Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

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awyp said:
After playing the ladder quite a bit, Kingambit is a bit much (definitely centralizing). I feel like if Kingambit ends up not getting banned there should at least be Tera Preview at the end of the eventual tera suspect test (if it happens), tera preview would literally fix so much stuff on these end game matchups. (And you still get to keep the gen 9 mechanic untouched)
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Yeah, i'd love to see a Kingambit + Tera Preview double-suspect. I have no idea if the tier leaders are allowed to pair suspects in that manner, but Preview seems like it'd have wide enough support where it would be preferable to both its own test and any sort of quick-action.

Just get the votes together, make sure qualified voters actually support Preview, and decide what the hell to do with Gambit in the meanwhile. Mon is absurdly strong in endgame scenarios.
 
Rootb said:
Yeah, i'd love to see a Kingambit + Tera Preview double-suspect. I have no idea if the tier leaders are allowed to pair suspects in that manner, but Preview seems like it'd have wide enough support where it would be preferable to both its own test and any sort of quick-action.

Just get the votes together, make sure qualified voters actually support Preview, and decide what the hell to do with Gambit in the meanwhile. Mon is absurdly strong in endgame scenarios.
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Literally zero people oppose tera preview. There are zero people who would be upset about it becoming the norm. The only argument that exists against it is "it won't solve all the problems of Tera" which is likely true but is not an obstacle with the alternative being no action. "Blind Tera" is a concept that ONLY exists on Smogon at this point. A suspect is not a necessary prerequisite to adding tera preview, and spending 2 weeks in a suspect where the 2 options are tera preview and no action would be a waste of time and a waste of a suspect, akin to suspecting Flutter Mane or Palafin. We all know unrestricted tera is an issue and we should make the council feel comfortable "quick restricting" this mechanic since this action would be one that no one opposes.

we need tera preview passed as quickly as possible. We can assess from there if more action is necessary, but there is zero reason to not implement tera preview right now.
 
Eeveeto said:
No point in continuing reading the post, I for example oppose Tera preview or any nerf to Tera at all. Pretty sure I am not the only one. There is a difference between accepting something after it happens and not opposing to it before it happens.
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Is that because of Tera Preview's potential impact? Or on principle?
 
The people saying Tera Preview is still a problem is because it doesn't get rid of the potential option to tera. Take the example of you have a Great Tusk, and the opponent has a King Gambit. Without Tera preview you don't know its tera, and you don't know if they have a flying, fire, dark, steel.. tera type. This gives your opponent the options of staying, tera, or switching. Since each of them could be likely to happen the game will be nearly unpredictable from your view of the battle. Do you attack? Do you switch? It doesn't give you any information because it is so unpredictable

Now with Tera preview, you know that this King Gambit has a Tera Flying. Now the options come down to stay, switch or Tera Flying. This could be advantageous to you because have ice spinner on your Great Tusk. But your opponent has the option to not tera entirely. So next turn is as much of a coin flip as the turn without tera preview. So overall, tera preview does supply information, but it doesn't touch the main issue with tera; which is changing your typing and throwing your play out the window (as well as giving coverage to mons that don't have access to it).

Much like Eeveeto, I would love to have no action on Tera because it's a great feeling when you prepare a tera for a specific match up and it happens, as well as the added 2x STAB. But if action NEEDS to happen then I would prefer Tera Preview over an outright ban. However, I think a better solution would be to ban Tera Blast instead of the mechanic of terastylization, I haven't seen much discussion on this avenue because everyone is angry over Tera Preview/Bans.

Edit: Shoot I also forgot to address your comment on suspecting in Tera Preview. I think there should always be a suspect if your touching Tera. Because of how important Tera is to the meta game you have to deal with it methodically. As I have said before, the way they should deal with it is a suspect with preview, then another suspect of no tera. There should not be any thing else going on besides these two suspects when they happening, because the current meta needs to be in a controlled state to view the impact of removing tera.
 
Hello everyone. A couple days ago I was reading a conversation in this thread about boots, and the inefficacy of item clauses. However, I've always thought the answer was clear, and I'd like to share with you.
Think about what heavy duty boots are, they are boots that you wear to prevent hazard damage. How do you wear boots? On your feet. The issue at hand is clear. How can pokemon that have too many feet or not enough feet utilize heavy duty boots? I've outsourced some illustrations to help convey my point.
1689193268921.png
1689193413576.png

Take toxapex or gastrodon for example. The pokedex entry will tell us "Toxapex crawls along the ocean floor on its 12 legs." You know what comes with legs? Feet. Even giving toxapex the benefit of the doubt and saying it keeps the front 2 legs off the floor, heavy duty boots should clearly only provide a 20% damage reduction for hazards since 2/10 of its feet are protected. If you want to argue gastrodon has feet, it has 6. The 2 boots provided only protect 2 of its nubs. With 2/6 nubs covered, it should only receive a 33% reduction in hazards damage. If you want to say gastrodon has no feet, then how does it wear boots at all? How exactly are boots protecting these mons from hazard damage in its entirety? If you want more boots, you need to sacrifice an item slot on a different pokemon in exchange for 2 more.
1689193795852.png

Dragonite is a pokemon with 2 feet. This guy can use heavy duty boots as intended, with 2/2 feet covered and a 100% reduction in hazard damage. Toxapex and gastrodon WISH they could wear boots like this, but they simply don't have the body type. The only reason Gamefreak failed to add a distinction between number of legs for pokemon wearing boots is the 80 year old chained up Nintendo workers coding on their typewriters couldn't meet time constraints. We can succeed where they failed. Not only would gameplay in gen 9 OU improve due to increased item diversity, but we could also unban volcarona since it can't properly wear boots. Quite frankly, we would probably fix gen 8 OU entirely with this one change. This would feed generations. Contact your local council members today about realistic boots clause.
 
Eeveeto said:
As the post says, I am against ANY action on Tera. Of course, if action comes, I will defend Tera Preview over Full Ban, but I still prefer Tera unrestricted. I will continue playing the game even if Tera is fully banned, but I will make every possible effort to avoid any type of action on Tera.
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Classic Eeveeto, for people who are not familiar with this legendary user. This is nothing less then standard Eeveeto, the same user who said Iron Treads > Great Tusk.
 
Lifeismyth said:
Hello everyone. A couple days ago I was reading a conversation in this thread about boots, and the inefficacy of item clauses. However, I've always thought the answer was clear, and I'd like to share with you.
Think about what heavy duty boots are, they are boots that you wear to prevent hazard damage. How do you wear boots? On your feet. The issue at hand is clear. How can pokemon that have too many feet or not enough feet utilize heavy duty boots? I've outsourced some illustrations to help convey my point.
View attachment 534047 View attachment 534049
Take toxapex or gastrodon for example. The pokedex entry will tell us "Toxapex crawls along the ocean floor on its 12 legs." You know what comes with legs? Feet. Even giving toxapex the benefit of the doubt and saying it keeps the front 2 legs off the floor, heavy duty boots should clearly only provide a 20% damage reduction for hazards since 2/10 of its feet are protected. If you want to argue gastrodon has feet, it has 6. The 2 boots provided only protect 2 of its nubs. With 2/6 nubs covered, it should only receive a 33% reduction in hazards damage. If you want to say gastrodon has no feet, then how does it wear boots at all? How exactly are boots protecting these mons from hazard damage in its entirety? If you want more boots, you need to sacrifice an item slot on a different pokemon in exchange for 2 more.
View attachment 534053
Dragonite is a pokemon with 2 feet. This guy can use heavy duty boots as intended, with 2/2 feet covered and a 100% reduction in hazard damage. Toxapex and gastrodon WISH they could wear boots like this, but they simply don't have the body type. The only reason Gamefreak failed to add a distinction between number of legs for pokemon wearing boots is the 80 year old chained up Nintendo workers coding on their typewriters couldn't meet time constraints. We can succeed where they failed. Not only would gameplay in gen 9 OU improve due to increased item diversity, but we could also unban volcarona since it can't properly wear boots. Quite frankly, we would probably fix gen 8 OU entirely with this one change. This would feed generations. Contact your local council members today about realistic boots clause.
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*Loads pistol*
Show me the toxapex feet pics or the goofy dragon gets it, I know you got them outsourced as well
 
Lifeismyth said:
Hello everyone. A couple days ago I was reading a conversation in this thread about boots, and the inefficacy of item clauses. However, I've always thought the answer was clear, and I'd like to share with you.
Think about what heavy duty boots are, they are boots that you wear to prevent hazard damage. How do you wear boots? On your feet. The issue at hand is clear. How can pokemon that have too many feet or not enough feet utilize heavy duty boots? I've outsourced some illustrations to help convey my point.
View attachment 534047 View attachment 534049
Take toxapex or gastrodon for example. The pokedex entry will tell us "Toxapex crawls along the ocean floor on its 12 legs." You know what comes with legs? Feet. Even giving toxapex the benefit of the doubt and saying it keeps the front 2 legs off the floor, heavy duty boots should clearly only provide a 20% damage reduction for hazards since 2/10 of its feet are protected. If you want to argue gastrodon has feet, it has 6. The 2 boots provided only protect 2 of its nubs. With 2/6 nubs covered, it should only receive a 33% reduction in hazards damage. If you want to say gastrodon has no feet, then how does it wear boots at all? How exactly are boots protecting these mons from hazard damage in its entirety? If you want more boots, you need to sacrifice an item slot on a different pokemon in exchange for 2 more.
View attachment 534053
Dragonite is a pokemon with 2 feet. This guy can use heavy duty boots as intended, with 2/2 feet covered and a 100% reduction in hazard damage. Toxapex and gastrodon WISH they could wear boots like this, but they simply don't have the body type. The only reason Gamefreak failed to add a distinction between number of legs for pokemon wearing boots is the 80 year old chained up Nintendo workers coding on their typewriters couldn't meet time constraints. We can succeed where they failed. Not only would gameplay in gen 9 OU improve due to increased item diversity, but we could also unban volcarona since it can't properly wear boots. Quite frankly, we would probably fix gen 8 OU entirely with this one change. This would feed generations. Contact your local council members today about realistic boots clause.
Click to expand...
What about stuff that don’t have feet like Amoong, Enam, Glimm
 
Lifeismyth said:
Hello everyone. A couple days ago I was reading a conversation in this thread about boots, and the inefficacy of item clauses. However, I've always thought the answer was clear, and I'd like to share with you.
Think about what heavy duty boots are, they are boots that you wear to prevent hazard damage. How do you wear boots? On your feet. The issue at hand is clear. How can pokemon that have too many feet or not enough feet utilize heavy duty boots? I've outsourced some illustrations to help convey my point.
View attachment 534047 View attachment 534049
Take toxapex or gastrodon for example. The pokedex entry will tell us "Toxapex crawls along the ocean floor on its 12 legs." You know what comes with legs? Feet. Even giving toxapex the benefit of the doubt and saying it keeps the front 2 legs off the floor, heavy duty boots should clearly only provide a 20% damage reduction for hazards since 2/10 of its feet are protected. If you want to argue gastrodon has feet, it has 6. The 2 boots provided only protect 2 of its nubs. With 2/6 nubs covered, it should only receive a 33% reduction in hazards damage. If you want to say gastrodon has no feet, then how does it wear boots at all? How exactly are boots protecting these mons from hazard damage in its entirety? If you want more boots, you need to sacrifice an item slot on a different pokemon in exchange for 2 more.
View attachment 534053
Dragonite is a pokemon with 2 feet. This guy can use heavy duty boots as intended, with 2/2 feet covered and a 100% reduction in hazard damage. Toxapex and gastrodon WISH they could wear boots like this, but they simply don't have the body type. The only reason Gamefreak failed to add a distinction between number of legs for pokemon wearing boots is the 80 year old chained up Nintendo workers coding on their typewriters couldn't meet time constraints. We can succeed where they failed. Not only would gameplay in gen 9 OU improve due to increased item diversity, but we could also unban volcarona since it can't properly wear boots. Quite frankly, we would probably fix gen 8 OU entirely with this one change. This would feed generations. Contact your local council members today about realistic boots clause.
Click to expand...
so what would we do about hitmontop? it can wear boots but they shouldn't affect anything because it stands on its head. i know hitmontop isn't in the game right now but these are the kinds of hurdles we're going to need to overcome if we want to save ou from the scourge of unrealistic boot-wearing
 
awyp said:
Classic Eeveeto, for people who are not familiar with this legendary user. This is nothing less then standard Eeveeto, the same user who said Iron Treads > Great Tusk.
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To be fair, at the start of the gen Treads was better in a lot of match ups (always outspeeding scarf chi-yu with booster or a spin was super good to keep the fish in check) but with some bans and some additions to the tier those match ups became bad for Treads.
 
Finchinator said:
Boots save the tier from lack of removal and shouldn’t be touched
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You see, back in my gen 4 day, we didnt have no fancy boots, or even defog to clear hazards. We had rapid spin, and we liked it. Nowadays we have defog, rapid spin, and even boots if you want to ignore hazards entirely! I dare say, y'all're coddled with how easy hazards are to ignore or remove.

Now, seriously this time, are we any more hazard encumbered than prior gens, bar 8 because galar gave us timbs?
 
DynamaxBestMeta said:
You see, back in my gen 4 day, we didnt have no fancy boots, or even defog to clear hazards. We had rapid spin, and we liked it. Nowadays we have defog, rapid spin, and even boots if you want to ignore hazards entirely! I dare say, y'all're coddled with how easy hazards are to ignore or remove.

Now, seriously this time, are we any more hazard encumbered than prior gens, bar 8 because galar gave us timbs?
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boots showed us a world where stuff weak to rock can be viable without needing some sort of absurdly good tech/gimmick to compensate. i refuse to go back
 
Mega Breloom said:
All I'm getting from this is that the council doesn't want to give Maushold the spot it deserves as the king of OU by being the only hazard removal option that doesn't care about the cheese string.
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the anti-maushold bias was clear from day 1 when they didn't unban king's rock. shame on the council for letting their competitive decisions get in the way of my personal opinions
 
DynamaxBestMeta said:
are we any more hazard encumbered than prior gens
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The only reliable hazard removers are Cinderace, Maushold and sometimes Great Tusk (even if you kill Gholdengo, it's still usually very difficult to spin if Tusk is pressured by the very offensive spike stack offenses)

Only 40.46% of Great Tusk clicked rapid spin even once during the last round of World Cup
 
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