Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Reqs have never been terribly hard to get, but they are grindy and somewhat luck based. Due to how Pokémon just is, the best players in a meta can just lose games to a bad string of luck out of their control. All raising the bar for reqs would do is turn that grind and luck factor up to eleven, making voting on suspects not feasible for community members that have a life outside of this game. Having the patience/time to grind something hard doesn’t necessarily make you a better or more knowledgeable player.

i think that the main problem with reqs is that they are, by necessity, played in a meta that's unbalanced enough to warrant a suspect test. this can actually end up skewing the vote if something is broken enough for a bunch of less skilled people to coast through the reqs and vote to keep the thing that carried them. i genuinely have no idea how we could actually solve this problem aside from "remove the thing being suspected", but this is apparently a bad idea for some reason, so we're kind of stuck with the system we have until someone can figure out how to make a better one without the suggestion being shouted down immediately

 

[tr8orsrequiem]

Just gonna point this out, I have no interest in whatever the fuck you guys on about, but this was semi mentioned in the whole "china vs NatDex reqs" thing, and the consensus is that

Is the guy good enough to not only invest time in reqs, and actually get them?
if the answer is yes, then the guy is proving himself to be skillfull enough to have a voice of vote

voting is not a right, it's a privilege, that you have to earn, so if that guy got reqs cleanly, let him vote
now, if he didnt got reqs, or didnt even tried or got them dirty, then sure, uncage the bear on him, but yeah, just point that out

I disagree with this. Why should people who don't play or care about the metagame be allowed to vote by coasting off their innate skill? Why should people who don't necessarily have the skill in-game to get reqs but have played and engaged with the community enough to know the meta and know what's best for it be excluded? There is clearly a problem with voting as nothing has gotten done this generation with suspect tests- every time there's something stupidly broken, there's an influx of whiny people voting against our best interests, and the majority of bans this gen have been through QB's. Hell, even with the QB's there's always an influx of people bitching and complaining. I know that always happens, to an extent, but it's definitely gotten worse recently. Didn't Finch get death threats over the Volcarona QB, despite it being blindingly obvious the matchup moth needed to go?

Voting in suspect tests is a privilege, yes. So why is the privilege being given to people who don't fucking care and just want to make the metagame worse?

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Voting in suspect tests is a privilege, yes. So why is the privilege being given to people who don't fucking care and just want to make the metagame worse?

just curious, have you actually gotten reqs in any of these suspects?

 

[Bakugames]

I disagree with this. Why should people who don't play or care about the metagame be allowed to vote by coasting off their innate skill? Why should people who don't necessarily have the skill in-game to get reqs but have played and engaged with the community enough to know the meta and know what's best for it be excluded? There is clearly a problem with voting as nothing has gotten done this generation with suspect tests- every time there's something stupidly broken, there's an influx of whiny people voting against our best interests, and the majority of bans this gen have been through QB's. Hell, even with the QB's there's always an influx of people bitching and complaining. I know that always happens, to an extent, but it's definitely gotten worse recently. Didn't Finch get death threats over the Volcarona QB, despite it being blindingly obvious the matchup moth needed to go?

Voting in suspect tests is a privilege, yes. So why is the privilege being given to people who don't fucking care and just want to make the metagame worse?

Here's the issue
1. A worse metagama is entirely subjective. Beyond the most basic tiering rules. theres people who will enjoy almost any thing that is considered broken, unfun and uncompetitive by someone else. Brushing them aside as just objectively incorrect will not help with accessibility of people to get reqs. Your premise that the issue is this meta is objectively flawed and unviable is biased and so is your conclusion that people who dont agree with your view just dont care about the meta. Its also dumb to just try and point fingers to any group of people you can blame this on. We went through blaming the chinese community, to claiming the people to got reqs are just too dumb, to claiming that theres some mass spite movement to make sv ou "bad". The reality is people have their opinions and they have them earnestly. they can change their mind or they cant. You can't come here, invalidate the results of suspect tests over x or y group and then get mad people arent responding to your argument, which boils down to "theyre wrong and we're right"

2. How will you assign whos a worthy, interested player and who isnt, without falling into your own biases? Forum usage is flawed and english-centric, activity on ladder ignores other ways of interacting with the metagame and being knowledgeable on it, having quizzes/write ups for voting/whatever is prone to abuse and also a huge accessibility issue for non english speakers and anyone who isn't the best at writing down an argument. And how will those measurements work with changing councils and "judges"?

 

[Gohankuten]

On rare occasions, a complex ban may be justified, but why on earth wouldn't you either ban Ninetails-A or Aurora Veil and be done with it? What is so important to preserve that a complex ban would accomplish?

In this case the suggestion was made cause on their own neither Atales nor Veil are broken. They are only broken when combined under Snow Warning giving extremely easy 1-turn Veil setups. Mostly the suggestion was just to see if anyone even wanted to bother considering it since I know in previous gens it hadn't been a real problem and it's only this gen that it really became a problem so I was thinking of ways to make it not as much a problem without actually getting rid of anything.

 

[Real Pikachu]

In this case the suggestion was made cause on their own neither Atales nor Veil are broken. They are only broken when combined under Snow Warning giving extremely easy 1-turn Veil setups. Mostly the suggestion was just to see if anyone even wanted to bother considering it since I know in previous gens it hadn't been a real problem and it's only this gen that it really became a problem so I was thinking of ways to make it not as much a problem without actually getting rid of anything.

See that would be reasonable except it isn't broken, like, even a little. Bax is.

 

[658Greninja]

I disagree with this. Why should people who don't play or care about the metagame be allowed to vote by coasting off their innate skill? Why should people who don't necessarily have the skill in-game to get reqs but have played and engaged with the community enough to know the meta and know what's best for it be excluded? There is clearly a problem with voting as nothing has gotten done this generation with suspect tests- every time there's something stupidly broken, there's an influx of whiny people voting against our best interests, and the majority of bans this gen have been through QB's. Hell, even with the QB's there's always an influx of people bitching and complaining. I know that always happens, to an extent, but it's definitely gotten worse recently. Didn't Finch get death threats over the Volcarona QB, despite it being blindingly obvious the matchup moth needed to go?

Voting in suspect tests is a privilege, yes. So why is the privilege being given to people who don't fucking care and just want to make the metagame worse?

Lmfao if people didn’t have to get reqs to vote, we’d see nothing get banned cause 1000-1200 players don’t want anything gone except Lando/Tusk.

The whole point of reqs is so the votes are educated and come from experience playing at a high level. Its important to distinguish between having metagame knowledge and applying that metagame knowledge into a game-to-game basis. Trust me, I might have a worthy amount of metagame knowledge and I built several teams, but I wouldn’t say I am a high level player.

Also nobody wants the metagame to be “ruined”

People just have different opinions on what is an issue and what isn’t. Some say its Veil, others say its Bax, some might claim its Ogerpon, Ghold, or Manaphy, Srn will say its Tera, but at the end of the day, we are trying to work with the time we have to sort everything out.

 

[ant4456]

I'm of the opinion that the suspect test system is flawed and counter intuitive. If you like it or not, Smogon is taking the role of redesigning the game, a game designer for a new Pokemon 6v6 tier. Banning certain mechanics and rebalancing the game with specific goals is something a game designer does.

I do not think that being good or bad at the game necessarily means you have good and bad opinions respectively, nor do I believe good players are good at balancing games, or designing games by virtue of them being good at the game. This goes across almost every competitive game I've played and will ever play.

I think Smogon would do better to simply pick a direction. Do you want democracy-style tiering where you open it up to people to pick the destiny of the tier? Then do that, in which case suspect tests are relatively pointless; we are acknowledging that every player's input is worth at least something, and thus they should 100% have a real vote, as in a democracy.

Do you want the opposite, tiering to be done by a few select good players? I think having only the council make decisions is also better in that case, with suspect tests only serving to end deadlocks. A Suspect Test is leaving the tier in the fate of a very small percentage of players, but non-council players nonetheless, and doing that enough could go against the vision of what in this method is the game designers of the tier. Thus, suspect tests would only exist in order to settle disputes among the council, rather than to fundamentally alter the vision of the tier.

That is my opinion. I do not like this middleground solution, I find it to be patronizing in many ways to either side, frankly.

 

[Moyashi]

Lmfao if people didn’t have to get reqs to vote, we’d see nothing get banned cause 1000-1200 players don’t want anything gone except Lando/Tusk.

The whole point of reqs is so the votes are educated and come from experience playing at a high level. Its important to distinguish between having metagame knowledge and applying that metagame knowledge into a game-to-game basis. Trust me, I might have a worthy amount of metagame knowledge and I built several teams, but I wouldn’t say I am a high level player.

Also nobody wants the metagame to be “ruined”

People just have different opinions on what is an issue and what isn’t. Some say its Veil, others say its Bax, some might claim its Ogerpon, Ghold, or Manaphy, Srn will say its Tera, but at the end of the day, we are trying to work with the time we have to sort everything out.

This is the best post I've seen on the matter. Nicely put.

On a not related note, the recent discovery of Overpon's masks granting its elemental forms extra power on theit attacks (including coverage) has made me rethink my views on them. They all seemed alright before, but now they've got quite a bit going for them.


The most out and out dangerous form. A great stab combo combined with Mold Breaker makes this pretty formidable, and very difficult to wall. Post tera giving it a permanent +1 attack boost lets it fulfill a role on HO too, but I've seen it the most on Sun teams which jacks up the strength of Ivy Cudgel (fire) to rather ridiculous levels. It's limited by not being the fasted around, needing a speed boost (usually from trailblaze) to threaten a sweep but if it can do so, it's hard to stop.

I haven't seen this one as much but it seems like the potentially most multifaceted one due to water typing naturally being flexible and its good movepool. There may be potential for utility sets, as even non invested ivy Cudgel hits hard thanks to the 20% boost from its mask. Feels harder to use right now due to veils and thus snow being everywhere, but if Bax gets the axe then maybe this will see more use (and its still solid on rain, with the post tera spdef boost letting it potentially avoid being revenge killed easily).

This is the form I feel is most anti meta. The access to sturdy and a nice offensive profile let's it lead off well, especially against veil teams as it has a chance to just OHKO Ninetales from full and deny the screens. Or it can taunt them if you want to be sure. Past that, if sturdy is in tact it can soft check things and if you just want it to do damage, it's a good wallbreaker as rock type ivy Cudgel is Greta against a lot of common Pokemon. If you tack on knock, it can even blow up Gholdengo depending on the set.

I haven't seen much of the base Ogerpon which is why I didn't include it. Anyone have any insights on it? Also please share your experiences with this Pokemon and which you've found to be the best so far!

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

I haven't seen much of the base Ogerpon which is why I didn't include it. Anyone have any insights on it?

she can hold an item!

…which is basically all she has going for her. i suppose you could use her as a spikes setter because defiant lets her punish defog, but she doesn't have a good matchup against literally any defogger. knock off + u-turn is neat, especially considering she's the only ogerpon form that can wear shoes (i guess the other masks are too big and get in the way?), so i could see use as a utility mon. problem is, her stat spread is built for offense, in which she's outclassed by… well, by three more of herself

 

[pika pal]

Despite my badge there is a MASSIVE disparity between my posting on the forum and the amount of games I play competently. I am a prime example of why Reqs are the way to gauge the voters, because those are players who can win in the Suspect Meta and still say "yeah this still ain't it" rather than coming down to frequent players salty about something they have trouble with or wanting to keep easy wins (ironically stereotypes leveraged against Smogon every time something gets banned from OU).

This is the best post I've seen on the matter. Nicely put.

On a not related note, the recent discovery of Overpon's masks granting its elemental forms extra power on theit attacks (including coverage) has made me rethink my views on them. They all seemed alright before, but now they've got quite a bit going for them.

View attachment 552325
The most out and out dangerous form. A great stab combo combined with Mold Breaker makes this pretty formidable, and very difficult to wall. Post tera giving it a permanent +1 attack boost lets it fulfill a role on HO too, but I've seen it the most on Sun teams which jacks up the strength of Ivy Cudgel (fire) to rather ridiculous levels. It's limited by not being the fasted around, needing a speed boost (usually from trailblaze) to threaten a sweep but if it can do so, it's hard to stop.
View attachment 552326
I haven't seen this one as much but it seems like the potentially most multifaceted one due to water typing naturally being flexible and its good movepool. There may be potential for utility sets, as even non invested ivy Cudgel hits hard thanks to the 20% boost from its mask. Feels harder to use right now due to veils and thus snow being everywhere, but if Bax gets the axe then maybe this will see more use (and its still solid on rain, with the post tera spdef boost letting it potentially avoid being revenge killed easily).
View attachment 552327
This is the form I feel is most anti meta. The access to sturdy and a nice offensive profile let's it lead off well, especially against veil teams as it has a chance to just OHKO Ninetales from full and deny the screens. Or it can taunt them if you want to be sure. Past that, if sturdy is in tact it can soft check things and if you just want it to do damage, it's a good wallbreaker as rock type ivy Cudgel is Greta against a lot of common Pokemon. If you tack on knock, it can even blow up Gholdengo depending on the set.

I haven't seen much of the base Ogerpon which is why I didn't include it. Anyone have any insights on it? Also please share your experiences with this Pokemon and which you've found to be the best so far!

My favorite of the forms is Cornerstone, as the two STABs complement each other well against anything bar Steel types, for which you have Low Kick to hit, Knock Off to disrupt, or simply a common enough role that you'll have to cover regardless of Ogerpon's role. Compared to Hearthflame's extreme power to barrel through things neutrally, Cornerstone's a bit more tactical in that it can kill things if you pick the right move (EX: Moltres with Cudgel where it would resist both STABs on Hearth) while gaining more longevity from the Hazard typing.

The big issue I think Teal Mask Ogerpon faces is that she's ironically the most Tera Dependent of the forms, given the importance of the speed boost and a need to make up for her middling power/coverage without a typed Ivy Cudgel. It entails reserving your Tera for Embody Aspect compared to the other forms where it's more an option (Hearth wants the Power but at least has good STAB coverage and Mold Breaker to buoy its base form).

Its best prospect to me would be as a late game cleaner once everything accumulates hazard damage and potential Teras or surprises are sorted, plus makes it better suited to team support like Double-Grass cores with Rillaboom's Terrain and pivoting. The problem there becomes its shaky at best against Kingambit, the quintessential endgame, especially if it has the right Tera intact to resist its STAB + Coverage choice (Fairy/Flying being especially bad there) while being too tanky to just plow through off Tera-STAB stacking. In short, a lategame mon that struggles with the current most common endgame is a problem unless other uses are found like a fast SubSeed pivot or something.

 

[sims796]

Despite my badge there is a MASSIVE disparity between my posting on the forum and the amount of games I play competently. I am a prime example of why Reqs are the way to gauge the voters, because those are players who can win in the Suspect Meta and still say "yeah this still ain't it" rather than coming down to frequent players salty about something they have trouble with or wanting to keep easy wins (ironically stereotypes leveraged against Smogon every time something gets banned from OU).


My favorite of the forms is Cornerstone, as the two STABs complement each other well against anything bar Steel types, for which you have Low Kick to hit, Knock Off to disrupt, or simply a common enough role that you'll have to cover regardless of Ogerpon's role. Compared to Hearthflame's extreme power to barrel through things neutrally, Cornerstone's a bit more tactical in that it can kill things if you pick the right move (EX: Moltres with Cudgel where it would resist both STABs on Hearth) while gaining more longevity from the Hazard typing.

The big issue I think Teal Mask Ogerpon faces is that she's ironically the most Tera Dependent of the forms, given the importance of the speed boost and a need to make up for her middling power/coverage without a typed Ivy Cudgel. It entails reserving your Tera for Embody Aspect compared to the other forms where it's more an option (Hearth wants the Power but at least has good STAB coverage and Mold Breaker to buoy its base form).

Its best prospect to me would be as a late game cleaner once everything accumulates hazard damage and potential Teras or surprises are sorted, plus makes it better suited to team support like Double-Grass cores with Rillaboom's Terrain and pivoting. The problem there becomes its shaky at best against Kingambit, the quintessential endgame, especially if it has the right Tera intact to resist its STAB + Coverage choice (Fairy/Flying being especially bad there) while being too tanky to just plow through off Tera-STAB stacking. In short, a lategame mon that struggles with the current most common endgame is a problem unless other uses are found like a fast SubSeed pivot or something.

And Meowscarada sounds like a better Subseed pivot -er to me

 

[Real Pikachu]

My favorite of the forms is Cornerstone, as the two STABs complement each other well against anything bar Steel types, for which you have Low Kick to hit, Knock Off to disrupt, or simply a common enough role that you'll have to cover regardless of Ogerpon's role.

Cornerstone goes insanely hard.

252 Atk Cornerstone Mask Tera Rock Ogerpon-Cornerstone-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Baxcalibur in Snow with an ally's Aurora Veil: 178-210 (47.9 - 56.6%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO after Ice Body recovery
100% accuracy Stone Edge is a hell of a drug coming off 120 base.
252 Atk Baxcalibur Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Rock Ogerpon-Cornerstone-Tera: 170-210 (56.4 - 69.7%) -- approx. 2HKO
It can't even 2HKO you back unless they go for Scale Shot and risk the miss or Tera.

 

[Deathbringer7]

This is the best post I've seen on the matter. Nicely put.

On a not related note, the recent discovery of Overpon's masks granting its elemental forms extra power on theit attacks (including coverage) has made me rethink my views on them. They all seemed alright before, but now they've got quite a bit going for them.

View attachment 552325
The most out and out dangerous form. A great stab combo combined with Mold Breaker makes this pretty formidable, and very difficult to wall. Post tera giving it a permanent +1 attack boost lets it fulfill a role on HO too, but I've seen it the most on Sun teams which jacks up the strength of Ivy Cudgel (fire) to rather ridiculous levels. It's limited by not being the fasted around, needing a speed boost (usually from trailblaze) to threaten a sweep but if it can do so, it's hard to stop.
View attachment 552326
I haven't seen this one as much but it seems like the potentially most multifaceted one due to water typing naturally being flexible and its good movepool. There may be potential for utility sets, as even non invested ivy Cudgel hits hard thanks to the 20% boost from its mask. Feels harder to use right now due to veils and thus snow being everywhere, but if Bax gets the axe then maybe this will see more use (and its still solid on rain, with the post tera spdef boost letting it potentially avoid being revenge killed easily).
View attachment 552327
This is the form I feel is most anti meta. The access to sturdy and a nice offensive profile let's it lead off well, especially against veil teams as it has a chance to just OHKO Ninetales from full and deny the screens. Or it can taunt them if you want to be sure. Past that, if sturdy is in tact it can soft check things and if you just want it to do damage, it's a good wallbreaker as rock type ivy Cudgel is Greta against a lot of common Pokemon. If you tack on knock, it can even blow up Gholdengo depending on the set.

I haven't seen much of the base Ogerpon which is why I didn't include it. Anyone have any insights on it? Also please share your experiences with this Pokemon and which you've found to be the best so far!

I think Water Oger will struggle a bit in Bax meta but after Bax ban, I think this will rise to be a crucial part of balance, especially since it completely walls the daylights out of manaphy (you can't tail glow since it just encores you) and is a great stopgap to rain as well as acting as a useful Walking Wake Hydro Steam switch. And it does all this while being a threatening mon in its own right. Definitely excited to use it more after the meta becomes more conducive to it.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

How's torn-t doing now that it has knock off back, guessing its probably very splashable and good again with its most useful utility move back, but we will have to wait and see when Bax goes since Bax is just that ridiculous.

I think knock off definitely should bring tornadus-t back to OU when the meta settles though, torn-t loves having knock back as it can do what it used to do again, consistently making progress by knocking items and pivoting on stuff while occasionally launching off other moves like bleakwind and heat Wave. Looking forward to having the old torn-t back here, as having such a splashable wallbreaker that can remove items is always great.

 

[tommytt22]

Cornerstone goes insanely hard.

252 Atk Cornerstone Mask Tera Rock Ogerpon-Cornerstone-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Baxcalibur in Snow with an ally's Aurora Veil: 178-210 (47.9 - 56.6%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO after Ice Body recovery
100% accuracy Stone Edge is a hell of a drug coming off 120 base.
252 Atk Baxcalibur Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Rock Ogerpon-Cornerstone-Tera: 170-210 (56.4 - 69.7%) -- approx. 2HKO
It can't even 2HKO you back unless they go for Scale Shot and risk the miss or Tera.

I'm not too sure what you mean by that, bax unboosted icicle spear is a clear 2HKO? Unless you mean it doesnt outspeed you for the second attack. Either way if i have aurora veil up, then I'm a greedy bastard and tera fairy/poison/steel -> swords dance -> i win. Ogerpon is cool but if youve let baxcalibur in without damaging it and with veil up youve pretty much lost, cannot wait for this thing to get banned, no idea why it hasnt been quickbanned yet.

In this case the suggestion was made cause on their own neither Atales nor Veil are broken. They are only broken when combined under Snow Warning giving extremely easy 1-turn Veil setups. Mostly the suggestion was just to see if anyone even wanted to bother considering it since I know in previous gens it hadn't been a real problem and it's only this gen that it really became a problem so I was thinking of ways to make it not as much a problem without actually getting rid of anything.

Also anyone complaining about aurora veil, we've had it with abomasnow for a while, its not broken especially since cinderace can steal that shit with court change. Every other weather setter is also slower than ninetails too so if you counter lead with them it screws their weather.

 

[Guyoftheego]

I'm not too sure what you mean by that, bax unboosted icicle spear is a clear 2HKO? Unless you mean it doesnt outspeed you for the second attack. Either way if i have aurora veil up, then I'm a greedy bastard and tera fairy/poison/steel -> swords dance -> i win. Ogerpon is cool but if youve let baxcalibur in without damaging it and with veil up youve pretty much lost, cannot wait for this thing to get banned, no idea why it hasnt been quickbanned yet.




Also anyone complaining about aurora veil, we've had it with abomasnow for a while, its not broken especially since cinderace can steal that shit with court change. Every other weather setter is also slower than ninetails too so if you counter lead with them it screws their weather.

While I personally think Bax is the problem child right now, I think there's a lot that could make ATales specifically too good for OU in a way most other screens setters aren't. Being able to save a turn setting up is obviously a boon vs setters like Pult and Grimmsnarl, but unlike Abomasnow it has a lot more going for it too. Its fast, it has access to incredible utility in Encore, and Ice Fairy is just plainly a better defensive typing than Ice Grass is. Plus, while it's far from consistent, Hypnosis is a great option as well.

Assuming Bax is removed from OU in the near future, I think it's worth looking at how ATales might be breaking other pokemon. I don't think Manaphy is a good mon to look at in this regard because its pretty busted outside of Veil HO as well on rain and such, but I could see Kommo-o, a newly buffed Chomp (who can do pretty much the same SD-ScaleShot set that Bax can do), and even more niche picks like Frosmoth all making a case for ATales being broken in the future. We'll just have to see how the meta plays out.

Also, Ace being able to steal screens isn't a great argument against Veil being broken as it's only one mon. If Ace ends up being the only viable counterplay, that still isn't healthy.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Do you guys think Hearthflame is gonna get banned, that Mon is not gonna be okay when Bax goes.

I saw a calc that with an SD in Sun it can apparently okho a Lugia from full with embody aspect, why is this thing OU again?

 

[Smashburn]

I just wanted to make a quick post about some of the changes we got with the most recent DLC. I honestly liked a lot of these changes and some of the new content, but some of just made me want to vomit. Enjoy.

Clefable

Clefable
"Stupid pink blob."

A lot happened with Clefable to change its viability, namely the sheer amount of natural counterplay available to the metagame and the level of hostility towards the playstyle Clefable thrives in. Cinderace, Clodsire, Gholdengo, Heatran, Iron Moth, Moltres, Hearthflame, Slowking-Galar, Sneasler, and others create a hostile environment for a passive Clefable. Additionally, weather like hail and rain make Moonlight inconsistent recovery, while WishTect leaves Clefable exploitable. Clefable was significantly nerfed when it lost Slack Off, but the highlights of its passive nature are working against it.

Gliscor

Gliscor
"We thought Landorus was dropping to UU lmao."

I say this with sincerity, I have never seen such a fall from grace. Not only did they nerf recovery moves, they removed Roost from Gliscor and attempted to substitute it with the empty promise of coverage. Nothing disappoints me more than a longstanding OU staple being disgraced by a receding movepool; it's effectively a worse Ting-Lu.

Rillaboom and Tornadus-Therian

Rillaboom and Tornadus
"Aaannnddd we're back."

With the reintroduction of Knock Off and Grassy Glide, Rillaboom and Tornadus are back in OU. While they received some significant nerfs (Grassy Glide nerf and Defog loss), neither have been disqualified from OU and will continue to do well. I'm personally very excited to see both return to OU after being briefly dispatched to UU, and will be anticipating a lot of creative shenanigans thanks to Tera.

Fin

I stir up controversy everywhere I go at this point so I might as well leave you all with some questions.

1. How broken is Baxcalibur?
2. What do you think of Hearthflame?
3. What do you think about other returning faces like Manaphy and Kommo-o?
4. Is Fezandipiti just cope?
5. Obvious broken pokemon aside, what else do you think is unhealthy for OU?
6. Last but not least, do you think Tera or Tera Blast needs to go? Neither?

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Fin

I stir up controversy everywhere I go at this point so I might as well leave you all with some questions.
5. Obvious broken pokemon aside, what else do you think is unhealthy for OU?
6. Last but not least, do you think Tera or Tera Blast needs to go? Neither?

5. Hearthflame ogerpon is probably ridiculously unhealthy, calcs are insanely ridiculous and it has trailblaze and SD to make it obnoxiously ridiculous
6. tera probably broken, probably has to go for a stable meta at this point

 

[Red Raven]

I just wanted to make a quick post about some of the changes we got with the most recent DLC. I honestly liked a lot of these changes and some of the new content, but some of just made me want to vomit. Enjoy.

Clefable

Clefable
"Stupid pink blob."

A lot happened with Clefable to change its viability, namely the sheer amount of natural counterplay available to the metagame and the level of hostility towards the playstyle Clefable thrives in. Cinderace, Clodsire, Gholdengo, Heatran, Iron Moth, Moltres, Hearthflame, Slowking-Galar, Sneasler, and others create a hostile environment for a passive Clefable. Additionally, weather like hail and rain make Moonlight inconsistent recovery, while WishTect leaves Clefable exploitable. Clefable was significantly nerfed when it lost Slack Off, but the highlights of its passive nature are working against it.

I am so glad that they nerfed Clefable because I HATE THIS STUPID ASS blob. That annoying smile on its face really pisses me off. A mere tool should not have that smile

Having said that, I don't think it's just Clefable that's gonna have a hard time. I'm thinking many other fairies will due to the presence of fire and poison types in the tier making their lives miserable. Think Moltres as a perfect example in addition the ones you listed. I am finally glad that fairies are now having a bad time because I don't think GF was in their right mind when they introduced it to the game. Seriously, how tf do you introduce a type that is great offensively and is only weak to two of the questionable offensive types. Don't get me wrong, the steel and poison types we have are great offensively but it still bothers me how fairy is only weak to those two types, which on their own are not that great offensively

I wish we would get even more broken mons not necessarily for OU but for Ubers because honestly, fuck Arceus Fairy. I wish Necrozma came back :(

Gliscor

Gliscor
"We thought Landorus was dropping to UU lmao."

I say this with sincerity, I have never seen such a fall from grace. Not only did they nerf recovery moves, they removed Roost from Gliscor and attempted to substitute it with the empty promise of coverage. Nothing disappoints me more than a longstanding OU staple being disgraced by a receding movepool; it's effectively a worse Ting-Lu.

Is Gliscor really that much worse? Doesn't it still have taunt? And it did gain both versions of spikes so it's really nothing to scoff at

Rillaboom and Tornadus-Therian

Rillaboom and Tornadus
"Aaannnddd we're back."

With the reintroduction of Knock Off and Grassy Glide, Rillaboom and Tornadus are back in OU. While they received some significant nerfs (Grassy Glide nerf and Defog loss), neither have been disqualified from OU and will continue to do well. I'm personally very excited to see both return to OU after being briefly dispatched to UU, and will be anticipating a lot of creative shenanigans thanks to Tera.

I'm actually quite excited for Tornadus. Since it no longer has defog, maybe it can use its old assault vest set from gen six. The old u turn, knock off, whatever its signature move is called, and whatever last move you want, maybe even brick break to destroy screens. Aside from good ol Garchomp regaining scale shot, I'm just waiting for the chaos to subside for this thing to return

Fin

I stir up controversy everywhere I go at this point so I might as well leave you all with some questions.

1. How broken is Baxcalibur?
2. What do you think of Hearthflame?
3. What do you think about other returning faces like Manaphy and Kommo-o?
4. Is Fezandipiti just cope?
5. Obvious broken pokemon aside, what else do you think is unhealthy for OU?
6. Last but not least, do you think Tera or Tera Blast needs to go? Neither?

1. I think its ridiculous especially with Alolan Ninetales. That defense boost in hail can really screw you over if you're not careful

2. It's annoying. It's often a dead giveaway that it will tera but I haven't encountered it enough to make a good decision

3. Manaphy is stupid especially under veil. I'm in agreement with those that think something should be done whether that's by getting rid of IceZilla or IceFox

4. What do you mean by "cope"? Personally, I think I'm kinda liking this thing because it seems to be a hard counter to Iron Vailiant. Even resisting knock off and it has roost and u turn

5. Right now, Alolan Ninetales. Trying to change the weather requires a committed team and this mon is just ridiculous

6. I still think that all discussions about Tera should be stopped and try a separate ladder that has that Tera on team preview. That way, we can see if this works and if not, we ban it. Right now, I'm personally thinking a ban would be better simply because the ability to just flip your type matchups is really annoying

 

[Mikegengsta]

I am so glad that they nerfed Clefable because I HATE THIS STUPID ASS blob. That annoying smile on its face really pisses me off. A mere tool should not have that smile

Having said that, I don't think it's just Clefable that's gonna have a hard time. I'm thinking many other fairies will due to the presence of fire and poison types in the tier making their lives miserable. Think Moltres as a perfect example in addition the ones you listed. I am finally glad that fairies are now having a bad time because I don't think GF was in their right mind when they introduced it to the game. Seriously, how tf do you introduce a type that is great offensively and is only weak to two of the questionable offensive types. Don't get me wrong, the steel and poison types we have are great offensively but it still bothers me how fairy is only weak to those two types, which on their own are not that great offensively

I wish we would get even more broken mons not necessarily for OU but for Ubers because honestly, fuck Arceus Fairy. I wish Necrozma came back :(



Is Gliscor really that much worse? Doesn't it still have taunt? And it did gain both versions of spikes so it's really nothing to scoff at



I'm actually quite excited for Tornadus. Since it no longer has defog, maybe it can use its old assault vest set from gen six. The old u turn, knock off, whatever its signature move is called, and whatever last move you want, maybe even brick break to destroy screens. Aside from good ol Garchomp regaining scale shot, I'm just waiting for the chaos to subside for this thing to return



1. I think its ridiculous especially with Alolan Ninetales. That defense boost in hail can really screw you over if you're not careful

2. It's annoying. It's often a dead giveaway that it will tera but I haven't encountered it enough to make a good decision

3. Manaphy is stupid especially under veil. I'm in agreement with those that think something should be done whether that's by getting rid of IceZilla or IceFox

4. What do you mean by "cope"? Personally, I think I'm kinda liking this thing because it seems to be a hard counter to Iron Vailiant. Even resisting knock off and it has roost and u turn

5. Right now, Alolan Ninetales. Trying to change the weather requires a committed team and this mon is just ridiculous

6. I still think that all discussions about Tera should be stopped and try a separate ladder that has that Tera on team preview. That way, we can see if this works and if not, we ban it. Right now, I'm personally thinking a ban would be better simply because the ability to just flip your type matchups is really annoying

Funny that we are looking at icefox or veil getting banned. That mon did the same thing in SwSh era. If anything, need to evaluate bax because veil or icefox ain’t it.

 

[SentSawTooMuch]

Hows Manaphy? For rain teams I just used the typical Gen 7 tail glow set in rain but I heard it got a new signature move. Is there still advantages to tail glow or is take heart better?

 

[WilhelmTheOkay]

Hows Manaphy? For rain teams I just used the typical Gen 7 tail glow set in rain but I heard it got a new signature move. Is there still advantages to tail glow or is take heart better?

If you are using Manaphy on rain then there is zero benefit to using Take Heart over Tail Glow. The +3 boost from Tail Glow is just so insanely good it’s hard to justify Take Heart, especially in Rain where the status healing element of the move is already taken care of by Manaphy’s ability Hydration.

 

[awyp]

I stir up controversy everywhere I go at this point so I might as well leave you all with some questions.

1. How broken is Baxcalibur?
2. What do you think of Hearthflame?
3. What do you think about other returning faces like Manaphy and Kommo-o?
4. Is Fezandipiti just cope?
5. Obvious broken pokemon aside, what else do you think is unhealthy for OU?
6. Last but not least, do you think Tera or Tera Blast needs to go? Neither?

1. How broken is Baxcalibur? I think it's pretty broken (similar to Kingambit but worthy of a suspect test over a quick-ban)
2. What do you think of Hearthflame? Really good to be honest, should def get suspect tested when the storm clears out.
3. What do you think about other returning faces like Manaphy and Kommo-o? Manaphy might get banned or suspect tested, I think Kommo has a place in the meta.
4. Is Fezandipiti just cope? Idk what this means
5. Obvious broken pokemon aside, what else do you think is unhealthy for OU? I think the toxic triplets might be an issue but currently no, just Manaphy and Baxcalibur
6. Last but not least, do you think Tera or Tera Blast needs to go? Neither? Yeah, no idea of the 19th tera type I think as of yet so I'm going to say Tera Blast ban for sure.