Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[MattC (Banned)]

I feel like we should just stop talking about dropping random ass Ubers to OU for a bit. The Darkrai discussion has been legit brainrot.

And for those who want the other ban victims/Ubers dropped so badly, the floodgates will (temporarily) open when DLC2 comes along in 2 weeks anyways. This includes wonderful mons such as the funny death ape (Annihilape), the sun god matchup moth, Salamence’s illegitimate ancestor, Sneasler and Gliscor. It’s better to just discuss what’s actively going on in OU right now, such as Gholdengo/Manaphy/Waterpon/Kingambit or whatever other major annoyances are still here atm.

I will be bringing the Double Dance Gliscor set to the function though once DLC2 comes. You can’t stop me.

Nah lowkey this is actually making my braincells disintegrate. But I never got an answer to my question

Maaaan what the hell is the point of retesting Ubers for OU at this point? To give them an actual home in a metagame instead of languishing in UUbers [potential obscurity]? My EXTREMELY anti-pessimistic (this isn't proper English ik but my previous Darkrai post and many others are super contradictory) look on any pokemon blinds me from the truth. Half of me knows shit like Chi-Yu and Magearna have absolutely no right to ever be in OU, yet the other half says "Regieleki stonewalled by Iron Treads it's fine in OU". I don't know man I'm not the omega pro gamer like the lot of you, nor am I on the same mindset as you. Enlighten me

and Kenpwnchi also wonders the same thing as to why we need to unban previous Ubers. So I'll try and answer it myself:
Maybe people just want these mons to find a genuine home. Until the limbo of Ubers and OU is made (which already is... kinda), then we really can't validly use these pokemon. Darkrai is the big one mentioned right now as to an OU drop since SMEARGLE decided to ruin VGC 2016 and not only net it the ONLY move it can't actually use baring Z-Moves or Gigantamax signature moves, but it made Dark Void 50% ACCURATE and less reliable than Hypnosis. Even a Wide Lens boosted Hypnosis is only 66% accurate -- which is less than Focus Miss (Darkrai also gets that move, so maybe Wide Lens could work for those people that really hate missing). I mean, I might hate the design of Deoxys-Normal, but it doesn't deserve to be in Ubers obscurity either. Everything banned from OU was banned with a purpose. We don't need to postpone the inevitable fall from grace that is said Deoxys-Normal and never allow it in OU. Well, we could actually, but then it would just be a matter of "Why the HELL is this thing in Ubers it sucks LMAO".

But the other side of this coin is the metagame as a whole. Dropping 1 Uber is fine. But if we allow 6 Ubers to drop, that's a full teams worth of potentially metagame warping threats. How healthy are they for the metagame? They may not be healthy, but they might not be broken either. They could just be slightly problematic metagame forces. If was in the tier, Gholdengo suddenly becomes even better. It may seem odd since Gholdengo doesn't like Darkrai's presence, and yes Gholdengo doesn't like Darkrai either. But the same can be said against that claim. Adding Darkrai means that Gholdengo can be more annoying than ever as now you need an answer to Darkrai (naturally, Iron Valiant does pretty well into it all things considered -- you even have Vacuum Wave for scarf sets), and terastallization is also accounted for here. A Poison type Darkrai suddenly walls the STAB of Iron Valiant that ironically are BOTH super effective against Dark and wacks it with a Sludge Bomb, or worse, a Nasty Plot boost.

I do think that is pretty terrible, but things like Deoxys-Normal also don't deserve to NOT have a tier to play in. Why be banned from OU from the past and have that affect your outlook on Deoxys-Normal as of now? I still don't know, and it seems enlightenment won't exactly work. I tried to answer your question Mr. Kenpwnchi but truthfully, I'm not sure why we need to unban Ubers. But you can be assured all of this will happen in the 2nd DLC.

 

[Ctann]

I’m very curious if Annihilape can be OU material in a meta with a lot more hazards, lack of shed tail, and more speedy threats.

thoughts?

 

[bigasschungusboi]

Enough of this darkrai bullshit what niche mons are any of you using to check threats in the metagame I personally love using chesnaught to check ogerpon-w and cornerstone on top of checking gambit.

 

[YubelVT]

Enough of this darkrai bullshit what niche mons are any of you using to check threats in the metagame I personally love using chesnaught to check ogerpon-w and cornerstone on top of checking gambit.

Physically Defensive Sap Sipper H-Goodra sits on all of the currently legal Ogerpon forms if they don't run a fighting move. It's pretty funny

 

[YNM]

I’m very curious if Annihilape can be OU material in a meta with a lot more hazards, lack of shed tail, and more speedy threats.

thoughts?

Hell no. That thing only needed Rage Fist and Tera to be annoying as fuck, and as long as the latter stays allowed in OU there's no way Ape should get unbanned. Also, we'd end up with another Spin blocker. Keep its ass locked in prison.

 

[June Heat]

People be like “stop talking about Darkrai! stop talking about potential drops!” The heck you want us to talk about? Can’t talk about Gholdengo or Kingambit cause of DLC2, and even talking about the meta at large is kinda moot cause of DLC2.

So let people theorymon and have fun!

 

[FayaWizard]

I’m very curious if Annihilape can be OU material in a meta with a lot more hazards, lack of shed tail, and more speedy threats.

thoughts?

Nothing has changed in terms of what it got banned for last time: completely shutting down defensive teams with rage fist taunt.

 

[TCTphantom]

You very clearly did not play with sneasler while gliscor is in the tier. Under grassy terrain, sneasler can SD twice in the face of gliscor EQ. Abso fucking lutely not do not let this thing touch OU ever again

Ok here's my take on the tier list provided by MX42
View attachment 574893
Nothing in tier 5, but you could argue Gliscor should be there (anyone who puts sneasler anywhere other than tier 1 is genuinely deluded). For tier 4, Volc should be tested instead of just released, same with ape. Everything in tier 3 is borderline but that doesn't mean I want them tested, keep them out. In tier 2, these are the things that seem broken but are just not broken enough that I feel they could theoretically be allowed in the tier. Tier 1 is where most of this shit goes and where most of it should stay. Darkrai could probably go in tier 2 but regardless I stand by everything else. Not actually banned is self explanatory. Thank you for coming to my TED talk

Houndstone and Cyclizar represent their banned moves btw, felt that was obvious.


As for Sneasler, as much as Terrain helped Sneasler handle Gliscor, it did not like Gliscor balance holding it back. Gliscor Ghold balance played a decent part in keeping Sneasler in check. There’s a reason scores for Sneasler spiked after the ban. It was strong before, but the best core to handle it was dead.

 

[Wolf-X]

People be like “stop talking about Darkrai! stop talking about potential drops!” The heck you want us to talk about? Can’t talk about Gholdengo or Kingambit cause of DLC2, and even talking about the meta at large is kinda moot cause of DLC2.

So let people theorymon and have fun!

Pretty much 100% that, let us have fun, shit aint getting better.

Darkrai drop seems very reasonable imo, with all the powercreep Darkrai doesnt really seem that scary tbh, it could add some interesting meta shifts. Also while it can Tera to help (assuming you have the right tera), it doesnt seem like the best tera abuser out there. We certainly have had it way worse in OU. It certainly suffers from 4MS.

Annhilape also seems like it does have a lot more answers now. Zoroark-H, the encore prevalence negating BU sets and other stuff able to 1 shot it. Still Rage Fist is very tricky imo, so this could go either way too.

The Deoxys unban would depend on movepool really but it isnt that crazy either, although Gholdengo and the hazard game can complicate things.
But imo Deoxys if added is also worth looking into.

We have had way more broken shit for MONTHS in this tier (and still arguably have!), any other gen Gholdengo would have 100% been ubers, same with Gambit.

 

[Napoli Burns]

Anyone who voted DNB is pro gambit are you insane.

i thought u was talking about the surveys made for dlc 1 lmao, it happened in august it's time to move on i think

who voted dnb on gambit did it also thinking with the upcoming dlc and mostly, the comeback of scald things will be better (which in fact, did)

zama was kept out mostly for having a strong check/counter for gambit who has at the same time, insane stats for ou; we aren't talking about avest ttar but a pokemon with 700 bst and notably, 128 speed that would be very strong even without gambit around

another reason on why people voted dnb was for the desperate situation where pokemon like bax and pult where so hard to deal with; so voting dnb (in the august suspect) on gambit for most players did not mean be pro gambit, but be forced to have it as option for dealing with other threats who at the same time, never received a suspect at all

be pro-something is being like you doing 20+ more post/day complaining about everything, is totally different on voting or dnb or not on a suspect. your complaints about qualified playerbase be constantly wrong or whatever u wanted to say is laughable

 

[Eelstartega]

so, i'd like to ask this because it's thanksgiving: what about gen 9 ou are you most thankful for?

Honestly, the fact OU has been this incompetent due to split mentalities gave me the motivation to participate in the 2nd Tera discussion and Kingambit ban via creating this account, which made me participate in BH money tour, who picked my interest enough to made analysis for them which made me revitalize my passion for data analysis as well as to interact with community. Nothing would have happened if you were not so passive-agressive about Tera in the first suspect test.

 

[morangotango]

An interesting point in that discussion is that instead of looking for Ubers to drop y'all should look for low-tier mons that could be viable since 95% of the mons are allowed in OU

 

[Shinto7654]

We have had way more broken shit for MONTHS in this tier (and still arguably have!), any other gen Gholdengo would have 100% been ubers, same with Gambit.

This is demonstrably bullshit if you actually looked at a lot of older gens and the kind of shit that they let run around for a fucking long ass time in that specific gen's context. Like, you know fucking Gneensect in Gen 5 lasted over 3 months beofre finally getting banned? Or that deoxys Speed lasted oveer a whole fgucking year? Gen 6 Aegislash lasting over half a year before getting suspect tested and banned????

 

[morangotango]

This is demonstrably bullshit if you actually looked at a lot of older gens and the kind of shit that they let run around for a fucking long ass time in that specific gen's context

Im trying to realize current gen's crybabies asking for the council to ban gen 6 azumarill or linoone, or ban Belly Drum

 

[kosecant]

people that only joined this gen don’t realize how good they have it, old councils used to only ban the most heinous offenders from OU, we’ve been treated pretty well this gen lol

 

[Smashburn]

300 pages of trailblazing stupidity congratulations everybody let's shoot for 400, I can't wait to expose myself to the latest obvious unbalanced thing the playerbase is vying to test in OU. Miraidon next?

 

[Alternator]

An interesting point in that discussion is that instead of looking for Ubers to drop y'all should look for low-tier mons that could be viable since 95% of the mons are allowed in OU

STAB Technician Population Bomb is like STAB Explosion from the Days of Yore, a horrifyingly powerful move that threatens to delete anything that doesn't resist it.

 

[YubelVT]

Houndstone and Cyclizar represent their banned moves btw, felt that was obvious.


As for Sneasler, as much as Terrain helped Sneasler handle Gliscor, it did not like Gliscor balance holding it back. Gliscor Ghold balance played a decent part in keeping Sneasler in check. There’s a reason scores for Sneasler spiked after the ban. It was strong before, but the best core to handle it was dead.

ok but like, sneasler was very much a pick your own checks pokemon. an anti gholdengo move (night slash for crit shit, lash out for pure damage, shadow claw for specifically corv) was basically mandatory by the time sneasler was beaned. Like Tera Flying Acro Sneas completely fucks most of the Gliscor cores just because of the strength combined with the speed. Granted it was somewhat difficult to get into an auto win position like that, but it wasn't so uncommon as to be irrelevant.

300 pages of trailblazing stupidity congratulations everybody let's shoot for 400, I can't wait to expose myself to the latest obvious unbalanced thing the playerbase is vying to test in OU. Miraidon next?

I cannot wait for the 1100s to come clamoring in begging for Flutter Mane to be tested even though that things is uh, really fucking good in UBERS where it is currently tiered after being banned from OU for being too good. Yes I am basically an 1100 at this point but I at least know when shit like flutter mane should be banned

 

[tommytt22]

Enough of this darkrai bullshit what niche mons are any of you using to check threats in the metagame I personally love using chesnaught to check ogerpon-w and cornerstone on top of checking gambit.

i tried using eviolite dipplin and it 2hko me with play rough. physdef dragonite suffers the same fate. nothing makes me sweat like seeing waterpon in team preview

 

[YubelVT]

i tried using eviolite dipplin and it 2hko me with play rough. physdef dragonite suffers the same fate. nothing makes me sweat like seeing waterpon in team preview

Physically Defensive Sap Sipper H-Goodra my brother. It is the sauce. Sits on every single legal ogerpon form if they don't run a fighting move. Run curse or something idk

 

[pulsar512b]

This is demonstrably bullshit if you actually looked at a lot of older gens and the kind of shit that they let run around for a fucking long ass time in that specific gen's context. Like, you know fucking Gneensect in Gen 5 lasted over 3 months beofre finally getting banned? Or that deoxys Speed lasted oveer a whole fgucking year? Gen 6 Aegislash lasting over half a year before getting suspect tested and banned????

even in gen 8 stuff like kyurem and cinderace and magearna that were reasonably clearly broken ran around for a long time

 

[Ctann]

i tried using eviolite dipplin and it 2hko me with play rough. physdef dragonite suffers the same fate. nothing makes me sweat like seeing waterpon in team preview

dude in the current OU meta waterpon doesn’t threaten as heavily as so many other things. Check it offensively and with hazards, its trailblaze set needs a lot of things to line up to work. Stop trying to find slower switch ins unless they clap back hard.

 

[bdt2002]

Holy crap, this took a long time to make. Here's a list of every single possibly problematic Pokémon in all of Generation 9 that I could think of. EVery single quickban, suspect test, survey radar, everything should be on here somewhere. As an added bonus, I've also included some of my own choices I've had my eye on for varying amounts of time. I'm not very caught up on the ongoing Teal Mask metagame or the upcoming shift into The Indigo Disk next month, so feel free to disagree with me. In fact, I'm willing to welcome the idea that you could teach me things about this generation that I didn't know before. And now, some brief notes about specific Pokémon:

• Stop trying to convince me that a base 135 Sp. Atk, base 125 Speed Dark-Type sweeper with access to Hypnosis, multiple ways of boosting (namely Nasty Plot or Choice items), and the ability to pick and choose its checks and counters is going to be balanced in DLC2, especially prior to any changes to Terastalizing. Because it won't be. Fast yet inaccurate sleep is a triple whammy of uncompetitiveness, and the ability to partner with other potentially dangerous threats would only make the Hyper Offense Vs. Big Stall dynamic even more polarizing.

• Alolan Ninetales caught the attention of many Gen 9 fans thanks to the introduction of Snow replacing Hail. While I do think New Toy Syndrome has fallen off a bit for this Pokémon to where I would rank it lower, and with its partner-in-crime Baxcalibur having been banned, I did still think it deserved to be here due to the reliability it brings in supporting dangerous offensive sweepers and other Ice-Types as a whole. Its own lack of consistent offensive firepower and over-reliance on one move (Aurora Veil) holds it back from being significant enough to warrant further discussion.

• We already know that all of the older starter Pokémon are going to be returning in DLC2, and let me make something clear. This metagame is not ready for Serperior. Many of the Pokémon you would expect to check it have been banned previously. Sticky Web makes it faster instead of slower. Contrary makes life even harder for Defoggers than was already the case. Your choice of Tera Fire, Tera Rock, or possibly Tera Ground allows you to pick and choose your checks and counters. And on top of all of that, it still learns Substitue, it still learns Leech Seed, it still learns Giga Drain, it still learns Glare, and it can set up Screens. The only things holding Serperior back from complete and total annihilation are Leaf Storm's 90% accuracy and inability to have multiple Tera Types- oh wait, never mind, the 19th Tera Type is going to exist too, I forgot. Even if Terastalizing gets nerfed in some capacity, the aforementioned issues still persist, but losing Terastalizing would be a large enough blow to Serperior's viability that I don't think I can rank it any higher, and 3 out of 5 is already pushing it.

 

[tommytt22]

dude in the current OU meta waterpon doesn’t threaten as heavily as so many other things. Check it offensively and with hazards, its trailblaze set needs a lot of things to line up to work. Stop trying to find slower switch ins unless they clap back hard.

i have a decent win rate against it. and its not what i consider the most broken in the metagame. but it makes me the most sweaty when i see it. maybe i should see a doctor

 

[Carl The Turtle]

An interesting point in that discussion is that instead of looking for Ubers to drop y'all should look for low-tier mons that could be viable since 95% of the mons are allowed in OU

every month someone tries to reinvent morkal
jokes aside i've tried building teams around Noivern. In theory, boomburst/flamethrower/hurricane/draco gives you strong coverage and decent ohko potential for nearly the entire metagame with a solid speed tier, but it often ends up becoming bargain bin pult in practice, maybe there's a niche for it somewhere though.