Suspect Test Process Stage Three - Version 2.0!

[lordkira]

Not really.
The thing is garchomp is obviously the most used in the ladder atm and I understand where you are coming from with your argument about the centralization it causes. However, let's say pikachu was being used by every single team, nmot too many people will give a crap. Or...let's say everyone had a scizor, which is to an extent true in the OU at this point (well we know a lot of people are using him at least). You see a pokemon that are overall a good and useful pokemon that also counters or checks scizor but you wouldn't see everyone putting in couple of pokemons (yes for Garchomp I feel like you need more than one pokemon to "counter" him) in their teams just to fight off scizor variants. For Garchomp, at this point, people are doing this. I would say Garchomp is pretty Uberish at this point :/

 

[Mr.E]

Every team should have at least one or two pokémon able to handle most any common threat. Otherwise, it's going to be all too easy for Garchomp to sweep through it. Or Gyarados or Heatran or Scizor... You know? That's the whole idea behind building a team, so you cover as many threats as possible with as many overlaps as possible to minimize the opponent's chance for an easy sweep. (Or maybe you just build hyper-offensive and try to overwhelm your opponent before they can do the same in return.)

Garchomp is a very common threat, so people will tend to be more prepared for it. On that same token, Garchomp is very likely to sweep people anyway simply because everyone's using it. If Garchomp is on 60% of teams and Scizor is only on 30% of teams, Garchomp automatically has twice as many chances to sweep as Scizor! The question is then thus, why is Garchomp used so much? Maybe it's flat-out overpowered but maybe it's a combination of other factors. Maybe it's very easy to plug into most any team, like Scizor, and people want to get their Suspect EXP for the ladder.

I, for one, don't feel Garchomp is substantially stronger than the slew of other pokémon people whine about but largely accept as OU material. (Salamence, Latias, etc.) Just because Sand Veil causes something like Haunter's pasted log to happen every 1-in-150 battles isn't really the straw that breaks the camel's back. You could do that same crap with Gliscor or Cacturne or Mamoswine (Snow Cloak) on the rare occasions that kind of luck happens.

 

[Raikaria]

Except Gliscor, Cacturne and Mamoswine don't sweep whole teams, usually.

Nor does Glaceon.

They all have a flaw somewhere. (Low speed, usually, but Gliscor lacks the force to sweep)

Garchomp does not have a flaw. It's bulky enough to take most attacks, so an attack missing = extra turn to Swords Dance and harder to counter.

That equals longer sweep.

That equals something the examples you posted can't do.

Sand Veil isn't WHY Garchomp's Uber, but it's a contributing factor. Even without sand veil, I'd still vote Garchomp Uber. It does well enough on teams without Sand.

And, Umbreon Dan. The metagame is centralised around Garchomp. Prepared for Garchomp. Yet Garchomp remains a strong threat, and sweeps, even with his counters out there in force. If he beats common OU teams made to defeat him, how is he not Uber? In OU, it's hard to be prepared for all of the different threats. Few teams can counter all varities of Gyarados, Heatran, Salamance, Scizor, Lucario, Infernape, Latias, ect, ect, all at once. In Suspect, people only have to worry about Manaphy and Garchomp. I've not seen a single Gyarados, Lucario, Salamance, or Infernape out there. Teams are therefor able to be more specilised than they would be in OU. However, Garchomp still sweeps in this environment.

In OU, people will be worrying about the list I posted above, in addittion to Garchomp. They will have to counter Gyarados. If a whole team dedicated to stopping Chomp can't do so 100%, how will he fare in OU, when only one, maybe two members, can do so?

Answer: He will tear things apart.

And, about other people wining about other pokemon. Look at the stats. Scizor is becoming centralising, and a few people wondered: 'New suspect here?' (Me included, but I didn't quite know how nomination worked, until I looked at the Yanmega thread) Scizor arguably could fit either the Offensive of Support factors with it's current power. It's in the top 10 in Ubers, despite the number 1 threat loving Scizor. Next suspect nominations, except the pokemon people whine about to recive plenty of nominations. Garchomp is as strong, if not stronger than the other 'complained about' pokemon, because it's dominating in a metagame prepared for them. I doubt Scizor/Salamance could.

 

[Azule]

All the issues saying Manaphy cant perform well in this metagame are kinda funny, Sandstorm is in a lot of OU teams, Latias is also very common in OU.

If given team support, like a lot of other Pokemon, Manaphy can sweep.

Manaphy is an OU Pokemon, i've used it on all my teams, and i've been really disappointed with it. Other base 100 Pokemon are better than this thing, the only difference is that this one can sweep.

I mean, Suicune can sweep, but that's not Uber, and requires less team support. The whole Hydra-Rest thing is always gonna be hard to pull off.

 

[haunter]

Every team should have at least one or two pokémon able to handle most any common threat. Otherwise, it's going to be all too easy for Garchomp to sweep through it. Or Gyarados or Heatran or Scizor... You know? That's the whole idea behind building a team, so you cover as many threats as possible with as many overlaps as possible to minimize the opponent's chance for an easy sweep. (Or maybe you just build hyper-offensive and try to overwhelm your opponent before they can do the same in return.)

This is the problem with Garchomp: there are very few Pokemon (if any) in the metagame which are capable of handling it. Unlike Scizor or Gyarados, which all have several checks and some sure counters, Garchomp has no sure counters and just one reliable check: Latias (without counting other improbable scarf'd dragons). As stated multiple times, Skarmory and Bronzong can counter the scarf variant, but they lose to the SD, as a SD fire fang can 2hko both, nontheless, Skarm can only roar it out while Bronzong must pray to 3hko it with gyro ball. Scizor is a decent check, but once again, it's not guaranteed to 2hko it with bullet punch and if it comes in on a SD, then it's a goner.

Garchomp is a very common threat, so people will tend to be more prepared for it. On that same token, Garchomp is very likely to sweep people anyway simply because everyone's using it. If Garchomp is on 60% of teams and Scizor is only on 30% of teams, Garchomp automatically has twice as many chances to sweep as Scizor! The question is then thus, why is Garchomp used so much? Maybe it's flat-out overpowered but maybe it's a combination of other factors. Maybe it's very easy to plug into most any team, like Scizor, and people want to get their Suspect EXP for the ladder

Yeah, you're right here. In fact I agree that centralization is not a clue of Garchomp's uber status. People use Garchomp because it's probably the most controversial suspect in this round of testing (and for the SEXP, obviously), but they also use it because it's a great asset to every team, providing useful resistances and an excellent immunity, combined with massive offensive stats. Garchomp can fit into almost every team: offensive (for obvious reasons), balanced and even stall teams (which often need a revenge killer).

I, for one, don't feel Garchomp is substantially stronger than the slew of other pokémon people whine about but largely accept as OU material. (Salamence, Latias, etc.) Just because Sand Veil causes something like Haunter's pasted log to happen every 1-in-150 battles isn't really the straw that breaks the camel's back. You could do that same crap with Gliscor or Cacturne or Mamoswine (Snow Cloak) on the rare occasions that kind of luck happens.

Eh, probably that massive luck happens quite rarely, but I've seen several battles decided by sand veil hax. The problem is that giving a Garchomp a single free SD (because of a miss) means GG in most of the cases. And no, those comparisons are absolutely inadequate: Caturne is NU for a reason and has mediocre defences and speed, hence it's hard to switch in and quite easy to revenge kill; Gliscor has an average base 95 Atk \ 95 Spe, which means that even after a SD it's not capable of sweeping with ease as a plethora of Pokemon can outspeed it and exploit its common special weaknesses to take it down, nontheless, its only useful stab is ground; Mamoswine has a great offensive typing, but, unlike Garchomp, a very bad defensive one, it's not easy to switch in, and il lacks the access to swords dance, also, being weak to bullet punch\mach punch doesn't help at all, Mamo also has just a meager 80 base Spe.

 

[deluge]

So people really believe Garchomp can sweep a whole team with "little effort"?
It's best moves all carry risk with EQ letting in Latias/ScarfGon and Outrage letting in steels.
Furthermore it has no priority and isn't quite fast enough to get the jump on everything.

Garchomp was not a problem for my rain team where Bronzong would happily set up rain/explode in his face for Kingdra to sweep.
(Obviously he died if he came in when Kingdra was already sweeping in the rain)

Don't get me wrong, Garchomp is truly intimidating both competitively and aesthetically.
I think that is part of it's problem here; he's just a bit too perfectly done for the role Nintendo intended and elicits all the terror among battlers that a fearsome shark dragon should.
The DP metagame is inherently fast-paced and offensive and I think Garchomp epitomizes that.

However I am positive that it is not in the league of Pokemon that are indisputably Uber.
Almost everything else in ubers has a superior combination of at least two of versatlity, speed, raw power, or overall bulk.
Garchomp is what the best OU Pokemon looks like and nothing more, IMO

We can banish it to Ubers because we 'don't want to deal with' it or 'prefer the game without it'
but that's different from saying it plays the role of Uber as Mewtwo, Kyogre or Darkrai do.
Is there a modicum of objectivity or is it strictly about what we would rather the game be?
I am actually curious about that though it might sound sarcastic.

 

[Toaster]

I found out that Sub+Tail Grow manaphy is probably the best set imo.If you can get it in on something that forces it out,you can Sub then tail grow without faster pokemon ruining your fun.Sub+Tail grow Manaphy is doing pretty well on my team so far.

 

[deluge]

I found out that Sub+Tail Grow manaphy is probably the best set imo.If you can get it in on something that forces it out,you can Sub then tail grow without faster pokemon ruining your fun.Sub+Tail grow Manaphy is doing pretty well on my team so far.

What are your two attacks:
Surf, and Ice Beam or Grass Knot?

 

[haunter]

We can banish it to Ubers because we 'don't want to deal with' it or 'prefer the game without it'
but that's different from saying it plays the role of Uber as Mewtwo, Kyogre or Darkrai do.
Is there a modicum of objectivity or is it strictly about what we would rather the game be?
I am actually curious about that though it might sound sarcastic.

We don't ban to Ubers a Pokemon because we, arbitrarily, prefer a metagame without it. We ban a Pokemon when it fullfills any of the uber characteristics:

Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

Defensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is able to wall and stall out a significant portion of the metagame.

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

Take a look at this thread for further informations.

 

[mohaji]

I found out that Sub+Tail Grow manaphy is probably the best set imo.If you can get it in on something that forces it out,you can Sub then tail grow without faster pokemon ruining your fun.Sub+Tail grow Manaphy is doing pretty well on my team so far.

Tail Glow Manaphy is the best sweeperset of Manaphy. But I didn't play it with Sub. I play my Manaphy so:
Manaphy @ Leftovers
EVs: 80 HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
Timid Nature
~Tail Glow
~Surf
~Ice Beam
~Energy Ball

Description:
Ice Beam is for Dragons like Garchomp, Salamence, Dragonite- Energy Ball is for Swampert and other Manaphys. With one Tail Glow Boost Energy Ball OHKOs full HP Manaphy.

 

[The_Chaser]

I went into suspect, expecting Garchomp not to be broken, however the sheer fact that most games are decided by him by brute strength, a speed tie or sand veil is definately broken. Latias is easily OU for me and I am unsure about Manaphy but at the moment I'm leaning towards OU. Overall, I find suspect an extremely fun and enjoyable metagame (but very haxy).

 

[deluge]

We don't ban to Ubers a Pokemon because we, arbitrarily, prefer a metagame without it. We ban a Pokemon when it fullfills any of the uber characteristics:

Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

Defensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is able to wall and stall out a significant portion of the metagame.

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

Take a look at this thread for further informations.

I am quite aware of the above, in fact that why I quoted "little effort".
My point was that Garchomp cannot be banned on the offensive characteristic.
Maybe we need to dump some of those Pokemon that have never been tested in OU (presumably because their Uber status is deemed to be so self-evident) to see what REAL Uber Pokemon do to the metagame.

They are not Uber because they are very dangerous but because they're nigh impossible to beat with standard Pokemon.
I think we have lost sight, in practical terms, of what an Uber looks like in a non-Uber environment.
Words don't tell us what "little effort" is, we may need to see it from quintessential Ubers.
That way we won't imagine the threshold to be what it's not.

 

[Toaster]

Tail Glow Manaphy is the best sweeperset of Manaphy. But I didn't play it with Sub. I play my Manaphy so:
Manaphy @ Leftovers
EVs: 80 HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
Timid Nature
~Tail Glow
~Surf
~Ice Beam
~Energy Ball

Description:
Ice Beam is for Dragons like Garchomp, Salamence, Dragonite- Energy Ball is for Swampert and other Manaphys. With one Tail Glow Boost Energy Ball OHKOs full HP Manaphy.

I faced/Tried a silmilar manaphy on suspect,And its forced out by faster pokemon like garchomp and latias(Who can hit it hard with Outrage and Draco meteor/Thunderbolt respectivly) And without anyway of protecting it from status apart from "Hydra-rest" which is ruined by weather changers.Manaphy can be better with a Sub.

Oh and if anyone wants the set:

Manaphy@Leftovers
Evs:4 HP/252 Sp Atk/252 Spd
Nature:Timid
-Substitude
-Tail Grow
-Surf
-HP Electric/Ice beam/Energy ball
.....
The Evs are pretty straight forward for a sweeping manaphy.Substitude on something that it forces out,Then tail grow away.Your last move comes to type coverage.HP Electric Hits Gyarados and other waters.Ice beam hits Dragons.And energy ball hits swampert.

 

[Coronis]

How the fuck does Garchomp sweep whole teams?

Unless you are unprepared for it, but then that could be applied to many OU pokemon, such as Gliscor Cacturne and Mamoswine. Sand Veil isn't even a good argument with Chomp. You are just as likely to do that to Gliscor or Mamoswine, and there is even more chance that Togekiss/Jirachi can flinch you..

 

[YTP]

I think there should be a line between adjusting to a new metagame and over centralizing. You can't use the same stuff that you use in standard all the time and expect to succeed in suspect. Otherwise, a well played Garchomp WILL sweep you. I'm kinda on the wall about Chomp at the moment. Leaning toward OU but I'm sure somebody will come up with something that'll make it uber lol.

 

[Heartgold]

How the fuck does Garchomp sweep whole teams?

Unless you are unprepared for it, but then that could be applied to many OU pokemon, such as Gliscor Cacturne and Mamoswine. Sand Veil isn't even a good argument with Chomp. You are just as likely to do that to Gliscor or Mamoswine, and there is even more chance that Togekiss/Jirachi can flinch you..

Now if you are getting swept by Garchomp, you really have no place commenting on it.

I'm with you, it doesn't sweep the whole team, but does dent and take out 1 or more pokes in some matches. But then again when I look at salamence in OU it does the same thing, denting opponents and taking out few pokes when its striking not to mention how unpredictible it is. So to be honest I think garchomp is similar to scizor and mence, A highly useful OU pokemon which fits into any team.

 

[Lee]

Now if you are getting swept by Garchomp, you really have no place commenting on it.

Please don't talk such rubbish. We're welcoming all experiences with the Suspects. Besides that, it's just plain dumb to imply that people who are getting swept by one of the best sweepers in the game are any less worthy of sharing their opinion. We've all been swept by Garchomp at some point in our careers.

 

[phalanx]

only poke i have 6-0ed on suspect with is electivire :/
ok so we talk about latias being ou and that it checks garchomp.
what acctually counter it based on those?
why should people not using it have an less of opinion, facing them is easy enough to work out what to do.
as for garchomp
intimade + wow are good
we have no such luxury with latias (no SPA lower effect or power) and afaik nothing can switch into ANY of latias' moves then kill it.
revenge kill checks latias yes, AND the same can be applied to garchomp.
all OU's have some checks, latias has minimal checks, which to me is adding to the scizor heatran and latias combos, and staling the metagame
lack of players is making it dificult to reach into the deviation bracket though :/

 

[Hipmonlee]

Just because Sand Veil causes something like Haunter's pasted log to happen every 1-in-150 battles isn't really the straw that breaks the camel's back.

There were 2 significant misses in that battle. The garchomp was subbing, it could make 4 subs. My calculations might be wrong but I have garchomp with roughly a 34% chance of achieving that result. And the worst case scenario is it still does a significant chunk of damage to swampert before dying.

Actually maybe about 8% less because if it had subbed down to salac it wouldnt have had the sub up to face Scizor, but possibly more because it could have dodged the bullet punch.. So yeah, a one in three shot at setting up and sweeping against a pokemon with full health, tons of defense and icebeam, a Scizor, a scarfer and a latias.

Honestly that is exactly sweeping a whole team with little effort.

If you cant sweep people with garchomp then perhaps you are the one who has no place commenting on it?

Ok I checked over my maths

Assuming SR was down on Haunters side, then it's 4 hits to KO Chomp.

0 misses (41% chance) and Swampert takes 60%+ and Garchomp dies (this doesnt actually include the chance of CHing, which actually means this is actually 38% but I cant be bothered working out what this does to the other calculations..

1 miss (21% chance) and Swampert dies and Scizor is locked into bullet punch, allowing you to set up or revenge kill.

Which leaves 38% chance that Garchomp sweeps the 5 remaining pokemon in the team. This is a team with Swampert and three supposed Garchomp checks.

Have a nice day.

 

[phalanx]

that could be brightpower effect too though ban that
and no it doesnt because i had something similar a FEW BEFORE the log, shadow ball and 2 HP ice's missing? seriously?

 

[Hipmonlee]

He didnt have bright powder he had salac berry.

Have a nice day.

 

[Ciele]

From what I've played, Garchomp is far too good for OU. No reliable counters at all, difficult to Roar/Whirlwind away [4 Whirlwinds missing in a row isn't cool] bulky as hell, and having Scarf and Yache sets even makes it hard to know what you're fighting against.

Latias is clearly OU though, imo. It may be very strong, but it has good counters and checks, and can be played around. Same goes for Manaphy. At first, I thought that it was broken, but the more I see of it, the more I think that it's OU.

My verdict: Garchomp: Uber, Manaphy: OU, Latias: OU.

 

[phalanx]

shoody hax is OTT.
and latias counters are? cos i cant think of something on the top of my head that can switch in and kill latias without dying first (except scarfed of course but in general)
i'm playing AROUND garchomp uisng intimidate and WoW, i have no way of playing around latias in that way

 

[Heartgold]

shoody hax is OTT.
and latias counters are? cos i cant think of something on the top of my head that can switch in and kill latias without dying first (except scarfed of course but in general)
i'm playing AROUND garchomp uisng intimidate and WoW, i have no way of playing around latias in that way

Blissey is simply non existence here, so Latias is free to spam LO draco meteor's/other effective attacks conveniently with nothing taking it easily and recover off the damage later if its still alive.
However it's much easier to revenge kill and really doesn't cause a huge threat overall. I've been running scarfTar and bluffing it that it can take Tar on but it becames a T-tar's crunch snack.

EDIT:
Ways to get around latias that can switch in can cause it a threat

T-tar -Special defensive spread - Crunch/pursuit?
Scizor - Special defensive spread - BP/U-turn?... predict
Bronzong - Gyro ball?
Metagross- special defensive spread needed to threaten latias- MM,pursuit?

EDIT: heh Haunter your list has more details and more helpful than mine. So people just look at Haunter's post, ignore mine. =]

 

[haunter]

shoody hax is OTT.
and latias counters are? cos i cant think of something on the top of my head that can switch in and kill latias without dying first (except scarfed of course but in general)
i'm playing AROUND garchomp uisng intimidate and WoW, i have no way of playing around latias in that way

Latias counters obviously depend on the set. Calm mind variants are usually dealt with Scizor as they lack hp fire. Specs variants are usually countered by both Scizor and TTar if you switch into a dragon move. Basically Scizor only fears a specs surf or a random hidden power fire. Careful TTar can take everything but 2 consecutive specs surf. Blissey stops Latias almost always, as Latias needs to pack calm mind\dragon pulse\refresh and recover to beat her 1 vs 1. Pursuit Snorlax is a good counter too. Metagross with a slight SpD investment can switch into everything Latias can throw at it and eliminate her with meteor mash\pursuit\bullet punch. Ice punch Registeel is a decent switch into Latias but it's quite often a dead weight for the team. Sassy Bronzong can easily force Latias out with gyro ball or hypnosis. Careful Jirachi is also a perfect check with wish, iron head and body slam\thunder wave. I'm probably forgetting something, but I find that Metagross is perfect as a Latias counter.