And you know what? I like how the meta handled Kingam it, even if I feel it was wrong. A vote was taken. Discussion was had. I'm not as sold on King leaving as I once was before I came
That heatfireshit got me good in my sides wish I could like and laugh a comment.
i do have to say, it's pretty funny how the first verse of "a farewell to kings" is a perfect description of our collective regret over the failed gambit suspect
i'm just going to keep corrupting its name more and more on purpose. by next week i'll be calling it, like, firestonetires or heartattack or something
Bax: lots of people already wanted him gone because guess what Kyurem-Black with SD is really good, especially when you can just decide to not be weak to your counters because haha Tera funny. If he doesn't get banned it'll be because Dirge rises back to OU, and every team just has to have an Unaware mon not named Clef now.
a tera suspect would take up a third of the lifespan of this meta, and it'd have to wait until after things start to stabilize. i don't think that's in the cards
It works good for me, it mostly removes snow from Ninetales Alola and its a bulky mon overall, with Specs you can just in on Iron Valiant, click Flamethrower and kill something, it also combines well with Great Tusk and Hearthflame Ogerpon.
- I don't think this one's very controversial. Scale Shot is an enormous buff even when Bax doesn't click it because the raw threat of letting it boost Speed means you have to play risky games with your Fairy super often (assuming you even have one), and its bulk esp under veil is just dumb. 0/0 Bax under Veil in Snow - not at all unrealistic considering Ninetales's usage - has comparable physical bulk to max spdef Blissey's special bulk, so it's essentially unbreakable on that side... with Ice Body in the mix it's actually heinous levels of bulky, having a roll to live **three!** CCs from Great Tusk. Absolutely needs a QB imo. 
- seen a lot of talk about this, I don't necessarily think it has to go just yet. It is immensely threatening and is part of what makes Veil as good as it is but I think losing its best buddy in Bax would be a large hit and stuff like Ogerpon is trending up which does weaken Manaphy overall. I would like this one to be kept under close watch but it's /fine/ for now.
- just an incredibly silly mon but held back by the fact that weather is everywhere so moonlight is tough to use. I think this will be broken once ninetales dies down; not much reason to act on it right now though
- i think this one's totally fine, it is mega lethal but it's held back rly hard by sr weakness, only okay speed, tera/item lock etc - even with the hearthflame mask being discovered to give a 1.2x boost to everything it still really misses potential boots. i think once the meta settles down a little bit it's going to just be a good mon, very threatening and efficient at shredding balance cores once it's on the field but getting it on the field will be another story i think
/ 
- i think these are both in the same boat of "should definitely not be banned", at least until we explore our options. ninetales is generally a pretty bad pokemon, and sv is no different even with the snow buff. the 2 screens in 1 turn thing is hurt quite hard by its inability to generate safe turns for its teammates the way other screens like dragapult (curse) or grimmsnarl (parting shot) do. with that said it enables bax to a ludicrous degree and as such is easily the best screener rn - if bax is gone and the ice types it supports are more along the lines of frosmoth/alolan sandslash i think it will be a lot worse. light clay similarly has proven itself to not be broken before and will do so again once the screens popularity dies a bit, which it inevitably will.There are, like, 2 relevant vacuum wave users in valiant and Ursaluna I think? That's not much.
Gholdengo having to run its most viable item isn't really a punishment, and we'll see if it's undue preparation, but the strategy's basic counterplay (hazards, knock off, encore, offensive steels) tend to be things most teams carry anyway. There's also the fact that although unaware is less popular than it was that any unaware Pokémon completely invalidates all setup which is the bread and butter of screens teams - Espathra argument (it can break unawares with stored power) doesn't apply here either because stored power Manaphy really has a hard time with its lack of ability to increase speed and with getting actual power from stored power without take heart, which takes 2.5x as many turns to get the offensive power it gets from tail glow
i still think its most viable items are cloak, boots, and scarf. gholdengo just looks stylish in any article of clothing, really
They have criticized the metagame plenty in the past. Their arguments have been heard many, many, many times, and their positions known. Do they need to spell it out every time what their exact criticisms are, over and over and over, leaving the thread repeating the same few topics?
No one said the game was unplayable. It is unsalvagable, so long as the community refuses to actually address the issues in the metagame, which it has shown recently to be completely incapable of, even with blatantly broken mons such as Kingambit. The mon's on 60% of teams as an offensive win condition- that's objectively unhealthy, no matter how you want to try and spin it. With regards to tera, yes, the community was wrong in voting against banning it, and I don't think there's much debate to be had. The pro-tera crowd has never had any real argument for its remaining in the metagame other than, "it's fun, lol" and screaming "skill issue!!! dandori issue!!!!" at anyone who dares to say they're in favor of banning it. And Gambit is exactly what I'm talking about when I say that the council needs to have some way to check the community when the community makes obviously bad decisions- the fact that people didn't put enough thought into their vote and just kneejerked into "do not ban!!!!!!" when they heard there was a suspect test shows there's a serious problem in the community right now, and the council needs to be able to counter that problem. Right now they aren't.
You seem to enjoy discounting arguments you don't like, huh? How many suspects have we had? How many have resulted in bans, and how many times did a horde of people come out of the woodwork to whine about the suspect and vote DNB no matter what the suspect is? This generation has been defined by shit like this.
You're free to have whatever (bad) opinion you want, but then I ask, why are you even here? Go play VGC (the metagame with objectively uncompetitive aspects such as unrestricted evasion and OHKO moves, I remind you) if you want a hyperoffensive hellscape. That is not what Singles should be.
Smogon does not, and should not, focus purely around voting what metagame is more "fun". It's about balance. This and the above post are exactly why I believe that the voting reqs need to be changed, because clearly neither of you know or care enough about the metagame to give a shit about its balance.
you know "enjoyed" can mean more than "im only voting because this makes me so hysterical i enter a state of mania" right. you know people can think the stuff you think is broken and stupid is balanced and fine right.
This is the exact kind of bad faith bs I'm talking about. Climbing on some nonexistent high horse and trying to act like your stance is the correct one. Anyone who is pro tera is just wrong. I don't even particularly like the mechanic, but this sort of attitude helps absolutely no one and you're not convincing people otherwise by acting like that.
Saying the council should effectively be able to undermine a ban vote does nothing but undermines the trust between community and council, and only makes everything worse. Council is respecting the results, and it's always possible to look at it again in the future.
knock it off. You're acting like an ass to someone for having an opinion (there's no such thing as a wrong opinion) you disagree with.
"People who disagree with me don't know what they're talking about!! They shouldn't be able to vote!! >:///"
Nope. No thanks
Stop putting words in my mouth. My proposition for changing the voting reqs has always been to focus less on raw performance and more on community contribution and evidence that they've even played the relevant metagame before the suspect. I've said it before, but I'll say it again- as it stands right now, some random asshole who only plays VGC and wants to annoy everyone who plays OU can waltz in during a suspect, use their skill that they've gotten from playing a completely different meta and a sample team to get reqs, and then vote (and potentially be the single vote that changes the results!) completely against the community's best interest. And evidently by some of the people posting here, there's already people doing that, or at least trying.
You want to talk about bad faith? How about completely ignoring the argument I was making to whine about my "attitude"?
What's the other option? Let the community run the metagame into the ground until we have another Gen 5 OU on our hands? It's bad either way, and half the community right now would vote DNB against fucking Mega Rayquaza if they could, so who cares what they think? Might as well make the meta as best as they can if half the community's gonna act like petulant children whenever something broken enters the meta.
I'm being an ass? The guy I'm responding to is literally shitting on the past 10 years of OU and whining that OU isn't VGC on the fucking Smogon Forums. If I'm being an ass at all, I'm being far less of one than he is. And sure, there's no such thing as a wrong opinion, that isn't what I said. I said it was a bad opinion, one formed on a fundamentally bad conclusion.
See above.
Complex bans aren't really considered unless the situation really calls for them. Theyre really bad for accessibility and have a history of needing to be reviewed and reworked pretty often (or at least more often than a ban should have). This ban would be pretty messy vs the current options (ban bax, ban atales, ban light clay/veil), most of which can also solve the issue on themselves
even the complex bans that did get implemented were unnecessary. the baton pass nonsense was eventually just replaced by a ban on the move, the weather + speed ability bans could have easily been solved by just banning the speed abilities, and even the endless battle clause could have been simplified to a leppa berry ban
Just gonna point this out, I have no interest in whatever the fuck you guys on about, but this was semi mentioned in the whole "china vs NatDex reqs" thing, and the consensus is that
On rare occasions, a complex ban may be justified, but why on earth wouldn't you either ban Ninetails-A or Aurora Veil and be done with it? What is so important to preserve that a complex ban would accomplish?
How have you guys been using roaring moon rn, and what do you think of it? The addition of knock seems to breathe a little more life into it, and I know it's probably only gonna be consistent when the whole veils issue is solved, but even then I'm curious ykno
