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Super Smash Bros 4 (Spoilers ITT)

If the majority is silent, how can you notice them?

Aaaand another game developer falls victim to this logical fallacy to shake criticism. Silent majority is possibly the stupidest thing ever, as it's an argument ad populum (already a bad argument) without the factual grounds for the populum part. Go figure considering it's a term popularized by Richard Nixon.
 
@ Von: Sakurai's logic appears sound from here.

1) We all know—and Sakurai knows—that melee appeals to a more hardcore fighting game audience, while Brawl appeals to casuals.

2) We all know—and Sakurai knows—that the more hardcore players are going to be the ones who make entire message boards about a game to talk about it on the internet (and that on those message boards, they'll be saying how much better Melee is).

3) We all know—and Sakurai knows—that with ANY game, the number of hardcore fans is going to be far smaller than the number of casuals.

with those three points in mind, it is fair to say that there will be a silent majority who prefers Brawl's mechanics. (Even if we allow that 30% of casuals prefer melee, i'd still take that bet). Whether or not he can provide a statistic, it's a reasonable assertion.

(I do understand where your concerns are coming from, but i'm not about to let this incident shake my faith in him).
 
I don't even get why anybody has to try to please one crowd over the other in the first place. Casuals just want to play with their favorite characters and have cool stages/items while the hardcore gamers want good mechanics (as well as the same thing the casuals want). These interests don't clash, what's wrong with just appealing to the fanbase?
 
Melee Mewtwo said:
I don't even get why anybody has to try to please one crowd over the other in the first place. Casuals just want to play with their favorite characters and have cool stages/items while the hardcore gamers want good mechanics (as well as the same thing the casuals want). These interests don't clash, what's wrong with just appealing to the fanbase?
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In general mechanics that appeal to more hardcore players make the game harder for more casual players to get into, and i think this is where most of the issues lie.
 
Imanalt said:
In general mechanics that appeal to more hardcore players make the game harder for more casual players to get into, and i think this is where most of the issues lie.
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But how much of an issue is it, really? You can give Melee to any group of four people in any skill range, and they'll still have a blast, regardless of Melee's more complicated mechanics. People are still having fun, and its appeal to casuals lies in the all-star line up of characters that so many people grew up with.

If you ask me, Smash was a series that already pleased everybody up until Brawl came out. The opinions on that one game are so divided compared to the rest.

E: So yeah Sakurai's argument was pretty weak. It's like he got forever traumatized when he found out what others turned Melee into, and now he tries to avoid its type of design with each installment. He's like that kid that brings a toy for the park to share with others, and then get pissed when the other kids don't use it the way he wants them to.
 
Imanalt said:
In general mechanics that appeal to more hardcore players make the game harder for more casual players to get into, and i think this is where most of the issues lie.
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While I guess I agree with this notion in general, I don't think applies to SSB simply because the way smash is played competitively is far different from the way it's played casually. When I think of playing smash more casually, I think of four player free for alls with items on high on wackier stages. When I think of playing smash more competitively, I think of 1v1 or 2v2 stock matches on quiet stages to see who's the best. In a casual match, little advanced techniques seem almost irrelevent; wave dashing's spacing and mobility boosts seem underwhelming when you have bob ombs to throw around and two other players to deal with.

I'm on a phone so I can't communicate what I'm saying very easily, but I agree with Melee Mewtwo. Utilizing advanced techniques makes little difference in the craziness of a free for all where an item spawning is far more relevant.
 
I hate anything like what's going on in this thread but whatever; the key is to make things easy to learn, hard to master. That way everyone can do everything but the skill ceiling isn't any lower. Wavedashing? Instead of having to short hop and immediately airdodge diagonally into the ground, just make it so that you press a button and point the control stick in the direction you want to go. L-Cancelling? That's an arbitrary technical barrier that could easily just be replaced by universally lower landing lag at the cost of absolutely nothing at higher level play. DACUS and Glide Toss are already covered by the Wavedash thing. I don't think there's a single AT that can't be made easier to do or made automatic with zero cost to high level play, so there's no reason to make things hard to do.
 
Pwnemon said:
1) We all know—and Sakurai knows—that melee appeals to a more hardcore fighting game audience, while Brawl appeals to casuals.

2) We all know—and Sakurai knows—that the more hardcore players are going to be the ones who make entire message boards about a game to talk about it on the internet (and that on those message boards, they'll be saying how much better Melee is).

3) We all know—and Sakurai knows—that with ANY game, the number of hardcore fans is going to be far smaller than the number of casuals.
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We all know-and you know-that the hardcore players are going to be the ones playing it for years, while the casuals put it down and maybe dust it off for parties.

Of course we don't all know that, or any of your points. It's just a bit of simple conjecture. It makes some sense, but it's not a fact. Indeed, as a person who kinda likes Brawl more (but I see why it's so hard to defend), I've come under fire for this position IRL. None of my friends, or the groups of people that I interact with when I regularly travel, prefer Brawl over Melee (though a fair few prefer Smash64). None of these people are competitive fighters, or people who frequent smashboards. Not everyone who prefers melee is as obnoxious as is characterized here. Again this isn't a fact, it's a personal experience, but it illustrates why the silent majority can be one of the douchiest fallacies out there. Look no further than IGN's use of it for proof.

It would have been enough to say that some people like Brawl. And that even if they were a minority, their interests should be taken account for. But we didn't like Brawl because of tripping, or the power imbalance, or even particularly the slow speed. We liked having more characters than ever, more stages, more music. You can appeal to both groups easily.
 
Alright, new topic; Final smashes for Megaman and Villager. I'm thinking Megama'n going to turn into Hyper Megaman from Marvel vs. Capcom and Villager...I dunno, Resetti bitches at them until they commit suicide?
 
casual and competitive, to me, seem to be attitudes, but a well made game is not an attitude

I want a well made game, that both has depth and is simple, or at least is simple with a good bit variety
 
Alright folks, this thread is garnering pretty huge attention, so I've decided to start an IRC channel for us to discuss this stuff with a bit more ease. We've had a smash irc channel in the past, but it grew dead around 2009 so I think a fresh start would be neat. Join #ssb if you want to shoot the breeze about the new game or some other portion of the series!
 
Basically, Sakurai is appealing to a false dichotomy between skill-based mechanics and fun-based mechanics. Even luck factors can be made skill-based (see: poker). I mean, sure, with people playing online, skill gaps can become a problem, but many other competitive games have matchmaking systems to make up for that. I don't see why we couldn't have had Brawl with Melee-like mechanics. In fact, competitive Brawl is now demonstrating how flawed Sakurai's approach is.

I'm of the camp that advanced techniques should be made easier, but not removed. L-canceling can be replaced by a cut to overall aerial lag. Wavedashing can be replaced by some other cool method of movement.
 
TBH I think most of the complaining about Melee comes down to wavedashing, a mechanic that only existed because you had an 8-directional dodge that I think Brawl rightly removed in favor of a realistic momentum-based dodge. If tripping didn't suck so hard mechanically I don't think there'd be nearly the split there was between the game communities.

Sans tripping, I liked Brawl a great deal more because they changed the speed up and it wasn't just a modified fighting game with a guaranteed level of knockback for most attacks that led to so many melee unbreakable/predictable combos. There were still a few floating around, but nearly to the degree Melee had them.
 
Deck Knight said:
TBH I think most of the complaining about Melee comes down to wavedashing, a mechanic that only existed because you had an 8-directional dodge that I think Brawl rightly removed in favor of a realistic momentum-based dodge. If tripping didn't suck so hard mechanically I don't think there'd be nearly the split there was between the game communities.

Sans tripping, I liked Brawl a great deal more because they changed the speed up and it wasn't just a modified fighting game with a guaranteed level of knockback for most attacks that led to so many melee unbreakable/predictable combos. There were still a few floating around, but nearly to the degree Melee had them.
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I literally disagree with everything you just said.

1. Melee isn't defined by wavedashing. It's defined by its good gameplay choices and acceptable character balanced, most of which was removed in Brawl. Wavedashing was merely an advanced movement option, and the game would largely play the same without it.

2. Tripping is the LEAST of Brawl's issues. It's riddled with exploits (chain grabs and infinites) has poor character balance and baffling bad game design choices (Why can you air dodge out of hitstun?)These issues aren't even exclusive to high level play either. Even low level players have to deal with DDD's chaingrab (which wouldn't exist if the game didn't bar you from "direction influencing" weak moves) and Metaknight's general stupidity. The removal of combos didn't even make the game "easier" or more "accessible." It ended up favoring characters who still had combo strings (Metaknight) or cheesy chain grabs / zoning game (Falco) while simultaneously limiting characters like Mario (who is pretty limited to begin with in Brawl)
 
No fucking Melee vs. Brawl, we are not losing the thread to this putrid rotting carrion.

We've talked a lot about what new characters we want to see and which old ones we want/don't want to return. What about stages? Personally I'd love for Delfino and Lylat Cruise to come back, those were my favorites aside from Battlefield/Final Destination/Smashville. I'd love a new F-Zero stage, although they'd have to make it the size of Brawl's Port Town but make it function more like Melee's Mute City (ex. not being able to get hit by the cars while you're on platforms, stage transformations aren't randomized, etc.). If they bring back 75m, Hanenbow, or New Pork City I will be so mad.
 
Deck Knight said:
If tripping didn't suck so hard mechanically I don't think there'd be nearly the split there was between the game communities.
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I wouldn't say this, for the same reason people get put off by something like Gen II.

There are a lot of people who dislike defense vs defense, probably the majority. Long, drawn out stall wars basically compare to Brawl at medium and high level play, and the general inability to play strictly offensively really turns a lot of people off.

Of course, there are people that enjoy the generally slow pace of the games, just how there are many that enjoy Gen II OU. But I'd equate something like Melee more with Gen IV OU, it's fast paced, but not super fast paced (compared to other Fighters, or in Pokemon's case, other Metagames). Offense and defense are both very viable depending on the character, and the stong dynamics of the game generally appeals to the wider competitive crowd.

2c on that
 
M. Rock said:
POKEFLOATS 2, COME ON NINTENDO YOU KNOW THIS ONE'S LONG OVERDUE!
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THIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIS. Pokefloats was by far the best gimmick stage, it would be perfectly fine if shit like this didn't happen (the Wobbuffet part, Wooper could've been teched).

Also, I'd love to see a stage based off of Bowser's Castle. It has been long overdue, there have been twelve Mario stages (not counting spin-off franchises) and there has yet to be one incarnation of that thing that is in almost every single game.
 
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