I responded everyone who posted after my last post. I love these discussions they make me feel so intellectual. Feel free to respond of course or attack my points if you disagree.
I haven't done anything significant with it, but when I run stall on the ladder, I usually do pretty well. Idk, I guess I'll try topping the ladder soon. Florges is indeed an excellent wall but Chansey isn't really eclipsed by it because of gigantic Wishes and the ability to wall like everything (Nidos ;-;). Also on the ladder, there is this mentality (which I don't like and think is really silly) that stall is "cheap" and "no one wants to play that long lol", stuff like that. Usually if you predict well and play around huge threats (no single stall team can cover everything, sadly), you have a really solid chance of winning.
I honestly don't think Mega Blastoise is a great option on stall when you have potential win conditions in CM Slowbro and Crocune, the former of which you need a REALLY good reason not to run b/c it's just awesome.
Frankly Chansey cannot reliably wall Nidoking anymore in my opinion because they tend to be going more and more physical. Nidoking did get an attack boost in the generation shift and Poison jab does way way more to Florges than Slime Wave so yeah I'd say at least a third or so of Nidoking is running Poison Jab and/or Superpower which Chansey doesn't particularly enjoy switching in on. The reason you use Megatoise on stall is because that way you can preserve your own entry hazards and be able to switch more freely and its very hard to use another spinner in UU. I did use Hitmontop but Hitmontop has problems getting past Ghosts even with Foresight and being able to switch into things in general. In any case the latest usage stats are indicating Chansey, even if it the best special wall, is certainly no longer the most popular one: Floreges is now, unequivocally.
Ehh, I dont think I agree with the fact that stall benefitted from the Defog buff. i mean, Stall often tends to carry more than one hazards (most of the time SR+one of the spikes), while balanced teams usually carry just SR. and 3 layers of spikes is arguably harder to set up then SR. Or two layers of Toxic Spikes. And trading one hazard in for 3 turns of hazards for the opposing team is something that I'm willing to do. Also there are loads of Defoggers in comparison to Rapid Spinners
Also Stall was relevant last Gen, at least in the lower tiers (SCREW YOU SNOVER) but eh, I dont know 'bout UU really.
It did benefit from the Base Power changes however.
To be clear I never said stall benefited from the Defog buff I merely said it may not be as a large as problem as you might initially think because it is a double edged sword. It is extremely hard to wear down stall teams by brute force, hazards are very helpful so if you use Defog you are extending both your own team's longevity and your opponent's stall team. Whether this means stall can still function easily or whether this means stall's defeat is merely prolonged is the topic to discuss when examining these circumstances.
There are a few things I think are mandatory on stall in UU. As long as you have them it feels pretty solid to me but most stall teams I face aren't running everything they need or don't preserve team members effectively enough. One of the biggest threats to stall in UU has always been SD Heracross, and with the Knock Off buff it now has absolutely no defensive counters and only 2 defensive checks, so it's necessary to run something faster than can OHKO it like Crobat or Tonradus-T. These are fairly common, but in my experience it's pretty easy to paralyze them and pressure the opposing team into never getting a heal bell off (I am running mostly-physical HO, which typically doesn't allow Chansey/Florges/Celebi etc free turns at all) and then just crush 3-4 Pokemon with Heracross. This happens almost every time I play against a stall team. Obviosuly SD Heracross is rare but I would essentially just say always run a fast flying type of some sort and make sure it doesn't get crippled, UU has too many potent stallbreakers to beat everything defensively so you will always need that edge of offense to aggressively eliminate the Pokemon that will beat you if left unchecked.
Hi there I don't think I have responded to any of your posts in a few months. Good to see you still have intelligent things to say.
In all of my stall teams I have never been an extensive user of a "safety" Pokemon, that is to say a really fast and strong Pokemon that can emergency check Pokemon that would otherwise be extremely hard to check. When I was playing generation 5 BW however I did have a stall team that used Choice Band Weavile which could, among other things, check Togekiss and trap certain nasty Psychic Pokemon that tended to give stall an extremely hard time. But I quickly retired that sort of team from most my games because tactically it rarely worked apart from the Pursuit traps since the opponent always had the option to switch out and Weavile was very hardpressed to switch into Togekiss actually so I often had to wait for one of my own Pokemon to die to bring in Weavile. If you are familiar with stall you will know this was basically just slowly slitting my own throat as opposed to making a nice clean cut.
I'm excited you are mentioning Tornadus-T because I think it seems much more tactically sound to use him as a Weavlie-esque Pokemon this generation because access to Regenerator and U-turn means easier predictions and extremely long longevity. Maybe I will build a stall team with him this generation.
Actually, Florges does a decent job against Heracross. I haven't faced too many difficulties with it. Crobat is a stallbreaker that can be beaten by Zapdos easily. Offensive edge isn't really a requirement on stall and if you have offensive mons like those it probably isn't stall.
That is probably true but if Heracross is in on say your Roserade he can get a free SD as you run away to Florges and then 2hko with Megahorn as you fail to OHKO with Moonblast. You can use Protect in any case but then again Heracross could just boost some more. Even so a smart Heracross user will recognize a stall team only has one response to SD Heracross, FLorges (if indeed that is the case) and then just use Knock Off to remove Leftovers and wait for Florges to be at fairly low health before trying to sweep. Stall is too passive to ensure Heracross will never be able to set up and therein lies the great problem stall has with certain threats, whether or not they be common or even viable in more standard UU games.
Again the Tornadus idea Fast Flygon mentioned could potentially alleviate if not totally solve this problem.
I want to touch a little more on the importance of win conditions on stall teams since it seems a little overlooked. They're necessary for dealing with stuff with reliable recovery that can't be worn down by residual damage, as well as any last-minute Substitute users on the field when you can't phaze them out anymore. Without them stall doesn't really have ways of dealing with these types of scenarios, which will often either result in a stalemate or an outright loss on the stall team user's part. Perish Song Celebi was brought up before as a great example of a wincon though bulky setup sweepers are excellent alternatives as well, providing the power necessary to break down defensive cores with the added benefit of potentially pulling off a sweep of your own. They're also considerably more effective than Perish Song early- to mid-game since Perish Song can be escaped by switching.
This is probably my favorite wincon to use right now:
Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 188 HP / 252 SDef / 68 Spd
Careful Nature
- Coil
- Dragon Tail
- Earthquake
- Substitute
SubCoil Zygarde is a fantastic wincon because of its excellent matchup against opposing wincons and defensive Pokémon in general. Its fast Dragon Tail gives it the edge over opposing setup sweepers and phazers, giving it a pseudo-"immunity" to phazing and making it much less vulnerable to being overwhelmed by boosted attacks. Dragon Tail also gives it some added utility as a fast phazer even when it can't directly sweep. Especially when paired with Wish and Heal Bell support that are always on stall teams, Zygarde is definitely a scary force to face, and great at patching up holes that stall teams would normally have. Oh yeah and the EVs hit 404 HP, outspeed Honchkrow + creep defensive base 100s, and maximize special bulk.
Other potential wincons include CM Slowbro, Crocune, Reuniclus, potentially Mew and Jirachi, etc. Haven't really used most of them but they probably work fine, though Zygarde is easily one of the best.
I am a pretty huge fan of Zygarde to the point I have run him on the majority of my teams now, generally a variant of the SubCoil set. I know this set is extremely effective in breaking down stall teams (I use Extremespeed over Dragon Tail and it still wrecks stall so I can only imagine Dragon Tail does significantly better).
That said I believe you are both misinterpreting what win conditions mean and the significance of them in playing against stall teams. There is no strict official dictionary of Pokemon terms, I know if you ask three different strong players to define what a defensive pivot is you are most likely going to get three different but similar answers. But to me a win condition should never be relied on in general terms because almost each and every team you play is going to be unique so you should be able to identify and if needed create win conditions yourself out of the six Pokemon you have to work with. Yes SubCoil Zygarde can act as a win condition in some circumstances but unless you have some tactical trick you are rarely going to be able to execute your condition against a stall team with, for random example, an Ice Beam Slowbro. What I mean is there is no Pokemon that ever serves as a win condition but it is always your team that has winning strategies.
I also said you misinterpreted the significance of win conditions - they are useful to be sure but your post, in my opinion, overemphasizes the need for them. It is perfectly possible to win against a stall team even if among your opponent's six team they have counters for all of your offensive Pokemon. Other factors like mainlining offensive pressure, tactically eliminating key defenders (like using Iron Head on a Dragon to kill Florges) can be nearly as or just as important. However just as I type this I remember I was using a very good (in my opinion) team with five dragons that couldn't break through a certain Slowbro and Chansey core. I made multiple successful double switches, U-turned with Hydregion on the right times and kept hazards off my field for about 20 or 25 turns if I remember correctly (which is quite a while for an offensive team) and maintained pressure for basically the entire game. Then I lost because even towards the end when I still had pressure it was all sort of illusory and I could never convert it into concrete significant kills. A win condition would have definitely helped me (and for the record I did use SubCoil Zygarde but they had an Ice Beam Slowbro that I was not able to touch). So yes I do agree win conditions are important and offensive pressure by itself cannot necessarily win games but they must always play a factor.
FYI instead of getting a win condition for that specific stall team I made a tactical/strategical (the lines are somewhat blurred in Pokemon in my opinion) change for the team and started to use SubRoost Kyurem over a RD Kingdra. I was able to beat the team on my second try.
Stall is amazing in the current meta which is a shame because I hate fighting it. Keldeo can handle the Aggron/Chansey core pretty well in my experience. I use a Sub/CM set with Secret Sword and Surf which makes it pretty much unwallable by many teams. Sub helps a lot against status, which is of course a staple of stall teams, as well as revenge killing, because some stall teams like to run one offensive mon.
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 368-434 (52.2 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Keldeo Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Aggron: 177-208 (51.4 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Of course, Florges is still an issue. However, if you force a switch into Florges, as Keldeo so often does, and use the opportunity to sub up, you can get 2 CMs off before taking a Moonblast. Factoring in the Sub cost and 2 turns of lefties recovery, you'll be at 88% as you take the Moonblast.
0 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. +2 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 122-146 (37.7 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Florges: 188-222 (52.2 - 61.6%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (guaranteed if Modest or if Florges takes hazard damage)
If your opponent tries to Wish, Protect or Toxic they risk Keldeo setting up further.
I realize that the circumstances I have mentioned above are very specific and that Keldeo is usually walled hard by Florges. I have personally beaten a Florges in this way so I thought I'd mention it. Even under these circumstances if Florges gets a special attack drop or crit you're screwed but the fact that Keldeo can take on what is probably its number one counter under any circumstances is pretty cool.
I absolutely love posts like these New Light and would love to see more of them in the UU subforums, or frankly anywhere. This is really taking Pokemon for the game it is and meticulously analyzing matchups with calculations and plausible hypotheticals. That said I actually don't have much to add except I doubt Modest Keldeo is worth it and most Mega Aggron will be using some or actually completely maxed special defense, especially on stall teams. I still believe Keldeo would win the match up and Aggron of course cannot come close to countering Keldeo.