Stall Teams in UU

pokemonisfun

Formerly pokeisfun
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This thread can be a valuable resource for anyone who plays UU because you will always have the option to build a stall team and even if you elect to use a faster paced team you will always have a chance to be matched up against a stall team, whether on the ladder or in a tournament or in friendly games.

I would like for you to discuss anything to do with stall in the current metagame (current as in constantly evolving) but if you want a starting point, these points can certainly spark a discussion

  • What are examples of successful stall teams?
  • What Pokemon are common in stall teams?
  • What Pokemon are threatening to stall teams?
  • What strategies do stall teams use?
  • Compared to other playstyles, how strong is stall?
I will edit this post with really good stall teams if I see any around in the thread if people actually post in the thread (which you should stall is really fun!!!)
 
Tangrowth+Slowbro Regenerator Core is one of the best stall tactics I have seen regularly.
With the advent of Eviolite, I see a lot more Pokemon running stall sets when other things are expected.
Sturdy+Berry Juice+Recycle is a big one for toxic stallers. I have seen that on a few different pokes.

I would say that stall beats out HO, but not BO with cleric support. Stall is too reliant on status a lot of the time.
 
Chansey and Mega Aggron can both carry teams so hard it's not even funny. I'm not saying you can't build viable stall without them obviously but realistically they contribute immensely to the playstyle's viability in UU.
Anyway one Pokemon I've commented on briefly in SQSA thread is Perish Song Celebi. Here's my set:
Celebi @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Def
Calm Nature
- Perish Song
- Recover
- Giga Drain
- Psyshock
Obviously the spread is very much adaptable to your needs; I'm using max SpD and Psyshock because I'm paranoid about CM Keldeo but Heal Bell, status and SR are all viable options. Anyway the move I really want to showcase here is Perish Song because bulky setup sweepers like Crocune or Zygarde can be really hard to check for stall (Suicune can't be poisoned because of Rest, Zygarde's Dragon Tail "outspeeds" most other forms of phazing...) and the ability to checkmate them in the endgame is just so nice. It also helps with like stall vs. Chansey situations where the opposing player is determined to attempt to PP stall you, no doubt waiting for that Seismic Toss crit.


Threats to stall I've used include Taunt + WoW Chandelure, Stallbreaker Mew and Swords Dance Guts Heracross. Chandy and Mew can be played around (by like Milotic and apparently Aromatisse respectively) but I'd be interested to hear what stall users can think of / are using to deal with SD Hera (the set I'm thinking of goes sd / cc / megahorn / knock off or facade)
 
Personally, I hate stall. I've never been good at using it and hate fighting it. The amount of time and effort you need to put into these teams to either use them or break them just sucks. There are however, Pokemon that are rather good at it;

Mew
Crobat
Tornadus-Therian
Crawdaunt
Defog Users

Mew and Crobat are stallbreakers. Their fast taunts, ability to spread crippling status, and heal off any residual damage allow them to give unprepared stall teams hell. Sableye was really good at this last generation, but currently resides in OU. Tornadus-Therian and Crawdaunt are both common Knock-Off users, the former also carries Taunt, and through the use of Knock Off, really slow down stall teams. Without the gradual leftovers recovery, they quickly find themselves up Shit's Creek without a paddle. Crawdaunt also has the distinct ability of being really strong, and is most likely capable of breaking through a lot of members commonly found on stall teams. I mention defog users here as a good way to shut down stall teams, but they're more of a deterrent; without the constant hazards damage, most stall teams can fail to deliver fatal amounts of damage, and will find themselves getting beat down before they break their opposition.

I want to point out that full-stall teams don't work anymore, and that they do require offensive elements to be successful.
 
chansey is probably a staple in stall teams since it is soooooo good. i dont know what's the best stalling strategy, but i think spikes/stealth rock and roar/whirlwind/dragon tail is a good one. i dont see defog as being a direct threat for stall teams, since defoggers dont fare well against stall (zapdos is succeptible to toxic, empoleon has no recovery, etc). i see, however, taunt + roost mew as the ultimate stallbreaker; backed by heal bell support, the mew set is just untouchable by stall teams, unless if they run xatu, but that is very frail and generally bad.
 

CoolStoryBrobat

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Stall's a nuisance and I absolutely can't stand using or playing against it these days since I've gotten pretty impatient. And though this is mostly theorizing, I'm sure this one 'mon can do quite a number to most common Stall cores by itself:


Chandelure @ Life Orb
Trait: Flash Fire/Infiltrator
EVs: 68 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 184 Spe
Modest Nature
- Fire Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Substitute
- Pain Split

Good ol' SubSplit Chandelure, ripped straight out of Gen 5 off its analysis, EVs and all. The spread was to outpace Adamant Honchkrow, while hitting hard as possible. Due to the significantly-declined presence of Snorlax (Which this set can actually beat one-on-one anyway), it's slightly less of a hassle to use and set it up, and it does a number to several Pokemon who you often see on Stall teams: Mew, Celebi, Mega Aggron, Florges, Zapdos, Chansey, Umbreon, Slowbro, and then some. The few Pokemon mentioned who it isn't able to 2HKO with its ridiculous SpA boosted by Life Orb (Umbreon, Chansey and Florges) are able to be Subbed up on (Umbreon being the only one actually able to reliably break its Subs) and then stripped of their HP by Pain Split, to get blasted afterwards for significant damage.

It's a good way to put significant pressure on Stall teams (Or even several defensive cores in general) to eventually break them down. Most of its offensive checks/counters like Hydreigon, Crawdaunt, and Houndoom are significantly less common on full-blown Stall teams, which is what really lets Chandelure shine against them.

...Then again Specs + Trick does the job too I guess if you have 10/10 prediction skills and a sweeper like SD Cobalion or something to put pressure on what it can't break.
 

Deluks917

Ride on Shooting Star
I really like mega blastoise on stall these days. Lets you be alot more agressive with your hazards while still allowing you to use Sr weak pokemon. Otherwise in alot of cases (say you need healthy Zapdos) their Sr actually forces you to waste time defogging. Makes it so hard to keep up pressure.
 
On stall, Mega Aggron + Florges is excellent. With the new omnipresence of Defog, you can have mons that don't suck to clear hazards, like Zapdos, Latias, and Mew, ALL of which have reliable recovery. The only Spiker I really use is Roserade, b/c it reliably sets up Spikes and checks a bunch of threats. Chesnaught is pretty meh, imho. Crawdaunt, which surprisingly isn't mentioned yet, is a GIGANTIC threat to stall teams, especially if it decides to run SD for filler. Usually, you want Mega Aggron and another mon that can take hits from +2 crab, and you're still not safe just because of its sheer power. Mew is another mon that takes a huge dump on stall, but stallbreaker Mew is rare and Defog variants are more common. Overall, stall has huge potential in UU and is a playstyle I have used to successful effect (just make sure to wear down OPPOSING defog users).
Also, you almost always need a win condition for stall or else you're screwed vs opposing stall.
P.S a lot of mons mentioned here are covered in most stall teams, e.g Mega Aggron and/or Zapdos for Torn-T, P2/Snorlax/Chansey for Chandy, special attackers, and other excellent Pokemon that can cover stall mons. Also Crobat isn't nearly as threatening as Mew imho.
 

perplexingpool

Banned deucer.
I've found Chesnaught to be actually really effective on a wide variety of teams, including stall. It has a solid defensive typing allowing it to come in on things like Crawdaunt, and it can support the team in a variety of ways, including Leech Seed and Spikes.
 
A lot of you might know me on Showdown as Satanjr so you already know I HATE STALL, it's the most ridiculous thing ever and it's lame as hell, how the fuck people can honestly sit there and want to play stall as if the world isnt revolving around everyone else and not just their selfish ass's kills me mentally.

I've been using a very offensive Core of the two following pokemon to take on stall

Magnezone @ Leftovers
Ability: Analytic
EVs: 252 SAtk / 248 HP / 8 SDef
Modest Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Substitute

Mienshao (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Drain Punch
- Stone Edge

The raw offense of Mienshao and the typing of zone help me stop stall stone cold, Most of te time I'm either U-turning into zone to take a fariy's toxic, Or I'm drain punching Umbreon to hell U-turn lets me get away from mew and his WoW so i can go to zone and just smack him up with some tbolts till its dead, Zone beats ANY fairy in UU, and helps vs walls due to analytic which makes him hit like a truck, knock off on Mienshao for getting rid of those items, the main idea is to break the stall down before it sets up cos if it gets up and running its pretty much gg for you
 
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termi

bite the future and fuck the past
is a Tiering Contributor
A lot of you might know me on Showdown as Satanjr so you already know I HATE STALL, it's the most ridiculous thing ever and it's lame as hell, how the fuck people can honestly sit there and want to play stall as if the world isnt revolving around everyone else and not just their selfish ass's kills me mentally.

I've been using a very offensive Core of the two following pokemon to take on stall

Magnezone @ Leftovers
Ability: Analytic
EVs: 252 SAtk / 248 HP / 8 SDef
Modest Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Substitute

Mienshao (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Drain Punch
- Stone Edge

The raw offense of Mienshao and the typing of zone help me stop stall stone cold, Most of te time I'm either U-turning into zone to take a fariy's toxic, Or I'm drain punching Umbreon to hell U-turn lets me get away from mew and his WoW so i can go to zone and just smack him up with some tbolts till its dead, Zone beats ANY fairy in UU, and helps vs walls due to analytic which makes him hit like a truck, knock off on Mienshao for getting rid of those items, the main idea is to break the stall down before it sets up cos if it gets up and running its pretty much gg for you
stall ez unfair ;______;
 
I've never run Full stall, but I sometimes like to run a stallish core made from about 3-4 'mons and then one wallbreaker and a sweeper.

As for Stall itself, it benefitted hugely from the bans of Megacham, Diggersby and the like. However they often lose to teams that carry Clerics and Defoggers/Rapid Spinners or Voltswitch Teams that put a lot of pressure on it. The new Game Mechanics also didn't really help Stall, with Knock Off being everywhere and the Defog Buff removing hazards. Also I think that Stall didn't benefit from this Generation as much.

So yeah, I think Stall isn't nearly as threatening as it used to be, however it is still annoying and an experienced user (which has time on his hands) can pull wins out of it for sure.

Also
Tangrowth+Slowbro Regenerator Core is one of the best stall tactics I have seen regularly.
With the advent of Eviolite, I see a lot more Pokemon running stall sets when other things are expected.
Sturdy+Berry Juice+Recycle is a big one for toxic stallers. I have seen that on a few different pokes.

I would say that stall beats out HO, but not BO with cleric support. Stall is too reliant on status a lot of the time.
This isn't Little Cup bro. Unless you run Lvl. 1 Magnemite, that won't work
 

pokemonisfun

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I'm responding to everyone who posted in this thread. Feel free to like this post or my op or any post I make on the forums. Or better yet all my posts. I really like getting likes I don't know why. Whenever I get an alert I get seriously excited. Its crazy. I know you think I might be joking but no way man getting notifications here and on Facebook is like my entire life. Also you can follow me here on Smogon. I don't actually know what that does but I like having followers. It really makes me feel important.

I once played against a team where everyone had regenerater. I was tearing my hair out.
Cool story but that's not how you spell regenerator nor does that really make a team stall.

Tangrowth+Slowbro Regenerator Core is one of the best stall tactics I have seen regularly.
With the advent of Eviolite, I see a lot more Pokemon running stall sets when other things are expected.
Sturdy+Berry Juice+Recycle is a big one for toxic stallers. I have seen that on a few different pokes.

I would say that stall beats out HO, but not BO with cleric support. Stall is too reliant on status a lot of the time.
That is a somewhat interesting core that seems to have little special defense and severe problems with certain types like Dragon and Dark and Bug which seem to rip through the duo quite easily. Let's see some examples of other Pokemon running stall sets when others are expected because I cannot think of any really. No berry juice please.

Chansey and Mega Aggron can both carry teams so hard it's not even funny. I'm not saying you can't build viable stall without them obviously but realistically they contribute immensely to the playstyle's viability in UU.
Anyway one Pokemon I've commented on briefly in SQSA thread is Perish Song Celebi. Here's my set:
Celebi @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Def
Calm Nature
- Perish Song
- Recover
- Giga Drain
- Psyshock
Obviously the spread is very much adaptable to your needs; I'm using max SpD and Psyshock because I'm paranoid about CM Keldeo but Heal Bell, status and SR are all viable options. Anyway the move I really want to showcase here is Perish Song because bulky setup sweepers like Crocune or Zygarde can be really hard to check for stall (Suicune can't be poisoned because of Rest, Zygarde's Dragon Tail "outspeeds" most other forms of phazing...) and the ability to checkmate them in the endgame is just so nice. It also helps with like stall vs. Chansey situations where the opposing player is determined to attempt to PP stall you, no doubt waiting for that Seismic Toss crit.


Threats to stall I've used include Taunt + WoW Chandelure, Stallbreaker Mew and Swords Dance Guts Heracross. Chandy and Mew can be played around (by like Milotic and apparently Aromatisse respectively) but I'd be interested to hear what stall users can think of / are using to deal with SD Hera (the set I'm thinking of goes sd / cc / megahorn / knock off or facade)
#usingillegalmovesets

I am extremely skeptical about your Celebi usage but you did mention one thing important to stall, Perish Song. This I am sure will be helpful in beating last Pokemon Curse Aggron and similar Pokemon that could threaten stall teams. It can also act as a pseudo hazing move if you're desperate. Are there any other users of Perish Song or Perish Song equivalents in the metagame for stall?

Personally, I hate stall. I've never been good at using it and hate fighting it. The amount of time and effort you need to put into these teams to either use them or break them just sucks. There are however, Pokemon that are rather good at it;

Mew
Crobat
Tornadus-Therian
Crawdaunt
Defog Users

Mew and Crobat are stallbreakers. Their fast taunts, ability to spread crippling status, and heal off any residual damage allow them to give unprepared stall teams hell. Sableye was really good at this last generation, but currently resides in OU. Tornadus-Therian and Crawdaunt are both common Knock-Off users, the former also carries Taunt, and through the use of Knock Off, really slow down stall teams. Without the gradual leftovers recovery, they quickly find themselves up Shit's Creek without a paddle. Crawdaunt also has the distinct ability of being really strong, and is most likely capable of breaking through a lot of members commonly found on stall teams. I mention defog users here as a good way to shut down stall teams, but they're more of a deterrent; without the constant hazards damage, most stall teams can fail to deliver fatal amounts of damage, and will find themselves getting beat down before they break their opposition.

I want to point out that full-stall teams don't work anymore, and that they do require offensive elements to be successful.
Knock off is rather detrimental towards stall as a whole since Leftovers can usually restore upwards of 50% (sometimes well upwards of 50%) of a Pokemon's health in a stall team. I did use Chesnaught on a stall team once so I was less Crawdaunt weak but minor tweaks (adding Aerial Ace) poses significant problems for stall. Defog may not be as large as a problem as you initially might think because stall can rely heavily on Toxic and PP stalling as well to deal damage which Defog doesn't necessarily affect. Mega Blastoise seems to be a popular replacement for Defog users on some teams and he is easily worn down by effective stall teams because lack of recovery and no immunity towards passive damage.

Could you elaborate on your rather sweeping last sentence that full stall teams "don't work anymore, and that they do require offensive elements to be succesful"

I really like mega blastoise on stall these days. Lets you be alot more agressive with your hazards while still allowing you to use Sr weak pokemon. Otherwise in alot of cases (say you need healthy Zapdos) their Sr actually forces you to waste time defogging. Makes it so hard to keep up pressure.
Good to know. Let's hear some examples of you needing to have a healthy Zapdos though because as far as I know stall teams only need their core healthy and the rest of the Pokemon on their team just add utility to beat certain niche Pokemon and help keep the team healhy and add passive damage. Zapdos isn't really often in the core I thought.

On stall, Mega Aggron + Florges is excellent. With the new omnipresence of Defog, you can have mons that don't suck to clear hazards, like Zapdos, Latias, and Mew, ALL of which have reliable recovery. The only Spiker I really use is Roserade, b/c it reliably sets up Spikes and checks a bunch of threats. Chesnaught is pretty meh, imho. Crawdaunt, which surprisingly isn't mentioned yet, is a GIGANTIC threat to stall teams, especially if it decides to run SD for filler. Usually, you want Mega Aggron and another mon that can take hits from +2 crab, and you're still not safe just because of its sheer power. Mew is another mon that takes a huge dump on stall, but stallbreaker Mew is rare and Defog variants are more common. Overall, stall has huge potential in UU and is a playstyle I have used to successful effect (just make sure to wear down OPPOSING defog users).
Also, you almost always need a win condition for stall or else you're screwed vs opposing stall.
P.S a lot of mons mentioned here are covered in most stall teams, e.g Mega Aggron and/or Zapdos for Torn-T, P2/Snorlax/Chansey for Chandy, special attackers, and other excellent Pokemon that can cover stall mons. Also Crobat isn't nearly as threatening as Mew imho.
Crawdaunt was mentioned when you made the post but yes I think you're quite correct in your analysis of it. Florges seems to be overtaking Chansey's role in some ways as a bulky special wall that can pass wish and heal status. Would you agree with this, do you think this has any implications for the metagame? When you say successful effect do you mean you have a high ladder ranking or some successful tour with it or you manage to beat strong players? I'm curious because I have seen very few stall teams in all places of the ladder.

I've found Chesnaught to be actually really effective on a wide variety of teams, including stall. It has a solid defensive typing allowing it to come in on things like Crawdaunt, and it can support the team in a variety of ways, including Leech Seed and Spikes.
I agree but be careful of Aerial Ace.
A lot of you might know me on Showdown as Satanjr so you already know I HATE STALL, it's the most ridiculous thing ever and it's lame as hell, how the fuck people can honestly sit there and want to play stall as if the world isnt revolving around everyone else and not just their selfish ass's kills me mentally.

I've been using a very offensive Core of the two following pokemon to take on stall

Magnezone @ Leftovers
Ability: Analytic
EVs: 252 SAtk / 248 HP / 8 SDef
Modest Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Substitute

Mienshao (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Drain Punch
- Stone Edge

The raw offense of Mienshao and the typing of zone help me stop stall stone cold, Most of te time I'm either U-turning into zone to take a fariy's toxic, Or I'm drain punching Umbreon to hell U-turn lets me get away from mew and his WoW so i can go to zone and just smack him up with some tbolts till its dead, Zone beats ANY fairy in UU, and helps vs walls due to analytic which makes him hit like a truck, knock off on Mienshao for getting rid of those items, the main idea is to break the stall down before it sets up cos if it gets up and running its pretty much gg for you
I cannot believe using Mienshao without HJK is terribly useful nor do I believe non Specs Analytic Magnezone has much wallbreaking power considering the main wall it has to beat for stall is Chansey. Even just adding SD to Mienshao (which might lower its overall utility) will certainly raise it's stall breaking power but without any way to boost its attack or use high powered moves Mienshao does not seem able to beat physical walls.

stall ez unfair ;______;
lol

I've never run Full stall, but I sometimes like to run a stallish core made from about 3-4 'mons and then one wallbreaker and a sweeper.

As for Stall itself, it benefitted hugely from the bans of Megacham, Diggersby and the like. However they often lose to teams that carry Clerics and Defoggers/Rapid Spinners or Voltswitch Teams that put a lot of pressure on it. The new Game Mechanics also didn't really help Stall, with Knock Off being everywhere and the Defog Buff removing hazards. Also I think that Stall didn't benefit from this Generation as much.

So yeah, I think Stall isn't nearly as threatening as it used to be, however it is still annoying and an experienced user (which has time on his hands) can pull wins out of it for sure.

Also


This isn't Little Cup bro. Unless you run Lvl. 1 Magnemite, that won't work
You touched on a point nobody mentioned which is how stall benfitted from the bans. I tend to agree with you that it benefited massively from the bans but the best ban in my opinion was the Mega Gardevoir ban which usually swept through the stall bar one or two Pokemon easily. Stall was never particularly threatening last generation except hail stall which obviously cannot be used this generation because Walrein cannot stall. I think the mechanics this generation did favor stall actually because many moves having lower base power and Defog is still a two edged sword really.
 
hilarious said:
Crawdaunt was mentioned when you made the post but yes I think you're quite correct in your analysis of it. Florges seems to be overtaking Chansey's role in some ways as a bulky special wall that can pass wish and heal status. Would you agree with this, do you think this has any implications for the metagame? When you say successful effect do you mean you have a high ladder ranking or some successful tour with it or you manage to beat strong players? I'm curious because I have seen very few stall teams in all places of the ladder.
I haven't done anything significant with it, but when I run stall on the ladder, I usually do pretty well. Idk, I guess I'll try topping the ladder soon. Florges is indeed an excellent wall but Chansey isn't really eclipsed by it because of gigantic Wishes and the ability to wall like everything (Nidos ;-;). Also on the ladder, there is this mentality (which I don't like and think is really silly) that stall is "cheap" and "no one wants to play that long lol", stuff like that. Usually if you predict well and play around huge threats (no single stall team can cover everything, sadly), you have a really solid chance of winning.
I honestly don't think Mega Blastoise is a great option on stall when you have potential win conditions in CM Slowbro and Crocune, the former of which you need a REALLY good reason not to run b/c it's just awesome.
 
You touched on a point nobody mentioned which is how stall benfitted from the bans. I tend to agree with you that it benefited massively from the bans but the best ban in my opinion was the Mega Gardevoir ban which usually swept through the stall bar one or two Pokemon easily. Stall was never particularly threatening last generation except hail stall which obviously cannot be used this generation because Walrein cannot stall. I think the mechanics this generation did favor stall actually because many moves having lower base power and Defog is still a two edged sword really.
Ehh, I dont think I agree with the fact that stall benefitted from the Defog buff. i mean, Stall often tends to carry more than one hazards (most of the time SR+one of the spikes), while balanced teams usually carry just SR. and 3 layers of spikes is arguably harder to set up then SR. Or two layers of Toxic Spikes. And trading one hazard in for 3 turns of hazards for the opposing team is something that I'm willing to do. Also there are loads of Defoggers in comparison to Rapid Spinners
Also Stall was relevant last Gen, at least in the lower tiers (SCREW YOU SNOVER) but eh, I dont know 'bout UU really.

It did benefit from the Base Power changes however.
 
There are a few things I think are mandatory on stall in UU. As long as you have them it feels pretty solid to me but most stall teams I face aren't running everything they need or don't preserve team members effectively enough. One of the biggest threats to stall in UU has always been SD Heracross, and with the Knock Off buff it now has absolutely no defensive counters and only 2 defensive checks, so it's necessary to run something faster than can OHKO it like Crobat or Tonradus-T. These are fairly common, but in my experience it's pretty easy to paralyze them and pressure the opposing team into never getting a heal bell off (I am running mostly-physical HO, which typically doesn't allow Chansey/Florges/Celebi etc free turns at all) and then just crush 3-4 Pokemon with Heracross. This happens almost every time I play against a stall team. Obviosuly SD Heracross is rare but I would essentially just say always run a fast flying type of some sort and make sure it doesn't get crippled, UU has too many potent stallbreakers to beat everything defensively so you will always need that edge of offense to aggressively eliminate the Pokemon that will beat you if left unchecked.
 
Actually, Florges does a decent job against Heracross. I haven't faced too many difficulties with it. Crobat is a stallbreaker that can be beaten by Zapdos easily. Offensive edge isn't really a requirement on stall and if you have offensive mons like those it probably isn't stall.
 

Blast

the bear basics
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I want to touch a little more on the importance of win conditions on stall teams since it seems a little overlooked. They're necessary for dealing with stuff with reliable recovery that can't be worn down by residual damage, as well as any last-minute Substitute users on the field when you can't phaze them out anymore. Without them stall doesn't really have ways of dealing with these types of scenarios, which will often either result in a stalemate or an outright loss on the stall team user's part. Perish Song Celebi was brought up before as a great example of a wincon though bulky setup sweepers are excellent alternatives as well, providing the power necessary to break down defensive cores with the added benefit of potentially pulling off a sweep of your own. They're also considerably more effective than Perish Song early- to mid-game since Perish Song can be escaped by switching.

This is probably my favorite wincon to use right now:

Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 188 HP / 252 SDef / 68 Spd
Careful Nature
- Coil
- Dragon Tail
- Earthquake
- Substitute

SubCoil Zygarde is a fantastic wincon because of its excellent matchup against opposing wincons and defensive Pokémon in general. Its fast Dragon Tail gives it the edge over opposing setup sweepers and phazers, giving it a pseudo-"immunity" to phazing and making it much less vulnerable to being overwhelmed by boosted attacks. Dragon Tail also gives it some added utility as a fast phazer even when it can't directly sweep. Especially when paired with Wish and Heal Bell support that are always on stall teams, Zygarde is definitely a scary force to face, and great at patching up holes that stall teams would normally have. Oh yeah and the EVs hit 404 HP, outspeed Honchkrow + creep defensive base 100s, and maximize special bulk.

Other potential wincons include CM Slowbro, Crocune, Reuniclus, potentially Mew and Jirachi, etc. Haven't really used most of them but they probably work fine, though Zygarde is easily one of the best.
 
Stall is amazing in the current meta which is a shame because I hate fighting it. Keldeo can handle the Aggron/Chansey core pretty well in my experience. I use a Sub/CM set with Secret Sword and Surf which makes it pretty much unwallable by many teams. Sub helps a lot against status, which is of course a staple of stall teams, as well as revenge killing, because some stall teams like to run one offensive mon.
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 368-434 (52.2 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Keldeo Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Aggron: 177-208 (51.4 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Of course, Florges is still an issue. However, if you force a switch into Florges, as Keldeo so often does, and use the opportunity to sub up, you can get 2 CMs off before taking a Moonblast. Factoring in the Sub cost and 2 turns of lefties recovery, you'll be at 88% as you take the Moonblast.
0 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. +2 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 122-146 (37.7 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Florges: 188-222 (52.2 - 61.6%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (guaranteed if Modest or if Florges takes hazard damage)

If your opponent tries to Wish, Protect or Toxic they risk Keldeo setting up further.

I realize that the circumstances I have mentioned above are very specific and that Keldeo is usually walled hard by Florges. I have personally beaten a Florges in this way so I thought I'd mention it. Even under these circumstances if Florges gets a special attack drop or crit you're screwed but the fact that Keldeo can take on what is probably its number one counter under any circumstances is pretty cool.
 

pokemonisfun

Formerly pokeisfun
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I responded everyone who posted after my last post. I love these discussions they make me feel so intellectual. Feel free to respond of course or attack my points if you disagree.
I haven't done anything significant with it, but when I run stall on the ladder, I usually do pretty well. Idk, I guess I'll try topping the ladder soon. Florges is indeed an excellent wall but Chansey isn't really eclipsed by it because of gigantic Wishes and the ability to wall like everything (Nidos ;-;). Also on the ladder, there is this mentality (which I don't like and think is really silly) that stall is "cheap" and "no one wants to play that long lol", stuff like that. Usually if you predict well and play around huge threats (no single stall team can cover everything, sadly), you have a really solid chance of winning.
I honestly don't think Mega Blastoise is a great option on stall when you have potential win conditions in CM Slowbro and Crocune, the former of which you need a REALLY good reason not to run b/c it's just awesome.
Frankly Chansey cannot reliably wall Nidoking anymore in my opinion because they tend to be going more and more physical. Nidoking did get an attack boost in the generation shift and Poison jab does way way more to Florges than Slime Wave so yeah I'd say at least a third or so of Nidoking is running Poison Jab and/or Superpower which Chansey doesn't particularly enjoy switching in on. The reason you use Megatoise on stall is because that way you can preserve your own entry hazards and be able to switch more freely and its very hard to use another spinner in UU. I did use Hitmontop but Hitmontop has problems getting past Ghosts even with Foresight and being able to switch into things in general. In any case the latest usage stats are indicating Chansey, even if it the best special wall, is certainly no longer the most popular one: Floreges is now, unequivocally.

Ehh, I dont think I agree with the fact that stall benefitted from the Defog buff. i mean, Stall often tends to carry more than one hazards (most of the time SR+one of the spikes), while balanced teams usually carry just SR. and 3 layers of spikes is arguably harder to set up then SR. Or two layers of Toxic Spikes. And trading one hazard in for 3 turns of hazards for the opposing team is something that I'm willing to do. Also there are loads of Defoggers in comparison to Rapid Spinners
Also Stall was relevant last Gen, at least in the lower tiers (SCREW YOU SNOVER) but eh, I dont know 'bout UU really.

It did benefit from the Base Power changes however.

To be clear I never said stall benefited from the Defog buff I merely said it may not be as a large as problem as you might initially think because it is a double edged sword. It is extremely hard to wear down stall teams by brute force, hazards are very helpful so if you use Defog you are extending both your own team's longevity and your opponent's stall team. Whether this means stall can still function easily or whether this means stall's defeat is merely prolonged is the topic to discuss when examining these circumstances.

There are a few things I think are mandatory on stall in UU. As long as you have them it feels pretty solid to me but most stall teams I face aren't running everything they need or don't preserve team members effectively enough. One of the biggest threats to stall in UU has always been SD Heracross, and with the Knock Off buff it now has absolutely no defensive counters and only 2 defensive checks, so it's necessary to run something faster than can OHKO it like Crobat or Tonradus-T. These are fairly common, but in my experience it's pretty easy to paralyze them and pressure the opposing team into never getting a heal bell off (I am running mostly-physical HO, which typically doesn't allow Chansey/Florges/Celebi etc free turns at all) and then just crush 3-4 Pokemon with Heracross. This happens almost every time I play against a stall team. Obviosuly SD Heracross is rare but I would essentially just say always run a fast flying type of some sort and make sure it doesn't get crippled, UU has too many potent stallbreakers to beat everything defensively so you will always need that edge of offense to aggressively eliminate the Pokemon that will beat you if left unchecked.
Hi there I don't think I have responded to any of your posts in a few months. Good to see you still have intelligent things to say.

In all of my stall teams I have never been an extensive user of a "safety" Pokemon, that is to say a really fast and strong Pokemon that can emergency check Pokemon that would otherwise be extremely hard to check. When I was playing generation 5 BW however I did have a stall team that used Choice Band Weavile which could, among other things, check Togekiss and trap certain nasty Psychic Pokemon that tended to give stall an extremely hard time. But I quickly retired that sort of team from most my games because tactically it rarely worked apart from the Pursuit traps since the opponent always had the option to switch out and Weavile was very hardpressed to switch into Togekiss actually so I often had to wait for one of my own Pokemon to die to bring in Weavile. If you are familiar with stall you will know this was basically just slowly slitting my own throat as opposed to making a nice clean cut.

I'm excited you are mentioning Tornadus-T because I think it seems much more tactically sound to use him as a Weavlie-esque Pokemon this generation because access to Regenerator and U-turn means easier predictions and extremely long longevity. Maybe I will build a stall team with him this generation.

Actually, Florges does a decent job against Heracross. I haven't faced too many difficulties with it. Crobat is a stallbreaker that can be beaten by Zapdos easily. Offensive edge isn't really a requirement on stall and if you have offensive mons like those it probably isn't stall.
That is probably true but if Heracross is in on say your Roserade he can get a free SD as you run away to Florges and then 2hko with Megahorn as you fail to OHKO with Moonblast. You can use Protect in any case but then again Heracross could just boost some more. Even so a smart Heracross user will recognize a stall team only has one response to SD Heracross, FLorges (if indeed that is the case) and then just use Knock Off to remove Leftovers and wait for Florges to be at fairly low health before trying to sweep. Stall is too passive to ensure Heracross will never be able to set up and therein lies the great problem stall has with certain threats, whether or not they be common or even viable in more standard UU games.

Again the Tornadus idea Fast Flygon mentioned could potentially alleviate if not totally solve this problem.

I want to touch a little more on the importance of win conditions on stall teams since it seems a little overlooked. They're necessary for dealing with stuff with reliable recovery that can't be worn down by residual damage, as well as any last-minute Substitute users on the field when you can't phaze them out anymore. Without them stall doesn't really have ways of dealing with these types of scenarios, which will often either result in a stalemate or an outright loss on the stall team user's part. Perish Song Celebi was brought up before as a great example of a wincon though bulky setup sweepers are excellent alternatives as well, providing the power necessary to break down defensive cores with the added benefit of potentially pulling off a sweep of your own. They're also considerably more effective than Perish Song early- to mid-game since Perish Song can be escaped by switching.

This is probably my favorite wincon to use right now:

Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 188 HP / 252 SDef / 68 Spd
Careful Nature
- Coil
- Dragon Tail
- Earthquake
- Substitute

SubCoil Zygarde is a fantastic wincon because of its excellent matchup against opposing wincons and defensive Pokémon in general. Its fast Dragon Tail gives it the edge over opposing setup sweepers and phazers, giving it a pseudo-"immunity" to phazing and making it much less vulnerable to being overwhelmed by boosted attacks. Dragon Tail also gives it some added utility as a fast phazer even when it can't directly sweep. Especially when paired with Wish and Heal Bell support that are always on stall teams, Zygarde is definitely a scary force to face, and great at patching up holes that stall teams would normally have. Oh yeah and the EVs hit 404 HP, outspeed Honchkrow + creep defensive base 100s, and maximize special bulk.

Other potential wincons include CM Slowbro, Crocune, Reuniclus, potentially Mew and Jirachi, etc. Haven't really used most of them but they probably work fine, though Zygarde is easily one of the best.
I am a pretty huge fan of Zygarde to the point I have run him on the majority of my teams now, generally a variant of the SubCoil set. I know this set is extremely effective in breaking down stall teams (I use Extremespeed over Dragon Tail and it still wrecks stall so I can only imagine Dragon Tail does significantly better).

That said I believe you are both misinterpreting what win conditions mean and the significance of them in playing against stall teams. There is no strict official dictionary of Pokemon terms, I know if you ask three different strong players to define what a defensive pivot is you are most likely going to get three different but similar answers. But to me a win condition should never be relied on in general terms because almost each and every team you play is going to be unique so you should be able to identify and if needed create win conditions yourself out of the six Pokemon you have to work with. Yes SubCoil Zygarde can act as a win condition in some circumstances but unless you have some tactical trick you are rarely going to be able to execute your condition against a stall team with, for random example, an Ice Beam Slowbro. What I mean is there is no Pokemon that ever serves as a win condition but it is always your team that has winning strategies.

I also said you misinterpreted the significance of win conditions - they are useful to be sure but your post, in my opinion, overemphasizes the need for them. It is perfectly possible to win against a stall team even if among your opponent's six team they have counters for all of your offensive Pokemon. Other factors like mainlining offensive pressure, tactically eliminating key defenders (like using Iron Head on a Dragon to kill Florges) can be nearly as or just as important. However just as I type this I remember I was using a very good (in my opinion) team with five dragons that couldn't break through a certain Slowbro and Chansey core. I made multiple successful double switches, U-turned with Hydregion on the right times and kept hazards off my field for about 20 or 25 turns if I remember correctly (which is quite a while for an offensive team) and maintained pressure for basically the entire game. Then I lost because even towards the end when I still had pressure it was all sort of illusory and I could never convert it into concrete significant kills. A win condition would have definitely helped me (and for the record I did use SubCoil Zygarde but they had an Ice Beam Slowbro that I was not able to touch). So yes I do agree win conditions are important and offensive pressure by itself cannot necessarily win games but they must always play a factor.

FYI instead of getting a win condition for that specific stall team I made a tactical/strategical (the lines are somewhat blurred in Pokemon in my opinion) change for the team and started to use SubRoost Kyurem over a RD Kingdra. I was able to beat the team on my second try.

Stall is amazing in the current meta which is a shame because I hate fighting it. Keldeo can handle the Aggron/Chansey core pretty well in my experience. I use a Sub/CM set with Secret Sword and Surf which makes it pretty much unwallable by many teams. Sub helps a lot against status, which is of course a staple of stall teams, as well as revenge killing, because some stall teams like to run one offensive mon.
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 368-434 (52.2 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Keldeo Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Aggron: 177-208 (51.4 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Of course, Florges is still an issue. However, if you force a switch into Florges, as Keldeo so often does, and use the opportunity to sub up, you can get 2 CMs off before taking a Moonblast. Factoring in the Sub cost and 2 turns of lefties recovery, you'll be at 88% as you take the Moonblast.
0 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. +2 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 122-146 (37.7 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Florges: 188-222 (52.2 - 61.6%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (guaranteed if Modest or if Florges takes hazard damage)

If your opponent tries to Wish, Protect or Toxic they risk Keldeo setting up further.

I realize that the circumstances I have mentioned above are very specific and that Keldeo is usually walled hard by Florges. I have personally beaten a Florges in this way so I thought I'd mention it. Even under these circumstances if Florges gets a special attack drop or crit you're screwed but the fact that Keldeo can take on what is probably its number one counter under any circumstances is pretty cool.
I absolutely love posts like these New Light and would love to see more of them in the UU subforums, or frankly anywhere. This is really taking Pokemon for the game it is and meticulously analyzing matchups with calculations and plausible hypotheticals. That said I actually don't have much to add except I doubt Modest Keldeo is worth it and most Mega Aggron will be using some or actually completely maxed special defense, especially on stall teams. I still believe Keldeo would win the match up and Aggron of course cannot come close to countering Keldeo.
 
again, i come here to advocate the use of togetic by stall teams. it is the supreme cockblock to zygarde (a +6 extremespeed from the coil set fails to 2HKO it), it has defog, can defeat non stone edge heracross (sd heracross usually uses close combat + megahorn + knock off), can use defog, heal bell, thunder wave and has above average defenses in 314hp/452def/369spdef when using 252 hp/252+ def which i think is the best spread.
 
I'm surprised no one has talked about the stallbreaking behemoth that is CM Reuniclus (perhaps due to it being OU last Gen?) But there is very little any stall team can do to a CM Reuniclus. With the only common phazer that stall teams have being d-tail Mega-Aggron, which is still almost a guaranteed 2hko'd while unboosted (4 SpA Life Orb Reuniclus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 170-201 (49.4 - 58.4%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO) Reuniclus can really make a stall teams day hell. I really am surprised that I havn't seen this monster around much, even with knock off on literally every poke that can carry it, it is still a massive threat to a much more slow paced meta. Maybe I'm just crazy.
 

Blast

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I am a pretty huge fan of Zygarde to the point I have run him on the majority of my teams now, generally a variant of the SubCoil set. I know this set is extremely effective in breaking down stall teams (I use Extremespeed over Dragon Tail and it still wrecks stall so I can only imagine Dragon Tail does significantly better).

That said I believe you are both misinterpreting what win conditions mean and the significance of them in playing against stall teams. There is no strict official dictionary of Pokemon terms, I know if you ask three different strong players to define what a defensive pivot is you are most likely going to get three different but similar answers. But to me a win condition should never be relied on in general terms because almost each and every team you play is going to be unique so you should be able to identify and if needed create win conditions yourself out of the six Pokemon you have to work with. Yes SubCoil Zygarde can act as a win condition in some circumstances but unless you have some tactical trick you are rarely going to be able to execute your condition against a stall team with, for random example, an Ice Beam Slowbro. What I mean is there is no Pokemon that ever serves as a win condition but it is always your team that has winning strategies.

I also said you misinterpreted the significance of win conditions - they are useful to be sure but your post, in my opinion, overemphasizes the need for them. It is perfectly possible to win against a stall team even if among your opponent's six team they have counters for all of your offensive Pokemon. Other factors like mainlining offensive pressure, tactically eliminating key defenders (like using Iron Head on a Dragon to kill Florges) can be nearly as or just as important. However just as I type this I remember I was using a very good (in my opinion) team with five dragons that couldn't break through a certain Slowbro and Chansey core. I made multiple successful double switches, U-turned with Hydregion on the right times and kept hazards off my field for about 20 or 25 turns if I remember correctly (which is quite a while for an offensive team) and maintained pressure for basically the entire game. Then I lost because even towards the end when I still had pressure it was all sort of illusory and I could never convert it into concrete significant kills. A win condition would have definitely helped me (and for the record I did use SubCoil Zygarde but they had an Ice Beam Slowbro that I was not able to touch). So yes I do agree win conditions are important and offensive pressure by itself cannot necessarily win games but they must always play a factor.

FYI instead of getting a win condition for that specific stall team I made a tactical/strategical (the lines are somewhat blurred in Pokemon in my opinion) change for the team and started to use SubRoost Kyurem over a RD Kingdra. I was able to beat the team on my second try.
That's not a win condition. A win condition is anything that can prevent a stalemate between bulky Pokemon. Especially for stall teams, they will often lack the direct firepower to break through opposing walls, which is where boosting moves or Perish Song or whatever come into play--they give you the means to actually defeat them rather than just hope to PP stall (proof here that they are a defined term). Let's use some random example, say a SpD Celebi with Giga Drain / Psychic / Recover / U-turn vs. LO 3 Attacks + Roost Latias. Neither Pokemon can do anything to significantly harm the other, and both can simply recover off any damage they've accumulated, resulting in a stalemate. However, if Celebi decides to forgo one of its moves for Perish Song, or if maybe Latias decides to slap Calm Mind on its moveset somewhere, the whole scenario changes as they are now capable of breaking the stalemate, which is what the basic purpose of wincons are. What you basically described is team matchup and how to play around / take advantage of it, and while of course that's important it's not what I was talking about. Wincons are mandatory on stall teams to give you a fighting chance against opposing stall. Obviously no wincon is perfect, but that doesn't change the fact that you need one to build a successful stall team.

Also I do agree that wincons become less important the more offensive your team gets, but again that's aside the point. I was talking about the importance of wincons ON stall, not against it.
 
Of course you're not going to have Florges as the only answer! You have secondary answers on all teams to it. Like something like Mega Aggron; Heracross forces it out, but if you know it's an SD variant you can DTail it incase it tries to SD. That's a pretty poor play, but you can still DTail/Heavy Slam on the switch. There are many examples, but just chipping down suffices. This is not to mention that often Heracross just goes for the CC, dropping its defenses.
Also, I made a stall team but I'm not going to be playing the meta too much now onwards so here it is:
Aggron @ Aggronite
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SDef
Careful Nature
- Heavy Slam
- Dragon Tail
- Toxic
- Stealth Rock

Florges (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Flower Veil
EVs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 216 SDef
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Protect
- Aromatherapy
- Moonblast

Zapdos @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 224 Def / 32 Spd
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Defog
- Toxic
- Thunderbolt

Roserade @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 SDef
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Giga Drain
- Sleep Powder
- Spikes
- Sludge Bomb

Slowbro @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 236 HP / 252 Def / 16 SAtk
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Slack Off
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Calm Mind

Porygon2 @ Eviolite
Ability: Trace
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Thunderbolt
- Toxic
- Ice Beam

This has worked p well for me, with a Mega Aggron + Florges core. I'll elaborate on this better afterwards, and I can use variations to this team, so I'll edit the whole thing in later.
Also you can use any bulky Normal (Snorlax, Chansey) in place of p2 if you like.
 

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