Data State of The Game (11/13/2011) - IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT IN POST #233

[Flamestrike]

...well. That's kinda stupid.

There was no reason for speed to be changed at all, it was perfectly fine the way it was and it makes little sense to have changed it. Agreeing with the others that an explanation would be really nice right about now.

 

[LouisCyphre]

The explaination was to make Speed stages use the same numbers as the stages of other stats. Both +1 Attack and +1 Speed use "1.75" as their modifier, Attack just adds it while Speed uses it as a multiplier.

It also makes more sense when compared to in-game speeds. For example, +1 Speed Tyranitar now hits 106 (61*1.54) Speed, not 91 (61*1.5) Speed.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

I'd like to raise the point of multi person battles.

I am currently in a 1v1v1v1 battle, my pokemon has fainted, but I am inable to take on a new battle. Small stuff like this isnt a problem, but there are issues in the casses of battle like toasts 3v3v3v3v3v3. If one persons pokemon all die first, they are left wiht 2 battle slots for the remainder of the battle, which could easily take a month or more.

Comments?

 

[zarator]

I'd like to raise the point of multi person battles.

I am currently in a 1v1v1v1 battle, my pokemon has fainted, but I am inable to take on a new battle. Small stuff like this isnt a problem, but there are issues in the casses of battle like toasts 3v3v3v3v3v3. If one persons pokemon all die first, they are left wiht 2 battle slots for the remainder of the battle, which could easily take a month or more.

Comments?

It could be observed that nothing forced you to accept such challenges in the first place - when you do, you also accept the risks involved IMO. I know for a fact I always refrained from them.

 

[Son_of_Shadoo]

*makes mental note to drag Zar into a melee*

However, I agree with his point. If you faint and have to wait for everyone else, well, tough shit. That's simply the condition of accepting a melee.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

This is true, but there really isn't a reason for the participant to be penalized the battle slot until the end of the battle. For certain, prize claims would only be legal after the battle, but opening up the moveslot to the removed participant shouldn't cause any negative reactions on the rest of CAP ASB, while also ensuring that things dont slow down heavily for whatever amount of users are in the situation.

The only downside I can forsee is a slight increase in the amount of battles that need reffing, but with the capability of our current complement of refs as well as the recent influx or new ones I don't believe this is a significant issue.

 

[jayjinde]

Going back to the speed stages, I ran some calculations for speed. Deck said that he chose 1.15 as the speed multiplier because a Base 100's final stat at +Spe was nearly equal to a base 115. So, I decided to run some calcs for what a Base 100, neutral nature, would hit on the cartridge, and then what Base Speed that would tie/nearly hit.

Just for comparison, a Pokemon a base 52 can outspeed Deoxys-S at +2 under the current system.

Base 100's Final Speed Stat (on cartridge): 299
At +1: 299 * 1.5 = 449 (Base 175)
At +2: 299 * 2 = 598 (just short of Base 250)
At +3: 299 * 2.5 = 748 (just short of Base 325)

And so on. Basically, it mimics the cartridge's "increment the multiplier by a half", but changes the rate at which it increments to .75.

And for the negative stat multipliers, just multiply by 1/(the positive multiplier)

So, that would make the Speed multipliers for each stage:

+6 x5.50
+5 x4.75
+4 x4.00
+3 x3.25
+2 x2.50
+1 x1.75
=0 x 1.00
-1 x0.57
-2 x0.4
-3 x0.31
-4 x.25
-5 x.21
-6 x.18

Maybe, instead of pointing out "that isn't how it works here", somebody will see that this actually makes sense.

 

[Objection]

Yeah, that actually makes more sense than what is apparently currently is.

 

[deadfox081]

I would much rather just continue boosting speed/evasion/accuracy as it is done in game. There are already a hundred things to look up while reffing as it is, I would rather just go with something I already know.

 

[Athenodoros]

I agree, it should be the same as in-game. I didn't actually realise it wasn't, and no one has ever pulled me up on it.

 

[LouisCyphre]

Maybe Sun should boost fire moves by *1.5 damage instead of 3 BAP while we're at it.

 

[Terrador]

Maybe Sun should boost fire moves by *1.5 damage instead of 3 BAP while we're at it.

I sincerely hope that this is sarcasm. At any rate, the system we have now works; why change it?

 

[Spenstar]

Before weight class was applied to attacks, Body Slam and take down had the same BP: 9. Why is it that now Take Down is now more powerful? Shouldn't both moves add the mon's weight class/1.5, instead of Body Slam dividing by 2.5?

 

[Tortferngatr]

Maybe Sun should boost fire moves by *1.5 damage instead of 3 BAP while we're at it.

We did that once.

We decided it was broken.

 

[Deck Knight]

Here's been my problem with trying to get speed boosts to match the game:

We do use Base Speeds, but we don't use EVs. It is mathematically impossible to use a single multiplier value that would accurately reflect competitive Pokemon.

As far as speed boosters, the max Speed for a 52 Spe Pokemon (no nature) is 203, and in-game if they were to use a move like Agility or Shell Smash, their Speed would be 406, which is in fact faster than Deoxys without a boosting nature. That said, Max Spe + Spe Deoxys would be faster at 438, but again, without EVs it is basically impossible to scale this properly, and we can't really make assumptions about whether Jolly Tyranitar is supposed to be Max Spe while Adamant Tyranitar is not. That said, a 52 Base Spe Pokemon with a Spe boosting nature has 60 Spe, which boosts to 210, and in-game the value would be 446, which is faster than +Spe Deoxys.

So again, its a no win situation since EVs don't exist in ASB and would be horrific to implement.

 

[Objection]

At least make the gap between the positive boosters consistent, rather than 0 to +1 = +0.75 and all the others = +1.75. If you have to, overrule matching in-game with consistency within ASB.

 

[Ullar]

Currently, Yawn and Soundproof have conflicting definitions, despite the move working against the ability ingame. Yawn says it doesn't work if the opponent cannot hear the foe, and Soundproof says there is a sound-dampening barrier. It really needs to be codified, especially in the light of Heal Bell working against Heal Bell.

 

[Objection]

Well, in-game, Yawn is not blocked by Soundproof. And that kinda makes sense as well, since even if you don't hear the yawn, if you see it, you're still going to yawn as well.

 

[Candy Panda]

It is mathematically impossible to use a single multiplier value that would accurately reflect competitive Pokemon.

I might be missing something here, but why would it have to?

@Yawn; I agree with Objection with the real world interpretion of yawning and how it should work in ASB. That is only my opinion on it though, but nonetheless it needs to be clarified.

 

[Terrador]

I'd like to bring up the issue of Double Team in this SotG. As of now, the move costs far too little EN. Let's look at the statistics here.

For the equivalent of +3 Evasion: 4 EN
For the equivalent of +6 Evasion: 8 EN
For the equivalent of (hypothetical) +9 Evasion: 12 EN
For the equivalent of (hypothetical) +12 Evasion: 15 EN

Even though the clones can be destroyed by a lucky hit, a perfect-accuracy move, or a spread attack, this is still far too cheap; in particular, 4 EN for a 50% chance to dodge a single-target attack is unbelievable. Even though ASB is apparently operating off of the "common sense" interpretation of Double Team, both the anime (with picking out the evading Pokemon being a rather simple matter) and the cartridge game (using it as a vanilla +1 Evasion move) contradict our current interpretation of it. However, given its drawbacks, I believe that even its current iteration is usable with a bit of nerfing.

TL;DR quack Double Team needs to be nerfed.

 

[Deck Knight]

I'd like to bring up the issue of Double Team in this SotG. As of now, the move costs far too little EN. Let's look at the statistics here.

For the equivalent of +3 Evasion: 4 EN
For the equivalent of +6 Evasion: 8 EN
For the equivalent of (hypothetical) +9 Evasion: 12 EN
For the equivalent of (hypothetical) +12 Evasion: 15 EN

Even though the clones can be destroyed by a lucky hit, a perfect-accuracy move, or a spread attack, this is still far too cheap; in particular, 4 EN for a 50% chance to dodge a single-target attack is unbelievable. Even though ASB is apparently operating off of the "common sense" interpretation of Double Team, both the anime (with picking out the evading Pokemon being a rather simple matter) and the cartridge game (using it as a vanilla +1 Evasion move) contradict our current interpretation of it. However, given its drawbacks, I believe that even its current iteration is usable with a bit of nerfing.

TL;DR quack Double Team needs to be nerfed.

Double Team doesn't have any evasive benefit against attacks that hit multiple targets in multi-battles or perfect acc moves (which includes Pursuit), as being struck by either of them eliminates all clones.

 

[Flamestrike]

Yeah, there are much worse things than Double Team. Evasive Agility and Teleport for instance. Double Team can be annoying, but especially when you consider that a fair amount of fast +speed Pokemon can now get a 50%+ dodge thanks to the base dodge boost from Size Classes for just one more energy, and that Agility and Teleport are a guaranteed dodge that also has priority (meaning it's guaranteed to dodge any single target 0 priority attack bar Pursuit and never-miss attacks regardless of speed) for just 3 more energy, Double Team just isn't that bad in comparison.

 

[Terrador]

words

Duly noted; guess I didn't think my rant through very well, heh.

 

[Pallas Athena]

Terrador, Double Team is perfectly manageable as is. As Deck pointed out an extremely common (read: even more so than dig counters on most Pokemon from before Gen V) set of moves in muti-target moves easily hard counters it. As a bonus, pursuit also works. For what it's worth, even incredibly common Ariel Ace rejects Double Team with almost no energy compared to double team itself. Energy wise, it's an amazing tactic provided you can force your opponent to use their subs on other moves. Outside of this, it's unreliable, almost impossible to keep up when ordering first, and still a pretty large consumer of energy. While the frequency of the moves distribution is troubling, being beaten by Surf, Rock Slide, Heat Wave, Icy Wind, Earthquake, and Ariel Ace among other moves keeps it in check.

I personally don't see why getting extra evasion at roughly the cost of Sand Attack, and with more drawbacks, is a problem.

 

[deadfox081]

We should at very least update the DAT with the way we all use Double Team...