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Super Smash Bros. Brawl: Character and Tier Discussion

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FAir is too slow and BAir will be beaten by MK's disjointedness, Dedede is just protected vertically by his lingering up and down aerials.

Obviously it matters that MK can't be chainthrown seeing as how it's D3's fastest and easiest way to rack up damage. ;/ FTilt alone won't win the matchup, MK can hover in his blind spot above it and properly spaced FAir will beat his UTilt. The only plus side for Dedede, besides being relatively safe from rising UAir combos, is his massive weight advantage and virtual immunity to being gimped.

Mia said:
Actually, if you use air dodging correctly, it pretty much is a single technique trump card to aerial combat, and it's one of the main aspects as to why Brawl is so frustrating and campy for competitive players.
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Actually, air dodging is like sidestepping and is every bit as punishable by slight delays (or mistimes), low-lag attacks, or lingering hitboxes. ;[ Besides which, it offers the exact same advantage to every character so it would have no impact on Snake's tier placement. (Do air dodge startup and recovery times differ between characters like rolls/sidesteps?) His air game is mediocre at best, period. He can be challenged in the air because there's little risk of punishment, perhaps a weak front-end BAir but usually he's just air dodging. He has a hard time fighting "campier" characters with superior ground control because he lacks the ability to approach through the air. And who cares if he knocks you upward, he can't do anything to you up there except spam the mortar.

It's a heavily exploitable part of Snake's game which I believe will knock him down a peg in due time. In contrast, the only real weakness of MK or G&W, their weight, can't really be turned against them in combat. Maybe there's a metagaming argument here, if MK and G&W are otherwise the two best characters but Snake is one of the tougher matchups for either one...
 
Yoshi King said:
There's some stupid ongoing rivalry between east and west coast players in the states, frankly I don't see why it's continued to this day. Why can't everyone be like us Canadians and get along with one another ;(
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West SIIIIIIIIIDE

Seriously, there's a rivalry between the two? I thought it was just tourney players vs. casual players, because casual players are little bitches who don't want to admit that they suck and refuse to get better, then they try and cover it with "No, tourneyfags suck because they don't play Spear Pillar 4-player with all items on high!!!11!!"

I want to discuss Wario now. I was reading on the Ganon boards that Wario is a tough match-up for him, due to the amazing amount of aerial control he has on his jumps and aerials. Having never played a Wario, I set a computer to Lv. 9, and promptly beat him with jabs and Dairs. What I don't get is how Wario can be considered such a threat when all of his moves seem to have an enormous amount of lag behind them, and they have very limited hitboxes.
 
Cooper said:
West SIIIIIIIIIDE

Seriously, there's a rivalry between the two? I thought it was just tourney players vs. casual players, because casual players are little bitches who don't want to admit that they suck and refuse to get better, then they try and cover it with "No, tourneyfags suck because they don't play Spear Pillar 4-player with all items on high!!!11!!"

I want to discuss Wario now. I was reading on the Ganon boards that Wario is a tough match-up for him, due to the amazing amount of aerial control he has on his jumps and aerials. Having never played a Wario, I set a computer to Lv. 9, and promptly beat him with jabs and Dairs. What I don't get is how Wario can be considered such a threat when all of his moves seem to have an enormous amount of lag behind them, and they have very limited hitboxes.
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I would never recommend fighting a level 9 computer to see if a character is a threat or not. Wario's talent lies in his air game. He has aerial maneuverability rivals that of Jigglypuff. Most of his aerials have a nice use approaching, killing, or edgeguarding. His down air has a multi hit effect and is nice for approaching and shield-poking, His Bair, Fair, and Nair are all nice for edge guarding, and his clap kills and juggles.

Don't forget the nuclear fart though. It instantly takes you up about 40% and kills often...

His recovery is also insane. He has his bike to jump off of, his third jump, even the wario waft if you've charged it long enough.
 
I play the Lv. 9s because I've seen 7s do horrible, horrible things that lead me to believe they are not a threat (one walked away from me when it could've done any number of things while I was in shield lag).
 
Wutt, i just come see this thread, and my two mains (Pika/Ganon) and my favorite (Link) are horribly low, guess i´ll share my point of view:

Ganon - Like Smart players said, he got a bad rep. from melee, though he has improved a lot, For Starters, he is not, a character you can juggle with easily, except at really low %, though i dont know how the fck youre gonna send midair one of the heavier chars in the game at low %, and if he does a Full Hop or 2 Jumps... is clearly an example of a horrible Ganon player, Next, Ganon CANT rely on combos (in case you find more than 2) or going Bersek attacking all he cans to win lol, since all his attacks except for F-Special can be shielded and then your opponent easily grabs you, you need to play safe and smart in order to win, Overall i think Ganon is underrated horribly, such as Nidoking is in pkmn xD, and i would say Ganon is easily Mid Tier at least.

Pikachu - Da Electric Rat lol, i started using this thing some time ago, the point of using it was simple, spam thunderjolt, if they aproach use DSmash and if they are midair thunder them to death, it was rather easy and i still think its the easiest character to get easy KOs against ppl new to online game, though experienced players... laugh at those tactics lol, Pikachu is a Fast character, can perform sweet combos and has got Nice Ko Moves, i think its an all attack character, like G&W the point of using pikachu is to attack...attack...and keep attacking, QAC if youre in a bad position and then keep attacking, it also got 2 nice Chaingrabs this gen, theyre not as godly as Falco´s but they are good too, as for pikachu i´d say it is High tier definitely.

Link - Well, i used to main Link in melee, but he got somehow slow this gen and more heavy, overall the playing style is the same, Grab them, Spamm projectiles and use Jab/Tilt attacks until they are at high percentages to have a chance of getting a Ko, i think the worst thing that happened to Link in Brawl, is that his DAir got totally laggy, in melee the lag was well, not too bad, but now, its horrible, though Link will remain a low tier, but cant be said to be one of the worst chars of the game, he faces the same problem as characters like Sonic, No Ko Potencial, and lacks speed, but its still and will be my favorite video game character lol, LOZ Ftw =D

Overall, i dont think theres something as tiers were you can say, o he´s using Ganon, im Falco haha, i´ll surely win, this is a fighting game, experience and skillz are everything that matters here to have a higher chance of winning.

Of course there are tiers, but cant be defined by usage in tournaments or things like that, like its been said, Snake, MK, and Pit are noob magnets, that totally ruins a usage tier.
 
Um, I don't understand this "Ganon has a bad rep from Melee" thing. Ganon was pretty decent in Melee. He's worse in Brawl.

Being a noob magnet hardly affects a usage tier considering only the top 8 finishes are used for that list. A "noob" isn't going to be winning the tournament. Otherwise, Roy and Link would have been top tier in Melee.
 
Ganon - Like Smart players said, he got a bad rep. from melee, though he has improved a lot
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As a ganon main, myself, I think you have a lot to learn... First off, ganon was high tier in melee. He was actually fairly good. In brawl.... er... seriously, where are the advantageous matchups? He has next to no matchups that actually favor him. Because of this, it will be near impossible for him to make it any higher than low tier, at best.

Now, I like playing ganon, but I'm not naive enough to think that my main is awesome or whatever, because I know he isn't. I realize my own character's limitations, and I think it's about time you realize the same. It would be wise to watch this video: http://youtube.com/watch?v=ltqgP-Xgceg

In fact, anyone who hasn't seen that video before should watch it. Although I'm sure some people here are already aware of what that video teaches, acquiring a mindset to accept your character's weaknesses is something that eludes many players.
 
Calciphoce said:
I dunno, I don't see what Dorf has over CF at all, making him a lower placement.
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80% of Ganondorf's attacks can KO you somewhere between 90-110%. Ganondorf's ftilt has huge knockback that goes horizontal and downward, has IASA frames for another ftilt, and comes out fairly fast anyway. Ganondorf also gets the most damage on a single hit of any character. While other characters are doing 5-7% on their attacks, Ganondorf hits for 10-12% each. He has IASA frames on USmash that can go into anything. For all intents and purposes, Ganondorf immediately after USmash is the same as Ganondorf standing idle, except that USmash can actually kill an opponent or combo them at low %s.

He also got a wide variety of move improvements, including extra height on Dark Dive, a bigger shockwave on Wizard's Foot, Flame Choke >>>>>> Gerudo Dragon, and the vacuum on the Nuke Foot(utilt) works well with the surprisingly huge range and low ending lag. I even managed to catch Dunk in it once or twice because he underestimated the range.

In short, Ganondorf has a nearly perfect moveset for doing what Ganondorf specializes in: punishing mistakes. No single move on Ganondorf is useless, bar perhaps Warlock Punch, which you could still use to nuke from the center of FD if you broke your opponents shield. Reverse Warlock Punch kills at like 30%.

Captain Falcon has a moveset in Brawl that would have been better in Melee. Ganondorf is actually a threat, whereas Falcon now has trouble landing the knee, and as surprising and deadly as a well placed Reverse Falcon Punch is, Falcon otherwise lacks reliable kill moves that you can control well.

I'm not saying Ganondorf doesn't have weaknesses. As a matter of fact, his weaknesses are so stark and obvious that you should give up playing him if you don't seriously want to work on them. Specifically, Ganondorf sucks at rushing opponents. His approaches require mindgames. He is prone to projectile spamming, but at low %'s the knockback isn't noticable so he can still get an attack in. Air dodging and Spot dodging effectively are core components of GDorf's game.

If I have to qualify GDorf as anything, he's a n00b killer. Any properly skilled Ganondorf player can beat the snot out of any player that doesn't sufficiently practice with their mains or secondaries (or gets careless). He does too much damage too fast, and can KO at a moment's notice. Every single one of his moves has a practical use in a match, ber perhaps Warlock Punch again.

In summary: Ganondorf uses the entirety of his moveset well. Captain Falcon has incredible difficulty utilizing his.
 
Quick Question to you Ganondorf Mains/Users:

Does he have ANY favorable matchup? >___>
I don't think that chart does him justice.
But I can't think of a matchup where he gets the big end of the straw.
 
Mr Escalator said:
Quick Question to you Ganondorf Mains/Users:

Does he have ANY favorable matchup? >___>
I don't think that chart does him justice.
But I can't think of a matchup where he gets the big end of the straw.
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Ganondorf versus Mario is pretty good for Ganon I'd say. Maybe even versus Sheik, though don't trust me on this one.
 
Mr Escalator said:
Quick Question to you Ganondorf Mains/Users:

Does he have ANY favorable matchup? >___>
I don't think that chart does him justice.
But I can't think of a matchup where he gets the big end of the straw.
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I don't want to comment on that because I've never been able to guage the skill my opponents have with their pick.

The only thing DeDeDe can do to Ganondorf is the chaingrab. Otherwise Ganondorf has similar range, only his attacks are faster. DeDeDe is also so fat that you can always follow up Flame Choke with an Ftilt. Most of DDD's kill moves are slower than GDorfs, and honestly, Waddle Dee Spam doesn't tend to do a damn thing unless you chuck out a Gordo. Maybe the DeDeDe's I faced weren't top level skill, but I've never had any problems taking out the fat duck.

I've also had few problems taking out Ike these days, because again: Ganondorf's attacks are not slow, and most have IASA frames. Only Warlock Punch and Nuke Kick have much startup lag, and Flame Choke has a pretty good risk-return ratio for its startup lag.

But from that chart it looked like he only views "favorable matchups" as who can spam their projectile best and who has the most disjointed hitboxes, minus MetaKnight whose Mach Tornado is the most anti-projectile special ever. Most of Ganondorf's tilts are "clankable" with an opponents similar tilt, only GDorf tends to send his out faster.

But again, this is from someone used to playing in Wifi lag, since that's almost exclusively where my competition comes from. Unless Mass Madness turns into an all-Melee event, I'm going to test GDorf against my competition there in a lagless enviroment, since Lv7's/Lv 9's are ridiculously easy to shred.
 
Deck Knight said:
The only thing DeDeDe can do to Ganondorf is the chaingrab. Otherwise Ganondorf has similar range, only his attacks are faster. DeDeDe is also so fat that you can always follow up Flame Choke with an Ftilt. Most of DDD's kill moves are slower than GDorfs, and honestly, Waddle Dee Spam doesn't tend to do a damn thing unless you chuck out a Gordo. Maybe the DeDeDe's I faced weren't top level skill, but I've never had any problems taking out the fat duck.
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Unfortunately I'm the only one out of my friends who plays both D^3 and Ganondorf, so this is strictly theory.

I think that, firstly, saying the only thing that D^3 can do to Ganondorf is chain grab sells the chain grab a bit short. He'll take Ganondorf from one side of the stage to the other and off the edge, somewhere he's significantly weaker, without breaking a sweat, racking up some sweet damage along the way. The chain grab on Ganondorf is nothing to be scoffed at.

Secondly, the Waddle Dee spam. I just can't see how Ganondorf can get through it without getting grabbed. Which puts him in a bad place. The Waddle Dees control space really, really well in that range a bit further than D^3's f-tilt can reach.
 
Cooper said:
I mean, basing a tier off of how much a character is used as opposed to how good the character is is somewhat ridiculous. It becomes a popularity contest at that point. If competitive Pokemon tiers were done like that, Blissey, Garchomp, and Gengar would all be Uber hands down.
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Do you think people pick Chun Li in Third Strike because she is hot? Or Yun because his "hoos" are funny? Maybe they pick Ken because of Evo Moment #37? No sir, they pick them because they are the best of the bunch.

I am sorry but I could not let this go unsaid.
 
Sonic is high low or low mid, no doubt about it.

Sucks that I main him.
 
Deck Knight said:
Maybe the DeDeDe's I faced weren't top level skill, but I've never had any problems taking out the fat duck.
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Haha, that's not what I remember from when I faced your Ganondorf as D3 . . . I think you even called me a campy aerial something, which was funny, whatever that meant.

Edit: Penguin.
 
Lucario is pretty good currently actually. So is Marth and Snake which explains why they are high tiered, but I'm just started Smash Brothers.
 
Yeah I knew about that, I think it was mentioned in this thread before. Does it work on every character?
 
Not every character. Some characters escape at earlier percentages, and some can escape the chain grab immediately. Alternatively with those characters you can still dthrow -> Nair/Dair/SHDL

Learn to Short Hop Laser/Retreat Short Hop Laser/Short Hop Double Laser. There's no lag from those moves if you perform them properly, and you can immediately combo from it, so it's rarely punishable at close range.
 
Alright, I have decided to pick up R.O.B as my main.
I've checked smashboards and stuff but I was wondering if anyone here knows anything about him.
 
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