Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

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The problem with a hypothetical OUBL is that if it is ever created, we will again find ourselves with Pokémon too strong for the tier, therefore sent back in Uber in order to make the OUBL playable, but also others which will never be play because outclassed.

For example: what do we do with the many forms of Arceus not played in Uber? A large part of them will join the Uber again where no one will cheat them.
Do you think Dialga-O would have a chance in OUBL while Base Dialga will also be there?
 
OUBL would probably be viable in Natdex nowadays, as there are enough Ubers pushed into C/D rank that it could reasonably be a separate tier (base Kyogre, base Groudon, Mewtwo, Palkia, Lugia for example), but in regular OU it would just be an obnoxious format akin to the first day of a new metagame where all the broken things are available. There's offensive counterplay in the form of other brokens, but generally a lot less defensive counterplay than in regular Ubers. Plus it kind of kills the point of Ubers as a banlist tier, even if AG does exist now
 
View attachment 554519
Poliwrath @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Swift Swim
Tera Type: Steel/Fighting/Ground
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Liquidation
- Knock Off/Earthquake
- Belly Drum


Poliwrath's a pretty cool mon on rain teams. Probably not very good, but nonetheless still cool.

I used this Poliwrath a bit and it’s very promising. Being that it beats Gambit, Tusk, Greninja, and Gliscor means it is at least serviceable in OU. Of note it’s not worth actually clicking Belly Drum at all if your opponent has a Gambit. So in 50% of games it’s kind of just a coverage sweeper. For item, Heavy Duty Boots on everything that can afford it. Also, Drain Punch > Close Combat. It still gets the KOs and gives you some sustain. Poliwrath actually has ok bulk. Earthquake > Knock Off, it kills Pex but also 2HKOs Water Absorb Clodsire on the switch even without a Belly Drum. This is a cool set overall that is worth pulling out on a rain squad just to have some fun.

General comment, I use Heavy Duty Boots on damn near everything these days. It has replaced Leftovers as the default item basically…
 
With the ban of Hearthflame Ogre, I want to give my absolute appreciation for Wellspring Ogre. Its incredible offensively but defensively its a life saver, and solidifies it as one of the top dogs of the tier.


Ogerpon-Wellspring (F) @ Wellspring Mask
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 208 SpD / 48 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ivy Cudgel
- Encore/Knock Off/Horn Leech/Taunt
- Synthesis
- Spikes/Knock Off/U-Turn/Taunt

(48 Evs with a Jolly Nature outspeeds Timid Ghold.)

The biggest appeal of Wellspring Pon is its gigantic support movepool. Encore, Knock Off, Taunt, Spikes, U-Turn, Leech Seed, it never ends. The most notable two being Spikes and Encore. We all know Spikes are broken but Encore is one of the best moves in the metagame, and having a mon as fast as Ogerpon make use of it is a big deal.

Its typing and its Tera from granting Oger a permanent SpD boost lets it check a plethora of offensive powerhouses like Manaphy, Specs Dragapult, Greninja, Volcanion, Ghold, etc. Even without investment, its main STAB move is trucking shit. Encore also makes it one of the more consistent Bloodmoon Luna checks due to being able to live a boosted Blood Moon and Encore if it tries to click CM or EP. Taunt can be used to deny hazards from Gliscor or Wish from Mola. U-Turn lets it be a solid pivot and bait out switch ins from stuff like Pex or Clod. Another cool niche with Wellspring Oger is that it blocks Trick from Scarf Ghold or Valiant. I might make a viability tier list in the future, but just know that Waterpon is not only one of the best offensive mons, but also one of the best defensive mons in the tier.

Some extra notes I want to point out.

Valiant is much more balanced in this metagame with the prospect of checks like Gliscor, Mola, Torn-T, Clef, Feze, etc, as well as previous checks such as Colbur Glowking and the birds.

It is entirely possible for Gambit to be balanced this time around as crazy as this sounds. We have an amazing slow pivot in Mola who can easily eat a +2 hit and Flip Turn into something that can threaten it, even with rocks up. Or it can Scald burn it.

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 390-459 (73 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Also more Encore in the tier with mons like Oger and Alolatales. Gliscor eats a +2 Supreme Overlord Adamant Kowtow Cleave at full and 2HKOs with EQ or forces a Tera, which in this case Gliscor can Toxic it if Gambit isn’t Lum. Though if Gambit turns out to still be broken in a few weeks, I’ll eat my words.

Kinda wish we had more defoggers. We only got two niche hazard removal in Polt Bramble and G-Weez, though its nice to know they beat Ghold (G-Weez Neutralizing Gas can bypass Good As Gold). Though it is niche to have two Knock sponges in Gliscor and Clef to help with Boots spam since one of the biggest flaws of Boots spam is it falls apart to Knock Off. I did find one Defogger that could beat Ghold while being able to do other shit.

Scizor @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 60 Atk / 196 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Defog

60 Atk Adamant to one-shot offensive Ghold with Tera Dark Knock and enough SpD to avoid a 2HKO from 252 Timid Sball.

252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 196 SpD Scizor: 129-153 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

60+ Atk Tera Dark Scizor Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 318-374 (100.9 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

And if it decides to Tera you Bullet Punch it repeatedly.

Thats about it. Have fun.
 
With the ban of Hearthflame Ogre, I want to give my absolute appreciation for Wellspring Ogre. Its incredible offensively but defensively its a life saver, and solidifies it as one of the top dogs of the tier.


Ogerpon-Wellspring (F) @ Wellspring Mask
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 208 SpD / 48 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ivy Cudgel
- Encore/Knock Off/Horn Leech/Taunt
- Synthesis
- Spikes/Knock Off/U-Turn/Taunt

(48 Evs with a Jolly Nature outspeeds Timid Ghold.)

The biggest appeal of Wellspring Pon is its gigantic support movepool. Encore, Knock Off, Taunt, Spikes, U-Turn, Leech Seed, it never ends. The most notable two being Spikes and Encore. We all know Spikes are broken but Encore is one of the best moves in the metagame, and having a mon as fast as Ogerpon make use of it is a big deal.

Its typing and its Tera from granting Oger a permanent SpD boost lets it check a plethora of offensive powerhouses like Manaphy, Specs Dragapult, Greninja, Volcanion, Ghold, etc. Even without investment, its main STAB move is trucking shit. Encore also makes it one of the more consistent Bloodmoon Luna checks due to being able to live a boosted Blood Moon and Encore if it tries to click CM or EP. Taunt can be used to deny hazards from Gliscor or Wish from Mola. U-Turn lets it be a solid pivot and bait out switch ins from stuff like Pex or Clod. Another cool niche with Wellspring Oger is that it blocks Trick from Scarf Ghold or Valiant. I might make a viability tier list in the future, but just know that Waterpon is not only one of the best offensive mons, but also one of the best defensive mons in the tier.

Some extra notes I want to point out.

Valiant is much more balanced in this metagame with the prospect of checks like Gliscor, Mola, Torn-T, Clef, Feze, etc, as well as previous checks such as Colbur Glowking and the birds.

It is entirely possible for Gambit to be balanced this time around as crazy as this sounds. We have an amazing slow pivot in Mola who can easily eat a +2 hit and Flip Turn into something that can threaten it, even with rocks up. Or it can Scald burn it.

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 390-459 (73 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Also more Encore in the tier with mons like Oger and Alolatales. Gliscor eats a +2 Supreme Overlord Adamant Kowtow Cleave at full and 2HKOs with EQ or forces a Tera, which in this case Gliscor can Toxic it if Gambit isn’t Lum. Though if Gambit turns out to still be broken in a few weeks, I’ll eat my words.

Kinda wish we had more defoggers. We only got two niche hazard removal in Polt Bramble and G-Weez, though its nice to know they beat Ghold (G-Weez Neutralizing Gas can bypass Good As Gold). Though it is niche to have two Knock sponges in Gliscor and Clef to help with Boots spam since one of the biggest flaws of Boots spam is it falls apart to Knock Off. I did find one Defogger that could beat Ghold while being able to do other shit.

Scizor @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 60 Atk / 196 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Defog

60 Atk Adamant to one-shot offensive Ghold with Tera Dark Knock and enough SpD to avoid a 2HKO from 252 Timid Sball.

252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 196 SpD Scizor: 129-153 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

60+ Atk Tera Dark Scizor Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 318-374 (100.9 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

And if it decides to Tera you Bullet Punch it repeatedly.

Thats about it. Have fun.

I’ve been using Ogerpon-Wellspring :Ogerpon-Wellspring: with Leech Seed. I dont have any more calcs except the ones below, but the bit of healing is nice and it helps you against unaware pokemon.

252+ Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 178-211 (45.1 - 53.5%) -- 39.5% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 178-211 (45.1 - 53.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leech Seed damage
 
With the ban of Hearthflame Ogre, I want to give my absolute appreciation for Wellspring Ogre. Its incredible offensively but defensively its a life saver, and solidifies it as one of the top dogs of the tier.


Ogerpon-Wellspring (F) @ Wellspring Mask
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 208 SpD / 48 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ivy Cudgel
- Encore/Knock Off/Horn Leech/Taunt
- Synthesis
- Spikes/Knock Off/U-Turn/Taunt

(48 Evs with a Jolly Nature outspeeds Timid Ghold.)

The biggest appeal of Wellspring Pon is its gigantic support movepool. Encore, Knock Off, Taunt, Spikes, U-Turn, Leech Seed, it never ends. The most notable two being Spikes and Encore. We all know Spikes are broken but Encore is one of the best moves in the metagame, and having a mon as fast as Ogerpon make use of it is a big deal.

Its typing and its Tera from granting Oger a permanent SpD boost lets it check a plethora of offensive powerhouses like Manaphy, Specs Dragapult, Greninja, Volcanion, Ghold, etc. Even without investment, its main STAB move is trucking shit. Encore also makes it one of the more consistent Bloodmoon Luna checks due to being able to live a boosted Blood Moon and Encore if it tries to click CM or EP. Taunt can be used to deny hazards from Gliscor or Wish from Mola. U-Turn lets it be a solid pivot and bait out switch ins from stuff like Pex or Clod. Another cool niche with Wellspring Oger is that it blocks Trick from Scarf Ghold or Valiant. I might make a viability tier list in the future, but just know that Waterpon is not only one of the best offensive mons, but also one of the best defensive mons in the tier.
yeah, i feel like waterpon might be this gen's lando-t. not in terms of the actual role, but in terms of being versatile enough to slot onto virtually any team, offensive, defensive, or anywhere in between. i still don't think she's broken, just really, really good
 
what do you think about ogrepon cornerstone?

Now that hearthflame is in ubers it looks to me as that cornerstone is the new best ogerpon form.

it is nice having the single best rock type move ever created.
stomping tantrum isn't that bad coverage at hiting steel types.

people don't want it to be banned too, right?
(I don't plan on opposing the ban, I will just be dissapointed if this happens).
 
what do you think about ogrepon cornerstone?

Now that hearthflame is in ubers it looks to me as that cornerstone is the new best ogerpon form.

it is nice having the single best rock type move ever created.
stomping tantrum isn't that bad coverage at hiting steel types.

people don't want it to be banned too, right?
(I don't plan on opposing the ban, I will just be dissapointed if this happens).


Right now, people seem to prefer Ogrepon-Wellspring as the form of choice, Grass/Water tends to have similar levels of offensive coverage, only really getting blanked by dragons. Water Absorb tends to be a lot more useful than Sturdy as well when it comes to an ability.

I personally like Cornerstone a good amount, however it definitely feels more geared towards setup sweeping than Wellspring, who can pull off some Encore sets. Cornerstone is kind of forced to have some way of dealing with steels (mainly kingambit), I personally run Low Kick, but Superpower works as well on SD sets (the def drop is counteracted by Tera).
 
1695496906514.png

>Considered a 'Low Viability' mon alongside stuff like Blissey, Iron Treads and Torterra
Sad
Anytime now, they'll get to know its true capabilities
 
what do you think about ogrepon cornerstone?

Now that hearthflame is in ubers it looks to me as that cornerstone is the new best ogerpon form.

it is nice having the single best rock type move ever created.
stomping tantrum isn't that bad coverage at hiting steel types.

people don't want it to be banned too, right?
(I don't plan on opposing the ban, I will just be dissapointed if this happens).
Wellspring can generally set up easier(grass water is a better defensive type and water absorb is great for easily sitting on manaphy), and water grass duo stab can cover almost everything besides dragons anyways, which can easily be dealt. Furthermore, it can slot fine as both a rain check and a rain abuser itself, while Cornerstone can't really boast the same as sand isn't viable.
 
Popular Gliscor sets? Seeing people put 4's on the tiering survey on this thing because me very interested in trying it out now. Seems like the new tools were worth the loss of roost
 
Popular Gliscor sets? Seeing people put 4's on the tiering survey on this thing because me very interested in trying it out now. Seems like the new tools were worth the loss of roost
Usually a mix of protect + spikes + knock + eq + toxic + rocks, you can mix in a sd facade set as well, taunt to break stall, you've really got a lot of options
 
mfer thinks it's on the teamView attachment 554627

Thats a weird way of spelling Manaphy.

Explanation: The presence of Wellspring Oger and other fast offensive threats like Dragapult make it easier to check Manaphy, not to mention it’s apparent 4MSS. It wants Eball for Dozo, it wants Psychic for Pex, it wants Take Heart or Rest to heal of Toxic, it wants Dgleam or Ice Beam for dragons. It’s obviously a great mon but one that was overblown in the first week of DLC1.
 
Thats a weird way of spelling Manaphy.

Explanation: The presence of Wellspring Oger and other fast offensive threats like Dragapult make it easier to check Manaphy, not to mention it’s apparent 4MSS. It wants Eball for Dozo, it wants Psychic for Pex, it wants Take Heart or Rest to heal of Toxic, it wants Dgleam or Ice Beam for dragons. It’s obviously a great mon but one that was overblown in the first week of DLC1.
i dont think manaphy deserves that high either necessarily but like atales is literally just going to be a cheese style of HO and literally the day after bax ban like 70% of atales disappeared over night

people will spam atales HO on the ladder bc its the first week but like atales is definitely gonna fall off

in swsh it had both actual hail mons and HO teams so it fit on two types of teams really, without Bax it's really just one type of team that is inconsistent against things like Cinderace
 
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