Data State of the Game - 07/10/2011 (Huge Stat Announcement)

[Metal Bagon]

Yeah I'm now going back to the roots of this thread and start answering the questions

1. Referee Tutoring Program:

I've only started it a week and a bit ago and I've already learnt a lot. it's perfect as it is and I don't think any new changes are needed

2. Bide Revisited:

Never seen it used so my opinion won't really matter.

3. Substitute Revisited:

I'd recommend bringing in a fourth tier of subsitution "10 HP sub." It makes perfect sense considering that there already is 15, 20 and 25 HP subs.

4. "Brokenmons":

Gengar has the worst rap at the moment, though Cyclohm gets a fair amount of it. What specifically is the problem?

Lets look at it this way, Gastly (gengar's first form) can have up to rank 5 Sp.attack even if it is fresh out of the prize claiming thread. If it goes up against a fully evolved Cycholm and uses shadow ball. A gastly in its first form, without training can do 14 damage to a fully Cycholm that is also considered relatively poweful. Does that seems fair and un-broken to you.

 

[C$FP]

We aren't talking about how easy it is to fight with a Gastly and turn it into a Haunter, then Gengar. We are talking about Gengar.

 

[Tortferngatr]

And besides, I can do the exact same thing-except arguably even MORE potency-with a Solosis. STAB Psychic hits slightly harder than STAB Shadow Ball anyway. Or I can use Cranidos, who for a single more TC gets 6 Attack with a positive nature and even stronger moves.

While I can say from experience Monohm is a beast from the womb, the discussion is on Gengar and Cyclohm-who get a LOT more tricks than their prevolutions do.

Keep in mind the Cyclohm is doing far more back to Gastly than vice versa. Cyclohm is the one using the stab Sheer Force Thunders, not Gastly.

 

[Gerard]

I think Gengar is a little nerfed if sleep stay this way, he would have lost one of it's main weapons, Cyclohm on the other way stills the same in power, and seriously with the new items it's only going to go crazier

 

[Leethoof]

Well, how exactly do we "nerf" a pokemon? Currently, the only way we can do it fairly without crapping on Cyclohm owners is by changing the stat-to-rank value, or specifically nerfing each of its moves, which would also hurt other pokemon who use that move as well.

I guess we could say, "oh cyclohm only have 3 special attack now problem solved", but that would be very unfair to ohm owners.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Edit: well it seems you changed it to 14 (at least in the move description, it still says 15 in the reasoning), so I agree completely.

Yes, sorry about that. Initially I had it at 15 BAP because I thought that's what it was in-game, but then I checked and it's 14. Anyway, both my reasoning and change idea should be 14 BAP to match the 140 BP it is in-game.

 

[Deck Knight]

Lets look at it this way, Gastly (gengar's first form) can have up to rank 5 Sp.attack even if it is fresh out of the prize claiming thread. If it goes up against a fully evolved Cycholm and uses shadow ball. A gastly in its first form, without training can do 14 damage to a fully Cycholm that is also considered relatively poweful. Does that seems fair and un-broken to you.

Munchlax

It'll cost you a bit more, but please, Gastly's like a lot of mons in that it hits the statistical jackpot of 30+ Base in its weakest stats. Otherwise it's nothing to write home about. Most of its tricks, just like in-game, are related to disabling attacks, the fact it has a non-impotent offense is gravy, but it's not like Shadow Ball and Sludge Bomb hit a whole lot for SE damage, and they have pretty low BAPs to boot when compared to other mons.

Machop has pretty much the same kind of useful stat build, starting with 100 HP and Rank 3 in an Attack and Defense, and its got infinitely better abilities and stronger attacks. We could do a big go-round on this forever, but suffice it to say first forms do not make a mon broken whatsoever. Plenty of Pokemon are comparable to Gastly. Solosis does the exact same thing, the only difference is it's slower and replaces the status moves with absurd abilities.

So yes, a mon with 2 true immunities, weak BAP STABs, and a single ability that by all technical rights has been somewhat weakened (Levitate basically stops Dig and Seismic Attacks, and weakens EP, it is not an all-purpose Ground immune, meaning you can hit Gastly's Ground weakness with mud-based attacks and moves like Drill Run and Bone Rush.) is indeed quite fair and un-broken to me.

 

[Pallas Athena]

Well, I'm not sure of how to say this, or why I even get involved in what will likely be a hopeless cause, but here it goes:

I request that the sleep stages change be taken to a vote. Kaxtar's objection has caused at least three committe members to oppose the change, and in all honesty, it's a large change to implement on the lack of objection from one player's proposal. I personally believe that the old sleep stages can be balanced by the new decay mechanics alone, and it makes the unreliable sleep a legitimate status like it's compatriots. And honestly, if no controversial issue is ever taken to the PRC, why do we even bother having it?

 

[TravelLog]

6. Evasive Move Use
Here is where I have another problem. ASB is supposed to be about creativity. As such, I think there are a number of moves which should have evasive potential, but only if the user is creative enough to think of something reasonable. Agility should be kept as an evasive move, but only when part of a combo since it doesn't in and of itself involve movement. Aqua Jet, Vacuum Wave, Extremespeed etc. should have the potential for evasive use, but not guaranteed. It should increase dodge chance by a set percentage based on the move, perhaps for increased energy cost during evasive use. Perhaps we might institute a system like this:
Base Energy Cost=x
+10% dodge chance= x+3 energy
+25% dodge chance= x+6 energy
+50% dodge chance= x+10 energy

These are by no means set. I'm open to ideas about it.
Furthermore, greater creativity should to some degree be rewarded. If I see something incredibly unique and intelligent (creativity without well-thought out reasoning is not what I'm talking about), you better believe I will let the move work.

I'd still like some feedback on this.

 

[Deck Knight]

Well, I'm not sure of how to say this, or why I even get involved in what will likely be a hopeless cause, but here it goes:

I request that the sleep stages change be taken to a vote. Kaxtar's objection has caused at least three committe members to oppose the change, and in all honesty, it's a large change to implement on the lack of objection from one player's proposal. I personally believe that the old sleep stages can be balanced by the new decay mechanics alone, and it makes the unreliable sleep a legitimate status like it's compatriots. And honestly, if no controversial issue is ever taken to the PRC, why do we even bother having it?

No other status can guarantee an opponent loses an action (well freeze can... 10% of the time. If they don't have a fair number of powerful Fire moves or Scald). Sleep can. Occasionally it even stops 2 actions, or forces an opponent to rely on something random like Sleep Talk. Slow sleep is possibly even more powerful than fast sleep, since it allows you to perform any action, even combinations, on a foe you know will be basically helpless.

 

[Objection]

Yeah, I agree with the changes made to sleep simply because it costs less energy to inflict 1-turn sleep than it does to use Protect (unless you're protecting against a non-damaging attack). The fact that you have a chance to inflict 2-turn sleep for that much energy is imo quite generous.

However, I can't say I agree with RD's proposed changes to Sing and GrassWhistle. What that effectively is, is a Protect that works on consecutive actions for a lower energy cost 90% of the time. As you said, if you're racking up Toxic damage or something, that can become incredibly powerful - a little too powerful. The Last Resort one I can't see causing any problems though.

 

[Kaxtar]

No other status can guarantee an opponent loses an action (well freeze can... 10% of the time. If they don't have a fair number of powerful Fire moves or Scald). Sleep can. Occasionally it even stops 2 actions, or forces an opponent to rely on something random like Sleep Talk. Slow sleep is possibly even more powerful than fast sleep, since it allows you to perform any action, even combinations, on a foe you know will be basically helpless.

But sleep is not guaranteed Deck, far from it. All but two sleep moves have perfect accuracy (and Spore has distribution to like six Pokemon), so there is a pretty decent chance of your sleep move missing in the first place. Secondly, Sleep can be blocked by a ton of things, ranging from Magic Coat, Taunt, Substitute, Protect, Worry Seed, Uproar, and dozens of other moves. Sleep moves can also be negated by many common RP-like commands, such as using Bug Buzz to drown out the noise of a Yawn or using an Ember to burn up the Spore of a Sleep Powder. All of these ways to block, negate or dodge a sleep-inflicting move means that Sleep is NOT guaranteed at all.

This unreliability means that Sleep has essentially degraded to an unreliable Protect with the slight chance of blocking one extra action. In fact, I'm willing to argue that with these changes, Sleep moves are actually WORSE than Protect. Sleep moves always cost more than Protect unless you choose to Protect against an attacking move. While you may say that this is the main sue of Protect, that is far from the truth. Most people use Protect to block things like Status and Taunt, not attacks due to the high energy costs associated. Thus, in many cases, Sleep will cost more Energy than Protect for the same outcome, assuming sleep hits against many other factors. Do we really want Sleep, a game-changing status in-game, to become a risky and often worse Protect, something that every single pokemon gets?

And finally, no one has even tried to convince me that 1/2/3 Sleep with Decay is broken or unbalanced. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Unless we can find something seriously wrong with 1/2/3 Decay sleep, we should keep it the way it is.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

However, I can't say I agree with RD's proposed changes to Sing and GrassWhistle. What that effectively is, is a Protect that works on consecutive actions for a lower energy cost 90% of the time. As you said, if you're racking up Toxic damage or something, that can become incredibly powerful - a little too powerful.

Not that I don't necessarily disagree, but it's at 0 priority and not +4 priority, which is a major difference. I mean, Protect works reliably is the thing, whereas stuff like what I'm proposing actually costs more initially and builds in cost over time. Perhaps having a fixed cost associated with it per action would be better, like Dig/Fly/Dive. How is this:

GrassWhistle: The Pokemon folds a leaf or large blade of grass and blows into it like a primitive flute. The soothing music puts the target Pokemon to sleep, and keeps it asleep for as long as the music is played. For each extra action the music is played, it costs seven (7) energy per action. Even if the song does not put the target to sleep, the move will calm down a Pokemon that is using rage-based moves like Outrage, Thrash, or Uproar, stopping their onslaught and preventing the resulting confusion.

Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 7 per action | Attack Type: Other | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Grass | Priority: 0 | CT: Passive

Sing: The Pokemon sings a calming lullaby to its opponent. The soothing song puts the target Pokemon to sleep, and keeps it asleep for as long as the song is sung. For each extra action the music is played, it costs seven (7) energy per action. Even if the song does not put the target to sleep, the move will calm down a Pokemon that is using rage-based moves like Outrage, Thrash, or Uproar, stopping their onslaught and preventing the resulting confusion.

Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 7 per action | Attack Type: Other | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 | CT: Passive

This way it costs more over two actions and over three than the other one. Putting this in perspective, if you keep an opponent immobile for 3 actions, it costs 21 energy. Protect only costs 21 energy if you block 42 damage with Protect, which is a 4x super effective stat-boosted and STAB-boosted move. Furthermore, if you're using this move exclusively to stack residual damage, the most you can deal per action within reason (I mean, you could add silly things like Black Sludge damage and more) is 5 poison damage, 2 burn damage, and 2 weather damage. That's 9 damage for 7 energy an action, which is more costly than using a STAB attack that hits neutrally. Seriously, Shadow Punch with STAB costs 3 energy and deals 9 damage before stat differences. Honestly, considering the net costs associated with this, it'd be a niche move and not something you just drop on a Pokemon. It would be a calculated strategic ploy, like it should be, but that'd make it far more useful than it is currently, which is a terrible move that should not be attempted by anyone seriously trying to win a battle.

 

[Pallas Athena]

If there are really no problems with the sleep proposal, then clearly the PRC would obviously agree. As Kaxtar said, with the new decay mechanics, sleep isn't really that bad since you can't deal 15 damage a hit and not score a decay. Can we please test the sleep nerf one step at a time, or actually let the PRC do something other than trivial issues?

 

[Temperantia]

@R_D: I live your proposals for Grasswhistle and Sing. It would be an amazing strategy for doubles and triples, while in singles it's only a desperate ploy to be used as a last resort.

@The sleep argument: I honestly prefer the current mechanics. The whole point of sleep is to actually be able to set up, not just an unreliable Protect.

 

[Deck Knight]

Sleep was never intended to reliably disable foes for 2/3rds of a round. Period. Sleep was always meant to disable for 1 action on average because otherwise sleep is too powerful. The PRC does not exist to make CAP ASB a democracy, it is not. I defer to it on broader issues like forum-wide issues. Moves have almost exclusively changed by implementations. Effects that can disable all moves entirely are different than nuances in how we deal with burn or confusion.

What I may do is split it into 4, making it 1/1/2/2, and buffing Early Bird further (e.g. it will have 0/0/1/1). That gives a 50% chance of 1 action and a 50% chance of two actions, then add the 16 DMG thing (I have selected 16 since a STAB 10 BAP move with a 1 Rank advantage does 15 Damage, and should not disrupt sleep.)

As it stands Protect is one of the strongest, most useful moves in the game. Having a "weaker" version that is slightly inaccurate on most users, costs much less energy, and has lower distribution should be no concern.

As far as Sing/Grasswhistle, Uproar is louded and should overpower, in addition to the fact the move itself prevents sleep on the entire field as an effect.

 

[Objection]

Deck, that looks more like just splitting it into 2 rather than 4 (1/2 for non-Early Bird mons, 0/1 for Early Bird mons). Just a semantic thing.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

As far as Sing/Grasswhistle, Uproar is louded and should overpower, in addition to the fact the move itself prevents sleep on the entire field as an effect.

Yes, but Uproar's description already says that it overpowers other sound-based effects, so that goes without saying.

 

[Engineer Pikachu]

It might just be a small idiosyncrasy on my part, but I kind of disagree with the new Sing/Grasswhistle, mainly due to the fact that the accuracy of the aforementioned moves were changed. This kind of opens up a whole new realm of "hey let's change this" in regards to move info that is coded into the actual games. While giving Sing and Grasswhistle effects other than their extremely shaky sleep is undoubtedly a good idea, I don't quite think that this is the right way to go.

As of right now, I'm at a loss for ideas, but I'll (hopefully) edit them in when I think of something worth editing. Though I really like the main idea of the moves, the accuracy change is just a bit off-putting.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

I've considered that too, but I can't genuinely think of any way to make a move good when it only has 55% accuracy without breaking it when it hits like with Zap Cannon / Inferno / DynamicPunch. That's why I went for a general purpose effect change to justify the changed accuracy. I'm open to suggestions, but the moves definitely need a lot of help.

 

[Pallas Athena]

We've already changed the BP of a few attacks. Accuracy doesn't seem to be that bad in comparison, so long as the entire point of the move is changed.

 

[Engineer Pikachu]

We haven't really changed the BP of moves like Fire Fang and Thunderbolt; we just rounded up from 6.5 to 7 and 9.5 to 10, respectively. Besides, even if we had deliberately changed it, it's not as big of a deal as Sing and Grasswhistle. 55% accuracy to --% accuracy is an astonishingly huge leap. That being said, I'm still not so sold on the effect; in the common Doubles situation where it turns into a 2v1, spending 21 energy so your other Pokemon can ruthlessly smash the opponent with no chance of retaliation is quite good. Maybe we could apply the decay to GrassWhistle and Sing as well?

 

[Rising_Dusk]

That is also because the moves Fire Fang and Thunderbolt are far from lacking in any respect. Also, I really don't think Sing and GrassWhistle is a big deal by any rights, as the moves have unimpressive distribution. Anyway, you raise a decent point. We could make Sing and GrassWhistle affect all adjacent Pokemon like it did in the anime. That would prevent abuse in doubles, and because of positioning, keep triples fair as well. Brawl formats would just put everything to sleep, which admittedly would be hilarious. If it affects allies, though, it should definitely cost less than 7 energy per action. This would mean you'd need a crazy Worry Seed / Insomnia / Early Bird strategy going on in doubles to make it worthwhile, which honestly sounds fine to me.

 

[Metal Bagon]

@R_D: I live your proposals for Grasswhistle and Sing. It would be an amazing strategy for doubles and triples, while in singles it's only a desperate ploy to be used as a last resort.

@The sleep argument: I honestly prefer the current mechanics. The whole point of sleep is to actually be able to set up, not just an unreliable Protect.

I strongly agree with everyting in this post.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Sorry for spamming this thread with my own personal brand of upgrades for moves, but I have to in order for anything to get fixed up to not suck. Consider it a personal crusade of mine. Anyway, here I go with yet another move I think needs some love.

Chatter as it is:

Chatter: The Pokemon yells meaningless statements at the opponent loudly. This move can hit any single Pokemon on the field, regardless of position.

Attack Power: 6 | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 4 | Attack Type: Special | Effect Chance: 20% | Typing: Flying | Priority: 0 | CT: Passive

Chatter as I envision it:

Chatter: The Pokemon yells meaningless statements at the opponent loudly. It has either a 1/3, 2/3, or 3/3 chance to confuse the opponent depending upon how inane the rambling is. This move can hit any single Pokemon on the field, regardless of position.

Attack Power: 6 | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 4 (1/3%), 6 (2/3%), 9 (3/3%) | Attack Type: Special | Effect Chance: Variable | Typing: Flying | Priority: 0 | CT: Passive

Chatter is learned by only one Pokemon in all of Pokemon. It can only be learned by Chatot (Nope, Smeargle can't Sketch Chatter). In ASB, Chatot costs 7 TC and is a 100/3/2/3/2/91 Pokemon with terrible abilities and Normal/Flying typing. In-game, Chatter has the effect of having a higher confusion rate based on the volume of a recorded sound. I think it would be super cool to translate it to ASB and have it so that Chatot's user can control how much of a chance to confuse the move has at the expense of more energy. Let's put this in perspective: DynamicPunch has 10 BAP, 50% accuracy, and costs 8 en for 100% chance to confuse. Chatter, as I propose it and when 3/3 is chosen, would have 6 BAP, 100% accuracy, and cost 9 en for 100% chance to confuse. Nearly half as strong, but without the necessity of No Guard (Face it, Chatot's best ability is Keen Eye...) and 1 extra energy cost and I think that it's a very fair move. Mind you, Soundproof Pokemon destroy this move to begin with, so there's also that. Furthermore, since only Chatot gets it, and Chatot is a very poor Pokemon with poor coverage and otherwise zero niche, this would give it something unique to actually contribute to its team.