away from rising to A+!).

:Necrozma: from B+ to A-: Necrozma is rising on account of its many offensive applications and the restricted counterplay it has between its many good sets. Stealth Rock + Meteor Beam sets offer a lot of great utility and role compression to offenses, though its DD and CM sets can also dismantle ill-prepared teams on many occasions thanks to its expansive coverage movepool. Although it can feel a bit understated at times, Necrozma certainly possesses the blend of utility and offensive prowess necessary to hack it in A- right now.

:Thundurus-therian: from B+ to A-: Thundurus-T was obviously among the main Pokemon to benefit from the departure of its Incarnate counterpart, now suffering far less opportunity cost. Its NP set now has far more capacity to harness its devastating wallbreaking capabilities to their full potential, especially as Pokemon like Celesteela and Roserade surge, though pivoting sets also have some potential in spite of their more obvious competition.

:Azelf: from B to B+: Despite the months of controversy surrounding its name, Azelf has finally risen to the top of the B ranks as quite the promising pick as of late. Its pivoting set offers excellent Speed, deceptive power, and a progress-making ability many builders crave in a post-Thundurus metagame. Although its defensive drawbacks still exist, Azelf has definitely progressed to a point at which its niche is worth that of something hovering in the B+/A- realm.

:Diggersby: from B to B+: Last update’s Diggersby drop was probably a bit hasty considering its underestimated ability to tear through many standard team compositions. Swords Dance sets have proven to be particularly nasty lately, even offering the capacity to bypass paper checks like Salamence and Celesteela. Although it doesn’t receive a ton of usage, Diggy’s breaking prowess on its own is enough to keep it afloat at the top of the B ranks.

:Seismitoad: from B to B+: Seismitoad has been a pretty solid utility pick for some time now, offering an excellent Rotom-W matchup as a rocker while additionally checking foes like Nihilego and Jirachi quite well. Its ability is nice for dissuading our many Water-type breakers from spamming their STAB moves, its movepool can yield some surprisingly useful tools, and its role compression is certainly enough for a rise at this stage.

:Zygarde-10%: from B to B+: Zydog has a lot to love as an offensive Pokemon right now between its incredible Speed tier, very spammable STAB move in Thousand Arrows, and ability to take advantage of trends like Roserade’s prominence and the second coming of Celesteela. Its defensive utility is negative, though its offensive prowess is currently the best it’s been.

:Tapu Bulu: from B- to B: Tapu Bulu has experienced a slow burn of a return to grace, its defensive tools being enough to rejoin the B rank after some time away. It’s quite the capable answer to many popular Pokemon, including Keldeo/SD Kommo-o/Zarude/Rotom-W, giving it more capacity now than in weeks past to find a slot on teams.

:Volcanion: from B- to B: There isn’t really much to offer about this rise that we didn’t cover in the last update. Volcanion is simply just a strong pick for a wallbreaker that was previously overlooked, offering neat tools between its set versatility, capacity to check foes like specs Primarina and Entei, and the difficulty many teams encounter pivoting into Steam Eruption with Salamence trending downward and Kommo-o taking over as the tier’s “main” Dragon-type.

:Tornadus: from C to B: Tornadus sees a huge rise for inarguably being among the biggest beneficiaries of Thundurus’s departure. It offers the same Speed tier that Thundurus did as well as the progress making capabilities U-turn and Knock Off often lend a Pokemon of its nature. With these tools and its STAB/coverage it can take advantage of a lot of current balance structures, and could very well rise further in the future depending on how its niche in the tier develops.

:Articuno: from C to C+: Articuno has a well defined niche on fatter builds that is worth placing it above the rest of C. A decent matchup against other stalls, great bulk that lets it check Roserade/Primarina/etc, and a fantastic supportive movepool are all among some of the more notable qualities that enable its rise to C+.

:Grimmsnarl: from D to C+: Grimmsnarl has seen some sparing usage in tours recently that has helped verify its niche in the tier. Although it still is far from its former grace as a screens setter, it has proven to manage well enough with Light Clay to be a solid supportive option for various HO staples, warranting its escape from D.

:Crobat: from UR to C: Crobat has carved a niche as an option for both hazard removal and Speed control in recent weeks. It matches up well against the Roserade/Buzzwole core running around and has an excellent Speed tier for the meta, though it still has plenty room to be further explored in the coming weeks given the several interesting utility options in its arsenal, and I guess Nasty Plot if you’re Estarossa.

:Lucario: from UR to C: Lucario’s 4mss and competition from other Fighting-types still hurt it a fair bit, though its ability to pressure the many slower teams running around also can’t go unnoticed. Swords Dance presents a good amount of prowess between its power, strong priority, and capacity to bypass paper checks depending on the coverage it opts for. Although it requires its fair share of support, Lucario certainly has the offensive toolkit to succeed in the metagame and could certainly define a clearer niche with more time for exploration.

:Regidrago: from UR to C: Regidrago is a decent anti-meta pick with a pretty underrated but nasty offensive prowess. Choice Scarf offers incredible power and the ability to surprise many common Pokemon with its enhanced Speed as evidenced by the replays provided in pif’s post. Although Fairy-types present themselves as a fair weakness, Regidrago can still prove pretty devastating under the correct supportive conditions and against nearly any ill-prepared team.

:Sneasel: from UR to C: It may appear a bit unorthodox at first, though Sneasel’s scary Speed and incredibly potent STAB combo have allowed it to establish a genuine offensive niche in the metagame. Both CB and SD sets have proven useful in maximizing the potential of its offensive tools, offering very spammable STAB moves that threaten the bulk of the tier’s top threats.
 

Hilomilo

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Here are our drops! I'm very tired so give me some grace if these aren't written as well as the rises post :Smogjynx: enjoy!

Drops
:Aegislash: from S to A+: Aegislash may be still excellent, though the VR team seemed to be in agreement that this stage of the metagame doesn’t currently warrant an S rank. While still among the most consistent picks in the tier, it isn’t the same domineering presence it once was, especially as Pokemon that can take advantage of its flagship Toxic set like Roserade and Celesteela come into their own. It’s still important to account for in building, but has developed to a state in which many teams are more than prepared for its most potent set.

:Amoonguss: from A+ to A: It’s 1 am and I don’t want to write about this thing for the millionth time oops. Amoonguss is still excellent but exists at a relatively equal state in the metagame to its most direct competition in Tangrowth, who is more equipped to pressure Pokemon like Kommo-o and Roserade thanks to its movepool. For now, ranking both Regenerator Grass-types in A seems optimal.

:Lycanroc-dusk: from A+ to A: Although it is still a fearsome offensive presence, Lycanroc’s wallbreaking capabilities don’t feel as accessible now as in months past. It struggles to pick up kills as efficiently while Buzzwole/Scarf Jirachi/Celesteela surge and foes like Amoonguss and Aegislash maintain strong spots in the metagame, complicating both its durability and 4mss.

:Salamence: from A+ to A: Salamence has fallen off a fair amount from its former status as a staple gluemon. It can be a bit awkward between suffering from 4mss and struggling to reliably check everything it’d like to in a given match, though Kommo-o has also began occupying a space as the tier’s ‘main’ Dragon-type, which complicates Salamence’s splashability. DD sets are still quite scary, though Salamence isn’t as urgent a fit in recent weeks, which reflects its drop from A+.

:Azumarill: from A to A-: Azumarill rode the wave of UU’s rain hype pretty well a few months back, though as rain has fallen off, it has too. It struggles as a slow wallbreaker with average defensive utility in a sea of competitors for both its Water- and Fairy-type slots. Its low recent tour usage also pales in comparison to anything else currently in A, which calls for a drop.

:Pelipper: from A- to B+: Rain has been quite divisive in the past, though at this stage of the meta it feels far more inconsistent than its initial inception. Many team compositions have found ways of naturally developing around rain’s prowess, turning the archetype into a bit of a matchup fish that appreciates an HO matchup a lot more than the tier’s very common slower builds. Pelipper dropping from A- adequately reflects the drop in consistency rain teams have suffered, though resident Swift Swimmer Barraskewda will share a spot with Pelipper in B+ for its current applications outside of rain, being quite the nice pick for a Water-type wallbreaker in a Roserade-ruled metagame.

:Crawdaunt: :Kingdra: from B to B-: There isn’t too much to elaborate on with these two dropping. Their reasons for rising to B were specific to their niches on rain builds, so with their preferred archetype falling out of favor lately it only makes sense for their ranks to correspondingly lower.

:Obstagoon: from B to B-: Obstagoon has been a bit of an awkward pick for quite some time now. Despite its impressive damage output, it generally fails to perform any given role that is to-die-for in teambuilding, especially given the utility other Dark-types like Krookodile and Zarude offer. As Buzzwole trends and Aegislash becomes less immediately urgent to check, it makes sense for Obstagoon to drop from its long-time place in B.

:Incineroar: from C+ to C: Incineroar barely clings onto a niche on account of its ability to blanket check foes like Aegislash and Zarude. However, it has suffered many flaws for quite some time now. Keldeo/Kommo-o/Primarina all being top-tier breakers really eats into its consistency, while it also suffers fairly notable competition given the high amount of other Dark-types that currently offer a lot of utility and teambuliding value.

:Klefki: from C+ to C: Klefki has it a bit rough as a Spiker that often fails to carve a spot on teams over Roserade or even Froslass, as well as a Steel-type that suffers immense competition from many steadier options, like Aegislash and Celesteela. Its typing can still be pretty clutch in checking Roserade, Zarude, Goltres, and various other foes, though, which helps it cling onto a rank alongside the unique perks its movepool and Prankster lend it.

:Milotic: from C to UR: There really isn’t much reason to use Milotic lately given the bevy of strong options for bulky Water-types that just offer way more utility, whether that’s a more practical ability, a useful secondary typing, or more meaningful movepool perks that let them stand out more.

With our update now concluded I'm opening this thread back up, though I'd advise waiting a bit for the post-shifts metagame to settle before making posts. Be kind and happy posting!
 

mushamu

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:ss/golisopod:
Hey I recently started building this tier again and one pokemon that is criminally underrated and stuck out to me as something that should absolutely be ranked is golisopod. As of now Spikes are a very effective way to make progress in UU, and golisopod is amazing offensively and defensively even without spikes. Spikes + knock off + defensive threat is a deadly combination that golisopod wields, much like mew. First impression is amazing for picking off random threats like zarude and krookodile and the mere threat of it gives golisopod free turns to click spikes and knock off all over the opponents team. It has a good matchup against all of the new drops with first impression killing both of the deadly dragons and the rest losing to knock off + leech life+ liquidation (Slowking, excadrill, mandibuzz) or just being spikes fodder (skarmory), and can click spikes/other attacks against a decent amount of the higher ranked pokemon. Rose is obviously a really good spiker but it can be awkward sometimes as it’s kinda slow and frail defensively so you have to keep an eye out for a lot of common faster pokemon in the tier like diggersby, Latias, and Zarude whereas golisopod has a much better matchup against these pokemon. It should also be noted that the addition of excadrill as a spinner hurts roserades viability noticeably. As time goes on I can definitely see golisopod becoming one of, if not the primary spiker in UU but for now throwing it somewhere in B is fine for now in my opinion.

Other random reasons as to why golisopod is good:

- first impression gives you a good matchup against rain teams which are traditionally nasty towards offense due to how scary skewda under rain is
- emergency exit buying you a turn can easily give you the upper hand in certain situations especially in fast paced games which spikes force
- golisopod is one of the few pokemon in the tier that can come in vs mamoswine's STAB combination
- bug typing gives you plenty of nice resists in ground and fighting meaning you can come in more comfortably against mons like zydog, diggersby, buzzwole, and mienshao especially with its 140 defense
- it has a good matchup against common spinners in excadrill and starmie and the defog users all hate knock off with the exception of rotom w
- it looks cool and its posture shows that it knows it is going to win the game

Tldr; golisopod provides excellent role compression in one slot. It has a lot of traits which make it a great spiker, and both a defensive and offensive threat by virtue of typing/bulk/movepool.
 
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:ss/golisopod:
Hey I recently started building this tier again and one pokemon that is criminally underrated and stuck out to me as something that should absolutely be ranked is golisopod. As of now Spikes are a very effective way to make progress in UU, and golisopod is amazing offensively and defensively even without spikes. Spikes + knock off + defensive threat is a deadly combination that golisopod wields, much like mew. First impression is amazing for picking off random threats like zarude and krookodile and the mere threat of it gives golisopod free turns to click spikes and knock off all over the opponents team. It has a good matchup against all of the new drops with first impression killing both of the deadly dragons and the rest losing to knock off + leech life+ liquidation (Slowking, excadrill, mandibuzz) or just being spikes fodder (skarmory), and can click spikes/other attacks against a decent amount of the higher ranked pokemon. Rose is obviously a really good spiker but it can be awkward sometimes as it’s kinda slow and frail defensively so you have to keep an eye out for a lot of common faster pokemon in the tier like diggersby, Latias, and Zarude whereas golisopod has a much better matchup against these pokemon. It should also be noted that the addition of excadrill as a spinner hurts roserades viability noticeably. As time goes on I can definitely see golisopod becoming one of, if not the primary spiker in UU but for now throwing it somewhere in B is fine for now in my opinion.

Other random reasons as to why golisopod is good:

- first impression gives you a good matchup against rain teams which are traditionally nasty towards offense due to how scary skewda under rain is
- emergency exit buying you a turn can easily give you the upper hand in certain situations especially in fast paced games which spikes force
- golisopod is one of the few pokemon in the tier that can come in vs mamoswine's STAB combination
- bug typing gives you plenty of nice resists in ground and fighting meaning you can come in more comfortably against mons like zydog, diggersby, buzzwole, and mienshao especially with its 140 defense
- it has a good matchup against common spinners in excadrill and starmie and the defog users all hate knock off with the exception of rotom w
- it looks cool and its posture shows that it knows it is going to win the game

Tldr; golisopod provides excellent role compression in one slot. It has a lot of traits which make it a great spiker, and both a defensive and offensive threat by virtue of typing/bulk/movepool.
Could you please add some replays to your post? As this pokemon is UR right now, I think you should provide replays to make your arguments stronger. Plus, I'd like to add my own ideas about this pick. I particularly have never tried :Golisopod:, but your claims seem to be fair convincing. Nonetheless, I think this pokemon is in an odd position right now because of the introduction of :Skarmory: to the tier, as it is one of the best Spikes setters even in OU. You said that :Golisopod: doesn't need to run Spikes to be effective, and I think that claim should be better explained because as a Spike setter :Golisopod: seems to be outclassed. In essence, my question is how :Golisopod: can differentiate itself from :Skarmory: and :Roselia:?

Edit: I forgot about :Roselia: as a Spikes setter too.
 
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mushamu

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Could you please add some replays to your post? As this pokemon is UR right now, I think you should provide replays to make your arguments stronger. Plus, I'd like to add my own ideas about this pick. I particularly have never tried :Golisopod:, but your claims seem to be fair convincing. Nonetheless, I think this pokemon is in an odd position right now because of the introduction of :Skarmory: to the tier, as it is one of the best Spikes setters even in OU. You said that :Golisopod: doesn't need to run Spikes to be effective, and I think that claim should be better explained because as a Spike setter :Golisopod: seems to be outclassed. In essence, my question is how :Golisopod: can differentiate itself from :Skarmory: and :Roselia:?

Edit: I forgot about :Roselia: as a Spikes setter too.
I had spikesless golisopod on a team that had spikes diggersby, and instead ran 4 attacks with first impression/leech life/liquidation/knock off which hits a majority of the tier one way another aside from skarm. It only really goes to show how good golisopod is as a pokemon, not just a hazard setter, because it answers a lot of the tier naturally while spreading knock and providing momentum with emergency exit. Skarm is cool but is way different than golisopod in its role as a spiker; not going to say if one is better over the other but golisopod has a lot of valuable trades compared to skarm or roserade that doesn't make it outclassed.

Compared to skarm and rose, golisopod has:

- knock off; spikes + knock off is a great way to force progress in virtually any tier especially when boots are prominent and UU does not have access to a lot of good knock off absorbers. Many offensive pokemon in the tier take advantage of this to make progress like azelf and mienshao and golisopod is no different. A huge reason as to why mew was so scary was because it had knock off and spikes combined with good bulk which made it great at forcing progress and setting spikes simultaneously. Golisopod here is very similar.

:latias: :hydreigon:
- first impression which picks off a lot of threats in the tier. I didnt realize barraskewda rose to OU when writing my initial post but outside of the fish first impression kills both of the broken dragons (hydreigon, latias) which are otherwise hard to answer both defensively and offensively. Golisopod can come in on both of them and force the threat of first impression to click knock/spikes; it can even switch in once using emergency exit and switch out to an answer and sometimes in fast paced games that's extremely valuable. A huge reason as to why i haven't been having as much trouble with the two dragons is that golisopod makes the matchup so much better against them and is one of the huge roles it can compress.

:moltres: :salamence: :starmie: :excadrill: :mandibuzz::togekiss:
- a good matchup against basically all hazard removal besides rotom-w. Liquidation/leech life/knock off kills spinners like starmie and excadrill while the defoggers like salamence, moltres, and mandibuzz hate knock off. Skarm cant beat starmie, roserade cant beat excadrill (and psyshock starmie) while neither like dealing with certain defoggers too much.

- great offensive presence compared to rose and skarm. Knock/liquidation/leech life fucks up 90% of the tier with good prediction. Skarm is great defensively but is really passive with its main ways of forcing progress being toxic/body press which is pretty poor. Rose is reliant on grass/poison/sometimes shadow ball as coverage which means it can't touch certain pokemon like nihilego and steels.

I dont have many replays rn but I have two which should give u an idea of how golisopod works. Ill add some more in later if i get the chance:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1434278176 - golisopod comes in vs lycanroc and instantly forces the opponent to pick between letting something take a first impression or liquidation. Best case scenario Lycanroc psychic fangs/close combats, which it did, but even if it stone edges golisopod lives one (which is impressive) and switches into scarf hydreigon using emergency exit then gives me more outs to win.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-584426 - golisopod gets a good matchup where it can beat the main spinner and spike vs krook/buzzwole. Even after it gets burned its not useless since it provides a free switchin to azelf with emergency exit so it can break instead when golisopod no longer can. In the scenario where it didnt get burned it would have just kept spiking/attacking to force progress.

The bottom line is golisopod has a unique set of traits which differentiates itself from skarm/roserade in many different ways. I think it's unfair to say golisopod is outclassed by them as a spiker because of this, especially when it doesn't even need spikes to be good.
 
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:bw/porygon-z: UR -> B-

Porygon-Z @ Choice Specs
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tri Attack
- Shadow Ball
- Thunderbolt
- Trick

I was looking for Pokemon that can overwhelm the specially defensive mons, namely the steels and slowking, for Pokemon like Drill and Latias and Porygon-Z just fit the bill pretty well honestly. It can catch Rachi with Shadow Ball, Celesteela with Tbolt, and SpDef Drill isn't fond of taking repeated Tri-Attacks. I say SpDef drill because offensive sets get 2HKOed raw by Tri-Attack most of the time so that's not switching in. I find it fun to pair it with some Helm mon like Skarm or Tang so that drill and rachi get slightly more worn down for the next attack, and when in doubt there's a funny Trick button to click.

:Jirachi: 252 SpA Choice Specs Porygon-Z Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 16 SpD Jirachi: 264-312 (65.3 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Note: I am using 16 SpDef on Rachi because it needs the additional Speed EVs to outspeed Hydreigon

:Celesteela: 252 SpA Choice Specs Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 216-256 (54.2 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

:slowking: 252 SpA Choice Specs Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 204-242 (51.7 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

:slowking: 252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 182-216 (46.1 - 54.8%) -- 62.1% chance to 2HKO
Knock Off King and that's a guaranteed 2HKO after Rocks. Some of them don't even use max SpDef either which is all the better

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1432927068-43z8q9tp0u1ff8t9fsuwa51rvvwdkmkpw -
:Excadrill: 252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Excadrill: 190-224 (52.6 - 62%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1434276066-bcr52jwzf9df1l30al5nylmk15nlm2ipw - Trick shenanigans ruined Steela, and Pory's neat speed tier means it can hit Gyarados and Kommo-o before a boost, which would have been fantastic against Clangsoul sets from the latter but still prevented it from setting up at all.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1434822199-4uahp0xqhj8dh0oy58g097vg3u2rbt5pw - It's just passable bulk means that it can tank one hit and then go in for another kill, as shown when it took out Azelf. Aside from that Drill was also gonna be chipped badly even if it was still alive because Pory's speed tier gets the jump on it.

Conclusion: Use this, it's pretty good at taking advantage of the bulky cores people are using at the moment.
 
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Hey guys, I hope you're all having a good day! It's been a few weeks since shifts, so I thought I'd talk about where the new drops might fit and a few mons that should rise or drop!

NEW MONS

:latias: New to S: Latias has returned from the shackles of UUBL and immediately resumed its reign as the queen of UU. Its movepool is really expansive, allowing it to change it moveset to beat its checks, such as running Thunderbolt to beat Mandibuzz and Primarina or running Mystical Fire to beat Aegislash and Excadrill.

:hydreigon: New to A+: The other one of the incredibly strong Dragons we got, Hydriegon is a complete monster, running over every mon not named Chansey or Primarina like a freight train. Nasty Plot sets in particular are incredibly dangerous, being able to inflict substantial damage on the aforementioned mons if it gets enough boosts. The only things keeping it from the S rank IMO are its poor speed and relative fraility, especially when compared to Latias. Still, it's definitely one of the biggest threats in the tier right now and deserves an A+ rank.

:excadrill: New to A+: Excadrill is one of the best methods of role compression in the tier right now. It's a hazard setter, a hazard remover, and speed control all in one. That combined with great matchups against tier staples like Aegislash, Nihilego, the Rotoms, and Hatterene make it an excellent team member and one that you can't go wrong with putting on your team.

:slowking: New to A: Slowking is back to do Slowking things. Future Sight support is amazing in a fat and bulky metagame like this, allowing Slowking to dent walls like Amoonguss while also providing invaluable support to wallbreakers like Mienshao and Conk. There are a lot of Dark types running around right now, which makes me hesitant to put Slowking in A+, but still an excellent mon.

:skarmory: New to A: Skarm is back to do Skarm things. Spikes offense teams were already on the rise recently, and now we have the best Spikes setter to boost the viability of these teams even further. Nothing more to say about this one really, it was good before and it's still good now.

:swampert: New to B+: While not as good of a Rocks setter as the mole, Swampert is still a solid choice for a Rocker. Water/Ground is an amazing defensive typing, it can make progress by pivoting, and Yawn/Toxic support is great.

:mandibuzz: New to B: So, yeah, Mandi isn't as good as I wanted it to be. :cri: The bone birb just has the worst case of 4MSS we've seen in a long time: it wants to run Defog, Roost, Foul Play, Knock Off, U-turn, Toxic, and a Flying move all at the same time, and that makes it hard to fit on teams. Its defensive typing is great for checking Aegi and soft checking Drei and non-Tbolt Lati, and Overcoat is nice for stopping sussy baka Amoong shenanigans, but it just can't accomplish what it wants to do, which makes it the lowest ranking of the new drops for me.

RISES

:mienshao: A to A+: Mienshao really loves the changes in the meta that occurred as a result of these tier shifts. Having a Speed tier that lets it outrun the three best drops in Lati, Drei, and Exca except if Exca is in sand but who runs Sand teams anyways rolfamo is just incredible. It can also cripple mons that are supposed to counter it, like Slowking, with Knock Off, allowing it to make incredible progress. Definitely one of the best mons in the tier right now.

:conkeldurr: B- to B+/A-: Gee wilikers, a tier shift that caused a large amount of Dark and Steel types to drop makes the Fighting types in the meta better! Who would've thought? In all seriousness, Conk is kinda crazy right now lol. The meta has shifted heavily towards fat/balance teams, and if there's one thing Conk is good at, it's shredding balance teams. We also got Slowking in these shifts, who is a really amazing partner for Conk since its Future Sight blows holes in whatever Conk can't break. Pif made a really good post in the NP thread highlighting why Conk has gotten so good lately, and I recommend checking it out. The jump may be too big, but IMO Conk really deserves it right now.

DROPS

:roserade: A to A-: Man, these shifts did not treat Roserade well in the slightest. Not only did it lose its best partner in crime in Buzzwole, but it also got a direct competitor in Skarmory. And that competitor is much better in every way: a better defensive typing, reliable recovery, and much better defensive stats overall. It doesn't help that Roserade is completely stonewalled by Skarm lol. I still think it should stay in the A ranks because unlike Skarm it beats Rotom-W, but that's really its only niche over Skarm, so it should drop.

:seismitoad: B+ to B: Another mon that got absolutely cucked by these shifts. Pelipper is gone now so Seismitoad can no longer run rain sweeping sets yes I know we still have Politoed but that mon is straight cheeks lol and in terms of defensive Rockers, we got Swampert, which completely outclasses Seismitoad in that role. Seismitoad just got the short end of the stick with these drops, and I think it should drop to reflect that.

:nihilego: A to A-: Potentially a hot take, but I feel like Nihilego has gotten worse lately. The main reason why it rose was that it was a hazard setter that could deal with Rotom-H, but Rotom-H has taken a massive hit in viability and Rotom-W, which completely cucks Nihilego, has become much better. We also have Excadrill now, and not only does it deal with Rotom-W better than Nihilego, Nihilego also gets shat on by Excadrill. Other new drops like Swampert and Slowking also shit on Nihilego, forcing it to run Grass Knot and limiting its movepool potential. Still really scary if Beast Boost gets going, but IMO it doesn't deserve to be in the same rank as mons like Jirachi and Zarude.

THOUGHTS ON NOMS ALREADY MADE

:golisopod: :porygon-z: These two should definitely be ranked. Goli carves a niche for itself as a Spikes setter with powerful priority, and PZ is basically the special attacking version of Conk, able to shred fatter teams without blinking. They both have their merits and should be ranked to reflect those merits.

Anyways, that's it from me! Would love to hear where you guys think the new drops should be ranked and what older mons should rise/drop. See you all next time! :blobuwu:
 
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:mandibuzz: New to B: So, yeah, Mandi isn't as good as I wanted it to be. :cri: The bone birb just has the worst case of 4MSS we've seen in a long time: it wants to run Defog, Roost, Foul Play, Knock Off, U-turn, Toxic, and a Flying move all at the same time, and that makes it hard to fit on teams. Its defensive typing is great for checking Aegi and soft checking Drei and non-Tbolt Lati, and Overcoat is nice for stopping sussy baka Amoong shenanigans, but it just can't accomplish what it wants to do, which makes it the lowest ranking of the new drops for me.
Mandibuzz often drops defog, as its best set is foul play, roost, knock/toxic, turn. It can check a bunch of stuff such as dd gyara, mence in general, latias, can pivot in on specs hydreigon with 216+, excadrill, with knock off it can threaten a bunch of things such as nihilego, celesteela leftovers, azumarill's band, and nidoking's life orb, with toxic it threatens mons like bulu, kommo-o, hydreigon, and keldeo that can abuse it otherwise. It rarely runs brave bird from what I see and sticks with dark stab as it provides nothing besides hitting bulu for 60 and amoonguss and tang for 40. I believe it should be B+/A-, it helps against the bulky stuff of the metagame and can stand in the face of powerful new threats.
 

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