Data State of The Game (11/13/2011) - IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT IN POST #233

[Spenstar]

Okay. So in the battle tower and in the main ASB forum, I've been seeing variations of Unknown soup combined with smeargle to allow smeargle to learn any move he wants to within the battle, even moves that are really hard to get or even impossible to learn otherwise. As far as I am concerned, it violates the honor system as much as Pay Day abuse before it and needs to be addressed. It also makes smeargle way more powerful than he already is, verging on potentially broken.

 

[Deck Knight]

Okay. So in the battle tower and in the main ASB forum, I've been seeing variations of Unknown soup combined with smeargle to allow smeargle to learn any move he wants to within the battle, even moves that are really hard to get or even impossible to learn otherwise. As far as I am concerned, it violates the honor system as much as Pay Day abuse before it and needs to be addressed. It also makes smeargle way more powerful than he already is, verging on potentially broken.

A blanket rule could be instated that any moves learned from arena effects are temporary, which would effectively make Sketching a move in Unown Soup equivalent to Mimic.

 

[Spenstar]

A blanket rule could be instated that any moves learned from arena effects are temporary, which would effectively make Sketching a move in Unown Soup equivalent to Mimic.

That's a great way to fix that issue. While we're on the topic, sketching Metronomed moves is almost exactly the same thing. Should sketch metronome moves also be treated like mimic?

 

[Darkamber8828]

Okay. So in the battle tower and in the main ASB forum, I've been seeing variations of Unknown soup combined with smeargle to allow smeargle to learn any move he wants to within the battle, even moves that are really hard to get or even impossible to learn otherwise. As far as I am concerned, it violates the honor system as much as Pay Day abuse before it and needs to be addressed. It also makes smeargle way more powerful than he already is, verging on potentially broken.

As one of these "abusers", I'm going to naturally protest. Smeargle has a pathetic BRT of 11, and has a grand total of one immunity and zero resistances to back it up. Outside of Tortferngatr's Sleep Talk and Captivate, it's like the only pokemon that cannot be pumped up to with UC, which makes training it a pain in the ass. The "three moves per round" Sketch rule mitigates "Pay Day Syndrome", and personally, even a potential full move Smeargle, which would take around 183 battles, while formidable, would ultimately still be unable to beat popular mons like Gengar and Cyclohm because of its inability to take hits or kill things at all. Also, Taunt neuters it, and 87 Speed leaves much to be desired.

 

[jayjinde]

Yes, Amber, but Smeargle gets the ability to sleep an entire team for two moves (Dark Void), kill an entire battlefield in 3 rounds (Perish Song), and reflect any round's damage back (Bide), and that's just one battle. Who cares if it can't attack, it can kill you anyways with Mirror Coat / Counter / Bide / Metal Burst / Endeavor. Oh, it's low on health after killing one Pokemon? Just Pain Split up on the next one! It has more options than any other Pokemon, every option actually, and you can't taunt it because it can easily just use Magic Coat to stop you from taunting it.

Now that I've given my counter-rant, I'd like to offer a solution: Any legendary move (Dark Void, etc) could be bought for 3 or so MC. So, if it wants a Legendary move, it has to lose an entire match's MC just to get the one broken move.

 

[LouisCyphre]

Okay. So in the battle tower and in the main ASB forum, I've been seeing variations of Unknown soup combined with smeargle to allow smeargle to learn any move he wants to within the battle, even moves that are really hard to get or even impossible to learn otherwise. As far as I am concerned, it violates the honor system as much as Pay Day abuse before it and needs to be addressed. It also makes smeargle way more powerful than he already is, verging on potentially broken.

This is the only real way to train a Smeargle. There are two alternatives:

1) Find someone with the desired move on a mon, and challenge them to bring that move specifically.
2) Not buying Smeargle. Ever. Because you can't train him reasonably.

Having an option (realistically expensive, mind - 4 or more) to UC moves directly onto Smeargle would be the ideal answer.

 

[Engineer Pikachu]

Also, Taunt neuters it, and 87 Speed leaves much to be desired.

This is bs and you know it. Moving second and your opponent uses Taunt? Agility/Teleport/Protect/Detect/Magic Coat. Moving first and your opponent uses Taunt? Just put in a substitution. If you want to and you have enough moves (those five are fairly widespread), your Smeargle will never get Taunted.

Anyway, I really don't think that you should be able to Sketch Unown Soup moves. The fact remains that the "legendary" moves that most Smeargle users are Sketching in Unown Soup (e.g. Dark Void, V-Create) are not usable by any Pokemon thus far.

 

[Metal Bagon]

Maybe there should be an auction thread/RP where people can auction off pokemon for CC/UC. That way you could get rid of pokemon and others can obtain pokemon they want for a bargin. I would be willing to run something like this. Thought's anyone?

I think this this a good idea to solve the discussion to do with getting rid of unwanted pokmon and such. I'd like some people to share their thoughts about so I can see if this idea is viable.

 

[Terrador]

I love the idea of auctions, to be honest - however, it kind of falls apart once you get to very well-built mons (35+ moves or so), since it would be far more CC than any player holds on to.

 

[Athenodoros]

People are unlikely to sell hugely built up mons, and most people can lay their hands on cash quickly through RC if they need to. And it seems like a minor problem if the idea is sound in principle. It was like when the Subway opened and people said the items where a bad idea because no one would ever have enough BP to get them. People will save if there is an incentive.

EDIT: Oh, and as an approver I agree with this so people stop spending their leftover TCs on new mons. It's happening a lot atm, so clearly people are not running short of CC.

 

[Lord Jesseus]

Well it's an auction, it's expected to go for cheaper than its worth, the point is that it's not FREE, you actually have to do something to get it.
Also what Atheno said.

I proposed this idea ages ago but I was shot down. :/

edit:

Oh, and as an approver I agree with this so people stop spending their leftover TCs on new mons. It's happening a lot atm, so clearly people are not running short of CC.

Haha yeah, I bought 8 mons at once a while ago due to boredom/leftover TC...

 

[Flamestrike]

Just noticed something on Bulbapedia concerning Reflect/Light Screen:

In a double battle, Reflect protects both allied Pokémon, but only reduces physical damage by a third rather than by half


Not sure if anyone cares enough to make this change, but it's interesting at least.

 

[Gerard]

Is there a reason some abilities that increase power in 50% are increased in 2 while others are increase by 3? Like how Torrent an co. Guts, Toxic and Flare Boost, Flower Gift and Solar Power, (all +50%) all of them increase in +2 while Hustle, STAB an Crits (again +50%) do it in +3.

Why not makem them all be in the same range since they are all the same boost?, and considering you have to be in a bad position already (burned, poisoned, almost dead, losing life every turn and being paired with a Cherrim), at least as bad as a shaky accuracy.

inb4 this comes and bites me in te ass (swarm, heracross and machamp)

 

[jayjinde]

One more thing I'd like to point out is that Stat Stages no longer match up. The spacing between each stage is different on the positive side.
+10.5 x10.5
+8.75 x8.75
+7.00 x7.00
+5.25 x5.25
+3.50 x3.50
+1.75 x1,75
+0.00 x1.00
The way the stages normally work is that it boosts by half the stat each stage, so here's what I propose:
+5.50
+4.75
+4.00
+3.25
+2.50
+1.75
+0.00
-1.75
-2.50
-3.25
-4.00
-4.75
-5.50

Now, it is evenly spaced, and it also matches up with ingame stages (Assuming Base 100, 252 EV, 31 IV)

 

[zarator]

This is the only real way to train a Smeargle. There are two alternatives:

1) Find someone with the desired move on a mon, and challenge them to bring that move specifically.
2) Not buying Smeargle. Ever. Because you can't train him reasonably.

Having an option (realistically expensive, mind - 4 or more) to UC moves directly onto Smeargle would be the ideal answer.

Raids (lol)

On a more serious note, I'd revise the way Smeargle training works in the way Cyphre suggests. The current system is unsatisfying and can be easily gamed.

(off topic) @Athenodoros: you silly guys running out of CC, buy me some Poké Balls O_O

 

[deadfox081]

One more thing I'd like to point out is that Stat Stages no longer match up. The spacing between each stage is different on the positive side.
+10.5 x10.5
+8.75 x8.75
+7.00 x7.00
+5.25 x5.25
+3.50 x3.50
+1.75 x1,75
+0.00 x1.00
The way the stages normally work is that it boosts by half the stat each stage, so here's what I propose:
+5.50
+4.75
+4.00
+3.25
+2.50
+1.75
+0.00
-1.75
-2.50
-3.25
-4.00
-4.75
-5.50

Now, it is evenly spaced, and it also matches up with ingame stages (Assuming Base 100, 252 EV, 31 IV)

Stage boosts were changed a few SOtG's ago. Because they are not applied directly to the boosted stat (sans Speed) they need to be factored differently. ASB stage boosts are just an addition/subtraction to the move's damage and were set at the current levels as the best function of return for energy.

 

[jayjinde]

That was for the speed actually, they don't match up normally

 

[Objection]

Speed, accuracy and evasion boosts (outside of Double Team) work exactly the same as in-game. It's just attack, special attack, defence and special defence that use the 1.75 method.

EDIT:

Stage  Boost     Speed (100 Base)
+6     +10.50    1050
+5     +08.75    0875
+4     +07.00    0700 
+3     +05.25    0525
+2     +03.50    0350
+1     +01.75    0175
+0     +00.00    0100
-1     -01.75    0057
-2     -03.50    0028
-3     -05.25    0019
-4     -07.00    0014
-5     -08.75    0011
-6     -10.50    0009

What the!? Why is speed suddenly handled differently? What was wrong with copying the way it's handled in-game? And more importantly, given the impact of such a change, why was there no big announcement about it?

 

[Lord Jesseus]

I know exactly what you mean Objection...

 

[LouisCyphre]

That's how it was done since... stat modifiers were changed from 1.5 increments to 1.75. There WAS a SotG if you're inclined to dig for it.

 

[Objection]

That's how it was done since... stat modifiers were changed from 1.5 increments to 1.75. There WAS a SotG if you're inclined to dig for it.

I remember the change from 1.5 to 1.75, I do not recall the change to speed as well, and I have on occasion checked that post after the 1.75 thing to check what priority a combo has.

 

[Terrador]

Confirming above; though it has slipped my mind for ages (since nobody bothers with stat-ups very often), I do remember it occurring around the time that stat boosters went to +1.75.

 

[Gerard]

WTF!
I think this at least should be re-announced, this seriously makes a huge change since battles change with this (hell, one of my own battles vs terrador would have changed considerantly considering the difference between 1.5 an 1.75, cause of a +1 spe)

 

[Flamestrike]

Speed was never changed and works exactly as it does ingame AFAIK (neither were Accuracy or Evasion for that matter). Only the boosts affecting rank stats (ie Attack/Defense/Special Attack/Special Defense) were changed, going from +/-1.5 per boost/drop to +/-1.75

 

[Objection]

Speed was never changed and works exactly as it does ingame AFAIK (neither were Accuracy or Evasion for that matter). Only the boosts affecting rank stats (ie Attack/Defense/Special Attack/Special Defense) were changed, going from +/-1.5 per boost/drop to +/-1.75

I refer you to my earlier post quoting Deck from post #11 of the DAT.

The fact that a rather experienced ASBer like you also missed it just goes to show that not enough attention was brought to it.