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Stealth Rock Less Ladder

I don't feel that sun teams are broken in this meta, while Ninetales can switch in more easily I find that all the same counters still work (Heatran, Latias/os, Terrakion) and Moltres is actually a good check as well.

I also like using Hippowdon in this meta as well, with SR gone you can free up a slot for Toxic and Whirlwind on the same set. This makes handling Dnites actually alot easier.
 
I wonder how Keldeo would work in this tier. I mean it can destroy Volcarona with a Surf/Hydro Pump, and it can also lower Dragonites speed with Icy Wind, while at the same time being able to deal a huge amount of damage to Kyurem-b with Secret Sword. This thing can also make Volcarona a huge threat by taking out Blissey, Moltres, AND Heatran.

Now that I said that everybody is gonna use Keldeo in a different way than in the standard metagame.... Hopefully.
 
scarf terrakion is a phenomenal revenge killer in this metagame with the growing popularity of rock-weak threats such as volcorona and dragonite!
 
OiawesomeDG said:
So fucking wrong, have you used volcrona? volcrona is one of the best sweepers in the metagame right now with obligatory sun support, and without rocks, this just makes it so much easier to switch in, also tell me how 85/105 is bad special bulk, especially in a currently specially biased metagame, sure it can't tank fucking outrages, but that's not why you USE volcarona, that's like saying you use dragonite to counter ice types, it doesn't make sense.

also, Quiver dance HP ground volcarona shits on so much stuff, it's not even funny, rain volcarona is also a huge ass threat, hurricane + bug buzz + giga drain destroyes usual switchins like keldeo
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^ This. I've seen Volcarona solo teams, especially if they don't know I'm running HP ground on it.

On first thought, upon seeing this last time (when the suspect test was up by mistake), my bug mono would have fun here. However, have seen a large amount of Tyranitar + lv 1 Aron teams. Will have to wait until the metagame has calmed down a bit, and people are less obsessed with 4x rock weakness things + rock types to check them...
 
SmashBrosBrawl said:
Sun is broken simply put. Now that sun teams no longer have to waste a teamslot with a spinner and without rocks to threaten fire theres no simply no way to deal with it without a dedicated counter. Baloon tran is the main answer to them (and to dragonite too) but other stuff like defensive moltres can be used, in particular to deal with shiftry. For whatever reason rain seems to have disappeared from the ladder even though the genies were benefited by the lack of rocks. Again i have yet to see hail.
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Pls tell me how much sun you play, god no wonder you had such a big misconception of volcarona, you think sun wastes a slot on spinner every time? I near never use spinner on my sun teams, unless it's sun stall, which then I'm using the spinner so I can blow away toxic spikes and not worry about custap skarm ruining my pokemon's HP by making them suffer SR + spikes. Sun is under appreciated, it was never bad at all, infact me and some other people think sun is the best weather out there WITH SR allowed, this boosts sun sure, but it doesn't change the way skilled sun players PLAY sun at all, I mainly still run my old sun team with sawsbuck + exceggutor to fuck with shit, +2 double edge and even unboosted double edge is recoiling saws (which is frail anyways) to the point where SR is irrelevant to it, eggy has giga drain for the SR damage anyways, etc. Overall, while sun might get a boost because fire sweepers can switch in easier, sun still isn't broken, I may be biased because I love sun, but trust me, if you know much to anything about sun, you know lack of SR doesn't make it broken, it just makes people being so stupid and stop saying sun is bad
 
Having so much fun in this ladder . volcarona and dragonite are countered with proper predictions ,
No longer needing a spinner is also great, on normal ladder getting rock is number 1 priority
doesn't matter what you sacrifice to get them up for most players at least
 
I have seen some spike users but honestly these games are so fast paced it doesnt matter much. You would do better by getting a bulk setup sweeper and attempt a sweep, then spend time setuping spikes. That said, skarmory is a massive bitch since sturdy is never broken by hazards and it does well against dd dnite so if you want spikes stacking thats your best bet.
 
I've been having some fun with a hail stall team on the ladder. I can't really speak for my record (some wins due to hax and some losses due to bad plays, but some legitimate games as well), but it's kind of silly. It consists of Abomasnow, Forretress, Sableye, Scolipede, Heatran, and Lanturn, with weird stuff like Gravity + Toxic Spikes and Snatch thrown in to the mix as well. I got a few ragequits and I've had some fun so it's all good :)

Try stall, guys, it's hilarious when it works on this ladder.
 
Shur, don't forget that you're a(n) HO player. Stealth Rock is amazing for offense and fucking atrocious for stall and other defensive styles.

And if it really were such a bullshit train of thought then Haunter and Ginga wouldn't have given the OK.

EDIT: I'm an offense player, too. I don't REALLY want to see it go, but coming down out of the heavens like that and declaring everyone who wants to see it gone mentally challenged is kinda bullshit.

So there's two topics, actually. http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/a-debating-thread-stealth-rocks.3482943/ http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/would-we-want-a-stealth-rock-suspect-test-read-196.3484392/
 
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Lord of Bays said:
Shur, don't forget that you're a(n) HO player. Stealth Rock is amazing for offense and fucking atrocious for stall and other defensive styles.
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Stealth Rock is one of the best weapons of stall, as it's one of the most easiest, reliable, and constant forms of passive damage they can use.

Also shurt, it's too early for a poll, the metagame has only been up for two days...

I have a feeling that a team with a couple of Tailwind users and 2-3 bulky choice monsters (CB Kyu-B, CB Gyara, Specs Modest Keldeo) is going to be very fun to use. Focus Sash Tailwind Flying or Levitate Pokemon are also amazing insurance measures.

Oh and CB Gyarados with Avalanche has been pretty good so far. OHKOes DDNite through Multiscale and tanks the +1 Outrage like a boss, checks Volcarona, and OHKOes the many Kyu-B that like to switch into him with Stone Edge.
 
All I know is that it's such a guaranteed way to punish switching that it really does hurt the playstyle that switches the most: Stall. I suppose I should have been more clear in saying that Stealth Rock on your side of the field is infinitely less devastating when you're playing offense as opposed to stall.
 
As someone who plays stall exclusively, I find the absence of SR has made the style 10 times more enjoyable, to the point where I can't imagine going back to the old meta-game after playing this one. It creates so much more freedom when choosing Pokemon, for one. An OU rain stall team used to feel like it built itself, and the need to minimize entry hazard damage (because stall requires constant switching) was a major part of that. Stealth Rock does not help stall anywhere near as much as offensive teams, because most SR weak Pokemon that tend to be used are the kind meant to come in once, often after another team mate has gone down, and do as much damage as possible before falling.

Spikes still exists, but is less useful to offensive teams for several reasons. Far fewer Pokemon learn it, and the ones that do tend to be more defensive, requiring a noticeable sacrifice in immediate power to run; it also takes multiple turns to maximize its effect, requiring a slow down in the pace of battle as well. Even with all 3 layers down, far many more Pokemon are immune to it, so the benefit of those 3 turns spent is often more ambiguous. My problem with SR is not so much that it's "broken" as it is too much benefit for too little effort, both in building the team and playing it.
 
I can't really say I'm convinced by the use of very dedicated spikes leads like Custap Skarm. They are designed to set up 2 layers of spikes, and honestly, the second layer of spikes is just not very good. The first layer does 12.5% damage, and the second layer does 4%. Unless you have some prospect of setting up a third layer, which is twice as good as the second, I would question that it is worth bothering. You're probably better off using something that sets up one layer and goes on the offensive, or using a proper defensive spiker and trying to set up 3 layers over the course of the game.
 
I'm personally interested in Weavile a bit. While ol' Mamoswine is still extremely good and as such will probably be the better choice for most teams the ability to outspeed Dnite (Although watch out for Espeed) and Ability to Pursuit trap might make it's niche a bit larger. Of course, this is just theorymonning, but still something I might try out.

Also I think that choice users with Levitate/Flying will be fantastic in this meta. With no residual damage aside from Sand/Hail, they will probably be able to have more lasting power than most other choice users (Even if some grounded ones like Keld will still be popular because of how strong they are anyway.)

Also don't use Zard unless it's like a choice set with Solar Power in the sun. Anything else Moltres does much, much better.
 
Magolor said:
Also don't use Zard unless it's like a choice set with Solar Power in the sun. Anything else Moltres does much, much better.
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I dunno about you but SubSD/SubBD set @ Flying Gem/Salac Berry is pretty awesome with Flare Blitz+Acrobatics/EQ
 
I like this metagame a lot so far. Stall feels a lot more viable without SR being everywhere. I've been using a rain stall team with sub roost Moltres and it's worked really well. Though it's become more difficult to deal with dragonite, I feel like, as a whole, the balance between the viability of defensive and offensive playstyles is a lot closer to equilibrium than standard OU. I find it a little absurd that there are a few people who are staunchly against a stealth rock-less metagame based on their day 1 impressions. We have no idea how this metagame is going to develop. In the end, it may turn out that this metagame is worse and that team building is even more pigeon-holed than in standard. On the other hand, it may turn out to be a much more balanced metagame where there's a reason to run something other than Rain offense and Sand balance.
 
Soul Fly said:
I dunno about you but SubSD/SubBD set @ Flying Gem/Salac Berry is pretty awesome with Flare Blitz+Acrobatics/EQ
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To be honest I never thought of a Sub-Salac set. That is another set I might try out.

Also I'm in the camp that's actually quite enjoying it. The reason some might find it boring is that people are getting a bit too curious in trying out things and as such and so their team has like 4 pokemon weak to rocks.

I am trying out Bulky Cloyster as a possible way to tackle Dnite and sash users while still having spikes and/or rapid spin support. It is not working terribly well but I'm trying to find a proper EV spread to help it do its job better. Then again, ice is a shitty typing no matter what but I might as well try.
 
So far I'm really enjoying this ladder, I remember hearing about it a while ago and have been excitedly awaiting it ever since.

My first thought was rain, because that would allow me to use Agility Articuno, a poke I've had a ton of success in NU with. Throw on Raincarona and Banded Dnite, and you have a pretty common looking team on this ladder. [Dnite, Volc, Underused Threat]. I do love the diversity it promotes, and its cool seeing how much of a theat stuff like Yanmega and Moltres can be without half their HP being stripped away. (On the topic of Moltres, it has such an underrated defensive typing, it's delicious). Something feels missing on the ladder though, that small amount of damage on every entry is actually a very integral part of our game. If one were to want to balance it out a touch, maybe halving the damage they do on entry so that they go back to being set up to break sashes, and not kill pokemon would be cool - but Gamefreak has more than likely forgotten about a minor move implemented in 2007.

Overall I'm really enjoying the ladder, I think it's a fantastic idea that we tried it out before gen vi just to see what it's like.
 
Tornadus is a fucking monster in this meta. Simply being able to switch him in whenever you want makes him so, so, so much more useful. Also, whoever said scarf Terrakion was the best scarfer is probably right. He outspeeds and OHKOs everything that people are using (Tornadus, Volc, Moltres, Dnite if multiscale is broken), even if those pokes are +1.

I saw a few custap Forrys, but they were pretty meh. Spikes are kind of annoying but not worth wasting a team slot imo unless you're playing a defensive team.
 
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