Have they used their tera to deal with the opponents tera?
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]
- Thread starter TPP
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Hopefully they ban it, and the people who complain about Tera can go play over there!
Maybe tera isnt fun for them
Something something fun isn't a valid reason to
I don't play NatDex, but from what I've heard it's a poorly-balanced metagame barely held together with duck tape and prayers, you could tell me literally anything is too much for their meta and needs to be banned and I'd believe you.
something something someone doenst undertand irony something something
NatDex is actually in a decent state right now imo, at least it's in a better state than OU is.
RE: Garganacl
When HOME had just launched and the meta leaned almost entirely into some of the most fast-paced, breakneck offensive playstyles OU has seen in a long time I think Garg kinda flew under the radar since we had some much more pressing issues to attend to, but now that the meta finally has a little room to breathe I've personally found that Garg actually does benefit quite heavily from those metagame trends. We're seeing more hazard stacking, which means more Boots, which means less Covert Cloak, which means a whole lot more opportunities for our salty boi to force some progress. It's also once again establishing itself as one of the best "selfish" Tera users; you're probably going to just Tera Water this mon and call it a day. There aren't a ton of prominent Grass-types in the HOME meta, and you're certainly not trying to switch a Zapdos, Thundurus, or Rotom-Wash into a Salt Cure. That's a lot of chip damage that two of these can't afford to take, and while Zapdos can Roost it off for a while it wants to save those Roosts to check other stuff.
We've seen some Protect, and I'm sure Curse+EQ will pop up every now and then, but we've also seen a whole lot of Iron Defense with EQ>Body Press and that set's quite devastating since one Iron Defense makes Garg insanely bulky on both ends and it isn't exactly passive by any stretch of the imagination either. This isn't something you can easily break, but while it isn't dishing out OHKOs left and right this incredible, status-immune mixed wall is doing quite a bit of slow breaking itself throughout the game?
I don't know if I think it's an immediate problem or anything, but I definitely think Garg likes some of the metagame shifts we've seen quite a bit and checking it is definitely nearing pre-Walking Wake meta levels of challenging, but I'm not sure if Garg's the problem or if it's the symptom of a series of metagame trends that just happen to favor what it does.
But yeah; Garg's goooood right now.
What's everyone's opinions on Battle Bond Greninja? I've used it a couple of times and I don't mind it I feel like it has a niche for sure. I've used it on rain teams and I've used it outside of rain teams, either Life Orb variants or Choice Specs variants work very well especially against more offensive based teams.
Do you think the wave will die down or the usage will rise?
Greninja @ Choice Specs
Ability: Battle Bond
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- U-turn
- Dark Pulse
- Water Shuriken
- Surf
Ability: Battle Bond
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- U-turn
- Dark Pulse
- Water Shuriken
- Surf
Do you think the wave will die down or the usage will rise?
The wave is Quick Claw spam and using your avi the cheap mon Zapdos to static everything. But Battle Bond Ninja is cool I only like 4 attacks Life Orb personally, Dark Pulse, Hydro, Ice Beam, Grass Knot/Extrasensory (lures in Pex). Has a decent offensive matchup against most of the top tiers.
Feels like the high ELO ladder is full of the same teams right now.
lol, and they also rage easily, any team that doesn’t fit the mold of the highest performing teams is “noob”.
everyone seems so bitter rn… I miss the matches against the regulars haha.
anyone else experiencing this?
weird meta
- spam of 4/5 high pressure threats
- Encore spam
- Sometimes a suicide lead
- Nearly everyone is running speed booster great tusk and usually speed booster valiant
- Tusk and baxcalibur are possibly 60% usage haha
lol, and they also rage easily, any team that doesn’t fit the mold of the highest performing teams is “noob”.
everyone seems so bitter rn… I miss the matches against the regulars haha.
anyone else experiencing this?
weird meta
Sama and Garg 6-0 all those teams if played well so I get the encore spam, all Valiants being physical is surprising with Zapdos being a thing. Can't see the meta becoming stable before dlcs.
To be fair the meta has the opportunity to grow and become stable before DLCs it just depends on the direction where some of the voting will go from either the council or the public. I'm excited to be over and done with the whole Zama-H conversation / debate we've been having for the last 2 weeks and moving onto more dire topics.
I have no faith on that, Volc's and Shifu bans changed nothing but the tera types used on walls and Zapdos running boots instead of helmet, if Zama gets banned not much will change except we will see less encore. I can't imagine a ban being that important that the whole meta will change, even without tera the exact same teams will be used.
We have been vocal asf about kingambit
but the Volcarona red herring was apparently more important.
Gambit being OP was only mildly suppressed by magearna, zamazenta-C and Chien-Pao. Volcarona, who was empowered by literally all 3, got a knee jerk ban hammer instead lol.
we have been talking about gambit non stop in this thread.
you really need 3-4 good checks to it in the late game. There is no “1 good check”, since good positioning, some 50/50 calls, a read or two, and a Tera ace up the sleeve dunks that check on its head, and I’ve seen it dunk up to 3 back to back, so-called “checks”.
next time I see a replay of an “impossible comeback” from a gambit just literally waltzing through the 50/50s I’ll post it.
Unfortunately until something happens in tournament games people don’t take it seriously.
like it doesn’t matter how many times you post replays, they don’t matter because they’re not tournament games.
unfortunate, that’s how it is..
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You lose to garganacl, dragapult, zam-dog or other big threats… it’s your own fault. You lose to kingambit? There’s about a 50% chance it was your fault.. haha
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Working on a tier list rn. So far here is my progress.
These two were a given. The role compression can’t be ignored. Having several different roles on a team and several sets to toy around with. With Tusk I’ve seen Eject Pack, Booster Energy, Rocky Helmet, etc. Gambit just does everything from being a breaker to a ghost resist to a cleaner to a rkiller. Having either one of these mons on a team has very little opportunity cost just cause of what they bring to teams and Home hasn’t changed that.
An incredibly versatile speedy boi that fits on almost every team. There is the Specs, Hex, and Band sets but recently we’ve seen Pult take on the role of a screen setter, and a damn good one. This thing is just too versatile to pass off something. Even with Garg making a resurgence that hasn’t stopped Pult from absolutely flourishing in this meta.
Kyurem 2.0 has been making waves on ladder and tours. It has tons of Teras to abuse such as Tera Fairy, Dragon, Electric, or Ice. One wrong move vs Bax results in a sweep and due to Tera + its bulk, the window for error is low.
Enamorus is Tapu Lele on serious crack. Perfect coverage with the defensive typing to switch into Tusk. There have been appearances of Tera Steel Enamorus that ruin would be checks like Glowking and Ghold. A versatile breaker and cleaner.
Salt rock is back on the map. Even with Home being slightly more hostile and HO-oriented, Garg still got it in terms of providing utility and making constant progress with stupid ass Salt Cure. This has already been said but there is less Covert Cloak usage which will likely come back soon since Garg is surging in popularity.
Ghold does Ghold things. Blocks hazard removal, sets up NP, MiR, Fairy resist, etc. I would put this higher but the meta has adapted to it very well. Stuff that is supposed to check it like Valiant can click Tera Dark or Steel and ruin its day.
Speaking of Valiant, there is very little it can’t do. Between the different teras and utility moves like Encore and Destiny Bond that are game changers. Valiant is just so difficult to read due to the vast library of books it has on it’s shelves.
Dire Claw is broken, Sneasler can mess up teams with SD Unburden. Either Tera Ghost or Dark to mow through would be checks like Ghold and Glowking, or Tera Ground to also hit Pex. Plus it is a great anti-lead vs Samu with Fake Out. A massive threat that can cheese games.
Glowking has been popping off since Home came out. Lots of different moves to make use of besides FS + Chilly Reception. We’ve seen Trick Black Sludge, T-Wave, Flamethrower, even T-Spikes. It soft checks a ton of Pokes in the meta and a slow Regen pivot is always appreciated in the offensive metagame of SV OU.
Zapdos is Top 5 and you can’t tell me otherwise. It just does so much offensively and defensively. No Defog sucks but it hits like a truck while punishing physical attackers with Static in a tier that is stacked with them. Ground immunity that can spread paralysis, pivot, and hit hard.
If anyone has recommendations for placements. Let me know.
These two were a given. The role compression can’t be ignored. Having several different roles on a team and several sets to toy around with. With Tusk I’ve seen Eject Pack, Booster Energy, Rocky Helmet, etc. Gambit just does everything from being a breaker to a ghost resist to a cleaner to a rkiller. Having either one of these mons on a team has very little opportunity cost just cause of what they bring to teams and Home hasn’t changed that.
An incredibly versatile speedy boi that fits on almost every team. There is the Specs, Hex, and Band sets but recently we’ve seen Pult take on the role of a screen setter, and a damn good one. This thing is just too versatile to pass off something. Even with Garg making a resurgence that hasn’t stopped Pult from absolutely flourishing in this meta.
Enamorus is Tapu Lele on serious crack. Perfect coverage with the defensive typing to switch into Tusk. There have been appearances of Tera Steel Enamorus that ruin would be checks like Glowking and Ghold. A versatile breaker and cleaner.
Salt rock is back on the map. Even with Home being slightly more hostile and HO-oriented, Garg still got it in terms of providing utility and making constant progress with stupid ass Salt Cure. This has already been said but there is less Covert Cloak usage which will likely come back soon since Garg is surging in popularity.
Ghold does Ghold things. Blocks hazard removal, sets up NP, MiR, Fairy resist, etc. I would put this higher but the meta has adapted to it very well. Stuff that is supposed to check it like Valiant can click Tera Dark or Steel and ruin its day.
Speaking of Valiant, there is very little it can’t do. Between the different teras and utility moves like Encore and Destiny Bond that are game changers. Valiant is just so difficult to read due to the vast library of books it has on it’s shelves.
Dire Claw is broken, Sneasler can mess up teams with SD Unburden. Either Tera Ghost or Dark to mow through would be checks like Ghold and Glowking, or Tera Ground to also hit Pex. Plus it is a great anti-lead vs Samu with Fake Out. A massive threat that can cheese games.
Glowking has been popping off since Home came out. Lots of different moves to make use of besides FS + Chilly Reception. We’ve seen Trick Black Sludge, T-Wave, Flamethrower, even T-Spikes. It soft checks a ton of Pokes in the meta and a slow Regen pivot is always appreciated in the offensive metagame of SV OU.
Zapdos is Top 5 and you can’t tell me otherwise. It just does so much offensively and defensively. No Defog sucks but it hits like a truck while punishing physical attackers with Static in a tier that is stacked with them. Ground immunity that can spread paralysis, pivot, and hit hard.
If anyone has recommendations for placements. Let me know.
seeing this, and kinda agreeing with most of it, made me realise just how centralized the meta is at the moment.
you have at most, 10 threats that are extremely viable. And then the next 10 are below them in viability by quite a gap. And then the 10 below those are another big gap.
but the stuff in the top 2 are super above even the next 10. It’s ridiculous. This is what happens when you bottle neck hazard removal and gambit checks. Basically a Pokémon is as good as it’s sucker punch resistance.
but then if you didn’t have mr. broken in the position of best Pokémon in OU, you have dragapult running riot.
and you can’t just blame gambit, it’s just the most enabled Pokémon out of them all. The issue is 100% blind Tera. Nearly everything that’s a great threat is either due to pivot/checking ability or the pressure it exudes from “one free turn” or “one surprise turn”.
empirically: try this question: where do you put predictable threats like roaring moon or dragonite?
the only “predictable” “one free turn” threat at the top is garganacl, which is arguably S tier as well.
you can’t run fringe stuff and do it well.. they’re usually dead weight. Games are decided by 1 mistake, 1 crit, 1 miss, 1 flinch, or 1 read. It’s never been this intense.
this meta is whack
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This is what I'm saying, the top mons are too optimized to no be used. Valiant with its godly coverage+booster makes it the perfect cleaner, Garg with Groudon's bulk+recovery+inmunity to status+a move that forces progress unless the rival wastes its item slot is too good, even if something like Gholdengo, Gambit or tera itself get banned the same mons will be still used because there are no reasons to no do it, the only way to solve this is with tutors moves making other mons as good as the top mons while they don't buff the already strong mons too much.
I think a lot of us would agree it’s worth testing “blind Tera”, and proposing the “disclosed Tera” meta as an alternative as a first step.
it keeps almost all the fun of Tera , and might actually make noticeable difference into how narrow margins of error are for games.
the alternative is basically to ban another 5+ Pokémon like a stack of dominoes lol.
it’s gonna be one or the other .. might as well preserve the diversity as long as possible
yeah, i'm pretty pro-tera and i think the mechanic should be preserved in some form but it's becoming clear that something needs to be done. banning the mechanic altogether is off the table because of the sheer amount of work we'd need to do to restructure the meta—almost every banned mon would drop, and nearly all of them would probably go right back up to ubers again. we'd have to do another fucking pao suspect. so that's not an option. tera preview keeps the mechanic itself unchanged while also eliminating a lot of tera's problematic aspects and has official precedent (shitty precedent in a stupid format but precedent nonetheless).
Quoting you threw together since its all the same convo and all have points,
If this meta is chock full of what could be perceived (possibly rightfully so) as broken shit, when is it a fault of the mons and not a fault of our logic?
This is in no words meant to mean that you all are unequivocally wronf af, because y'aren't. There are a very small group of relevant mons rn, being Tusk, Gambit, Valiant, Garg, Ghold, and like 6 others I can't name, that just fucking dominate., discussion and ladder alike, and they don't actively care what item they run when proper building lets all but 1 carry quick claw of all things. And yet, it is their numbers and role in making a quasi-stable, if generally wack for lack of a better term, meta, that makes me wonder if they aren't fully broken.
Its an uneasy concept for sure, but like how Landorus was the king, who kept things in line in prior gens, now it seems that mons like Kingambit and Tusk are keeping ghosts and hazards just at bay. They provide genuine good to the tier, even if they are scarily close to being oppressive, if not already over the line. They, not just the two I mentioned, are all solid mons who generally keep eachother in check, with garg and gambit needing to save and subsequently use their tera to avoid a fighting tusk disaster, or how gambit keeps dragapult from ghosting all over the meta.
Some of them are just genuinely good wallbreakers, like Valiant, while others are amazing utilitymons like Ghold and Tusk. Garg allows more defensive teams to bust past the bulky steels and waters that could wall them back, as well as just being an amazing physical wall / ghost resist when you need one.
All these mons, through their aspects and abilities, provide but one of the many, many things that this meta fucking needs to be slightly stable, even if that stability hinges around them and only them being used. And thats where we loop back to the beginning.
This centralization, not around one dominating force but around a round table of heinous knights, is a problem. You have the meta, and thats it. Off meta ideas are either quashed by raw force, or by being subverted with meta mons. The quick claw panic only worked because it utilized already amazing Pokemon.
So amazing, in fact, that I believe they are S+, and cannot be banned without great catastrophe. Imagine if Tusk was banned. Just tusk, gone. No more great spinner, no more gholdengo answer, no more insane role comp that lets it do what this meta needs done. Or how about no Kingambit? Gholdengo and Dragapult now have no large dark threat on the horizon every game. They only fear other ghosts now.
Ultimately, they are all keystones in a fucked up arch, and an arch that likely needs remodeling from the ground up. They make me question if they are broken, or if OU needs to change, amidst a million middle and extreme ground options. These times are unique, I think, and action must be taken for sure, but what that action is, I have no clue.
Perhaps ubers being a tier by usage, however silly and shitty that may be, is one such path, as is banning tera and going from there. Perhaps the answer was all along some plucky UU star waiting to be born.
Good night everybody, and don't let the Golisopod bite.
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After playing an absolute ton of Freedom cup these past few days I've come a conclusion.
OU should have an item clause. I've found having to manage what mons have what items completely changes the balance of the game and makes it a lot more fair. Especially when you can only have one Boots mon, one Leftovers mon, and most importantly one Booster Energy mon and it also brings a greater variety to the tier IMO using pinch berries, resistance berry's and other items I'd never normally use.
OU should have an item clause. I've found having to manage what mons have what items completely changes the balance of the game and makes it a lot more fair. Especially when you can only have one Boots mon, one Leftovers mon, and most importantly one Booster Energy mon and it also brings a greater variety to the tier IMO using pinch berries, resistance berry's and other items I'd never normally use.
I wouldn't be against trying this if we had more hazard removal in the tier
I actually read this! The formatting made it hard, just FYI.
yes it’s super circular. I actually really like gambit defensive utility, but it’s not right that the only way to beat it is ironically forcing it in, and wearing it out with ghost types… !
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I’ll agree that this meta is in a weird state atm. In order to help improve the tier going forward, what I would suggest is:
While National Dex has nothing to do with the tier itself, I just wanted to point out that they are handling it the right way. When it comes to Tera, you keep it as it is, or you ban it as a whole. There is no in-betweens. So, please stop suggesting Open Tera Previews or Restricting Tera to one Pokémon. It doesn’t solve anything. You’re still playing 50/50 games if the Pokémon is gonna Tera or not, further more it still gets its adaptability or triple stab boosts thanks to Tera along with its new typing. So I don’t understand how these restrictions help fix the problem with Tera. Me personally, I don’t have a problem with the mechanic, I think it’s fine just the way it is. Hopefully after the suspect test of
, we can start making moves for a more fun and healthy meta. Of course with Tera.
- Retest Volcarona <-I just wanna protest
- Suspect Test Kingambit <-Seriously fuck this guy
- Suspect Test Sneasler <-Dire Claw is unskilled and allows Sneasler to cheese pass its C&C
- Suspect Test Garganacl <-Salt Cure, Purifying Salt. Yeah, fuck this thing too
While National Dex has nothing to do with the tier itself, I just wanted to point out that they are handling it the right way. When it comes to Tera, you keep it as it is, or you ban it as a whole. There is no in-betweens. So, please stop suggesting Open Tera Previews or Restricting Tera to one Pokémon. It doesn’t solve anything. You’re still playing 50/50 games if the Pokémon is gonna Tera or not, further more it still gets its adaptability or triple stab boosts thanks to Tera along with its new typing. So I don’t understand how these restrictions help fix the problem with Tera. Me personally, I don’t have a problem with the mechanic, I think it’s fine just the way it is. Hopefully after the suspect test of
, we can start making moves for a more fun and healthy meta. Of course with Tera. 
I was saying that Garg was busted day one of the home meta but people were too interested in all the shiny new toys and truly broken stuff. Tera water is so good because all the electric types really really hate just getting hit by SC, let alone the effect it has and grass is just none existent.
I still think curse garg is the best garg, it gets so many free turns due to salt cure to set up it can snowball so quickly.
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