Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

[carbonlifeform]

The first reason Tusk is use is for setting and removing Stealth Rocks and his electric inmunity wich Hands lacks. The second reason Hands isnt use in the first place is because Defensive Tusk walled him.
Defensive Hands could be a niche in a wolrd were the most prominent mon doesnt walled him and also rn Tusk isnt the only block on Hands way: Home introduce both LandoT and Zapdos who both doesnt care about anything Hands trow at him.
You could use alongside Cocaine Bear on a Trickroom but after Magearna Ban trickroom took a big hit

To build on what Moyashi said, Lando can't switch in for fear of Ice Punch, which has good odds to 2HKO even defensive versions at -1.

Every variant of Zapdos and Thundurus-T takes more damage from Ice Punch than they can deal back and can't reliably roost for fear of EQ

Tusk, meanwhile, has plenty of options for team based counterplay and gets worn down pretty quickly between hazards and getting chipped on its way in (and if it's running boots, then it doesn't have lefties to recover off the chip). Still, if you're ever in need to 1v1 for some reason, BU Tusk is the only set you need to fear (besides the criminally underrated Tera Fairy). Tera Fighting Drain Punch not only out-damages anything any other set can throw at you, but combined with leftovers it practically out-heals the damage you're taking.

Happy to post calcs or share replays later, but even with a ground weak team, I've only really been ganked by Tusk once in the 17-1900 range, and that was due to a brain fart where I forgot what set it was.

Finally, no defensive mon beats every offensive mon. People use lots of things that lose to Tusk to great success. I also own that Iron Hands is a more niche pick than Tusk, just trying to point out that it can do some things Tusk can't.

 

[awyp]

Eh, I mean, he's not wrong. I've lost a lot of games with Unberdeon Sneaseler because I didn't weaken the opponent's check enough, or didn't setup before Gholdengo hit the field so I could OHKO it with Fire Punch, or accidentally let Rillaboom die early on so I can't activate Grassy Seed. Furthermore, Unberdeon activating only once isn't great since you'll be in positions where you want to switch Sneaseler out. Even if the stars align, its still not guaranteed to sweep since its somewhat frail (even with Grassy Seed) and can be picked off by priority.

Stuff like Bax, Volc, and Dragonite need less support to clean up and are in more favorable positions to sweep in a majority of scenarios due to their unique traits like Higher bulk, priority, better abilities and typings, etc. Sneaseler has higher highs than these Pokemon arguably, but those highs require more support.

Replays of me f'ing up sweeps:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1881781010
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1881778671 <-- (This one was on me, I didn't know Dragapult could live a Thundurus-T Thunder)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1881752396

Unburden is pretty much a shittier Booster Energy one time use but needs to be under terrain or you can use other 1 time items such Air-Balloon. Things that are a bit fragile need more support in comparison to Baxcalibur who's fat on their own and doesn't need much defensive support (Tera works out fine). In my opinion things like Air-Balloon, White Herb can work very well for the Unburden boost better than Terrain options plus, my comment is more directed that Poison Touch is still a fantastic ability to run with you don't need to run Unburden the whole time if you decide not to.

 

[Mega Breloom]

View attachment 524902

Just like Macargo said, Sneasler needs a lot of conditions to do its job properly, especially when you compare it to the old and reliable sweepers we have. It may look super strong rn because the meta is more focused on frail offense, however, when facing something it can't beat on one hit then it is screwed. Bax, Dragonite or Volc have tools to get around those scenarios where they cannot OHKO something while Sneasler doesn't have much outside dire claw hax or get a free turn with tera (but every mon can do this, isn't nothing special). It is just is poor bulk, suboptimal stab combo and limited coverage options that makes this mon way more inconsistent that it looks at first glance, and it will struggle more when the meta starts to become bulkier again.
Maybe it will get good moves on the dlcs that solve those issues but for now it looks like a mon that probably should drop. Already know that it isn't going to happen just like Treads or Cerelugde haven't do it yet because they are popular.

 

[awyp]

Surveys results are up and my response is to the Light Clay result:

• Light Clay was a 2.26 overall and a 2.18 for the qualified playerbase

i want a recount

 

[zannty]

Looks like Volcarona will be banished to Ubers given 3 members of the OU Council already shared their intent to vote ban. RIP, Volc. OU for 4 gens straight, Uber in Gen 9. Urshifu-Rapid Strike will probably also be banned later down the road due to Tera. How many casualties will there be before we axe this horrible mechanic?

So is tera the problem here or is tera blast the problem? Most issues I have seen from tera has been from giving a pokemon access to a move that allows for coverage against what would normally be great checks (I think this is the right word as I am still new to all of the terminology) against it. Or Just giving a pokemon insane coverage in general.

Regieleki was banned from abusing terablast with ice tera for insane coverage while being the fastest pokemon in the metagame. If volc is banned it will be for being able to abuse tera blast by most recently terastilizing ground to gain access to a ground based move as well as tera water to deal with threats like skeledirge. Also along with everything else broken with espathra (looking a tyou speed boost) tera fighting terablast allowed it to deal with dark and steel types with ease.

Without tera blast this leaves 2 uses for terastilizing. The first of which is tera on a move you have access too and making it more powerful. This is seen on things like tera dark kingambit, tera grass meowscarada, tera ghost pult, tera dragon baxcaliber, and many many others. The key here is you already know they can have this move and can account for it in your team building. For example tera dragon baxcaliber can be accounted for by having a fairy type since it is just making a move they already have more powerful. Sure the extra damage it deals can be relevant (and often is) but them using that move is not necessarily surprising like tera blast is. For example if baxcaliber terastilized to tera steel in order to tera blast your fairy types cannot be, that is hard to account for, but it just terastilizing to dragon and clicking glaive rush is very reasonable to account for.

The other use for tera is defensive terastilizing. This in my opinion leads to very interesting games and giving a poke a defensive tera to survive a hit or make a pokemon with generally bad typing playable is very good. I think defensive teras lead to very dynamic and interesting games. Your skeledirge terastilizing to fairy so its not weak to water or dark makes both players think on their feet and dynamically change gameplans while not just meaning you lose the game like tera blast does by killing your answer to a specific pokemon.

The only poke that has a strong argument that it got banned for defensive terastilizing is Annihilape. It terastilizing to fire or another type to get rid of its generally weak defensive typing allowed it to be very strong. But I also think that if it did not have rage fist that eventually becomes a 300 power move it would not be a problem. So I think that the defensive tera was less a problem and rage fist being more of a problem.

For these reasons I feel like terastilizing and if there is a problem it lies mostly within tera blast and non in the gimmick itself.

ETA: To be clear with this post, I am not argue that there is a problem with tera right now, just if there is an issue the issue revolves around tera blast not tera

 

[Avira]

So is tera the problem here or is tera blast the problem? Most issues I have seen from tera has been from giving a pokemon access to a move that allows for coverage against what would normally be great checks (I think this is the right word as I am still new to all of the terminology) against it. Or Just giving a pokemon insane coverage in general.

Tera Blast is not the issue. It's only been an issue on Regieleki, Espathra, and Volcarona. There is 0 reason to ban Tera Blast just because 3 Pokemon are broken with it. The problem is Terastal making the concept of checking Pokemon go out the window. The meta would be better off with it banned outright.

 

[Ctann]

Honestly it would be strange if a volcarona ban happens. It’s not in the same class or league as the other banned threats or candidates, can understand the perceptions around it, tho by far and away it is the least pressing for a quick ban .

Looks like a knee jerk reaction if it goes so soon.

completely understand the sentiments around it, but there’s no survey data to suggest the community want fast action on it. From what I can see no one is anywhere near as pressed about it.. doesn’t warp the meta to a degree that justifies such fast action

on a scale of 1 to Eleki, where do ya’ll see volcarona? Where 1 is not pressing at all for a quick ban, and “Eleki” is “this is so obviously warping everything we know about gameplay and how to play OU”

 

[Return to Zero]

on a scale of 1 to Eleki, where do ya’ll see volcarona? Where 1 is not pressing at all for a quick ban, and “Eleki” is “this is so obviously warping everything we know about gameplay and how to play OU”

I'd give it a Magearna minus one, personally. Volcarona's not doing anything new. It's once again being the best abuser of the new regional mechanic, only now that Home is here and the new options haven't actually been able to bring it to heel, it's getting kinda ridiculous. Pokemon that should wall this thing have to respect its Tera mixups and play safe around it, regardless of whether or not it has them. Not quickban worthy, but we definitely need to start talking about a suspect.

 

[Rootb]

on a scale of 1 to Eleki, where do ya’ll see volcarona? Where 1 is not pressing at all for a quick ban, and “Eleki” is “this is so obviously warping everything we know about gameplay and how to play OU”

I think it's somewhere between a 3 and a 4. More pressingly, however, I think it's been coasting on "well, we didn't ban it last generation" for years at this point. While there's a lot to be said about whether or not the moth is more broken than it used to be, I think it's telling that one of the best arguments for it is that we should abide by another generation's choice to not ban something borderline.

The best time to send this thing to ubers was some point in either gen 8 or pre-HOME, but the second best time is now.

 

[Arc]

Made a fresh account yesterday to try get a 30-0 account using various iterations of my Walking Wake HO team, as well as UUTS's rain team with the help of him - lost vs a cteam at 28 wins, here's what I think of the meta rn and ill reiterate what needs to go and what should stay.

My thoughts on tera right now
From my experience from playing this generation so far I have come to accept playing with and against tera, and in my opinion as of currently tera is perfectly fine. There is a lot of debate about the move tera blast and using it as a coverage move to hit would-be counters to completely flip the matchup. There are 3 main types of tera users so far - defensive tera, offensive tera and coverage tera.
Defensive tera changes someone's typing to a more favourable typing defensively and allows them to survive an extra attack / be immune etc. The most common instance of this pre-home was many frail mons running tera ghost to circumvent Dragonite's oppressive tera normal extreme speed, and tera ghost was more popular then ever with the introduction of the 2 broken dogs with extremely hard hitting body presses. Other instances of defensive tera might be a dark type turning flying or fairy to remove its weaknesses. I believe defensive tera was almost never broken since defensive tera was a one-off trade for terastallization as a whole in the game, and the only ever real defensive tera abusers are probably Annihilape which turned water/fairy to tank more hits for rage fist; however this was done because the move RAGE FIST was broken, and tera was only something that made ape's setting up for rage fist much easier since ghost/fighting is a bad defensive typing although it is probably one of the best offensive typings in the game. The other true abuser of defensive tera is the zama's; whilst zama-c has a decent typing of steel fighting it often has to verse other zama-cs or something like a volcarona, so by making zama-c into a flying type it would become almost impossible to stop. Defensive tera is imo the most balanced in the game in terms of tera.
Offensive tera is interesting. For only once a game you can pick a mon to gain an adaptability boost to any move and enhance its damage, while changing your mon's type to that one whilst keeping your STABs. I too think this is balanced since it is a one off boost per game, and while it may be frustrating to be swept by a tera dark kingambit late game killing everyone with sucker, the opportunity cost of that is that its just a damage boost and in those circumstances you can't just turn flying type vs a great tusk and try sweep because dark is still weak to fighting, lol. While offensive tera might increase a mon's damage by a lot, almost to the point where it is near broken, I think this is fair as a one off opportunity since if the mon is so op there is inevitably checks to it and if you can get to the point where kingambit comes in late game and sweeps with tera dark I think you have played the game correctly.
The real concern however is tera blast to gain coverage to a completely different type to flip matchups. Someone like volcarona is completely HOPELESS against heatran or volcanian, however it has the power to become ground type or water type and kill that check, then proceed to sweep the whole game. I believe this itself is rather uncompetitive, and I can see why volc is getting so much attention for this matter. Regieleki was banned because of this type of tera - making the fastest mon in the game get bolt beam coverage was just absurd, and as it get sub and a great ability in transistor it is easy to say how broken it was, and I believe there is no world where Eleki should be allowed in OU again.
What are my thoughts on volc's impeding ban and tera blast as a whole? Well, there are not many real abusers of tera blast but the abusers are indeed making it OP. Tera blast won't be banned. Personally however, even with tera preview and stuff if you see a volcarona and know its tera water, theres not much you can do if there is no checks for it. You can play around baiting volt's tera blast and stuff, however if volc has setup a +1 quiver its very difficult to stop it in its tracks, thus I do hope that volc will be getting banned soon, HOWEVER I do not think it warrants a quick ban and a suspect should be considered instead, since it is in no ways more OP than shit like the zamas, mag and pao after mag's ban.
As I mentioned in a previous post, I believe playing around and with tera comes down to experience. If you have played enough you will know the general gist of teras on specific mons; there is not a wide pool of them. Gambit can only normally be fairy/dark/flying and dnite is normally always only normal/fire. TERA PREVIEW WILL CHANGE NOTHING AT ALL. Just consider the possibility "what happens if my opponent tera's" before making a move.

I believe this weekend we will see the banning of Zama-H and Volcarona. I have voiced how much I absolutely hate the zamas since they came to OU, and it is time they go. The fact that only dragapult outspends Zama-H, and it can be a very oppressive sub+leftovers ID BP set that is unable to be outsped, or a very hard hitting choice band set; Zama-H is 100% not ok for OU. If your special attackers are taken out, then GG you physically cannot to much VS Zama. After 2 BP even Urshifu gets OHKOd which is absurd, so thats why I have been running a lot of tera ghosts vs this cancer mon.
I talked about volcarona earlier but I think it SHOULD NOT be quickbanned like that because most the people who say shit about volc are probably low elo players who just got 6-0d by a volc and hate it, however there is 100% counterplay to it and if played right you can even bait the tera, which is a big thing in this meta. Most tera blast volcaronas are offensive 3 attacks so it is prone to priority. It is squishy as fuck too so it is very hard to get a quiver in. This is all things that must be considered. Is volc op? I think its very oppressive and borderline overpowered to be banned, however I think a quickban in that sense is just stupid.

One last thing I would like to add is


PLEASE just suspect this mon. I have NO IDEA why volc is on the radar but this isn't; i will say there is a lot of counterplay to this mon such as trick and covert cloak and people have gotten better at adapting vs salt cure, but garg sits in the same boat as Zama-H in the sense that it is just so fat and if you are against an ID BP set garganacl with no special attackers it is near impossible to break it. The best mon vs garg in my opinion right now is Gholdengo, since it offers great utility with trick, as well as hits everything very hard, and its ability stops defog; gholdengo is everywhere since the meta rn is just spike stack for what ive seen, HOWEVER if garg turns water then its a lot harder for gholdengo, and good players WILL scout for the trick.

I will get the 30-0 next time
TLDR: volc is borderline op but should be suspect tested > quickbanned, zama is op, garg needs a suspect, TERA IS FINE RIGHT NOW there is enough counterplay that comes with experience

 

[Magcargo]

Honestly it would be strange if a volcarona ban happens. It’s not in the same class or league as the other banned threats, can understand the perceptions around it, tho by far and away it is the least pressing for a quick ban .

Looks like a knee jerk reaction if it goes so soon.

completely understand the sentiments around it, but there’s no survey data to suggest the community want fast action on it. From what I can see no one is anywhere near as pressed about it.. doesn’t warp the meta to a degree that justifies such fast action

on a scale of 1 to Eleki, where do ya’ll see volcarona? Where 1 is not pressing at all for a quick ban, and “Eleki” is “this is so obviously warping everything we know about gameplay and how to play OU”

Yeah, I'm curious as well. Virtually no action was taken on it pre-home, so a quick ban this early when little has changed seems a big strange. Suspect would make more sense tbh.

IDK where I stand on Volcarona. Its always been difficult to counter, but gen 8 is when it became particularly scary, because it doesn't have to worry about its one weakness, SR. It was the king of endgames back then, but had to be used conservatively to avoid a crippling Toxic or Knock Off + Heatran to be weakened.

Volcarona came into this gen arguably buffed from the last gen, where it had to worry about Knock and Toxic around every corner. Now, it can be used more liberally and when you factor in Tera, it becomes a real chore to deal with. Normally it comes down to positioning.

 

[zannty]

One last thing I would like to add is


PLEASE just suspect this mon. I have NO IDEA why volc is on the radar but this isn't; i will say there is a lot of counterplay to this mon such as trick and covert cloak and people have gotten better at adapting vs salt cure, but garg sits in the same boat as Zama-H in the sense that it is just so fat and if you are against an ID BP set garganacl with no special attackers it is near impossible to break it. The best mon vs garg in my opinion right now is Gholdengo, since it offers great utility with trick, as well as hits everything very hard, and its ability stops defog; gholdengo is everywhere since the meta rn is just spike stack for what ive seen, HOWEVER if garg turns water then its a lot harder for gholdengo, and good players WILL scout for the trick.

I don't actually think this pokemon is that good. I played with it a lot and while a great threat I don't think its necessarily any better than a gholdengo type of threat. It can be dealt with by fighting moves and steel moves such as close combat, focus blast, and make it rain. It also in general requires a tera because of its weak defensive typing. And when you have a pokemon on your team that is essentially required to tera in order to be good that is very limiting to your whole team as a whole. There has been a lot of adapting to this pokemon as a whole as well. I find that even the ID BP sets while they are good and can be annoying is it really any worse than DD baxcaliber, SD kingambit or something else that just sets ups? Personally I love the mon and think its a very cool design but saying its more of a problem than other pokemon who are both more prevalent are harder to deal with is unfair imo.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

Volc getting banned would just reveal how flawed the meta is rn, as others have already said there is counterplay to it and solid answers in the tier, even when factoring tera there's often still solutions to a volc even in a given game. I agree the lack of toxic empowers volc but i very distinctively remember last gen no one considered toxic as the solution to volc cause it was running a safeguard set at one point, it was the many offensive checks in the tier that made volc walk on egg shells cause it didn't have the fire power to kill dragapult and cinderace before they killed it. It still doesn't either, its mainly a matter of principle of what it can do vs. what it actually does in an average game.

I don't see how a core of heatran+azumaril doesn't just automatically beat every volc set unless its tera ground+giga drain in one, both are solid checks/counters to volc and solid pokemon worth using outside of it in general. The tier has answers and has enough of them, can't say the same about a lot of other mons in the tier rn. (seriously I don't see azumaril mentioned enough, huge power loses to tera grass but sap sipper azumaril wins vs. that and still beats volc's other sets besides will-o-wisp.)

If volc did get banned the only reason no one would care is tera discussion has been said to be coming in upcoming weeks... why volc is happening before tera idk but i'm sure the conspiracy to make voting for tera ban by banning volc proving it does get mons banned will come into play, in which I salute the council for.

Actually I'm curious where volc's usage rate sits rn cause even watching ladder replays I don't see volc nearly as much as discussion leads on to believe?

 

[LoseToRU?]

"players voted the metagame's competitiveness a 4.65/10 and the qualified players came in at 4.73/10."

LOL

The Balanced and Competitive scores have never been above a 6 for this entire Tera meta.

Let's take a closer look.

These surveys are answered by people who:

1) Already enjoy mons and are active on PS!

2) Care enough about the meta to take time and complete the survey.

3) Play enough and are good enough to reach the "qualified" benchmark.

So my point is, these surveys will always be skewed to have a higher score than if we somehow could get feedback from everyone that plays OU casually, or didn't care enough to answer the survey, or hasn't already been turned off the meta.

1827 players voted.

769 players think the meta is at a 6 or below for Fun.

That's 42% of players who think this meta isn't that Fun.

1190 players think the meta is a 5 or below for Balance and Competitiveness.

That's 65% of players who think this meta is a dumpster fire.

If we take players who voted 6 and below, that means 80% of players think the meta isn't that Balanced or Competitive.

As stated, these are players who like and play mons practically no matter what, are active and care enough to take a survey.
So for the scores to be this low, is actually wild af.

Once again, we collected no data on Tera, and the survey was held at an incredibly volatile state of the meta.

We didn't need a survey to know Pao and Zama need to be QB, or if we did, we could have had a survey just about them.
And then asked about fun and balance later.

I'm asking the council for 3 things:

1) Please conduct another survey in a few weeks, not a few months.

2) Please capture data on Tera.

3) Please elaborate on why each council member thinks the scores are so low and what they would do to try and resolve the issue.

To expand, when I say in a few weeks, I mean during a time where the meta is settled and there are no obviously broken mons running around, because to fully and successfully utilize the tool that is a survey, it needs to be conducted at a proper time. This should be self-explanatory.

When I say capture Tera data, I mean no shit. Why this hasn't been included in any survey is beyond my understanding.
What would collecting this data harm? Why does council not see any use for this data?

The last point is, I want to see what council says about scores taken during a survey timeframe that makes sense. I don't want to see any "It was Pao and Espa, it was Worm, it's was Mage." Yeah, ok, sure. Now do a survey when we have nothing broken and then respond to the terrible balance/comp scores and break those down.
The "blame anything but Tera" challenge it looks like council is playing has gotten really tiring.
Not even a passing remark that tera maybe, just might, somehow be sort of blamed for the scores lol. Just confusing.

These weird emergency surveys just make the meta look bad. You shouldn't have to put a disclaimer on every survey when the scores are comically low. If Tera doesn't negatively affect a meta when it comes to balanced/comp then illustrate that by having a proper survey.
If balanced and comp scores reach an 8 or higher for qualified voters, then that would be a lot of ammo for the pro-tera side.

I know some of the council is pro-tera. I'm not saying this is why Tera has been left off the surveys, or the surveys are always at a time when something else could be blamed. What I'm saying is this:

If OU council has a consensus that tera does not negatively impact a meta's balance/competitiveness, and they truly believe that, then it is in their best interest to conduct a survey during a stable time in the meta.
Because tera is fine, right? What would council be afraid of then?
If the meta is stable, then wouldn't you want to show the anti-tera side that most players, esp qualified ones, think this is a balanced/comp meta?
Anyone who genuinely believes tera adds more than it takes away, should not fear the results of a survey, and welcome any data collection about tera.
Because you're right, right? You are so sure tera makes this meta more competitive and more balanced thanks to, idk, adding a layer of skill or whatever, then all a survey would do is prove you correct. So what's the problem.

 

[Delibird Heart]

Alright I'm making another post in quick succession because what I initially thought to be a meme set is putting in a lot of schwork.

Kleavor @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sharpness
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Axe
- X-Scissor
- U-turn
- Defog

Pretty straightforward set, Kleavor hits deceptively hard with sharpness boosted + 135 base attack and defog is always useful, especially with so little good removal rn. This is one of these sets that look weird on paper but once you try it you'll never be able to go back (trust me on this one). Getting the U-turn off great tusk everytime allows you to build crazy momentum.

here's a replay with this mon : https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1882098073-knvkrllqwf5azrv4hjej4h7hpav1m36pw

Here's a further demonstration of scarf kleavor going brazy and making the opps completely lose the script:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1882488836-3avh2hfdbsh6x27a2s5zua0hteteilmpw

 

[furyofyuriy]

Looks like Volcarona will be banished to Ubers given 3 members of the OU Council already shared their intent to vote ban. RIP, Volc. OU for 4 gens straight, Uber in Gen 9. Urshifu-Rapid Strike will probably also be banned later down the road due to Tera. How many casualties will there be before we axe this horrible mechanic?

Counter point, how many pokemon's viabilities in OU will rise from Lower tiers now that some of the most oppressive mons are gone. While I don't like comparing OU to other tiers or Tera to other mechanics, two things must be noted.

First, there have been a sizable number of formerly OU mons from gens 7 and Gen 8 that fell to lower tiers this generation. This happens all the time and in part is due to nerf's in move sets or abilities (greninja), as well as new additions to the ranks. However some are more glaring than others. Weavile, who was OU and had a niche in Ubers in Gen 8 fell all the way down to RU with the introduction of Chien-Pao ( good riddance). And its no surprise when it's competition had 2 priority STAB and an actual ability that benefited it's playstyle. Sword of Ruin is an absolutely insane ability.

Second point: If the Tera was as inherently broken a mechanic, then surely we would see a rise in usage of mons from lower tiers? Except we aren't, in fact it's the opposite. I hate to bring Dynamax into the discussion, but there was a period where people were slapping acrobatics on Salazzle all so they could get Speed Boosts of Max Airstream. And that wasn't even an isolated incident. Anything that could run a Flying move did and the Swift Swim/Chlorophyll/Sand Rush/Slush Rush were unshackled by their dependence on weather setters.

Now lets look at Tera by comparison. In OU you can make a legitimate argument that only 1 mon was banned 100% due to Tera (Eleki) and 2 that were likely due to their tool kits/abilities, but Tera was a contributing factor. (Palafin and Esparthra). Pre-HOME, the four most complained about pokemon (due to tera) that tiering action wasn't taken on were: Volcarona, Garg, Roaring Moon, and Dragonite. Moon and Dragonite are still amazing pokemon, but their play styles could be dealt with and became predictable. Garg became the target of backlash due to it's abundance of Tera sets, however again it became manageable as people learned to play with it, as evidenced by a multitude of survey's. Volcarona continues to be the only mon from Pre-HOME OU that is getting attention and while Tera is def a big reason for this, it has always been a controversial pokemon in OU.

Now if we look to lower tiers, there are certainly some mons that benefit from Tera more than others (Scizor, Iron Leaves, Oricorio Pom Pom, Toxtricity) so much so that some have been banned from their respective tiers. And yet of the mons banned from said lower tiers, they aren't even a blip on the radar in OU. As an example, Oricorio Pom Pom was RU's equivalent to volcarona in many aspects with Quiver Dance+ Roost + Tera. When it was banned from the tier, it rose to A rank in UU before falling to B+ Rank, where it sits comfortably now. There has yet to be any mon from lower tiers that has broken through the OU threshold of Power level due to Tera as a mechanic. Therefore, fault lies more with the pokemon in question rather than the mechanic in my eyes. IMO, I would much rather see a few very clearly powerful pokemon go to Ubers to allow lower tier mons to gain valuable niches within OU than have a few mons have a stranglehold on the OU Meta.

Here's the short version of my rant: As a mechanic, Tera has not demonstrated to improve pokemon of lower tier standings so much so that they stand a chance in the OU tier. If anything, the barrier for entry into OU is so high right now that mons are dropping to lower tiers than they normally would. Therefore, it is much more evident in my eyes that it's the tools the pokemon possesses rather than the generational mechanic that is the outlier. I know Chien-Pao is gone now, but are we really going to say Tera is the straw that broke the camels back on this thing and not Sword of Ruin + 2 STAB Priority moves? Are we really going to pretend that Volcarona, a mon that has historically remained in OU since its debut generation with access to Quiver Dance and near perfect coverage moves, is a valid argument for banning a mechanic? OU is the threshold for what can be considered Broken (Ubers) and what is not. If the best Tera abusers in lower tiers can't hack it in OU consistently, than the outlier is clearly what mons are currently setting the bar of entry so high.

If OU council has a consensus that tera does not negatively impact a meta's balance/competitiveness, and they truly believe that, then it is in their best interest to conduct a survey during a stable time in the meta.
Because tera is fine, right? What would council be afraid of then?
If the meta is stable, then wouldn't you want to show the anti-tera side that most players, esp qualified ones, think this is a balanced/comp meta?
Anyone who genuinely believes tera adds more than it takes away, should not fear the results of a survey, and welcome any data collection about tera.
Because you're right, right? You are so sure tera makes this meta more competitive and more balanced thanks to, idk, adding a layer of skill or whatever, then all a survey would do is prove you correct. So what's the problem.

Data collection is always welcome and it absolutely should be done. That being said, you are outright ignoring the results of the last survey in which the A) The majority voted against tiering action at the time and B) that between an outright ban or restriction, 74% would rather a restriction.

The actions the council has taken is following the will of the community as a whole and should be respected. They have already said they will review Tera again at a later time. Even if something were to happen to Tera, it is likely it would only be restricted at worst.

Your view on tera is clouding your judgment on the results of the tiering survey imo. Did you perhaps consider the meta is currently viewed as unbalanced because we just rereleased multiple old Uber's into the tier? Or how about a bunch of new mons like Ursaluna and Sneasler that we previously had little data on? How many of those were simpley Salty about Dire Claw sleeps? As Finch said, the state of the meta is likely a testament to all the new additions to the tier. The council has performed a series of quick bans that were very much warranted and should be commended as such. I doubt many will "fear the results of the survey" on Tera as you claim, but only time will tell.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Looks like Volcarona will be banished to Ubers given 3 members of the OU Council already shared their intent to vote ban. RIP, Volc. OU for 4 gens straight, Uber in Gen 9. Urshifu-Rapid Strike will probably also be banned later down the road due to Tera. How many casualties will there be before we axe this horrible mechanic?

I will guarantee you that rapid strike isn't broken due to tera, its broken due to the fact it literally GOT SWORDS DANCE, the one thing that could break it

Banning tera would not make rapid strike balanced most likely

I want tera gone too, but that's not the greatest argument. Personally I want it gone due to the absolute headaches it causes for trying to predict your opponent due to the mindgames they can cause, and the lack of opportunity cost that tera has in singles compared to doubles, where you have to be very careful compared to singles on what you tera. And I don't think tera preview would fix these problems

 

[MattC (Banned)]

2 bans will be publicly announced at 2pm GMT-4 on smogon's twitch at around the start of the World Cup drawing stream (thanks Amaranth for allowing this)

the ban posts will go up around then, too

Looks to me like we got bigger fish to fry

 

[LoseToRU?]

Counter point, how many pokemon's viabilities in OU will rise from Lower tiers now that some of the most oppressive mons are gone. While I don't like comparing OU to other tiers or Tera to other mechanics, two things must be noted.

First, there have been a sizable number of formerly OU mons from gens 7 and Gen 8 that fell to lower tiers this generation. This happens all the time and in part is due to nerf's in move sets or abilities (greninja), as well as new additions to the ranks. However some are more glaring than others. Weavile, who was OU and had a niche in Ubers in Gen 8 fell all the way down to RU with the introduction of Chien-Pao ( good riddance). And its no surprise when it's competition had 2 priority STAB and an actual ability that benefited it's playstyle. Sword of Ruin is an absolutely insane ability.

Second point: If the Tera was as inherently broken a mechanic, then surely we would see a rise in usage of mons from lower tiers? Except we aren't, in fact it's the opposite. I hate to bring Dynamax into the discussion, but there was a period where people were slapping acrobatics on Salazzle all so they could get Speed Boosts of Max Airstream. And that wasn't even an isolated incident. Anything that could run a Flying move did and the Swift Swim/Chlorophyll/Sand Rush/Slush Rush were unshackled by their dependence on weather setters.

Now lets look at Tera by comparison. In OU you can make a legitimate argument that only 1 mon was banned 100% due to Tera (Eleki) and 2 that were likely due to their tool kits/abilities, but Tera was a contributing factor. (Palafin and Esparthra). Pre-HOME, the four most complained about pokemon (due to tera) that tiering action wasn't taken on were: Volcarona, Garg, Roaring Moon, and Dragonite. Moon and Dragonite are still amazing pokemon, but their play styles could be dealt with and became predictable. Garg became the target of backlash due to it's abundance of Tera sets, however again it became manageable as people learned to play with it, as evidenced by a multitude of survey's. Volcarona continues to be the only mon from Pre-HOME OU that is getting attention and while Tera is def a big reason for this, it has always been a controversial pokemon in OU.

Now if we look to lower tiers, there are certainly some mons that benefit from Tera more than others (Scizor, Iron Leaves, Oricorio Pom Pom, Toxtricity) so much so that some have been banned from their respective tiers. And yet of the mons banned from said lower tiers, they aren't even a blip on the radar in OU. As an example, Oricorio Pom Pom was RU's equivalent to volcarona in many aspects with Quiver Dance+ Roost + Tera. When it was banned from the tier, it rose to A rank in UU before falling to B+ Rank, where it sits comfortably now. There has yet to be any mon from lower tiers that has broken through the OU threshold of Power level due to Tera as a mechanic. Therefore, fault lies more with the pokemon in question rather than the mechanic in my eyes. IMO, I would much rather see a few very clearly powerful pokemon go to Ubers to allow lower tier mons to gain valuable niches within OU than have a few mons have a stranglehold on the OU Meta.

Here's the short version of my rant: As a mechanic, Tera has not demonstrated to improve pokemon of lower tier standings so much so that they stand a chance in the OU tier. If anything, the barrier for entry into OU is so high right now that mons are dropping to lower tiers than they normally would. Therefore, it is much more evident in my eyes that it's the tools the pokemon possesses rather than the generational mechanic that is the outlier. I know Chien-Pao is gone now, but are we really going to say Tera is the straw that broke the camels back on this thing and not Sword of Ruin + 2 STAB Priority moves? Are we really going to pretend that Volcarona, a mon that has historically remained in OU since its debut generation with access to Quiver Dance and near perfect coverage moves, is a valid argument for banning a mechanic? OU is the threshold for what can be considered Broken (Ubers) and what is not. If the best Tera abusers in lower tiers can't hack it in OU consistently, than the outlier is clearly what mons are currently setting the bar of entry so high.


Data collection is always welcome and it absolutely should be done. That being said, you are outright ignoring the results of the last survey in which the A) The majority voted against tiering action at the time and B) that between an outright ban or restriction, 74% would rather a restriction.

The actions the council has taken is following the will of the community as a whole and should be respected. They have already said they will review Tera again at a later time. Even if something were to happen to Tera, it is likely it would only be restricted at worst.

Your view on tera is clouding your judgment on the results of the tiering survey imo. Did you perhaps consider the meta is currently viewed as unbalanced because we just rereleased multiple old Uber's into the tier? Or how about a bunch of new mons like Ursaluna and Sneasler that we previously had little data on? How many of those were simpley Salty about Dire Claw sleeps? As Finch said, the state of the meta is likely a testament to all the new additions to the tier. The council has performed a series of quick bans that were very much warranted and should be commended as such. I doubt many will "fear the results of the survey" on Tera as you claim, but only time will tell.

The "last survey" you're talking about was Dec. 10th 2022

That's 6 months ago.
26 weeks...183 days..

New toy syndrome and players not given enough time to form a complete opinion.
There were players in Jan, Feb who were expressing their regret w their pro-tera vote in OU chat.

Regardless, we can still look at that data.
61% of "qualified" voted that some action must be taken.
Which means, even when Tera was a brand new toy, players knew it was not healthy in its current state.
Of qualified voters who voted yes on restriction, 47% wanted an outright ban.
These are the votes ppl should pay attention to.

Speaking of that first survey, and specifically the "general" responses vs the "qualified".

"For normal surveys, I am able to go through and remove responses of people who do not meet requirements (see: not having a forum account), but this would have been a full-time job with so many responses (esp. with how many where done without following the rules) and I already work one of those, so I left it largely unfiltered.

There was also a very amusing phenomenon with these. Historically in the first 12-16 hours we get at least half of our total responses as most people who are invested respond quickly due to it being spread throughout places they frequent. In this range, we had 1300ish responses and 58% in favor of acting. Within the next few hours, Joey uploaded a video and suddenly the survey absolutely blew up, which is cool in one right but also the way it blew up was a little demoralizing from my end as an organizer because nobody actually followed instructions about having a Smogon account or answering the question about restrict vs. outright ban only if you favor action since there's obviously an inherent, so suddenly it became an impossibility trying to meet the standards for quality-of-results that we had reached last generation. This breakneck pace continued for that entire day as well, which is when I ultimately decided I could no longer vet things on a response-by-response basis and just let it rip with what we had.

Which means we need to put much less weight on the general responses.

We all know how crazy some of these YT fanboys can be, and how much time they have on their hands. And, how impressionable and easily manipulated they are. Joey/Blunder and whatever other YT that was literally telling randos to go vote pro-tera was wildly immoral and unprofessional, but I digress.
We also need to factor in random ppl from across the internet who unironically believe in "Big Stall" and don't like Smogon's tiering actions when it comes to restricting their favorite, broken win button mons and items. I don't put it past a few hundreds of these votes from ppl who don't even play gen 9.

The qualified voter data shows that even in those first days, real players, who are good, were almost evenly split on if they wanted tera fully banned or not.
The general responses are no longer relevant data, and the qualified responses haven't been asked in half a year what they think about tera now.
When we factor in new toy syndrome, the hype, the YT persuasion, how long it's been and possibly hundreds of duplicate votes I think we should move on from this talking point about the first and only Tera survey we've had.
The first survey is basically irrelevant at this point.

To move on, you missed the part where I said these surveys are conveniently timed when the meta is in a terrible state, and then shortly after the mon or move (Shed Tail) that was making the meta worse is banned, we wait until the meta gets another broken mon or two until another survey. Which is why I don't think we're going to have another survey for months.

The meta will be in a stable state in about 2-3 weeks, perfect for taking a survey and getting results that can't be blamed on some mons, so we won't have one. At that point, council would have to address the tera question. Would love to see that, but for some reason, they don't seem to think of gathering player data during a proper time and asking the proper questions that would assist them in fulfilling their roles as leaders who want to make this tier as good as it could be.

. IMO, I would much rather see a few very clearly powerful pokemon go to Ubers to allow lower tier mons to gain valuable niches within OU than have a few mons have a stranglehold on the OU Meta.

Thank you for this.
I agree with you that the only way to keep tera and make the meta balanced/comp is to ban several heavyweight mons and make OU look like UU.
V few pro-tera players are as open as this when it comes to being honest about how insanely strong tera makes good mons. Thanks again.

 

[yomaalt]

2 bans will be publicly announced at 2pm GMT-4 on smogon's twitch at around the start of the World Cup drawing stream (thanks Amaranth for allowing this)

the ban posts will go up around then, too

ZAMAZENTA NO :(

 

[Srn]

Counter point, how many pokemon's viabilities in OU will rise from Lower tiers now that some of the most oppressive mons are gone. While I don't like comparing OU to other tiers or Tera to other mechanics, two things must be noted.

First, there have been a sizable number of formerly OU mons from gens 7 and Gen 8 that fell to lower tiers this generation. This happens all the time and in part is due to nerf's in move sets or abilities (greninja), as well as new additions to the ranks. However some are more glaring than others. Weavile, who was OU and had a niche in Ubers in Gen 8 fell all the way down to RU with the introduction of Chien-Pao ( good riddance). And its no surprise when it's competition had 2 priority STAB and an actual ability that benefited it's playstyle. Sword of Ruin is an absolutely insane ability.

Second point: If the Tera was as inherently broken a mechanic, then surely we would see a rise in usage of mons from lower tiers? Except we aren't, in fact it's the opposite. I hate to bring Dynamax into the discussion, but there was a period where people were slapping acrobatics on Salazzle all so they could get Speed Boosts of Max Airstream. And that wasn't even an isolated incident. Anything that could run a Flying move did and the Swift Swim/Chlorophyll/Sand Rush/Slush Rush were unshackled by their dependence on weather setters.

Now lets look at Tera by comparison. In OU you can make a legitimate argument that only 1 mon was banned 100% due to Tera (Eleki) and 2 that were likely due to their tool kits/abilities, but Tera was a contributing factor. (Palafin and Esparthra). Pre-HOME, the four most complained about pokemon (due to tera) that tiering action wasn't taken on were: Volcarona, Garg, Roaring Moon, and Dragonite. Moon and Dragonite are still amazing pokemon, but their play styles could be dealt with and became predictable. Garg became the target of backlash due to it's abundance of Tera sets, however again it became manageable as people learned to play with it, as evidenced by a multitude of survey's. Volcarona continues to be the only mon from Pre-HOME OU that is getting attention and while Tera is def a big reason for this, it has always been a controversial pokemon in OU.

Now if we look to lower tiers, there are certainly some mons that benefit from Tera more than others (Scizor, Iron Leaves, Oricorio Pom Pom, Toxtricity) so much so that some have been banned from their respective tiers. And yet of the mons banned from said lower tiers, they aren't even a blip on the radar in OU. As an example, Oricorio Pom Pom was RU's equivalent to volcarona in many aspects with Quiver Dance+ Roost + Tera. When it was banned from the tier, it rose to A rank in UU before falling to B+ Rank, where it sits comfortably now. There has yet to be any mon from lower tiers that has broken through the OU threshold of Power level due to Tera as a mechanic. Therefore, fault lies more with the pokemon in question rather than the mechanic in my eyes. IMO, I would much rather see a few very clearly powerful pokemon go to Ubers to allow lower tier mons to gain valuable niches within OU than have a few mons have a stranglehold on the OU Meta.

This is actually a new argument, thank you for this.
However, let's take a look at December 2019 stats, the month during which dynamax was banned:
https://www.smogon.com/stats/2019-12/gen8ou-0.txt

Which of the OU usage pokemon listed here would go on to drop out of OU in the later months? Ditto and Corsola-galar are the big ones, pokemons that were a reaction to dmax's stupid power level. It's been a while since the dmax meta hellscape, but from what I remember, it was quite a similar situation to tera in that a few of the best abusers had a stranglehold on the OU meta. Gyarados, Togekiss, Corv, and G-darm breaking its choice lock were the standout offenders. We did not see acrobatics salazzle abusing max airstream or any such hijinx in any serious capacity. Sure we get the occasional cool thingy like tera fire arboliva or dmax hustle durant (max moves dont miss), but let's be real. We did not see a plethora of lower tier mons all of a sudden have valuable niches as unique dmax abusers in the OU meta, and as you have stated, we do not see this with tera either.

Bottom line is this: both tera and dmax can make bad pokemon good and good pokemon better. The contrast you're trying to draw between the two doesn't exist.

 

[mothra_moth]

Since Volcarona is about to be banned despite having counterplay and is arguably more fair to play around than whatever Sneasler is doing, can we look into Dragonite next?

You can't OHKO it reliably due to multiscale and its respectable bulk, meaning it can get a DD up, and much like Volc, it can use Tera to make itself stronger, like using Tera Normal Extreme Speed to make the life of everything not resisiting or immune to it hell.

I just think it's odd Volc is the only tera-reliant Pokémon looked into now, especially when it isn't on the same level as the other things looked into, and has stood out like a sore thumb in the post-home radars, like it's only one person really pushing for it to be banned.

 

[Arc]

Since Volcarona is about to be banned despite having counterplay and is arguably more fair to play around than whatever Sneasler is doing, can we look into Dragonite next?

You can't OHKO it reliably due to multiscale and its respectable bulk, meaning it can get a DD up, and much like Volc, it can use Tera to make itself stronger, like using Tera Normal Extreme Speed to make the life of everything not resisiting or immune to it hell.

I just think it's odd Volc is the only tera-reliant Pokémon looked into now, especially when it isn't on the same level as the other things looked into, and has stood out like a sore thumb in the post-home radars, like it's only one person really pushing for it to be banned.

No

 

[Crimson Chris]

People: Let's leave the great Tera debates for the dedicated Tera survey and suspect period.

Also People: Proceed to continue arguing the same shit over and over again.

This shit is a death spiral at this point.

 

[furyofyuriy]

Which of the OU usage pokemon listed here would go on to drop out of OU in the later months? Ditto and Corsola-galar are the big ones, pokemons that were a reaction to dmax's stupid power level. It's been a while since the dmax meta hellscape, but from what I remember, it was quite a similar situation to tera in that a few of the best abusers had a stranglehold on the OU meta. Gyarados, Togekiss, Corv, and G-darm breaking its choice lock were the standout offenders. We did not see acrobatics salazzle abusing max airstream or any such hijinx in any serious capacity. Sure we get the occasional cool thingy like tera fire arboliva or dmax hustle durant (max moves dont miss), but let's be real. We did not see a plethora of lower tier mons all of a sudden have valuable niches as unique dmax abusers in the OU meta, and as you have stated, we do not see this with tera either.

Bottom line is this: both tera and dmax can make bad pokemon good and good pokemon better. The contrast you're trying to draw between the two doesn't exist.

Again, I hate comparing Dynamax and Tera because they are extremely different. In fact of was in favor of the Dynamax ban in the past. But the big point I was trying to make with the Acrobatics Salazzle comment was simple: With Dynamax you couldn't ban one or two mons to balance out the tier because something would always take it's place. As you made mention, Gyarados , Togekiss, and Corv were all incredible sweeper threats due to access to powerful Max Airstreams. If all 3 were banned, 3 new Airstream sweepers could easily take their place.

Dynamax caused a stranglehold largely in part due to the stat boosts/drops and doubled health stats, specifically with speed. Of the top 50 mons in the list you provided, 16 could bolster their speed to become viable sweeping threats. If all 16 of those mons were banned, there were just as many viable pokemon within the top 100 to fill their seats as Max airstream sweepers. And that's not even factoring in Max Strike which could drop speed. The extra HP also further allowed just about any mon to slap a weakness policy on it.

Comparatively, Tera does very little to change how the pokemon operates in 90% of instances. You also have to commit to a tera type in team builder, so don't always have an auto win button like Dmax match ups lead to. Comparatively, Dynamax Gyardos and Tera Gyardos can both run Moxie and survive a hit. But if Tera Gyardos want's to sweep, it needs to commit to some DD's to bolster it's base 81 speed. Dynamax Gyardos just spammed Max Airstream and often never brought DD cause it didn't need it. If Dragonite was banned because of Tera Normal Extreme speed, I highly doubt Lucario or Arcanine could swap in for it with ease, despite technically being able to do the same thing.

No, if anything power creep this gen is why the meta is so unbalanced. In terms of new pokemon being banned to Ubers between gen 8 and gen 9 (release date to present day) within the time frame of the meta, the difference is as plane as night and day. In gen 8 we had G-Darm, Cinderace, and Dracovish with the later two not being banned until mid 2020.

Now lets look at gen 9. Of new mons alone we have had 7 banned to ubers, (9 but Houndstone and Cyclizar came back due to move bans). And if Tera was removed from the meta, 6 would still likely remain banned, unless we want to try Chien-Pao for a third time (joke comment, the one I am talking about is Esparthra).

Tera isn't as polarizing as Dynamax by any means. Sure it can be the deciding factor of matches, but the only side you hear complaining about it the most are the ones that lost to a correctly timed/appropriate tera. You don't often hear the other side complain when they lose because they didn't bring the correct tera at a key moment. Just because you have 18 Tera types to choose from, doesn't mean you bring the correct one for every single game. Whereas your typically hard committed to your Dynamax, Mega, or Z Move user.

People: Let's leave the great Tera debates for the dedicated Tera survey and suspect period.

Also People: Proceed to continue arguing the same shit over and over again.

This shit is a death spiral at this point.

As someone who is actively engaging in these discussions, I agree, cause I am also getting annoyed by it.