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Super Smash Bros. Brawl: Character and Tier Discussion

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A chaingrab is not "unwinnable". You just don't get grabbed. It's like saying falcon punch is unwinnable because if you get hit you die. Though admittedly a chaingrab is a lot easier to be put ito than a roaming falcon punch.
 
it is quite difficult to avoid getting grabbed by a good dedede. his grab itself is just really freaking good.

by quite difficult i mean pretty much impossible if you are forced to approach and put yourself in a position where ddd can grab you without much difficulty (dk, mario, luigi, and bowser are and samus has zair and projectiles).

regardless

i'm psyched for this tier list. i hope pokemon trainer gets a bottom tier placing. :)
 
DiamondDust said:
Do you guys think dedede's infinite chaingrab should be banned? My stance is that it shouldn't be banned. It doesn't overcentralize the metagame, which is eventually why anything is ever banned.
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Unlike pokemon, centralization is not a factor to determine bans in smash. If this were the case, we would have banned Melee Marth, who held an 83% success rate through MLG sponsored tournaments.
 
my first unholy attempt at tier prediction, complete with fusions. umby says i placed myself at #37 on the list ):

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=6227526&postcount=5167

my second, slightly holier attempt:

S: MK, Snake
A: Falco, DDD, Diddy, Marth, GW, Wario
B: Olimar, ICs, Lucario, Pikachu, Kirby, ROB, Peach
C: ZSS, DK, Pit, Toon Link, Wolf, Zelda/Sheik, Bowser, Fox
D: Ike, Sonic, Luigi, Ness, PT, Mario, Yoshi, Lucas
E: Samus, Link, The Dorf, The Puff, The Failcon

not gonna lie...i like my first list better
 
Thorns: D3 can standing infinite 4 characters + a walking CG on Bowser.

Sonic is trash and he's too fast I can't control him.

After playing a Falcon main, I feel that he's a bit better than Gdorf. It's quite easier to autocancel all of his aerials, he has some combo ability with Uair and Nair, a better Fair, his Up+b grabs you out of Super Armor(while both characters can do this, Gdorf's upb has abysmal range and kill power), a useful jab cancel, more range from stutter stepping and hyphen dashing, and generally better specials(besides Murder Choke for tech chasing).


Besides moveset comparisons, which mean little, CF has no IMPOSSIBLE matchups. Gdorf is hurt badly by fast, ranged projectiles(Olimar, Spacies, R.O.B.), CGers, MT, and Shiek's Dtilt.
 
DiamondDust said:
Do you guys think dedede's infinite chaingrab should be banned?
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Should it be banned? Beats me. Will it be banned? No.

I say that because the community is simply too divided on the issue for it to be outright banned. The reason in turn for that is that people's take on the subject really just comes down to their own personal view on it. Both sides have logical reasons for their stance.... and neither side can effectively argue with the other because they're coming from two completely different perspectives.





EDIT: on a completely different subject the new tier list is up: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=214428

They should have used Steeler's tier names ;).
 
ahh...Falco in 3rd place, Yoshi even worse than he was before. If only Samus would be in the F tier and G&W would be above D3, all would be right with the world.

But in seriousness, what the deuce is up with having TWO god tiers? That was a silly way to end the dillema of what to do with MK/Snake's placement. Snake is definitely not good enough to merrit his own seperate tier.

The actual placings of the characters are much better than before though (still with a few minor exceptions, but that's to be expected), so good on you guys for that.
 
I think we can come to two definitive conclusions from this tier list:

1. Lucas and Ness are in fact the same character

2. Fox is satan

















L.O.L.

But seriously, this looks to be a pretty solid representation of where the community currently stands. That and the peach main in me is pleased to see peach go up 5 spaces ^____^.
 
HotGarbage said:
But seriously, this looks to be a pretty solid representation of where the community currently stands. That and the MK main in me is pleased to see MK is not only one, but TWO tiers seperated from the top tier ^____^.
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Fix'd.

But you are right: Lucas and Ness are officially the same character. They even got the same score of 4.50. I suspect the reason that Lucas was put above Ness was that for the only move they differ in, PK Freeze is better than PK Flash.

SmashBrosMike is truly a visionary.
 
Thunderhorse said:
But you are right: Lucas and Ness are officially the same character.
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EarthboundBoy.png


EarthboundBoy agrees.

I'm also still a little skeptical about Ike being not in the low tier area. I wouldn't mind if Mario and him switched places..
 
Phiddlesticks said:
Wow, Bowser sounds like a really good character. I think I might start playing as him now.

Also, you say that Olimar is "virtually hard" to gimp once you've played enough Meta Knights, but isn't that mainly from your opponents being predictable with their gimp attempts? Olimar has a bad recovery that is easily gimpable Meta Knight is one of the best characters at gimping (second only to Mario imo). The fact that the Meta Knights you play are being predictable doesn't change anything about the matchup.
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Mario is better at gimping than Mk? I didn't even know Mario's try to gimp, especially with his awful recovery.

Let me rephrase the gimping. Think of how an Mk would gimp you. They would need to first get you off stage. How would they go about getting you off stage? Most likely by means of a downsmash or shuttle loop. Yes, a shuttle loop hitting you at 50-60+% is probably the end of you provided you don't whistle cancel it. A downsmash is a bigger problem, but imo, must easier to predict and avoid. If you are hit far enough offstage with a dsmash, they might chase after you. His down aerial and forward aerials can be airdodged, and you can tether back on since you will probably be closer to the stage than Mk is after he misses an attack. Or, many players tend to hop off the edge at just the right time (this applies with anyone) to avoid getting spiked by the pikmin chain. However, once you pass the point where your chain can spike them, hence them being off the edge, you can tether back and still make it. Point is, you can usually wait for them to pop off the edge before recovering and still make it back. I do this all the time, and in a 3 stock game, this will usually work atleast once.
 
ColinJF said:
Moves don't have a "priority" as such. Hitbox clashing occurs when the two hitboxes deal within 10 damage of each other. Other priority interactions are a result of one move outranging another, invincibility or super armour frames, the grab/attack trading mechanic, and so on.
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Hitbox clashing only happens with ground moves and grounded specials, never anything in the air.
 
Lucas and Ness play different strategies. Sure they have the same moves but all of their aerials are entirely different and the moves are different. Ness has more power but his specials are not as good as Lucas. Where as for Lucas, he has better specials and can do more advance techniques. Who ever thought of this idea of Ness and Lucas being in the same rank is an idiot.
 
Everything was done in votes on a scale of 1 to 15. Ness and Lucas tied on pure coincidence. They were not ranked in comparison to each other.

There is enough of a standard deviation to warrant a separate tier, so that's what we did.
 
Surgo said:
Hitbox clashing only happens with ground moves and grounded specials, never anything in the air.
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Not entirely true.

However, aerials don't clash with other aerials, or with most normals in the air. Aerials can clash with select normals in the air (e.g. Ness's up smash) and select aerials can clash with normals on the ground (e.g. the last hit of the turtle).

Clashing in the air happens all the time though. For example, try Game & Watch's turtle against an aerial tornado; it will clash.
 
sup dudars ??

Olimarman said:
Mario is better at gimping than Mk? I didn't even know Mario's try to gimp, especially with his awful recovery.
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What? Of course Mario will try to gimp, his Cape alone is a pretty good gimping tool. He can't stray too far from the ledge, much like Marth, but that doesn't mean he isn't good at edgeguarding.

Olimar is a joke to gimp and only precise Whistle Armoring through an opponent's gimp attempts will actually save you. As far as waiting until the last possible moment to tether, opponents with good recovery usually don't even chance it and just eat the hit to ensure you die... How the hell did he get placed so high on the new tier list anyway?

Surgo said:
"Moves don't have a 'priority' as such. Hitbox clashing occurs when the two hitboxes deal within 10 damage of each other. Other priority interactions are a result of one move outranging another, invincibility or super armour frames, the grab/attack trading mechanic, and so on."

Hitbox clashing only happens with ground moves and grounded specials, never anything in the air.
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Glide attacks also clash, and I do believe Specials do whether or not they're grounded. (It may depend on the Special; I know for a fact the Spacies' Side-B Specials can sometimes clash and pass through attacks during off-stage recovery.)

Some attacks seem to have wonky priority regardless of the actual "science" behind the matter, though. Sonic gets a reputation for crappy priority because he has little in the way of disjointed attacks. Ness has great "priority" because all his aerials have super-gay huge hitboxes that surround his otherwise tiny limbs (except his head). And then there's Snake.
 
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