"Aggressive Stall" just feels weird as hell to me. At what point does it stop being Aggressive Stall and instead changes to Bulky Offense?
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]
- Thread starter TPP
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There is a correlation of course. But well, at some point I hope some wallbreakers will get banned. Kingambit (the most unpopular Mon currently) isn,t actually a big threat for Stall due to Dondozo, Ting-Lu and even sometimes Tusk being used there. Baxcalibur, Iron Valiant, Gholdengo and Hisuian Samurott however, would benefit. Though first they have to demonstrate being unhealthy (I do think they are more than Kingambit, but I am minority here).
I would say that more than the pressure the issue is the tools stall is missing rn, the lack of a good hazards removal means that you need to run 6 boots so you don't have options like rocky helmet to punish u-turn cores, dozo which stops most of the physical threats lacks reliable recovery (not even leftovers because you have to run boots). Overall stall got nerfed hard this gen with both, dexit and the movepool cuts, while offense got stronger.
it's bulky offense if i'm playing it and aggressive stall if my opponent is
sad fat balance noises
Deviating back toward the talk about Bisharp vs Kingambit, and how well Bisharp could be a replacement for Kingambit...
I finally got off my lazy, Slaking butt, and tested it. The entire idea of this test was to in theory see what Bisharp could really do in any given game compared to what Kingambit could've accomplished.
For the record, this was played on cart, not on ladder. The ratings of the players I played against is probably around low OU/Ubers Ladder skill at best. Take that into account when looking through the results. This was played on Link Battle Random Queue rather than Battle Spot, so that I could avoid Items Clause (which didn't come into effect here), use 6v6 format, and hopefully avoid most of the mindless Urshifu spam.
The team that I piloted has two modes: Lv50 and Lv100 (Lv50 is the standard selection for most people, as it's the most accessible.) The Pokemon selection does not change, but EVs on Skeledirge do. The team is as follows:
Lv50 Team Link // Lv100 Team Link
As I had explained before in my theorymon post in regards to my Bisharp build:
Total score ranking: 6W-1L-0D
Personal notes: Bisharp performed MUCH better than I had initially expected. I'm sure some of the results are minorly skewed due to some various forms of hax (always against me, at that), but some of them actually benefitted me quite a bit. It had a fairly consistent performance in battle, and actually put the hurt down on a number of Pokemon that looked scary to deal with. I don't necessarily think it'd be 100% a replacement, but maybe an option. It isn't as immediately threated as Supreme Overlord Kingambit, but it comes damn close at times. I ended up playing every battle out until either side forfeited from being in an unwinnable position.
Conclusion: After playing that series of battles, I've really come to respect the hell out of my Eviolite Bisharp build. There were a handful of times that I wish I had Tera Blast: Flying over Low Kick, but it overall did really well. It was able to put on the pressure, take some surprise KOs, clean up some problematic Pokemon, and still look fine as hell doing it. Don't sleep on Bisharp if Kingambit gets axed. It may not have Supreme Overlord or Gambit's absolute raw bulk, but it can still do things the King can do too.
I finally got off my lazy, Slaking butt, and tested it. The entire idea of this test was to in theory see what Bisharp could really do in any given game compared to what Kingambit could've accomplished.
For the record, this was played on cart, not on ladder. The ratings of the players I played against is probably around low OU/Ubers Ladder skill at best. Take that into account when looking through the results. This was played on Link Battle Random Queue rather than Battle Spot, so that I could avoid Items Clause (which didn't come into effect here), use 6v6 format, and hopefully avoid most of the mindless Urshifu spam.
The team that I piloted has two modes: Lv50 and Lv100 (Lv50 is the standard selection for most people, as it's the most accessible.) The Pokemon selection does not change, but EVs on Skeledirge do. The team is as follows:
Lv50 Team Link // Lv100 Team Link
As I had explained before in my theorymon post in regards to my Bisharp build:
With that out of the way, let's take a look at my various match-ups and the results of them.
Total score ranking: 6W-1L-0D
Personal notes: Bisharp performed MUCH better than I had initially expected. I'm sure some of the results are minorly skewed due to some various forms of hax (always against me, at that), but some of them actually benefitted me quite a bit. It had a fairly consistent performance in battle, and actually put the hurt down on a number of Pokemon that looked scary to deal with. I don't necessarily think it'd be 100% a replacement, but maybe an option. It isn't as immediately threated as Supreme Overlord Kingambit, but it comes damn close at times. I ended up playing every battle out until either side forfeited from being in an unwinnable position.
Vs 
This was a pretty damn scary team, honestly. Gren, Gambit, Hoppa, and Giratina were all a bit intimidating to stare down, but this player was really bad. The only major thing of note here is that Bisharp checks the Giratina, ate an Earth Power like it was nothing, and tore the dragon down by itself while keeping ~45% - 50% HP remaining. Complete 6-0 sweep.
This was a pretty damn scary team, honestly. Gren, Gambit, Hoppa, and Giratina were all a bit intimidating to stare down, but this player was really bad. The only major thing of note here is that Bisharp checks the Giratina, ate an Earth Power like it was nothing, and tore the dragon down by itself while keeping ~45% - 50% HP remaining. Complete 6-0 sweep.
Vs 
Once again, more terrors. This time on a hyper offense team. Basculegion, Moth, and Valiant were the Pokemon to be afraid of here as Bax and Tusk were easy to play around. The only thing of note here is that Bisharp actually checked the Supreme Overlord Kingambit at the end of the game by itself. No Intimidate required. They probably either read too much into potential switch (which didn't happen, it was hardly doing much to my Bisharp), or didn't carry Low Kick. Either way, another clean 6-0 sweep.
Once again, more terrors. This time on a hyper offense team. Basculegion, Moth, and Valiant were the Pokemon to be afraid of here as Bax and Tusk were easy to play around. The only thing of note here is that Bisharp actually checked the Supreme Overlord Kingambit at the end of the game by itself. No Intimidate required. They probably either read too much into potential switch (which didn't happen, it was hardly doing much to my Bisharp), or didn't carry Low Kick. Either way, another clean 6-0 sweep.
Vs 
Gren and the Dragon Bikes were the only threats here. I outplayed them at nearly every turn and they forfeited the game early on once they realized that my team was too well built to handle mindless Little Timmy shenanigans. Bisharp did not get a chance to play here, but the most it could do is Sucker Punch a Delphox, Inteleon, or Chesnaught. Unlikely to be used against Miraidon. Another flawless score game. 6-4.
Gren and the Dragon Bikes were the only threats here. I outplayed them at nearly every turn and they forfeited the game early on once they realized that my team was too well built to handle mindless Little Timmy shenanigans. Bisharp did not get a chance to play here, but the most it could do is Sucker Punch a Delphox, Inteleon, or Chesnaught. Unlikely to be used against Miraidon. Another flawless score game. 6-4.
Vs 
Absolutely scary as hell game. Everything here, except for Walking Wake, is a threat. Was actually a lot of back and forth between us, resulting in various Pokemon being traded. Bisharp switched into Flutter Mane's Life Orb, Proto: Special Attack, boosted Shadow Ball and took a -1 SpDef to activate Defiant. +2 Attack Sucker Punch then absolutely slaps the Tera Fairy Flutter Mane from 80% to 0%. Later in the game, it comes back in on Orichalcum Pulse boosted Outrage from Koraidon, eats the hit, and finishes the Koraidon off from ~10% with Sucker Punch. Immediately after, sacrifice Bisharp to Sandy Stonks for a free 50% HP chip via Sucker Punch. 2-0 victory, rough and dirty. Just how we like 'em.
Absolutely scary as hell game. Everything here, except for Walking Wake, is a threat. Was actually a lot of back and forth between us, resulting in various Pokemon being traded. Bisharp switched into Flutter Mane's Life Orb, Proto: Special Attack, boosted Shadow Ball and took a -1 SpDef to activate Defiant. +2 Attack Sucker Punch then absolutely slaps the Tera Fairy Flutter Mane from 80% to 0%. Later in the game, it comes back in on Orichalcum Pulse boosted Outrage from Koraidon, eats the hit, and finishes the Koraidon off from ~10% with Sucker Punch. Immediately after, sacrifice Bisharp to Sandy Stonks for a free 50% HP chip via Sucker Punch. 2-0 victory, rough and dirty. Just how we like 'em.
Vs 
I played exceptionally badly in this game. Bad switch calls, bad move calls, and pretty much tossed the game out the window. Everything, except for Glowking, were a threat. Bisharp actually did a bit here. Checked the hell out of Dengo, got major chip vs Hamurott and Stonks. I forfeited mid-game once I realized I had absolutely zero chance to actually do anything with what I had left. 0-4 Loss. FeelsBad.
I played exceptionally badly in this game. Bad switch calls, bad move calls, and pretty much tossed the game out the window. Everything, except for Glowking, were a threat. Bisharp actually did a bit here. Checked the hell out of Dengo, got major chip vs Hamurott and Stonks. I forfeited mid-game once I realized I had absolutely zero chance to actually do anything with what I had left. 0-4 Loss. FeelsBad.
Vs 
A terrible rain team. Absolutely rain train against them. Cinderace, Mowtom, and Turbo Fish were the only threats here. Absolutely had an easy time playing around this person once I realized their Barraskewda was Choice Band and I had plenty of answers for them. Bisharp checked the hell out of the Barasskewda, as they were more concerned with what was in front of them to think of what could come in. This resulted in Bisharp coming in on it freely TWICE on CB Psychic Fangs. Bisharp took a Trick from Mowtom, but did not give a shit about swapping Eviolite for Choice Scarf. Deleted the Mowtom, chipped an incoming Cinderace for 50% on a Night Slash, all in all, an excellent game for Bisharp. 4-0.
A terrible rain team. Absolutely rain train against them. Cinderace, Mowtom, and Turbo Fish were the only threats here. Absolutely had an easy time playing around this person once I realized their Barraskewda was Choice Band and I had plenty of answers for them. Bisharp checked the hell out of the Barasskewda, as they were more concerned with what was in front of them to think of what could come in. This resulted in Bisharp coming in on it freely TWICE on CB Psychic Fangs. Bisharp took a Trick from Mowtom, but did not give a shit about swapping Eviolite for Choice Scarf. Deleted the Mowtom, chipped an incoming Cinderace for 50% on a Night Slash, all in all, an excellent game for Bisharp. 4-0.
Vs 
This was a wonky team to face. Goltres, Duskanroc, and Haxorus were the main threats, with Toxtricity being a potential fourth threat. Eiscue I knew would just be a cheese Pokemon and Inteleon isn't going to do shit to my Gastrodon. Bisharp didn't get to play this one, but Mence put in a lot of work dropping the Dracos on these scrubs. They forfeited after losing Goltres to my Tera Steel Mence. 4-0.
This was a wonky team to face. Goltres, Duskanroc, and Haxorus were the main threats, with Toxtricity being a potential fourth threat. Eiscue I knew would just be a cheese Pokemon and Inteleon isn't going to do shit to my Gastrodon. Bisharp didn't get to play this one, but Mence put in a lot of work dropping the Dracos on these scrubs. They forfeited after losing Goltres to my Tera Steel Mence. 4-0.
Conclusion: After playing that series of battles, I've really come to respect the hell out of my Eviolite Bisharp build. There were a handful of times that I wish I had Tera Blast: Flying over Low Kick, but it overall did really well. It was able to put on the pressure, take some surprise KOs, clean up some problematic Pokemon, and still look fine as hell doing it. Don't sleep on Bisharp if Kingambit gets axed. It may not have Supreme Overlord or Gambit's absolute raw bulk, but it can still do things the King can do too.
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Literally yes I have. The thing is, everything else will kill it.Has anyone considered wigglytuff as an anti pult Mon? It's a hard counter to pretty much every set it runs apart from banded with psychic fangs. It's also got wish passing and sponges special moves that don't have too much power behind them.
Wigglytuff @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Frisk
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dazzling Gleam
- Wish
- Protect
- Thunder Wave
A set like this works quite well on fatter teams, or even stall in niche cases as a kinda special alomomola. Frisk is got for scouting choices set, and did I mention it gets rocks? Like if you want wiggly in ou
Also might post RMT with this guy :)
Don’t get me going on Mr Rime
from what little i know of the guy, this suggestion is the smogon forum equivalent of walking into a political debate and saying "you know what would really spice things up? summoning cthulhu"
What the hell did he do
Wait what did he do
Unban eleki, espathra and volcarona but ban tera ice/water on eleki, fighting/fairy on pathra and water/ground on Rona
oh yeah also unban rayquaza incase they find a new tera to abuse 1 base 150 attack espeed should handle them
I voted yes in the survey precisely because of this in a vein hope that when we do get the suspect test once it's done it'll at least quieten the crowd down a touch so we can talk about something else.
Moltres is cool, just wanna point out that you 100% need to slot in Brave Bird on your moveset, probably over U-Turn, otherwise you straight-up lose to CM Enamorus, trust me, I actually tested this with someone. You don't even need the Moonblast SpA drop, if you CM on the switch, Moltres's Flamethrower just can't keep up with the CM stacking since Enamorus can just CM again on the turn Moltres attacks and +4 Moonblast 2HKOes. BB, however, always 2HKOes Enamorus and prevents it from setting up, and also does more damage to Valiant.I've personally been loving using Moltres in the last few days. Initially got somewhat introduced to it by Blunder running it on like all his teams, but it ended up being quite a useful mon.
Moltres @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 248 HP / 248 SpD / 12 Spe OR EVs: 248 HP / 248 Def / 12 Spe
Calm Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Flamethrower
- U-turn
- Roost
Speed EV's are to outspeed max speed Kingambit, while shoving the rest into physdef or spdef.
The amount of pokemon this deals with in the upper tiers is honestly a godsend, depending on wether it runs physdef or spdef, it can check all of the following, or at least burning them.:
Obviously it's still incredibly dependant on having it's boots, but with the limited distribution of the move this gen, Moltres finds itself in a very useful niche as a defensive pivot on BO and Balance teams.
(Without rock move)
Would love to hear other people's experiences with it!
If you don't believe me, check the calcs. Flamethrower at +2 SpD + Flamethrower at +3 SpD + Flamethrower at +4 SpD + Flamethrower at +4 SpD doesn't kill unless you crit or burn Enamorus. And this is for SpD Moltres, if Moltres is physically defensive, it loses 1v1 without Brave Bird. Enamorus is more likely than not to 2HKO phsyically defensive Moltres at +2, and Flamethrower at +1 SpD + Flamethrower at +2 SpD + Flamethrower at +2 SpD doesn't pick up the kill either
Now, if Moltres got Mystical Fire... then we'd be talking
(All this being said, this annumes whatever Enamorus player you face know how to beat Moltres with Enamorus and knows those specific calcs, so in practice, they're usually switching out or Moonblasting too early / too late)
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This combo can work great with the subdd ice body set. For teammates, anything that appreciates fsight can work well, in addition to a good kingambit check.
Appreciates as in a dark type? Or something that threatens the opponents switch to a dark type?
Most likely something that wants for force them into a Dark type. Maybe Tusk + FSight Glowking?
Ok ok,
Did I get that right? (Just checking if this makes sense im trying to learn)
Ok so you force the dark type to switch in and then you put in a counter (mon with a fighting move) to threaten the dark type staying in
Did I get that right? (Just checking if this makes sense im trying to learn)
Yeah, usually the other player will try to put a dark or steel type in turn future sight hits so you would be looking for having a mon that prevents that like Tusk.
Mega Breloom has it right. Fighting is the best pairing with it, as you immediately threaten the incoming Steel/Dark type meant to tank the incoming Future Sight hit. If they have a Dengo, then you'll need to work around that too.
Yo wait..... Screen Cleaner goes kind of hard
After playing the ladder quite a bit, Kingambit is a bit much (definitely centralizing). I feel like if Kingambit ends up not getting banned there should at least be Tera Preview at the end of the eventual tera suspect test (if it happens), tera preview would literally fix so much stuff on these end game matchups. (And you still get to keep the gen 9 mechanic untouched)
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