Data State of the Game - 07/10/2011 (Huge Stat Announcement)

[Flamestrike]

If Agility is changed to that new description, then I have no problem with it being used evasively. My understanding was that it didn't involve movement at all, but if it does involve fast movement, then that's fine. As for the Quick Attack/etc, if you're that much against having them being used evasively, then that's fine. I just felt like bringing it up to see what the reasoning was, and the reasoning against it is sound.

 

[Deck Knight]

Most of Ash's Gym battles in Kanto are pretty godawful examples. We don't really need to get into AIM FOR THE HORN, do we?

Nevermind Onix being weak to a sprinkler system. If I make a Ground Gym I guess I'll have to make sure it's not up to the fire code. About the only ones they played straight were Cerulean, Celadon, and Fushia. We all know Raichu isn't going to lack Quick Attack in ASB. In general Ash's strategy was keep away, and he only thought of that after Raichu beat the tar out of Pikachu.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

I don't want any of the priority attacks or Agility to have the ability to dodge attacks. With Protect, Detect, Wide Guard, Quick Guard, Dig, Dive, Substitute, and Fly, move substitutions are already hard enough to use and actually succeed when ordering first rather than being dodged around. I don't think players should be given more utility options at their disposal for dodging.

 

[Gerard]

ok, fair enough

Another thing, could water gun be as powerful as flamethrower, i just say thins since in the Anime, hardly anyone uses Surf and Hydro Pump is like a big leages moves, water gun, while being a basic move is the Anime equivalent to flamethrower, so it seems right to make them the same, just an idea

 

[Leethoof]

thats what scald is for

 

[C$FP]

That reminds me: if I understand the mechanics of Dig and those moves, a fast Pokemon using Dig pretty much automatically can dodge and do damage for low energy? (except for the moves like Earthquake against Dig, etc) It sounds like a dodge on steroids if you don't have Earthquake or Surf or whatever appropriate move. Why not make it like in-game: go underground priority 0, come up next action priority 0. This would disallow the spamming of a fast Pokemon to dodge everything, especially if it is the target of many attacks in a multi-battle. Basically to stop something like this from happening:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3643881&postcount=95
Except in this case, no actual player was majorly screwed over. I think this is far too easy for fast Pokemon to get a guaranteed dodge, whereas the something like Protect costs more energy if even little damage is taken.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

That reminds me: if I understand the mechanics of Dig and those moves, a fast Pokemon using Dig pretty much automatically can dodge and do damage for low energy?

Yes, but when operating at 0 priority, it's not as useful for the vast majority of Pokemon as it would seem. Pokemon that focus on their Speed are already limited in their other stats against stronger, bulkier Pokemon. The fact that fast Pokemon are capable of using things like Dig, Fly, and Dive well simply gives Speed an extra edge in order to make speedy Pokemon more on-par with immensely powerful tanks and damage-dealers. This should absolutely not be changed; fast Pokemon should be able to use those moves to dodge effectively and deal modest damage in return.

 

[C$FP]

Yes, but when operating at 0 priority, it's not as useful for the vast majority of Pokemon as it would seem. Pokemon that focus on their Speed are already limited in their other stats against stronger, bulkier Pokemon. The fact that fast Pokemon are capable of using things like Dig, Fly, and Dive well simply gives Speed an extra edge in order to make speedy Pokemon more on-par with immensely powerful tanks and damage-dealers. This should absolutely not be changed; fast Pokemon should be able to use those moves to dodge effectively and deal modest damage in return.

Ehh. Fair enough. Even though it was your subway challenge I used at an example, but your point is valid.

 

[Kaxtar]

Alright guys, sorry for the recent lag in the approval system. However, I do come with a solution!

After carefully taking this over with a few approvers and with Deck, I have decided to implement a rotation system. At one time, there will be eight approvers. One of those spots will always be myself (one of the perks of being head approver =D). Three will go to the most active approvers of the previous rotation; other factors, such as number of mistake, will also be taken into account. This encourages approvers to be active, as it might guarantee them a spot in the next rotation. Furthermore, it should hopefully speed up approvals through competition, making the process faster and more efficient. Finally, four spots per rotation will go to new approvers who have just been rotated in.

Rotations will occur at the end of each month, at which time I will evaluate the approvers to decide who stays on for the next month. This system is of course open to change at my discretion; if all approvers do exceptionally one month, I may just keep them all, and vice-versa. Rotations will pull the next four people from the queue, and put the rotated-out four on the bottom of the queue. That way, people will become an approver at least one in every three months.

The queue that has been decided (again, subject to change) is...

Zarator
Flamestrike
Danmantincan
Engineer Pikachu
Alchemator
DarkSlay
GoldenKnight
SmashLlyod20
Rediamond
Flora
Destiny Warrior
Athenodoros

People have been chosen based on their Time Zones (Big Factor), activity, IRC availability, Test Scores, and initiative and current status in ASB. Don't ask me to be on the queue; if you have to ask, it won't happen.

If anyone has any question or concerns, ask away. If you have any suggestions to improve this system, please let me know; I want this to be the most fair, productive and swiftest system possible, and your input can go a long way towards achieving that goal.

Never mind guys, we don't need the rotation anymore! Now that DarkSlay and Alch are back full-time, we should be good on Approvers. Zarator will be subbed out, however, as Raids are taking up a bunch of his time. Other than that, everyone will keep their jobs permanently, and the system should be able to fix itself.

 

[Deck Knight]

Other Minor adjustments:

Mountaineer:

So yeah, kinda like Rebound before it, Mountaineer is OP.

Here's the planned change:

Mountaineer

Mountaineer:

Type: Innate

This Pokemon is used to scaling and avoiding rocks. It can avoid damage from Stealth Rock when it switches in, and all Rock-type attacks the round it switches in. In subsequent rounds Mountaineer will not evade Rock-type attacks.

Pokemon with this ability: Sylar, Syclant.

Basically it now mirrors the CAP description exactly, avoiding Stealth Rock damage and any Rock-type attack the turn it switches in.

Freeze:

I think the best way to move forward with Freeze is to treat it like updated sleep. If a Pokemon is frozen it will have 2/3rds chance of a 1 action freeze and a 1/3rd chance of a 2 action freeze. Mechanically, freezes don't occur during Sunny Day and can be removed in-game by selecting Flame Wheel, Flare Blitz, Fusion Flare, Sacred Fire, and Scald. We'll add Blast Burn, Blue Flare, Eruption, Flame Charge, Inferno, Lava Plume, Magma Storm, Overheat, Searing Shot, and V-Create to that list from a flavor perspective. Fire attacks aimed at the frozen Pokemon will also reduce the thaw by one action, however they will damage the target.



Big Stat Announcement

I have considered at great length the issue of the stat cutoff vote at the end of May. The Rank 4 Cutoff was defeated soundly at 4-7 and will not be reconsidered. However the Rank 5 Cutoff was passed by only one vote, and had the panel been different I suspect a different outcome would have arisen. I am thus using my bully pulpit as game designer to reverse the decision of the vote.

I do put a lot of faith in the community to look over the issues and come to the best conclusion. However in such a close vote in a matter of game balance I may have been mistaken in placing my full faith it it. The inital ranks were based on a set of values for nuetralizing all Pokemon, but it is apparent that while stats are an important factor in determining usefulness of a given Pokemon, they are not the only factor. Successive changes have shifted the focus of good Pokemon to a much healthier balance between defensive, tanking Pokemon and speedy Pokemon who now enjoy higher accuracies on stronger attacks to compensate for their lower overall stats.

As such I believe it is time to exercise my discretion and make the cutoff for Rank 5 120. All Pokemon with a value of 120 shall have their stats increased. This will have no effect on participants in the current tournament, however it will be important for future implementations.

Here is the list of affected Pokemon and the relevant stat:

HP: Arceus, Cresselia, Throh, Pyroak

Atk: Hitmonlee, Granbull, Weavile, Donphan, Blaziken, Hariyama, Sharpedo, Crawdaunt, Staraptor, Luxray, Dialga, Palkia, Giratina-O, Arceus, Druddigon, Reshiram, Genesect.

Def: Weezing, Rhydon, Magcargo, Donphan, Dialga, Giratina, Cresselia, Arceus, Zekrom.

SpA: Kadabra, Magneton, Togekiss, Giratina-O, Shaymin-Sky, Arceus, Zoroark, Zekrom, Genesect, Stratagem.

SpD: Tentacruel, Mr. Mime, Mantyke, Claydol, Kecleon, Palkia, Giratina, Arceus, Reshiram.

Since there is always complaints of Pokemon getting "trolled", I will list them now so that griping may commence. I have selected 120 because I believe it the final reasonable threshold for a Rank 5 Attack, and I have no issues with the subsequent scrunching of Rank 3 and Rank 4. Here are the Pokemon between 116 and 119 in HP/Atk/Def/SpA/SpD:

HP: Musharna (116)

Atk: Krookodile (117), Fraxure (117)

Def: Shieldon (118), Hippowdon (118), Cyclohm (118), Bronzong (116)

SpA: Yanmega (116)

SpD: Bronzong (116), Ferrothorn (116)

Stat Categories shall now be:

Rank 1: 0-25
Rank 2: 26-60
Rank 3: 61-95
Rank 4: 96-119
Rank 5: 120-140
Rank 6: 141-160
Rank 7: 161-180
Rank 8: 181-200
Rank 9: 201+

Consider this change effective immediately in all new battles.

 

[Gerard]

I have nothing to say about DK new implementations (just that mike togetic will be happy), but i just want to to a little "reminder"

Right now, we haven't really seen Cyclohm's max power, we have only seen an itemless pokemon with great movepool and great abilities, but now whit Items being buyable for TC, you'll really see how powerful a pokemon that get's "STAB" in every move can be (seriously if it was good before, think about how good it will be with a recoiless +3 BP in EVERY MOVE)

EDIT: Really, i remember to read it did, then forget what i said, but still expert belt will be just as good considering it's movepool
.

 

[Fire Blast]

I have nothing to say about DK new implementations (just that mike togetic will be happy), but i just want to to a little "reminder"

Right now, we haven't really seen Cyclohm's max power, we have only seen an itemless pokemon with great movepool and great abilities, but now whit Items being buyable for TC, you'll really see how powerful a pokemon that get's "STAB" in every move can be (seriously if it was good before, think about how good it will be with a recoiless +3 BP in EVERY MOVE)

If you are reffering to the Life Orb, Sheer Force doesn't stop the recoil in ASB.

 

[IceBug]

I'm perfectly fine with the new Rank5 cutoff. Helps some pokemon who aren't getting any use whatsoever, and isn't quite low enough to make Ohm and Bronzong even more bulky (scary thought).

The change to Freeze now makes the status useful, so no complaints.

With Mountaineer's new description, I can forsee it causing some issues in Switch = OK, but it definitely balanced it for Switch = KO. I suppose we can burn that bridge if Switch = OK rises in popularity, but for now I'm just fine with letting it roll.

 

[Temperantia]

Thank you, Deck. Everything is now as it should be in the stat world. :3

I personally think the CAP's with custom abilities and attacks wad kind of a bs idea from the start. Obviously, they're going to be broken since they were made to be pretty much broken. Though troll-Freak did make Magic Guard...

 

[smashlloyd20]

I like the stat changes.

Fuck you for trolling Bronzong

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Fuck you for trolling Bronzong

No one really has any right to complain with Bronzong, as the Levitate change in the OP allows it to use Heatproof as its ability and keep the full effects of Levitate. No weakness Bronzong is spectacular enough as-is. Anyway, in order to not buff Cyclohm when it definitely should not be buffed, I think Krookodile and Bronzong and Musharna are worthy sacrifices. Besides, I don't think his fiat on stats would be fair to 116, considering the close vote that he's overturning was specifically for a change from 121 to 120.

 

[Gerard]

I think Feeze should be like old sleep, instead of lasting 1/1/2, to last 1/2/3, since really freezing is a biggest status than sleep, with several ways to stop it, and not reliable in any way, it will happen once every ten ice beams (ignoring dunsparce), and while haxy, should be al least a little more powerful than sleep since in-game sleep lasts max 3 turns, freeze should last about 5 turns, so i think a little moe powerful effect should be implemented, since even if you are frozen, now there are some ways to throw by yourself (a lot more than if you were sleep, sleep talk and snore)

 

[Flamestrike]

I don't mind that 116-119 gets shafted; Cyclohm doesn't need to be any stronger. As someone who felt that 120 was the right amount for Rank 5, I'm really glad this went through.

 

[Pallas Athena]

120 cut-off: I dissprove to a degree, but I see Deck's logic. The reason it failed to past was it was arbitrary to move it, and there was no reason to do so. However, the new +speed nature sweepers mean this is now a good idea... to an extent.

Tutor Program: More Tutors than we have tutees. Other than that, I like the system.

Bide (and broken mons): I still think this is very cheap, and I think it might even be unhealthy for the game. Here's my reason: the arguments surrounding both Clohm and Gar being broken always include Bide. Always. Clohm is insanely good, as is Gar, but the real reason people have difficulties with them (and all Gen One mons) is that you can't afford to attack them, but they can attack you. That's really it. Sure, you can use your sub to block Bide, but then Gengar can cripple you or Clohm can attack or make it rain. You can't attack them, but they can certainly attack you. That said, I don't know how to deal with Bide. Maybe cap the damage at 50 or 55? Dealing 17 or 18 damage an action is good, but not totally unrealistic.

Sleep/Evasion: No opinion

Freeze: Needs codified. Seriously, I've never been able to ref this well.

Combos: I really hope they don't get codified. I violently opposed combos when they were first officially legalised. I now oppose their codification, as it brings out the worst in them that I opposed. Currently, you can try to finish off a mon with a desperate combo before you go out, but you don't know exactly how or if it will work, just like a brand new move would realistically work. If it's codified, they become to easy to use/abuse with absolute certaintly in it. Seriously, a good creative ref with some experience can manage things just fine. We don't need to make this needlessly complex.

Approvers: I see why this is needed. Its worth testing.

 

[Tortferngatr]

You forgot Syclant for attack on the "trolled" section (base 116, actually,) but oh well.

I approve.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

I'm going to out and say it: I think paralysis is broken.

It creates this pervasive effect of 25% (and less over time) chance of failing every one of your actions, and it reduces your Speed to a quarter of its normal levels, allowing Bronzong to outspeed your Gengar. Now, the part that really bothers me is how long it takes to wear off considering how incredibly powerful it is. I have a suggestion that I think will help fix the issues a lot. My suggestion is:

• Every time you are fully paralyzed, your paralysis level reduces by 5%.

This at the very least helps prevent you from being brutally haxed to oblivion. Keep in mind that being fully paralyzed is as powerful as one turn of sleep, and that statistically after a Thunder Wave you will be fully paralyzed multiple times before it is cured. This means that if you get fully paralyzed at 25%, you go to 20%. This also means that after a Thunder Wave, you'd have to be fully paralyzed for four actions over two rounds in order for it to wear off in two rounds. Over three rounds, you'd have to be fully paralyzed twice for it to wear off. Quite frankly, being fully paralyzed once is game-changing, and plausibly being fully paralyzed repeatedly without any chance of letup is beyond insanity. You could also justify my suggestion from an anime point as after you lock up, you stretch a bit and regain your control a bit better, so there's really no flavor reason to not implement it either.

 

[Pallas Athena]

I've always found Paralysis the most annoying status condition in the recent game (15 BP Dynamic punch confusion and old burn were worse though, wven when Paralysis wouldn't wear off.) I think that since there is a way to speed up every other status ending (bar Burn) this only makes sense.

 

[Deck Knight]

I'm going to out and say it: I think paralysis is broken.

It creates this pervasive effect of 25% (and less over time) chance of failing every one of your actions, and it reduces your Speed to a quarter of its normal levels, allowing Bronzong to outspeed your Gengar. Now, the part that really bothers me is how long it takes to wear off considering how incredibly powerful it is. I have a suggestion that I think will help fix the issues a lot. My suggestion is:

• Every time you are fully paralyzed, your paralysis level reduces by 5%.

This at the very least helps prevent you from being brutally haxed to oblivion. Keep in mind that being fully paralyzed is as powerful as one turn of sleep, and that statistically after a Thunder Wave you will be fully paralyzed multiple times before it is cured. This means that if you get fully paralyzed at 25%, you go to 20%. This also means that after a Thunder Wave, you'd have to be fully paralyzed for four actions over two rounds in order for it to wear off in two rounds. Over three rounds, you'd have to be fully paralyzed twice for it to wear off. Quite frankly, being fully paralyzed once is game-changing, and plausibly being fully paralyzed repeatedly without any chance of letup is beyond insanity. You could also justify my suggestion from an anime point as after you lock up, you stretch a bit and regain your control a bit better, so there's really no flavor reason to not implement it either.

Status Implementations:

Paralysis:

Yeah, the makes sense, I'm implementing it immediately.

Sleep:

Sleep will change so that it still has two intensities, but three actual stages.

Sleep Stage 1: 1/3rd. If inflicted with Sleep Stage 1, a Pokemon with Early Bird will wake up immediately. All other Pokemon will be asleep for 1 action.
Sleep Stage 2: 1/3rd. All Pokemon inflicted with Stage 2 Sleep will be asleep for 1 action.
Sleep Stage 3: 1/3rd. If Inflicted with Sleep Stage 3, a Pokemon with Early Bird will wake up after 1 action. All other Pokemon will be asleep for 2 actions.

Sleep will no longer be weakened after successive sleeps, and will not have a 3 sleep per Pokemon limit. The Sleep Counter will however go down whenever a Pokemon takes 16 or more damage from a single attack (not in a single action, so two attacks that deal 15 damage each in doubles will not reduce the sleep counter.)

Freeze:

Freeze will now cause the Pokemon to lose actions like Sleep, and will have two intensities.

Freeze Stage 1: The Pokemon will be frozen for 1 action.
Freeze Stage 2: The Pokemon will be frozen for 2 actions.

The following attacks can be used while frozen and will remove the Freeze condition from the Pokemon (they will still have their accuracy check to determine if they hit the opponent):

Blast Burn, Blue Flare, Eruption, Flame Charge, Flame Wheel, Flare Blitz, Fusion Flare, Inferno, Lava Plume, Magma Storm, Overheat, Sacred Fire, Scald, Searing Shot, and V-Create.

If a Pokemon is hit by a Fire attack or Scald while frozen, it will remove the freeze condition.

Unless there are objections, these will all take effect immediately.

 

[Objection]

Just to check, how are the freeze stages working? Is it a 50:50 chance of each stage whenever there is a freeze or do certain attacks guarantee stage 2 while others can only be stage 1?

 

[Deck Knight]

Just to check, how are the freeze stages working? Is it a 50:50 chance of each stage whenever there is a freeze or do certain attacks guarantee stage 2 while others can only be stage 1?

It's a 50/50 shot each. There's no special ice move that actually inflicts the freeze status, and Blizzard already has enough perks.