Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

[Mushfiq]

3.05 qualified is easily enough to keep it in talks, but also we didn’t even include it in this survey since we were more focused on the first vote this week

I understand the reasoning behind wanting a Volcarona ban. However, since public opinion produced such a borderline score, with the qualified voter score barely over 3, is it really fair consideration of community opinion to put it on the quick ban voting table a second time?

I feel like a full fledged suspect test would more accurately be in line with public sentiment if the council feels Volcarona is a problematic presence. But not a quick ban.

I don't know if there is a specific threshold outlined that connects the public opinion survey score to the act of taking tiering action. But if there isn't one, then I feel like two different objective threshold should be there that qualifies Pokemon to be on the quick ban table and suspect test table separately.

 

[Lectrys]

Question though, what is the best way to counter Trick Room teams that rely on Ursaluna sweeping? That mon is way too strong.

I've found that Goodra-H potently works as an anti-Trick Room lead. Heavy Slam ensures that no Fairy-type TR setter wants to stay in on you, and those who do get OHKOed. Dragon Tail boots out the rest before they can use TR, thanks to its somehow-not-rock-bottom negative priority. Put an Assault Vest on this bad boy and all you need is HP investment to make Heatran look uncomfortable. You have to give up on at least one of appreciably denting Heatran, Corviknight, or arbitrary switch-ins like Urshifu-R with this Goodra-H kit, though. Not even a mid-ground like Body Press dents Corviknight hard enough, even if you invest nearly all the rest of your EVs into Defense and go Relaxed.

Ursaluna with no Trick Room will probably still KO one mon, but bulky offence and balance should probably be able to keep the casualty number to 1, let alone hyper offence.

 

[TakunHiwatari]

Long time lurker and I'll be the first to admit that my opinion doesn't matter, but I'll throw in my 2 cents on Terra.

It is a divisive topic in general, but to me it seems like Terra Blast is what pushes the mechanic over the edge. When discussing offensive threats like Volcarona, Terra Blast is what proves to be the X factor when checking it. In the past this mon has been good, but manageable. You KNOW the thing is gonna be a Special Attacker with Quiver Dance, a Fire type STAB, 1 or 2 coverage moves, and maybe something like Substitute or WoW. The problem now is that one of it's coverage moves can be literally anything, and impossible to account for.

Without Terra Blast, you can reliably consider the offensive possibilities of the mon you wanna check. You could argue that Volcarona can still "handpick it's counters" depending on it's set, but it would be within the confines of it's established movepool.

Removing Terra Blast doesn't negate it's offensive uses either. Turning a coverage move into a STAB or giving one of your existing STABs an Adaptability boost is nothing to scoff at. And I don't think I need to get into the defensive uses of Terra, that seems pretty well established.


TLDR; removing Terra Blast would keep the Terra mechanic around in a good way that's fair to both Offensive and Defensive styles of play, without completely favoring one over the other. I think a Terra Blast suspect should be on the radar.

 

[LoseToRU?]

On the upcoming tiering radar, it is likely we include again despite it not getting support last time. In addition, I personally plan to vote ban on Volcarona this weekend and I think others within the council are discussing/considering their options as well. My guess is that it stays OU, but as a community we should seriously assess this Pokemon and its antics a bit further moving forward.

Volcarona was drowned out a bit by the hype of new toys and the overbearing nature of the first couple of broken Pokemon perhaps, but it has retained and arguably gained viability and effectiveness with the transition from pre-HOME to post-HOME.

I already believed that Volcarona was broken prior to HOME, but it was so close that we never had time for a formal suspect test on it. Now we have a fresh metagame, but it has adapted with Tera Water or even Tera Ground offensively while even occasionally running Tera Ghost for ESpeed revenge killers.

Offensively, it can handpick its own counters. Scared of Heatran walking normal moves? Tera Water and Tera Ground do the trick. Skeledirge falls into the same boat, of course. Scared of revenge killers with priority? You can run Substitute for Sucker Punch or Tera Ghost for ESpeed as I mentioned before while hardly any scarfers do the trick after a Quiver Dance. Even things like Clodsire can lose to Substitute + Tera Grass, but at least this and bulkier variants have fallen out of favor with Heatran’s release. Given this, there is at least some counterplay and some intuition that can allow for eliminating some options or forming a hypothesis as to what Tera and set it may be. But is: that enough? I don’t really think so.

Yes, Tera is the overall problem here, but it’s not being reassessed for a little longer. Yes, Zama-H and maybe a few others are also just as, if not even more, problematic. But we need to consider changing the narrative on Volcarona. It’s unreasonable right now.

These are the kind of radar posts we need more of, ty king.

If we really are going to keep tera, then we gotta start looking at these "pick your own counter" mons.
It was 100% broken pre-Home, and broken checks broken wasn't applying to Volc, unless you count broken Nite.

If we keep tera, then MU Moth can't stay, and then we need to move on and examine stuff like Gambit, Val, Nite, Garg, etc.
Keeping tera only makes sense if we lower the power level down and I think Volc is an excellent place to start.

Volcarona is emblematic of everything wrong with Tera: too many viable sets that punish too hard. I think we're all familiar with the experience of bringing in your Volc check (e.g. bulky Cinderace) and then it Teras into one of its 8 viable Tera types and you lose. However, every pokemon does this to an extent. Volc is special because it can win games with so very little setup, but stuff like Iron Hands, Ceruledge, Baxcalibur, Gholdengo, any of our dragons, basically anything that uses setup moves can abuse Tera to get free turns or to blow past checks. To deal with these pokemon reliably, you not only have to have something that can beat their regular form, but also something that can beat them with Tera and setup. For example, Iron Hands is normally checked by Great Tusk, until it Teras Flying and then you're tasked with dealing with +2 Drain Punch and Wild Charge on this Pokemon with gargantuan bulk. On the flip side, stuff like Sandy Shocks and the now-banned Regieleki can abuse Tera to get unresisted coverage. But these Pokemon still have weaknesses: Sandy Shocks falls to anything faster thanks to its frail bulk and Iron Hands gets beaten by strong neutral hits repeatedly. The issue is that you have 6 pokemon on your team that can Tera for no cost. If you are facing a team that isn't favorable to one of your pokemon Teraing and sweeping, then you can just not Tera that pokemon and use it with something else. The other part of Tera that I feel is uncompetitive is that for pokemon like Volc, it's unpredictable which Tera type they are even in-game. Do you bring out your Dondozo and risk falling to Tera Grass or do you bring out your Clodsire and risk falling to Tera Ground, assuming you have both in the first place? Whichever you choose, if you predict wrong, your wall is dead.
Tl;dr- tera too hard to deal with in the teambuilder and unpredictability is dumb in games

I just won a gen 7 OU room tour, and damn dude.. it was really nice to just hit the mon in front of me, instead of the mon it might become..

It was nice being able to predict their switch into another mon vs them staying in and becoming another mon.

Tera could be a fun OM, and we could still have Tera tours for fun, but good lord it's incredibly refreshing to just play mons instead of whatever tf tera meta is.

 

[tigers jaw]

i’m still yet to be given a valid argument as to why tera should be given the special treatment it is by many people, in terms of attempting to preserve it via normalisation.

does anyone have one, at all? here are answers that are unacceptable:

- it’s a “generational mechanic”. totally meaningless.
- it’s “fun” (lol).
- it adds diversity. not really, & there is a balance to be struck between a hyper-centralised metagame & an oversaturated one, as both are detrimental to one’s ability to prepare for expected threats, thus leading to matchup volatility becoming an unacceptable influence in game-outcomes (see: uncompetitive, the minimisation of player choice in the results of matches.)

once again, to treat tera in this manner collapses smogon’s foundational principles regarding tiering - leading us to a morass of directionless tiering.

 

[Finchinator]

I understand the reasoning behind wanting a Volcarona ban. However, since public opinion produced such a borderline score, with the qualified voter score barely over 3, is it really fair consideration of community opinion to put it on the quick ban voting table a second time?

What he quoted was a pre-HOME survey, which is entirely unrelated to the ongoing one. I feel this was taken out of context a bit. Volcarona is not included on the current survey as it was not up for an “emergency ban” like the Zama forms or Chien-Pao. It’ll be included in the radar alongside everything else that was in the initial radar that remains unbanned in all likelihood, but that’ll be the last vote before suspects can begin.

 

[Ehmcee]

“generational gimmick” or “generational mechanic” is a totally arbitrary categorisation that, realistically, could be applied to anything that comes with any new generation. it serves no purpose other than to further the (fallacious) idea that tera is worthy of special treatment, rather than being viewed in the same lense as any other element.

basically, it is more a political & rhetorical mechanism than a Real Thing.

Saying that generational mechanics are totally arbitrary is definitely not accurate in regards to what the general consensus of them currently is.
Mega Evolution, Z-Moves, Dynamax and Terastalisation all give you a unique "5th option" in the attack menu, while they all do different things, these 4 mechanics all share that core feature that is shared by no other mechanic or item in the pokemon franchise.

 

[carbonlifeform]

Another day, another batch of matches where Bulky Tera Fairy Roaring Moon absolutely tears ish up:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1880399782 (sweeps Sun)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1880235016 (forces Zama C in, letting me force its tera and remove Dauntless shield with Iron Hands, bulk lets it use Glowking as recovery/setup fodder once Zama is gone)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1880527665-fh5j9216wg727z8ghtf6czb3mao5boypw (uses Volc as an entry point and sweeps)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1880546991-ap6n49wxctatv0t7qcs8s5l5k1vbrdppw (again, Volc is just an open invitation)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1880536817-oa9odjplgoydqap2mb56jk3vhgfd0hrpw (this game was over as soon as I knew Gholdengo was scarf)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1880540378 (I screwed up and forgot this was offensive Tusk, otherwise Moon probably sweeps, even while managing Salt Cure damage)

Let this be a mea culpa from me: I was pretty confident during the original suspect that Tera Blast was hardly blip on the radar of what makes Tera broken, but it's just getting dumber over time. This set shouldn't be possible, and I'm both happy that I've got a while longer to enjoy this demon and v excited for when the calendar opens up enough for us to suspect this mechanic again and get it out of here.

 

[kosecant]

i’m still yet to be given a valid argument as to why tera should be given the special treatment it is by many people, in terms of attempting to preserve it via normalisation.

does anyone have one, at all? here are answers that are unacceptable:

- it’s a “generational mechanic”. totally meaningless.
- it’s “fun” (lol).
- it adds diversity. not really, & there is a balance to be struck between a hyper-centralised metagame & an oversaturated one, as both are detrimental to one’s ability to prepare for expected threats, thus leading to matchup volatility becoming an unacceptable influence in game-outcomes (see: uncompetitive, the minimisation of player choice in the results of matches.)

once again, to treat tera in this manner collapses smogon’s foundational principles regarding tiering - leading us to a morass of directionless tiering.

You talk a ton about policy, yet you conveniently forget that banning anything that isn’t a Pokémon has a significantly higher burden of proof, which includes generational mechanics. In the majority of Pokémon bans so far Tera has not been the major factor in their ban, with the exceptions of annihilape and espathra (who could be argued to be completely stupid without it but regardless it was definitely a major reason for both of those bans). Dynamax was very clearly the breaking factor in gen 8, as any Pokémon with a decent attacking stat and a stab water/fire/flying move could single handedly sweep entire teams. Tera is nowhere near that level of broken, hence the high burden of proof.

 

[tigers jaw]

the very idea that they are “5th options” makes them distinct & worthy of special consideration is ALSO an arbitrary choice of yours.

“5th options” are even well-established by this point with the very examples you listed, so the idea that such a factor makes them generational in themselves is self-defeating at this point.

edit: kosecant did you read my post? nothing you said even addresses the contents of it. within it i’m not arguing about whether to ban/not ban, i’m talking about the privileges tera is being given with regards to tiering approach.

anyway this is my last post on this topic until the next suspect/pr thread.

 

[Pando067]

Was there enough support from the survey to have it on the radar / quickban table? last time on the survey it didn't even reach a 3/5 on action support (overall votes).

Response data: (Prior survey)

• Qualified: 3.05/5
• General: 2.91/5

exactly, I haven't seen volc in 3 years lmao

 

[singaporygon]

Another day, another batch of matches where Bulky Tera Fairy Roaring Moon absolutely tears ish up:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1880399782 (sweeps Sun)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1880235016 (forces Zama C in, letting me force its tera and remove Dauntless shield with Iron Hands, bulk lets it use Glowking as recovery/setup fodder once Zama is gone)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1880527665-fh5j9216wg727z8ghtf6czb3mao5boypw (uses Volc as an entry point and sweeps)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1880546991-ap6n49wxctatv0t7qcs8s5l5k1vbrdppw (again, Volc is just an open invitation)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1880536817-oa9odjplgoydqap2mb56jk3vhgfd0hrpw (this game was over as soon as I knew Gholdengo was scarf)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1880540378 (I screwed up and forgot this was offensive Tusk, otherwise Moon probably sweeps, even while managing Salt Cure damage)

Let this be a mea culpa from me: I was pretty confident during the original suspect that Tera Blast was hardly blip on the radar of what makes Tera broken, but it's just getting dumber over time. This set shouldn't be possible, and I'm both happy that I've got a while longer to enjoy this demon and v excited for when the calendar opens up enough for us to suspect this mechanic again and get it out of here.

Sorry, but I just have to say these replays don't prove that Tera is broken. Alot of your opponents teams weren't that well prepared for common cores in the general meta, they didn't use one of the (small) handful of fat mons nor priority users that tend to check most moons decently, and some of the opps seemed to waste their tera instead of taking tera moon into account.

On the other hand, you played well for sure, and thanks for sharing this good Moon set.

 

[kosecant]

the very idea that they are “5th options” makes them distinct & worthy of special consideration is ALSO an arbitrary choice of yours.

“5th options” are even well-established by this point with the very examples you listed, so the idea that such a factor makes them generational in themselves is self-defeating at this point.

edit: kosecant did you read my post? nothing you said even addresses the contents of it. within it i’m not arguing about whether to ban/not ban, i’m talking about the privileges tera is being given with regards to tiering approach.

anyway this is my last post on this topic until the next suspect/pr thread.

the very idea that they are “5th options” makes them distinct & worthy of special consideration is ALSO an arbitrary choice of yours.

“5th options” are even well-established by this point with the very examples you listed, so the idea that such a factor makes them generational in themselves is self-defeating at this point.

edit: kosecant did you read my post? nothing you said even addresses the contents of it. within it i’m not arguing about whether to ban/not ban, i’m talking about the privileges tera is being given with regards to tiering approach.

anyway this is my last post on this topic until the next suspect/pr thread.

 

[ant4456]

i’ve been active in all post-bw gens in both building & playing, & volcarona, honestly, has always struck me as a uniquely problematic presence in terms of preparation & playing around. limited checks, many of which it has always had the means to circumvent (albeit not to this insane degree), always far more pressing than its peers to respond to whilst setting up/positioning around giving it opportunities, & far less forgiving in terms of lose-conditions for the non-volc player.

i would 100% support retroactive action on it in bw, oras, sm, & ss.

volcarona just on preview will always make half of a player's actions pretty much impossible because 1 free turn can end the entire game against entire teams, tera absolutely is a major buff to volcarona, and why we are having this conversation, but i would be down for a restriction in like every OU tier

 

[Liz Angeles]

i’m still yet to be given a valid argument as to why tera should be given the special treatment it is by many people, in terms of attempting to preserve it via normalisation.

does anyone have one, at all? here are answers that are unacceptable:

- it’s a “generational mechanic”. totally meaningless.
- it’s “fun” (lol).
- it adds diversity. not really, & there is a balance to be struck between a hyper-centralised metagame & an oversaturated one, as both are detrimental to one’s ability to prepare for expected threats, thus leading to matchup volatility becoming an unacceptable influence in game-outcomes (see: uncompetitive, the minimisation of player choice in the results of matches.)

once again, to treat tera in this manner collapses smogon’s foundational principles regarding tiering - leading us to a morass of directionless tiering.

I just don't think its broken bro, I don't need to convince you its good for the game or whatever. If you wanna argue its broken off the basis of being uncompetitive/ minimising player choice in the results of matches then cool, that's your perogative, I'm not obligated to prove otherwise, particularly when you just state it as fact without giving any reason as to why you think this. I just don't get what the point of constantly posting stuff like this is, looking for responses just to flame people.

 

[YubelVT]

ok I'm gonna say the most obvious statement ever: there is no fucking hazard removal in this format. like unironically triple elephant cores of donphan tusk and treads would not surprise me because of how little removal there is on good pokemon

 

[Ast0rga]

Please no tera ban
tera fun
tera gen 9 niche mechanic
tera water swords dance booster energy iron valiant liquidation fun
tera grass heatran fun
tera water basculegion fun
tera flying acrobatics fun
tera ghost spikes setter fun
tera last moment defensive tera to win the game fun
pls no ban

 

[I am New]

Enamorus

Enamorus @ Heavy-Duty Boots/Expert Belt
Ability: Cute Charm
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Earth Power
- Mystical Fire
- Calm Mind/Taunt/Healing Wish

Another mon that vaguely picked my interest, especially for being a fast specially offensive fairy with coverage moves most such fairies would kill for; I've seen many people both consider the mon banworthy, and others consider it not even ou material. Me, personally? I consider it just ok; its speed tier is solid, but not the best -good reason to use webs with it!- and while its damage output is solid, its strongest stab is 95 bp -its signature move is 100 bp, but the accuracy....- off of 135 spa with no directly boosting ability. Regardless, said stab moonblast is flawlessly complemented by earth power and mystical fire as the ideal coverage moves alongside fairy stab- move types that the often-compared valiant would kill for without tera. The chosen tera type here is firmly ground type, to boost earth power to a level of 2hkoing skeledirge/almost 2hkoing clodsire/sometimes ohkoing kingambit (though many people are catching up to this fact, so be careful of when/if you tera ground with it!). In the last slot, calm mind requires you to not run contrary to give you the only non-item way of boosting your damage output on the special side. This also has the hilarious side effect of punishing any contact move mons with a male gender- infatuation has never been relevant in ou up until this point, however this mon alone may force this change upon the meta to not run the risk of giving it free turns if you get unlucky enough (for the curious, cute charm is static but for attract instead, which is basically a paralysis sidegrade as long as you stay in). If you don't run calm mind, as long as you're not running superpower, you can just opt for either ability- contrary's best use would be to counter random moonblasts/mirror armor corv. I've been using cm on it to really reinforce the mon's cleaning power- with webs up, its main issue in speed is migitated, letting it fully flex its power upon the rest of the tier- and you better believe it's gonna hurt. Other possible set alternatives could include sub/taunt>mystical fire if you're not worried about corv somehow (you should tbh, it's still as ubiquitous as ever), letting you own bulky owns even more effectively. Other tera types include fire/steel, mostly to flip your ice weakness and trump over chien pao/dire claw (tera ground won't prevent its balanced sleep effect after all...), but I strongly suggest sticking with ground for the aforementioned reasons (just watch out if you need the mon to check/rkill urshifu-rapid, you don't wanna risk getting picked off by jet even faster). Ebelt is also slashed as an option for greater immediate damage output, further supported by how many things your 3 attacks already hit super effectively. The rocks weakness can oftentimes be hard to ignore, though.... And lastly, I'm not really a fan of purely physical sets on the mon; like yeah contrary superpower seems appealing and all, but it's running off the mon's lower attack stat which personally seems like a waste (the mon gets focus blast if you want fighting coverage btw), especially since your best stab is then play rough, which bounces off of tusk, dauntless shield mons and can even miss, while making you vulnerable to burns. Not to mentioned you need tera blast for physical ground coverage, which can be restricting (not necessarily always, though; this mon is often my tera mon of choice in my team as is, due to the aforementioned benefits). That said, superpower as a rogue coverage move on the set I showed above is probably fine to smack random blisseys; though it may need a few boosts to truly persevere.

Physical enamorus is actually not bad. Its attack stat is sure lower and that too by 20 points but it still useable 115 esp with play rough and contrary superpower. sure superpower initially doesnt break through stuff like pex or dozo but u do wall tusk which is quite nice. u can spam spower vs tusk.

Tera spower three shots sp.def dozo[doesnt mean much when its gonna curse up but thats something esp with rise of drop in rest in favour of protect] And it also gets grass knot just for dozo. Its not like u need much bar play rough and spower. grass knot still gonna hit like truck. [three shots sp.def dozo and two shots ph.def dozo] sub lets u sit on clod too. Oh yeah pex is annoying for sure though.

252 Atk Contrary Tera Fighting Enamorus Superpower over 2 turns vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Toxapex: 156-185 (51.4 - 61%) -- not a KO

with sub u can fish easier. Sure not the best but i do think it has potential. fairy + fighting is all physical enamo needs really.

252 Atk Contrary Tera Fighting Enamorus Superpower over 2 turns vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Clodsire: 335-395 (72.3 - 85.3%) -- not a KO


You dunk on water absorb clod so something like Walking wake is great teammate.

The main issue is dirge though. Walls u hard however dirge often tera fairies.

252 Atk Contrary Tera Fighting Enamorus Superpower over 2 turns vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Tera Fairy Skeledirge: 225-265 (54.7 - 64.4%) -- not a KO

not great either with slack off.


I dont think its amazing but not that bad.

 

[ant4456]

i’m still yet to be given a valid argument as to why tera should be given the special treatment it is by many people, in terms of attempting to preserve it via normalisation.

does anyone have one, at all? here are answers that are unacceptable:

- it’s a “generational mechanic”. totally meaningless.
- it’s “fun” (lol).
- it adds diversity. not really, & there is a balance to be struck between a hyper-centralised metagame & an oversaturated one, as both are detrimental to one’s ability to prepare for expected threats, thus leading to matchup volatility becoming an unacceptable influence in game-outcomes (see: uncompetitive, the minimisation of player choice in the results of matches.)

once again, to treat tera in this manner collapses smogon’s foundational principles regarding tiering - leading us to a morass of directionless tiering.

instead of answering with my own words, I'm going to reply with other resources that have been made by way cooler people than me that I agree with. Keep in note, a lot of people disagree, and that is fair, butRu:

from: https://www.smogon.com/articles/svou-suspect-terastallization

" (...) Terastallization has become one of the most polarizing tiering topics in Smogon's long history, as many people thought it added value and strategy to the game we play, while many others believed it diminished the competitive nature of our metagame. Given the controversial nature of the topic, the SV OU tiering council utilized their community as a resource to gain greater perspective through the following means: (...)

After gauging public perception and a great deal of internal discussion, they ultimately concluded that having a public suspect test would be the best idea to proceed. Given the importance of a generational mechanic, the variety of opinions people had on it, and the unique nature of Terastallization in the context of games, the council established a unique, multi-question voting structure."

from: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/terastallization-tiering-discussion.3711464/

Finchinator, Post #1:

"(...) Notice the variation between the effect and use of each one; there are a number of examples that work offensively, defensively, or even both simultaneously. A couple of the sets use Tera Blast, a couple of the sets abuse the added boost to previously existing STAB, a couple of the Pokemon solely focus on the shifted defensive typing to grant wider match-up coverage, a couple of the Pokemon use the additional STAB typing to bolster their complimentary attacks, and so on. It is very hard to isolate a single aspect of Terastallization as the best or worst as they all play very important and pressing roles in the metagame on numerous Pokemon.
Given how potent and focal Terastallization has been thus far, it has been deemed appropriate to open a thread on its tiering placement. There are three potential outcomes for Terastallization: outright ban, restriction, and no tiering action. The former two fall into the camp of tiering action being needed while the latter one maintains the current status quo. Let's discuss all three possibilities!"

"(........)The idea of restricting Terastallization has been floated on numerous occasions to the council and to tiering administration. The underlying idea behind these prospects would be that it preserves the core mechanic of the generation, granting the metagame some defining characteristics while maintaining a playerbase drawing feature to some degree. It is true, however, that neither of these two pieces of reasoning have any direct correlation to competitiveness, which is the foremost focus in any tiering discussion.

In addition, we are working under the premise that if any restriction does get implemented and the mechanic still proves problematic afterwards, then at this point we would be far more likely to cut any losses and not try any further restrictions, but rather an outright ban. This means that the focus of this will be to see if there is any plausible restriction to Terastallization that could balance it enough to remain in the metagame rather than being on trying to preserve as much as possible on the basis that it can always be further restricted, which we will not waste the bulk of the generation on leveling out."


ABR, Post #7:

"I am generally against complex bans of any kind but I think it’s different here. It’s a core generational mechanic and a decision that lasts, likely across all standard gen 9 tiers. There’s no slippery slope - it’s a once in a generation debate. It is also larger scale than something like BP - it impacts genuinely every pokemon. I think we’d still be doing the right thing."

Ruft, Post #19:

"Why not conduct a single suspect test with more than two voting options, with an outright ban of Terastallization among the restrictions?
I think Terastallization being banned in its entirety without trying out any of the restrictions would be a regretful result, as there is certainly merit to keeping the core mechanic of the generation that goes beyond competitiveness, as Lily and others have alluded to. My proposal ensures that restrictions are tried before the mechanic were to be banned in its entirety."

GoldCat, Post #27:

"None of the proposed solutions changes terastallization mechanically in any shape or form. It's a simple (albeit complex) change to the ruleset. Yes, nothing in-game enforces these rules, but neither does the game stop you from bringing Miraidon to an OU match. Now you wouldn't argue that we are modding Miraidon and any other Uber out of the game to play OU. Implicit in Smogon's ruleset is the idea of a third-party, unbiased judge. That's how the HP%, chancel button, our timer rules, and Deoxys forms in ADV Ubers all work. Just like how the judge would look at your opponents' screen to see their Pokemon's exact HP and give you the rounded percentage, the judge will tell you which Pokemon has which Tera type at team preview. I don't see how at least this proposal goes against Smogon's tiering philosophy other than it being a complex ban and Sleep Clause has already set a much worse precedent, which we (hopefully) will never follow.

Personally, the "limiting Tera typing to previously existing STAB types" option should be dropped, it's bad policy in my eyes. It would be akin to banning only damaging/status Z-moves while keeping the other. If you want to preserve Terastal but think something needs to be done, then the other two are much better because they don't take away from the mechanic and only see to limit it."

Ruft, Post #28:

"While the hypothetical restrictions you (in response to Chloe, post #25) raise pertaining Dynamax and gems would be impossible to replicate on the cartridge, as they require modifying cartridge mechanics, it is in fact perfectly possible to replicate the restrictions proposed in this thread on the cartridge, as Da Pizza Man and zioziotrip have explained. They only require that you have means of communicating with your opponent, which is required to play under a certain ruleset in the first place. All of the proposed restrictions consist of either providing your opponent with certain information before the start of the game or consist of a builder restriction, much like how banning a Pokemon is a builder restriction, so I would argue it is acceptable under Smogon's tiering framework."

and I could go on and on.

Of course, there are many people who disagree, and that is probably fair to an extent. But this talking point has been answered. Dislike the answers or not, people have given their takes on if restricting Tera rather than banning it is preferable, and more importantly, feasible on a policy level; and have agreed, even within higher positions.

 

[LoseToRU?]

It may be time to put up a Tera discussion board, since this one just inevitably boils back down to Tera.

Finch asked us not to keep talking Tera here for now but it's really kinda hard to dance around the elephant in the room.

Like I said to Lily, really nothing exciting or interesting, at least not as much as Tera discussion, is happening rn in OU.

Obv not telling mods what to do but something to think about in the coming days idk.

instead of answering with my own words, I'm going to reply with other resources that have been made by way cooler people than me that I agree with. Keep in note, a lot of people disagree, and that is fair, butRu:

from: https://www.smogon.com/articles/svou-suspect-terastallization

" (...) Terastallization has become one of the most polarizing tiering topics in Smogon's long history, as many people thought it added value and strategy to the game we play, while many others believed it diminished the competitive nature of our metagame. Given the controversial nature of the topic, the SV OU tiering council utilized their community as a resource to gain greater perspective through the following means: (...)

After gauging public perception and a great deal of internal discussion, they ultimately concluded that having a public suspect test would be the best idea to proceed. Given the importance of a generational mechanic, the variety of opinions people had on it, and the unique nature of Terastallization in the context of games, the council established a unique, multi-question voting structure."

from: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/terastallization-tiering-discussion.3711464/

Finchinator, Post #1:

"(...) Notice the variation between the effect and use of each one; there are a number of examples that work offensively, defensively, or even both simultaneously. A couple of the sets use Tera Blast, a couple of the sets abuse the added boost to previously existing STAB, a couple of the Pokemon solely focus on the shifted defensive typing to grant wider match-up coverage, a couple of the Pokemon use the additional STAB typing to bolster their complimentary attacks, and so on. It is very hard to isolate a single aspect of Terastallization as the best or worst as they all play very important and pressing roles in the metagame on numerous Pokemon.
Given how potent and focal Terastallization has been thus far, it has been deemed appropriate to open a thread on its tiering placement. There are three potential outcomes for Terastallization: outright ban, restriction, and no tiering action. The former two fall into the camp of tiering action being needed while the latter one maintains the current status quo. Let's discuss all three possibilities!"

"(........)The idea of restricting Terastallization has been floated on numerous occasions to the council and to tiering administration. The underlying idea behind these prospects would be that it preserves the core mechanic of the generation, granting the metagame some defining characteristics while maintaining a playerbase drawing feature to some degree. It is true, however, that neither of these two pieces of reasoning have any direct correlation to competitiveness, which is the foremost focus in any tiering discussion.

In addition, we are working under the premise that if any restriction does get implemented and the mechanic still proves problematic afterwards, then at this point we would be far more likely to cut any losses and not try any further restrictions, but rather an outright ban. This means that the focus of this will be to see if there is any plausible restriction to Terastallization that could balance it enough to remain in the metagame rather than being on trying to preserve as much as possible on the basis that it can always be further restricted, which we will not waste the bulk of the generation on leveling out."


ABR, Post #7:

"I am generally against complex bans of any kind but I think it’s different here. It’s a core generational mechanic and a decision that lasts, likely across all standard gen 9 tiers. There’s no slippery slope - it’s a once in a generation debate. It is also larger scale than something like BP - it impacts genuinely every pokemon. I think we’d still be doing the right thing."

Ruft, Post #19:

"Why not conduct a single suspect test with more than two voting options, with an outright ban of Terastallization among the restrictions?
I think Terastallization being banned in its entirety without trying out any of the restrictions would be a regretful result, as there is certainly merit to keeping the core mechanic of the generation that goes beyond competitiveness, as Lily and others have alluded to. My proposal ensures that restrictions are tried before the mechanic were to be banned in its entirety."

GoldCat, Post #27:

"None of the proposed solutions changes terastallization mechanically in any shape or form. It's a simple (albeit complex) change to the ruleset. Yes, nothing in-game enforces these rules, but neither does the game stop you from bringing Miraidon to an OU match. Now you wouldn't argue that we are modding Miraidon and any other Uber out of the game to play OU. Implicit in Smogon's ruleset is the idea of a third-party, unbiased judge. That's how the HP%, chancel button, our timer rules, and Deoxys forms in ADV Ubers all work. Just like how the judge would look at your opponents' screen to see their Pokemon's exact HP and give you the rounded percentage, the judge will tell you which Pokemon has which Tera type at team preview. I don't see how at least this proposal goes against Smogon's tiering philosophy other than it being a complex ban and Sleep Clause has already set a much worse precedent, which we (hopefully) will never follow.

Personally, the "limiting Tera typing to previously existing STAB types" option should be dropped, it's bad policy in my eyes. It would be akin to banning only damaging/status Z-moves while keeping the other. If you want to preserve Terastal but think something needs to be done, then the other two are much better because they don't take away from the mechanic and only see to limit it."

Ruft, Post #28:

"While the hypothetical restrictions you (in response to Chloe, post #25) raise pertaining Dynamax and gems would be impossible to replicate on the cartridge, as they require modifying cartridge mechanics, it is in fact perfectly possible to replicate the restrictions proposed in this thread on the cartridge, as Da Pizza Man and zioziotrip have explained. They only require that you have means of communicating with your opponent, which is required to play under a certain ruleset in the first place. All of the proposed restrictions consist of either providing your opponent with certain information before the start of the game or consist of a builder restriction, much like how banning a Pokemon is a builder restriction, so I would argue it is acceptable under Smogon's tiering framework."

and I could go on and on.

Of course, there are many people who disagre, and that is probably fair to an extent. But this talking point has been answered. Dislike the answers or not, people have given their takes on if restricting Tera rather than banning it is preferable, and more importantly, feasible on a policy level; and have agreed, even within higher positions.

tl:dr Tera bad
(jk but I will tear this post apart on the next Tera board)

 

[ant4456]

Please no tera ban
tera fun
tera gen 9 niche mechanic
tera water swords dance booster energy iron valiant liquidation fun
tera grass heatran fun
tera water basculegion fun
tera flying acrobatics fun
tera ghost spikes setter fun
tera last moment defensive tera to win the game fun
pls no ban

wait until you figure out 90% of ban tera posts are that tera is not fun and "i do not like it plz ban"

edit: to be clear i dont actually think this is true, i also just dont think "tera argument is just that its fun" is true either

 

[LoseToRU?]

wait until you figure out 90% of ban tera posts are that tera is not fun and "i do not like it plz ban"

That's literally not true whatsoever in any capacity lol

You are wild when it comes to strawman bro

 

[tigers jaw]

instead of answering with my own words, I'm going to reply with other resources that have been made by way cooler people than me that I agree with. Keep in note, a lot of people disagree, and that is fair, butRu:

from: https://www.smogon.com/articles/svou-suspect-terastallization

" (...) Terastallization has become one of the most polarizing tiering topics in Smogon's long history, as many people thought it added value and strategy to the game we play, while many others believed it diminished the competitive nature of our metagame. Given the controversial nature of the topic, the SV OU tiering council utilized their community as a resource to gain greater perspective through the following means: (...)

After gauging public perception and a great deal of internal discussion, they ultimately concluded that having a public suspect test would be the best idea to proceed. Given the importance of a generational mechanic, the variety of opinions people had on it, and the unique nature of Terastallization in the context of games, the council established a unique, multi-question voting structure."

from: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/terastallization-tiering-discussion.3711464/

Finchinator, Post #1:

"(...) Notice the variation between the effect and use of each one; there are a number of examples that work offensively, defensively, or even both simultaneously. A couple of the sets use Tera Blast, a couple of the sets abuse the added boost to previously existing STAB, a couple of the Pokemon solely focus on the shifted defensive typing to grant wider match-up coverage, a couple of the Pokemon use the additional STAB typing to bolster their complimentary attacks, and so on. It is very hard to isolate a single aspect of Terastallization as the best or worst as they all play very important and pressing roles in the metagame on numerous Pokemon.
Given how potent and focal Terastallization has been thus far, it has been deemed appropriate to open a thread on its tiering placement. There are three potential outcomes for Terastallization: outright ban, restriction, and no tiering action. The former two fall into the camp of tiering action being needed while the latter one maintains the current status quo. Let's discuss all three possibilities!"

"(........)The idea of restricting Terastallization has been floated on numerous occasions to the council and to tiering administration. The underlying idea behind these prospects would be that it preserves the core mechanic of the generation, granting the metagame some defining characteristics while maintaining a playerbase drawing feature to some degree. It is true, however, that neither of these two pieces of reasoning have any direct correlation to competitiveness, which is the foremost focus in any tiering discussion.

In addition, we are working under the premise that if any restriction does get implemented and the mechanic still proves problematic afterwards, then at this point we would be far more likely to cut any losses and not try any further restrictions, but rather an outright ban. This means that the focus of this will be to see if there is any plausible restriction to Terastallization that could balance it enough to remain in the metagame rather than being on trying to preserve as much as possible on the basis that it can always be further restricted, which we will not waste the bulk of the generation on leveling out."


ABR, Post #7:

"I am generally against complex bans of any kind but I think it’s different here. It’s a core generational mechanic and a decision that lasts, likely across all standard gen 9 tiers. There’s no slippery slope - it’s a once in a generation debate. It is also larger scale than something like BP - it impacts genuinely every pokemon. I think we’d still be doing the right thing."

Ruft, Post #19:

"Why not conduct a single suspect test with more than two voting options, with an outright ban of Terastallization among the restrictions?
I think Terastallization being banned in its entirety without trying out any of the restrictions would be a regretful result, as there is certainly merit to keeping the core mechanic of the generation that goes beyond competitiveness, as Lily and others have alluded to. My proposal ensures that restrictions are tried before the mechanic were to be banned in its entirety."

GoldCat, Post #27:

"None of the proposed solutions changes terastallization mechanically in any shape or form. It's a simple (albeit complex) change to the ruleset. Yes, nothing in-game enforces these rules, but neither does the game stop you from bringing Miraidon to an OU match. Now you wouldn't argue that we are modding Miraidon and any other Uber out of the game to play OU. Implicit in Smogon's ruleset is the idea of a third-party, unbiased judge. That's how the HP%, chancel button, our timer rules, and Deoxys forms in ADV Ubers all work. Just like how the judge would look at your opponents' screen to see their Pokemon's exact HP and give you the rounded percentage, the judge will tell you which Pokemon has which Tera type at team preview. I don't see how at least this proposal goes against Smogon's tiering philosophy other than it being a complex ban and Sleep Clause has already set a much worse precedent, which we (hopefully) will never follow.

Personally, the "limiting Tera typing to previously existing STAB types" option should be dropped, it's bad policy in my eyes. It would be akin to banning only damaging/status Z-moves while keeping the other. If you want to preserve Terastal but think something needs to be done, then the other two are much better because they don't take away from the mechanic and only see to limit it."

Ruft, Post #28:

"While the hypothetical restrictions you (in response to Chloe, post #25) raise pertaining Dynamax and gems would be impossible to replicate on the cartridge, as they require modifying cartridge mechanics, it is in fact perfectly possible to replicate the restrictions proposed in this thread on the cartridge, as Da Pizza Man and zioziotrip have explained. They only require that you have means of communicating with your opponent, which is required to play under a certain ruleset in the first place. All of the proposed restrictions consist of either providing your opponent with certain information before the start of the game or consist of a builder restriction, much like how banning a Pokemon is a builder restriction, so I would argue it is acceptable under Smogon's tiering framework."

and I could go on and on.

Of course, there are many people who disagree, and that is probably fair to an extent. But this talking point has been answered. Dislike the answers or not, people have given their takes on if restricting Tera rather than banning it is preferable, and more importantly, feasible on a policy level; and have agreed, even within higher positions.

thank you for an actual response, much appreciated. i have neither the time nor the means at the moment to sufficiently respond to such posts (just moved house, no broadband until next tuesday) but i promise i will do so when able

Finchinator ban me if i do not hold to this

 

[DoofV3]

I personally haven't played this tier much even Post-Home as a casual player precisely because of Tera, for whatever my opinion as a low ladder scrub counts.

It's definitely a skill issue on my end, but team building with opposing Tera in mind is just so... annoying. At the risk of sounding like a boomer, I miss the good ol' days when I could count on my Heatran being able to check Volcarona instead of having to decide if I should plan around the possibility of Water/Ground Tera match up Moth shredding through my whole team.

And that's just one mon, having to deal with the possibility of other 6 mons having that option just kills all my motivation on the teambuilder stage.

 

[awyp]

I personally haven't played this tier much even Post-Home as a casual player precisely because of Tera, for whatever my opinion as a low ladder scrub counts.

It's definitely a skill issue, but team building with opposing Tera in mind is just so... annoying. At the risk of sounding like a boomer, I miss the good ol' days when I could count on my Heatran being able to check Volcarona instead of having to decide if I should plan around the possibility of Water/Ground Tera match up Moth shredding through my whole team.

And that's just one mon, having to deal with the possibility of other 6 mons having that option just kills all my motivation on the teambuilder stage.

Can you elaborate what you mean by skill issue in regards to Tera?