Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

[JunkoAJ]

I find the ND Tera suspect discussion to be interesting because is needing go to 30-0/have 80 GXE really that low a requirement? Of course win-trading could be a thing but that can happen no matter what the reqs could be. The point is anyone can qualify and these reqs have been set in place all generation and hasn't had an issue until now where people think people are "spamming" the results with DNB. Obviously the vocal people on the forums aren't happy but they never are and never will be the entire playerbase that can get reqs. And why is it a problem that someone that never posts on the forum (but might be a regular ND player on Showdown) could make a new account for the forums to post reqs?

 

[ant4456]

side note - now that I look at it, the NDOU tera suspect had a suspiciously large amount of people whose only activity was a DNB vote in the thread. Like 'nearly every DNB vote'. Maybe I'm a conspiracy theorist, but did anyone do a serious look into vote manipulation? Or does every suspect look like that and I just didn't both to check.

The Chinese playerbase had a prominent member tell their fellow players to get reqs and vote Do Not Ban.

Because they have usually no reason to join an English forum, they had to make accounts.

Because they were only there for one purpose, that is their only account history.

This does not mean any manipulation or alting has occurred, nor is this suspect, or malicious.

Not that I'm making fun of you, just trying to ease concerns.

 

[AM]

I find the ND Tera suspect discussion to be interesting because is needing go to 30-0/have 80 GXE really that low a requirement? Of course win-trading could be a thing but that can happen no matter what the reqs could be. The point is anyone can qualify and these reqs have been set in place all generation and hasn't had an issue until now where people think people are "spamming" the results with DNB. Obviously the vocal people on the forums aren't happy but they never are and never will be the entire playerbase that can get reqs. And why is it a problem that someone that never posts on the forum (but might be a regular ND player on OU) could make a new account for the forums to post reqs?

It isn't an issue, the people who live on the forums dont realize there's all sorts of communities with different perspectives from different places. People who are okay with how things are usually not going to complain or have an opinion on it until it's time to test something. Read any sort of Policy Review thread to realize this.

Idk why mentions of it come up in the OU thread to grasp straws anyways.

 

[Froctopus]

Everyone wants to be justified in their conclusions, so they will find proof wherever necessary to support their view, disregarding nuances and context. I'm hoping this tera suspect happens the exact same way in OU, I love tera and I'm hoping it stays

 

[SpritePony]

Everyone wants to be justified in their conclusions, so they will find proof wherever necessary to support their view, disregarding nuances and context. I'm hoping this tera suspect happens the exact same way in OU, I love tera and I'm hoping it stays

I'd like Tera to stay as well, but if we're going to test it, I like the idea that another user suggested; Run the test in two phases. First phase should be restricted Tera (either preview or one per team). After a short period, have a second test right after that is a whole ban on Tera. Once the same amount of time has passed, close the test and hold the suspect vote. That way people actually get to experience what the impacts could/would be and would rather see happen.

 

[Froctopus]

I'd like Tera to stay as well, but if we're going to test it, I like the idea that another user suggested; Run the test in two phases. First phase should be restricted Tera (either preview or one per team). After a short period, have a second test right after that is a whole ban on Tera. Once the same amount of time has passed, close the test and hold the suspect vote. That way people actually get to experience what the impacts could/would be and would rather see happen.

Yeah I saw that post, and I like that idea because then you feel the full impact of the ban.

 

[Goodbye & Thanks]

I’ve been reading the posts in this thread again to kill time and I’ve gotten the impression that much of the forums, but this thread in particular, are echo chambers that don’t do much to reflect the widespread sentiments of the community or accurately predict the outcomes of suspect tests. Even though this is the OU discussion thread and ostensibly could reflect the pulse of the community, the reality is that a handful of the same users tend to post in these threads. That isn’t a problem and I’m not disparaging any of those users, since it is positive to contribute to threads like this, but sometimes I get the feeling that some people lose sight of that reality and think that this thread represents the playerbase at large.

I agree with AM entirely in that there are many communities beyond the forums. Showdown is much larger than Smogon and there are many good players who either don’t have Smogon accounts or do but rarely post. If you look through any suspect identification thread, you will find many players who make reqs that have relatively few forum posts and low reaction scores. Those users aren’t as readily visible as the more vocal posters in threads like this one, but they are far more important in regards to influencing tiering action. Again, I don’t want to come across as condescending or insulting towards any users, but many of the more opinionated and outspoken users in discussion threads often don’t end up actually getting reqs. It isn’t uncommon to see long posts in suspect discussion threads that end with something along the lines of “…and that’s why I’ll be voting ban,” but that user never appears in the voter identification thread. This is why earlier in my post I alluded to threads like this not always being accurate forecasters of suspect test outcomes; I feel like this happened with the previous Tera test where many people discussing in the threads seemed convinced that at least some type of action was guaranteed to occur, which obviously didn’t come to fruition.

In a similar vein, it’s weird to me that some users try to portray certain voters in suspect tests as more casual. I understand that their thought processes in doing so is likely that more casual players enjoy gimmicks, and Tera is a gimmick, so therefore people voting to keep Tera, particularly if they’re newer to Smogon, must be more casual. However, I think that’s kind of a flawed perspective. Besides the point that many of those voters are likely more experienced players than their Smogon join date may suggest, especially if they aren’t primarily English speakers, they still got reqs, which is a threshold designed to filter out unqualified or inexperienced players. If anything, the users who lambast other users that decided to vote a certain way but did not achieve reqs themselves appear to be far more casual to me than anyone who actually qualified to vote.

Even the vote of a new user whose only posts are in the identification and voting threads ends up counting just as much as the vote of one of the most accomplished tournament players like ABR or SoulWind, and that’s how it should be. The whole point of having democratic votes like Smogon does is to allow every user the opportunity to influence their desired outcome through voting. I guess that Smogon having a GXE threshold for reqs makes it so that it isn’t truly democratic in that not every user is skilled enough or able to qualify to vote, but there’s also clearly a big difference between actual democratic elections and Smogon tiering; it would be funny though if people needed to pass a certain test to do things like vote for the next President of the United States, although that would clearly be a horrible idea that runs contrary to core democratic principles. As a final aside before I get back on topic, that XY Ubers Shadow Tag voting process is hilarious to me. I find the notion of having to compose a paragraph defending why you were voting a certain way, and if your reasoning is deemed to be unsound, your vote gets thrown out, really funny. It seems like some bizarre homework assignment with a completely subjective rubric that you could end up failing for arbitrary reasons, and you may also need to write it in a language that you aren’t fluent in, if you aren’t a native English speaker. I’m not hating on Fireburn or anyone else involved with making that decision either - I just think it’s a very amusing premise to think back to.

Anyway, isn’t it a good thing for new users to join Smogon? If someone creates a Smogon account solely with the purpose of voting in a test that they got reqs for, they may become inclined to participate in Smogon tournaments or contribute to the forums. I feel like this would be an especially good outcome if the new users who had enough talent to get reqs do come from other communities or regions of the world that are less represented on Smogon, since they could help establish different sub-communities within Smogon.

I understand that getting reqs isn’t necessarily some profound accomplishment or proof of much and that many users choose not to attempt laddering for them - I personally got reqs once last generation for the Urshifu OU suspect and I decided never to do it again since I found it to be a stressful and unenjoyable experience, even when I had a fairly “clean” run to 32-2, wading through much of the lower ladder without too much of a headache. With that being said, anyone who does decide to ladder and is able to achieve reqs deserves to vote, and there isn’t really a way to “cheat” your way to reqs by doing something like asking an opponent to forfeit. I guess that there could be concerns about a player making multiple accounts to vote with or ghosting other players to reqs, but I think that any instances of that would likely be insignificant in contrast to the total number of qualified voters for a test, especially for a more controversial subject like Tera.

So, to wrap this up, I guess all I was trying to say is that if people get reqs, they can vote however they want to, and that discussion threads like this only represent a very small portion of the playerbase, and an even smaller percentage of the players who are likely to get reqs and influence tiering action. It’s great for people to keep posting here and voicing their opinions, regardless of their skill level, so long as they respect the opinions and voting decisions of others, but I also think that it’s important to keep in mind how small this pond is and some the types of “fish” that tend to populate it.

 

[Jonbot]

but this thread in particular, are echo chambers that don’t do much to reflect the widespread sentiments of the community or accurately predict the outcomes of suspect tests.

This place is literally an echo. It literally feels like every page is just “ban tera” or “don’t ban tera” with the occasional person who just says the weirdest shit possible. It’s become the reason I want tera gone; to stop this constant arguing

 

[SpritePony]

This place is literally an echo. It literally feels like every page is just “ban tera” or “don’t ban tera” with the occasional person who just says the weirdest shit possible. It’s become the reason I want tera gone; to stop this constant arguing

The problem with this is that when Tera is gone, you'll still have people saying "I miss Tera, I wish it would come back" like that other user complaining about Volc being banned. You can't please everyone.

 

[DoofV3]

Zapdos, at least so far in low ladder, has been a surprisingly useful party member. I had never used one, though I certainly knew of its viability from facing many in past generations so to say that my eyes have been opened is the understatement of the century.

Such a fun and versatile mon, capable of stopping rain abusers and hit a lot of the threats in the meta hard/scouting... I will never understand why it took me so long to use one but now its never leaving my team.

 

[awyp]

I find the ND Tera suspect discussion to be interesting because is needing go to 30-0/have 80 GXE really that low a requirement? Of course win-trading could be a thing but that can happen no matter what the reqs could be. The point is anyone can qualify and these reqs have been set in place all generation and hasn't had an issue until now where people think people are "spamming" the results with DNB. Obviously the vocal people on the forums aren't happy but they never are and never will be the entire playerbase that can get reqs. And why is it a problem that someone that never posts on the forum (but might be a regular ND player on Showdown) could make a new account for the forums to post reqs?

It's not that it's a low requirement but achieving certain GXE on various ladders come up easier then others, I can speak for experience getting to 80 GXE in ubers is much easier then getting 80 GXE in SV OU, and it seems to be the same thing with Natdex. So if Natdex is the same requirement for SV OU then yeah it becomes easier to achieve. (Not blatantly easier, but noticeable for sure)

 

[Froctopus]

This place is literally an echo. It literally feels like every page is just “ban tera” or “don’t ban tera” with the occasional person who just says the weirdest shit possible. It’s become the reason I want tera gone; to stop this constant arguing

Just wondering, what would be your ideal for the forum?

The problem with this is that when Tera is gone, you'll still have people saying "I miss Tera, I wish it would come back" like that other user complaining about Volc being banned. You can't please everyone.

^ And this one of the reasons I don't want tera banned. People are seeing red because they are mad at tera, but once its gone there's going to be those posts where people miss it and will start the train of comments where with the release of HOME generations will start to blur together if the generational gimmick is banned.

 

[Froctopus]

Zapdos, at least so far in low ladder, has been a surprisingly useful party member. I had never used one, though I certainly knew of its viability from facing many in past generations so to say that my eyes have been opened is the understatement of the century.

Such a fun and versatile mon, capable of stopping rain abusers and hit a lot of the threats in the meta hard/scouting... I will never understand why it took me so long to use one but now its never leaving my team.

Ive been seeing an uptick in Zapdos praise alot, what makes it so good?

 

[awyp]

Ive been seeing an uptick in Zapdos praise alot, what makes it so good?

Static spam, Ground immunity, solid pivoter with U-turn / Volt Switch

 

[Jonbot]

Just wondering, what would be your ideal for the forum?

Ideally it would be mostly constructive discussion with the occasional one liner for fun

Realistically that’s not going to happen so I would like the thread to be general discussion about the the flavour of the week and then move on for a bit, coming back to it later if it’s still an issue. It may not be constructive discussion, but at least it’s different eg) spikes.

This thread rn feels like the same thing over and over. Just tera, something is broken because of tera, or this is why tera is fine. In the past week there has been 18 new pages on this thread. Only 2 of them didn’t include a complaint/discussion on tera. This is not including posts like “gambit is broken cause of tera”, just posts talking about tera itself. It feels like there is no variety cause it’s all people will talk about.

Mind you this is coming from my 1300 ass but it can’t just be a me thing.

 

[Nish the Great]

The Chinese playerbase had a prominent member tell their fellow players to get reqs and vote Do Not Ban.

Because they have usually no reason to join an English forum, they had to make accounts.

Because they were only there for one purpose, that is their only account history.

This does not mean any manipulation or alting has occurred, nor is this suspect, or malicious.

Not that I'm making fun of you, just trying to ease concerns.

Thank you ant, I’d like to say that the reason why there was such chaos during the Natdex Tera Test result is mostly due to how little communication happens between English-speaking players and non-English-speaking players. If you were on the chat, communicating with well known top players, or anywhere on smogon during the time, you’d have thought the suspect was going to end in a tera ban by a massive margin.

The Chinese community for Natdex obviously had very different views on tera, and because of the lack of communication people weren’t expecting that result. As ant said, they used new smogon accs because they had no reason to make one before.

 

[artificialdeath]

Considering that the first Tera suspect in this OU drew in the largest amount of first-time voters I don't know why people are automatically assuming that something malicious went down. Even if there was a coordinated attempt by users in the Chinese pokemon community to get players to get reqs, they're part of the competitive playerbase and they still got reqs at the end of the day. I agree that it's probably easier to reach these requirements in National Dex given the aforementioned quality of much of the playerbase, though, so that might have influenced the results (think it's more of a case of ignorance over malice, i doubt people were asking "forfeit so I can get reqs and vote DNB" and it's not too hard to fight your way through FEAR/ash ketchum/"gym leader" monotype teams and maybe 10-15 actual teams until youve reached the appropriate GXE)

This place is literally an echo. It literally feels like every page is just “ban tera” or “don’t ban tera” with the occasional person who just says the weirdest shit possible. It’s become the reason I want tera gone; to stop this constant arguing

Once the Tera discussion thread/suspect thread goes up it'll probably be confined to that. It's probably the most controversial mechanic that has been introduced since weathers in BW, and a lot of the stuff up for discussion (Gambit, Garg, banning/unbanning Volc) is greatly helped by its existence.

^ And this one of the reasons I don't want tera banned. People are seeing red because they are mad at tera, but once its gone there's going to be those posts where people miss it and will start the train of comments where with the release of HOME generations will start to blur together if the generational gimmick is banned.

So because people can be incredibly wrong on the forums (or more likely just Twitter and poketuber comments sections mainly) we shouldn't ban it? There were trains of comments when Blaziken or Aegislash were first banned about how Smogon was doing tiering wrong and we needed more complex bans, yet the verdicts remained the same. There's absolutely no way SV ends up like SS and I've gone through the reasons for this multiple times in this thread.

 

[SnackWasTaken]

Let's not pretend it isn't extremely easy to say "I'm voting do not ban can you forfeit" when you're about to lose, and that the average natdex kid won't treat you like Robin Hood and slam the forfeit button. I'd imagine most of the mysterious faceless "people who got recs" who never had accounts before used this method.

If one more person talks about what’s going on in natdex I might just quit OU forever and go back to 2v2’s

 

[Froctopus]

If one more person talks about what’s going on in natdex I might just quit OU forever and go back to 2v2’s

Hey Snack, did you hear that Natdex has had a suspect test on tera, and there was unexpected results because Showdown is played by a larger playerbase than those on the Smogon Forums?

 

[Ehmcee]

I've personally been loving using Moltres in the last few days. Initially got somewhat introduced to it by Blunder running it on like all his teams, but it ended up being quite a useful mon.


Moltres @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 248 HP / 248 SpD / 12 Spe OR EVs: 248 HP / 248 Def / 12 Spe
Calm Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Flamethrower
- U-turn
- Roost

Speed EV's are to outspeed max speed Kingambit, while shoving the rest into physdef or spdef.
The amount of pokemon this deals with in the upper tiers is honestly a godsend, depending on wether it runs physdef or spdef, it can check all of the following, or at least burning them.:

• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• (Without rock move)
• 

Obviously it's still incredibly dependant on having it's boots, but with the limited distribution of the move this gen, Moltres finds itself in a very useful niche as a defensive pivot on BO and Balance teams.
Would love to hear other people's experiences with it!

 

[RoyalDispenser]

Considering that the first Tera suspect in this OU drew in the largest amount of first-time voters I don't know why people are automatically assuming that something malicious went down.

I had 1 conspiracy theory about anything 'malicious' and it was that UU players influenced the vote cause they didn't want tera banned in UU (it was fine there, not sure how it is now). Even lily IIRC made a post telling UU players to vote in OU if they wanted tera around cause they don't really have control on how upper tiering affects lower tiering. UU players are more than capable of getting reqs but considering the vote is meant for OU's health it feels eerie wondering how many voted for other tiers instead regardless of if OU crashes and burns.

That being said there's no way to even confirm if that had any major impact on things, people who get reqs can vote however they want.

still i think that a policy review on how generational gimmicks get shared between tiers would be a good compromise

They needed a tera suspect ladder with tera disabled for a week or two, its literally not hard to give the playerbase a visual of A or B instead of only seeing A and making a vote on it, some just don't adapt to change well, some don't realize if they'd prefer a world without tera cause they don't know what it looks like, some genuinely like it, some might not even know if they hate it more than they should cause maybe the meta becomes too stagnant for their taste afterwards. That's part of why the tera suspect felt scuffed cause not only was it a ban / restriction vs. no ban, but we literally only could make conspiracies on what it looked like if ban/restriction went through. If it was done more properly I don't think many of us would be asking for a recount.

 

[SpritePony]

So because people can be incredibly wrong on the forums (or more likely just Twitter and poketuber comments sections mainly) we shouldn't ban it? There were trains of comments when Blaziken or Aegislash were first banned about how Smogon was doing tiering wrong and we needed more complex bans, yet the verdicts remained the same. There's absolutely no way SV ends up like SS and I've gone through the reasons for this multiple times in this thread.

You are completely taking what we were talking about excessively out of context. We're talking about "let's just ban tera to shut people up" and how it WON'T do that. People will STILL complain that Tera got banned, just as that one user kept whining about Volcarona being banned because they can't win without it.
This isn't about who is right or wrong in this, this was about trying to get people on either side of the line to stop complaining about it. As I said before, you can't please everyone. Regardless of whether Tera gets banned or not, a group of people are going to be unhappy and voice their dissastisfaction over it.

 

[658Greninja]

- you overstate the want valiant has for more moves. cc+knock+sd+encore or moon+cc+knock+encore does pretty much everything it needs to, with any sort of tera necessary depending on the team (dark, fighting, steel, fairy, elec, whatever) patching most of the holes you listed. furthermore, it is not necessary for a pokemon to be able to have 12 moveslots or whatever. never liked that argument, people tried it back when gren & volc were banned & it was bad then - the point is that it can run these moves & does have these options, making reliable preparation for it a sizeable task. full disclosure, not really decided on whether or not val is or is not reasonable in this regard, though i lean towards it being unreasonable.

My point still stands on Valiant not being broken. Regardless if it is SD + Encore, Encore Mixed, CM, Specs, etc, most teams have a dedicated check to it. Colbur King, Amoonguss, Zapdos, Molt, Pex, and Lando can check the common SD set. Even Clod might I add. CM variants are easier to check with Glowking, Clod, and Amoonguss. Depending on the Tera, Treads, Molt, and/or Ghold can also reasonably check it

- ya i think ghold is actually excellent in terms of offensive prowess & you understate this massively. if not played like a dunce, even just plot+recover is one of the better breakers in the tier imo due to its typing+bulk+servicable speed vs slower threats - especially with tera allowing it a free kill after a sack once it gets one of the many advantages it does to plot. also, yeah, good as gold is bullshit lol.

I should’ve rephrased myself correctly but what I originally meant was that Ghold wasn’t “broken” offensively. Ghold is a fantastic and customizable offensive presence that also checks important targets like Garg, the Fairies, Bax (with Balloon), etc. I mentioned the issue with its speed because the meta is even more offensive than the last gen. More mons in this gen can tank a hit from Ghold and are bulky enough or fast enough to threaten back. An example is Samu-H who is both its best friend and biggest enemy. Obviously Ghold can switch out, but you give momentum to Samu. There are other checks added from Home like AV Hoopa, A-Muk, Molt, and Tran. Obviously Ghold can Tera to bypass them, but it traces back to the discussion that Tera is the problem.

- idk bro zapdos is kinda hard to deal with unless you dedicate a tera elec to something, even more so than last gen due to the cut of toxic. it's not about being haxed by cane, lol - rather, there isn't that much in the way of dealing with volt+cane in the first place considering the best & most common ground-type gets crushed by cane. just not an easy mon to play against.

Zapdos is a naturally difficult mon to be completely safe against. Volt Switch + Discharge + Hurricane are incredibly annoying to play around, but not to the point of being overbearing. Tran and G-King can threaten Zap back or make progress out of it despite fearing Discharge or T-Wave. Ting-Lu can chip it with Ruination and punish Roost attempts with EQ We also do have other dedicated Zappy checks, albeit more niche.

Treads is an alternative to Tusks as it can switch into Zapdos barring Heat Wave and threaten with Knock and/or Ice Spinner. With the added benefit of fairing much better into the two main spinblockers (Ghold/Pult) than Tusks.

Sandy Shocks can eat a Hurricane and make progress out of that switch in with either hazards, Volt Switch, or threatening the team with its STAB combination + Tera Ice.

Thundy who I dedicated an entire post to is a more offensive version of Zapdos that hits even harder than it with the added benefit of being able to go Modest due to outrunning offensive Tusk/Bax by one point. Its a strong breaker that 2HKOs mons Zapdos normally wouldn’t like Clod, Glowking, and more with Specs Tera Flying.

A-Muk is a strong special wall that can force progress itself with Knock Off + Poison Touch. It can tank a couple hits from offensive variants with Protect + Lefties while threatening to both poison and remove its boots. Plus it also checks with the ghosts, Enam, and specially oriented Valiant.

Have you also tried SpD Ghold? Been using it lately and it puts in the work. It shrugs off hits from defensive variants while also doing better at checking Enam and avoiding a KO from Specs Pult after minimal chip.

- idk g offensive tusk is silly strong lol. can't count the amount of times in this meta i've got a spin off with max atk booster cc/headlong/spinner/spin and just... won? with practically no brainpower needed. i guess this is a niche set though so whatever. point is it is strong as fuck.

Still not particularly sold on the idea of banning Tusk. Not only is it our only reliable form of hazard removal outside of Cinder and Treads, but its not particularly broken itself. Even if Tusk manages to chip Zapdos or even OHKO it with Tera Ice Ice Spinner, it still risks being crippled by Static or if it isn’t sped booster, Zapdos can shrug one hit and threaten back. Dozo easily 1v1s it. Zama can 1v1 with the standard set. The HLR/CC/Spinner Tusk set you described is also checked by Molt who threatens with strong Flamethrowers/Hurricanes or burns.

Keep in mind none of the mons I’ve listed are unmons. Molt especially is a fantastic anti-meta mon, better than it was in SS. Less mons this gen carry Knock Off and most of the mons it is designated to check apart from Valiant do not carry Knock, which was why it fell off last gen. It checks so much shit, even mons you wouldn’t expect it to. With SpD investment, it eats hits from Specs Pult in a pinch, and checks a bunch of meta shit. Its not even a passive wall either, Flamethrower + Hurricane/BB from its solid offensive stats still stings, plus it can generate momentum with U-Turn. Heck it even checks non Lum/non-Tera Fire Gambit. Burn is even more affective than paralysis in this tier just cause how much of the tier is physically oriented.

Apart from Bax, Tera, and Gambit (yes I was finally convinced to vote ban on it) I don’t there is anything I find banworthy atm, and even if I do, its mostly cause of Tera making them more bullshit. Have you ever tried switching into a Modest Tera Dragon Draco from Pult without a Fairy? Not fun.

 

[Mega Breloom]

I've personally been loving using Moltres in the last few days. Initially got somewhat introduced to it by Blunder running it on like all his teams, but it ended up being quite a useful mon.


Moltres @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 248 HP / 248 SpD / 12 Spe OR EVs: 248 HP / 248 Def / 12 Spe
Calm Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Flamethrower
- U-turn
- Roost

Speed EV's are to outspeed max speed Kingambit, while shoving the rest into physdef or spdef.
The amount of pokemon this deals with in the upper tiers is honestly a godsend, depending on wether it runs physdef or spdef, it can check all of the following, or at least burning them.:

• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• (Without rock move)
• 

Obviously it's still incredibly dependant on having it's boots, but with the limited distribution of the move this gen, Moltres finds itself in a very useful niche as a defensive pivot on BO and Balance teams.
Would love to hear other people's experiences with it!

A lot of people complaing about Enamorus beating balance teams not considering using Moltres is weird, after Volc's ban is the best fairy check we have rn, even better than Clod/Glowing IMO, but as you said it is very unexplored/underrated.

 

[SnackWasTaken]

Hey Snack, did you hear that Natdex has had a suspect test on tera, and there was unexpected results because Showdown is played by a larger playerbase than those on the Smogon Forums?

No I didn’t, at least from no more than one thousand people (let’s see if we can reach this Number in the next day! I know it’s possible)

A lot of people complaing about Enamorus beating balance teams not considering using Moltres is weird, after Volc's ban is the best fairy check we have rn, even better than Clod/Glowing IMO, but as you said it is very unexplored/underrated.

Or what if you just… kill it first with scarf gholdengo