Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

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A lot of people have been complaining about the order of certain bans/unbans/suspects and how short or long they took. Would be cool if the survey included a preferred order of for the seemingly inevitable tera and volc retests alongside any other potential suspect in the survey.

More community driven direction + less council = corrupt comments.
 
Thoughts on ash greninja?
loving it as an HO cleaner, the boosts on its already great stats are enough I’ve found for it to clean weakened teams with this set

:greninja:
JUGGERNAUT (Greninja-Bond) @ Life Orb
Ability: Battle Bond
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Taunt (good vs other ho and fat etc)

:dragapult: :greninja: :ursaluna: :kingambit: :moltres-galar: :Samurott-Hisui: <- team

haven’t tested but scarf and specs sets seem interesting on offensive teams, I suppose it could function on balance with the choice item outside of the boosts but I do think it’s an interesting pick on HO

edit: agree with everything andviet said, took me too long to write this post lol
 
I hope folks tackle Tera before Gambit in the survey now that Zam is legal. Iron Defense Zam is an amazing counter when it's fresh and there's really nothing Gambit can do against it when it gets going.

What makes that dog especially annoying is also Tera IMO. And if people want Volcarona to come back, voting on Tera would do that, not also banning Gambit.
 
I don't know why people think Tera preview is enough when Boltbeam-Eleki, MU Moth, Iron Valiant, Kingambit, and Espathra, don't really rely on the surprise factor and more the the defensive and offensive capabilities of changing your type adding to their kits in major ways that most other Pokemon can't compete with, also there's still the matter of when, which might make the coin flipping feeling even worse.
 
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I don't know why people think Tera preview is enough when Boltbeam-Eleki, MU Moth, Iron Valiant, Kingambit, and Espathra, don't really rely on the surprise factor and more the the defensive and offensive capabilities of changing your type adding to their kits in major ways that most other Pokemon can't compete with, also there's still the matter of when, which might make the coin flipping feeling even worse.
Am I crazy or is this just not the case at all??

On the Smogon dex there's 3 Tera types for Volc (Grass/Ground/Fairy), 6 for Valiant (Fairy/Ghost/Electric/Steel/Dark/Water), 5 for Gambit (Flying/Ghost/Fairy/Dark/Fire), and 2 for Espathra (Fairy/Fighting).

So how can you say Tera preview isn't enough? Obviously when and who they Tera is still a part of the mindgame but it's very clear that a lot of the best mons have a wealth of options to Tera into so being able to narrow down to a SINGLE ONE is still a huge change (maybe not enough in your eyes, but still incredibly different nonetheless).
 

awyp

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I don't know why people think Tera preview is enough when Boltbeam-Eleki, MU Moth, Iron Valiant, Kingambit, and Espathra, don't really rely on the surprise factor and more the the defensive and offensive capabilities of changing your type adding to their kits in major ways that most other Pokemon can't compete with, also there's still the matter of when, which might make the coin flipping feeling even worse.
See 'enough' I think is the wrong terminology but, I’ll get what I can and having preview at least gives me an idea which Tera the opponent is favoring. Preview Tera would be much 'helpful' then being in the dark when it comes to some mons just completely shocking you. I’m sure we’ve all been there.
 
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ant4456

I COULD BE BANNED!
I don't know why people think Tera preview is enough when Boltbeam-Eleki, MU Moth, Iron Valiant, Kingambit, and Espathra, don't really rely on the surprise factor and more the the defensive and offensive capabilities of changing your type adding to their kits in major ways that most other Pokemon can't compete with, also there's still the matter of when, which might make the coin flipping feeling even worse.
Because I don't care about the bans, I care about the actual turn-to-turn gameplay

And I think the argument that Tera Preview makes that turn to turn gameplay worse is silly
 
If we lose torn-t to new toy syndrome uu is gonna get absolutely terrorized for a month unless they quickban it. (All they have to deal with it is killowattrel and shocks.) And meanwhile low ladder players make sure we keep iron treads for whatever goddamn reason...

I can verify its still good and somewhat easy to slot as an offensive regen mon, albeit very underexplored and looked over due to the movepool losses of defog and knock off.


New toy syndrome is fucked up sometimes...
 
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If we lose torn-t to new toy syndrome uu is gonna get absolutely terrorized for a month unless they quickban it. (All they have to deal with it is killowattrel and shocks.) And meanwhile low ladder players make sure we keep iron treads for whatever goddamn reason...

I can verify its still good and somewhat easy to slot as an offensive regen mon, albeit very underexplored and looked over due to the movepool losses of defog and knock off.


New toy syndrome is fucked up sometimes...
Losing knock off, toxic and defog is super big, now what Torn does most of the time is miss Hurricane/the new move when it could force progress before with all those moves. Regen+u turn is nice but the issue is that doesn't do much else. Is like if the only good attack on Slowking-G was focus blast.
 
Am I crazy or is this just not the case at all??

On the Smogon dex there's 3 Tera types for Volc (Grass/Ground/Fairy), 6 for Valiant (Fairy/Ghost/Electric/Steel/Dark/Water), 5 for Gambit (Flying/Ghost/Fairy/Dark/Fire), and 2 for Espathra (Fairy/Fighting).

So how can you say Tera preview isn't enough? Obviously when and who they Tera is still a part of the mindgame but it's very clear that a lot of the best mons have a wealth of options to Tera into so being able to narrow down to a SINGLE ONE is still a huge change (maybe not enough in your eyes, but still incredibly different nonetheless).
It is a change, but not as big as you make it out to be, yeah you now know that your opponent's Gambit is tera fairy but should you switch out or attack it, hoping for it to not tera? those are still major questions that remain, while Tera preview is nice, Coinflips are still a plenty and Kingambit, while not as powerful, is still strong enough to cleanly sweep teams.


And I think the argument that Tera Preview makes that turn to turn gameplay worse is silly
yeah you're correct, thoughtless comment that was not needed.
 
And I think the argument that Tera Preview makes that turn to turn gameplay worse is silly
No one (that I know of) says it’s actively worse, it’s just not super helpful.
I get people who want to keep the generational mechanic, but given the fact that megas may come in the DLC, which is on the table since the Kalos-Paldea theories are strong, we may not be left with nothing.
Was Zama ever considered for SW/SH OU? It seems kinda weak considering it doesn't have Body Press and Tera Options back then.
I think that there was a sizeable group of people that wanted it to enter OU, but it wasn’t seriously considered. There was talk, but nothing was gonna happen.
 
Losing knock off, toxic and defog is super big, now what Torn does most of the time is miss Hurricane/the new move when it could force progress before with all those moves. Regen+u turn is nice but the issue is that doesn't do much else. Is like if the only good attack on Slowking-G was focus blast.
It has a fair amount of things slowking g doesn't though like being a fast (121 speed is still very good mind you) nasty plot and taunt regen user, not to mention as a pivot its role is to keep momentum going rather than start it unlike slowking-g, who is a momentum sink who can start pivoting momentum through its slow pivoting. It can also be very good on rain teams, due to bleakwind getting boosted from rain. It has a good amount of things over slowking-g surprisingly, its just for whatever reason its being ignored. Comparing two pokemon with somewhat different roles and typings isn't necessarily a fair comparison, as neither compete for teamslots and often both end up on the kind same kinds of teams. I've seen a few very effective glowking+torn-t regen cores, and you would be surprised to see how well they preform.

My point being, torn-t still has quite a lot going for it, its just being a bit overlooked due to nerfs. Also its not fair to compare it to a slow bulky regen mon that hits hard as neither compete for team slots due to type overlap (Like where everyone had to make the choice of running skarm or corv last gen due to type overlap.) or outclass one another due to the different roles they play on a team. Just wanted to point out an oversight in your explanation
 
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Was Zama ever considered for SW/SH OU? It seems kinda weak considering it doesn't have Body Press and Tera Options back then.
Zamazenta-Crowned got a suspect test and it was voted to stay banned. Zamazenta-Hero never got tested though. Worth noting that back then, both forms of Zamazenta had 10 more base attack got the +1 defense on every switch-in as opposed to the first one, so banded Zam-H was a lot scarier back then than it is now.
 
What confuses me is that so many people are saying that Kingambit is particularly troublesome because it has so many teras that can surprise you , and tera preview takes care of at least that.

Like, I know you can lose because you couldn't possibly prepare for every Volc tera, but at least seeing it ahead of time can let you know when not to waste time on a bullshit match (only somewhat joking)
 
It has a fair amount of things slowking g doesn't though like being a fast (121 speed is still very good mind you) nasty plot and taunt regen user, not to mention as a pivot its role is to keep momentum going rather than start it unlike slowking-g, who is a momentum sink who can start pivoting momentum through its slow pivoting. It can also be very good on rain teams, due to bleakwind getting boosted from rain. It has a good amount of things over slowking-g surprisingly, its just for whatever reason its being ignored. Comparing two pokemon with somewhat different roles and typings isn't necessarily a fair comparison, as neither compete for teamslots and often both end up on the kind same kinds of teams. I've seen a few very effective glowking+torn-t regen cores, and you would be surprised to see how well they preform.

My point being, torn-t still has quite a lot going for it, its just being a bit overlooked due to nerfs. Also its not fair to compare it to a slow bulky regen mon that hits hard as neither compete for team slots due to type overlap (Like where everyone had to make the choice of running skarm or corv last gen due to type overlap.) or outclass one another due to the different roles they play on a team. Just wanted to point out an oversight in your explanation
Taunt is good, but the lack of a reliable damaging move outside rain is bad which makes NP a double edge sword, Zapdos is better in rain is better because provides more defensive utility while both of its stabs benefit from rain and even im the worst case scenario has the chance to cripple somebody with static.
It is just a consistency thing, even if Slowking-G loses momentum it is still super consistent in what it does, Torn just misses a lot. If it gets knock off back in dlcs it will be top tier again, but for now is kinda mid since lacks a safe move to click that isn't u-turn.
 
Are the bright powder and lax incense still banned? The strategy Pokédex says nothing of it but I’m not sure what’s true. It they’re not then we need to deal with them, they should be under evasion clause.
 
The more I play the crazier it seems that GF gave Enamorous Earth Power from both a lore and balancing perspective. Pretty bonkers mon, I would love to know the community sentiment on it in a few months.
 
The more I play the crazier it seems that GF gave Enamorous Earth Power from both a lore and balancing perspective. Pretty bonkers mon, I would love to know the community sentiment on it in a few months.
Enamorus will prob get less useful as time goes on. If Kingambit gets banned, Enamorus will gain competition from other Fairy types that weren’t fast enough to avoid getting trucked by iron Head. If Ursaluna gets banned(which seems very unlikely) being immune to Headlong won’t be as impactful as it would be otherwise. If garg gets banned, steel types like gholdengo and Corviknight will get better with no salt cure. More steel types is obviously bad for a fairy type, especially since corviknight is immune to EP. Enamorus will get weaker, but that’s not to say it isn’t awesome right now.
 
The more I play the crazier it seems that GF gave Enamorous Earth Power from both a lore and balancing perspective. Pretty bonkers mon, I would love to know the community sentiment on it in a few months.
Enamorus is kinda on the shadow of Valiant rn, EP is nice, but Valiant also got amazing coverage with Moonblast/shadow ball/thunderbolt or CC, spirit break and knock off, while has the option of boost its speed with booster energy and SD/CM which makes it super good on the mid/late game. Enamorus is more flexible with its item and come in more often, but the SR weakness is s huge drawback, especially in the late game against Gambit which only needs some chip on Enamorus to ko with sucker punch, while Valiant only has to worry about having the right move for whatever tera Gambit uses.
 
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awyp

'Alexa play Ladyfingers by Herb Alpert'
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Enamorus will prob get less useful as time goes on. If Kingambit gets banned, Enamorus will gain competition from other Fairy types that weren’t fast enough to avoid getting trucked by iron Head. If Ursaluna gets banned(which seems very unlikely) being immune to Headlong won’t be as impactful as it would be otherwise. If garg gets banned, steel types like gholdengo and Corviknight will get better with no salt cure. More steel types is obviously bad for a fairy type, especially since corviknight is immune to EP. Enamorus will get weaker, but that’s not to say it isn’t awesome right now.
I don't really agree. The way I look at it Enamorus isn't brought in the tier for defensive purposes against certain mons like Kingambit, Zamazenta, or Ursaluna it's there because it's a solid special attacker and a decent physical attacker that can run mixed sets, scarfed sets, specs sets, etc. It also is a flying type which this tier has been thoroughly lacking pre-HOME so that's something that has been welcomed with open arms. I think before DLCs come Enamorus will lock in to the 10 top of usage, from a offensive perspective it provides a lot that other mons in the tier can't match IMO.
 
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