Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[KamenOH]

I disagree, I just think it’s a gigantic waste of time to run a test on yet another clearly unhealthy probably broken nuke when the actual “problem” with the entire hazard fiesta meta that is Gen 9 goes unexamined. Waiting until the end like Mega Sableye (which happened after Gen 6 ended) is the worst possible outcome. There’s going to be even more broken junk released in DLC2; imo the more relevant question is what does the playerbase want Gen 9 to be?

Personally I just want the bans to end. Im used to there being very few bans, and the metas were all the better for it.

Modern smogon would've cried over and banned ADV Tyranitar or GSC Snorlax, despite the numerous benefits they had in their OU. I'll admit, I was like this with Landorus-Therian, but i've moved on and can accept the good it brings to the tiers its in, like SV UU. Let us keep the banlist to the cover legends (who're almost AG this gen) and the shit that can 4+-0 a game from the getgo like fucking bundle or palafin.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

I disagree, I just think it’s a gigantic waste of time to run a test on yet another clearly unhealthy probably broken nuke when the actual “problem” with the entire hazard fiesta meta that is Gen 9 goes unexamined. Waiting until the end like Mega Sableye (which happened after Gen 6 ended) is the worst possible outcome. There’s going to be even more broken junk released in DLC2; imo the more relevant question is what does the playerbase want Gen 9 to be?

it doesn't matter what the playerbase wants gen 9 to be, it'll always be the hazards gen, like how gen 5 will always be the weather gen. a gholdengo ban adds exactly three new consistent hazard-removal options, which people are already running anyway. not much changes from that. so then what? what do we ban after that to make this meta less full of spikes? sure, we could ban some of the setters, but there are so many mons with access to it that hazard stack teams can just slot in a new setter every time. maybe the hazard itself? sure, that would kill the entire hazard-stack playstyle, but it's just too extreme of an option. there is no actual solution to this problem within the confines of current tiering policy, especially when so many people don't think a problem exists at all

Personally I just want the bans to end. Im used to there being very few bans, and the metas were all the better for it.
View attachment 555871
Modern smogon would've cried over and banned ADV Tyranitar or GSC Snorlax, despite the numerous benefits they had in their OU. I'll admit, I was like this with Landorus-Therian, but i've moved on and can accept the good it brings to the tiers its in, like SV UU. Let us keep the banlist to the cover legends (who're almost AG this gen) and the shit that can 4+-0 a game from the getgo like fucking bundle or palafin.

let me try to find something positive to say about this take

…

uh

good job spelling most of the words right

 

[RaikouLover]

Tera is just one big shitshow. Encore is the only check to set-up sweepers. You can bet on them resisting whatever you try to hit them with.

 

[YubelVT]

Personally I just want the bans to end. Im used to there being very few bans, and the metas were all the better for it.
View attachment 555871
Modern smogon would've cried over and banned ADV Tyranitar or GSC Snorlax, despite the numerous benefits they had in their OU. I'll admit, I was like this with Landorus-Therian, but i've moved on and can accept the good it brings to the tiers its in, like SV UU. Let us keep the banlist to the cover legends (who're almost AG this gen) and the shit that can 4+-0 a game from the getgo like fucking bundle or palafin.

can we ban kingambit tho like it's actually fucking ridiculous


also also, and I'm going to keep saying this, BROKEN CHECKS BROKEN HAS ONLY EVER WORKED IN GEN 7 OU (which is a BANGER format you all are just BABIES) AND EVEN THEN, THERE ARE STILL THINGS IN GEN 7 THAT PROBABLY SHOULD HAVE BEEN BANNED BUT ARE JUST FRAIL ENOUGH TO STAY IN THE TIER

 

[Troubadour1]

SV OU tiering radar: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/on-the-radar.3711025/#post-9799354

Furret dodges a bullet once again. When will something be done about this mon?

 

[RaikouLover]

can we ban kingambit tho like it's actually fucking ridiculous

Which one? Fairygambit, Flyingambit, Darth Gambit, or Firegambit?

 

[pika pal]

it doesn't matter what the playerbase wants gen 9 to be, it'll always be the hazards gen, like how gen 5 will always be the weather gen. a gholdengo ban adds exactly three new consistent hazard-removal options, which people are already running anyway. not much changes from that. so then what? what do we ban after that to make this meta less full of spikes? sure, we could ban some of the setters, but there are so many mons with access to it that hazard stack teams can just slot in a new setter every time. maybe the hazard itself? sure, that would kill the entire hazard-stack playstyle, but it's just too extreme of an option. there is no actual solution to this problem within the confines of current tiering policy, especially when so many people don't think a problem exists at all

I agree the Hazard issue is a long term problem or simply something we're gonna have to deal with for Gen 9, but I want to repeatedly remind people not to downplay even a few viable hazard setters being freed up/improved/made more consistent by a hypothetical change like Gholdengo suspect/decline in usage. It's especially notable for stuff like Corviknight and Mandibuzz because, compared to Cinderace and Great Tusk, they really struggle to make progress on the opponent (be it passive damage or setting the stage for teammates) as long as Gholdengo blocks their hazards, where the offensive removers can both deal with Gholdengo and likely put significant work in attacking things even if they never Spin/Change.

The word I want to emphasize in your description is not "exactly" or "three" so much as consistent, because given how much turn-to-turn matters in an offense-laden Hazard Meta, being able to do the job more reliably per turn or per game is a massive point of note for defensive/utility Pokemon (Conversely Gliscor rising to the top of Hazard setting because it consistently beats the removers rather than having to watch/play chicken with them like Gholdengo or Samurott vs Offensive Tusk). The appeal to quantity isn't as meaningful, and if anything is a point in favor of improving existing removers because 1 more good Remover swings the ratio a lot more than 1 more good Setter/Blocker.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Furret dodges a bullet once again. When will something be done about this mon?

just because furret is used on like 80% of teams and ranked s+ on the vr doesn't make it op, it's a great glue mon that holds the rest of the tier together

 

[YubelVT]

honestly the hazard problem would probably be solved if game freak weren't cowards and re-tm'd defog. offensive defog zapdos would solve so many of my problems with the format

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

honestly the hazard problem would probably be solved if game freak weren't cowards and re-tm'd defog. offensive defog zapdos would solve so many of my problems with the format

well, then they'd also have to make wind rider block defog to keep shiftry in its role as designated zapdos counter

but seriously, yeah, defog as a tm would solve the problem so fast your head would spin (unless you're great tusk and it does that already). expanding the defogger pool to include zapdos, moltres, rotom-w and -h, torn-t, lando-t, gliscor, empoleon and pelipper would improve the meta by leaps and bounds by both solving the hazard problem and any lingering thoughts people have about veils or screens, not to mention the possibility of new mons also getting defog—a couple of the paradox mons might get it because their counterparts used to, and enamorus would likely get it alongside the other genies

 

[SDK03]

I know this has already been said, but half of the meta’s problems come from Tera. Just casually completely flipping over matchups on a dime by changing your typing, keeping your old STAB and even gaining a new 80BP STAB move if you feel like running it is just a broken mechanic to keep around if you want any semblance of a balanced meta. Hell, half the reason why Kingambit is so ridiculous is because it can easily gimp every Fighting type trying to check it by turning into a Fairy and spamming new Fairy STAB alongside STAB Sucker Punch.

I know, second gen in a row the generational gimmick was banned, but it’s not our fault Game Freak keeps introducing degen mechanics that even VGC players get sick of dealing with.

 

[Mediocre Ladder Player]

I feel like Half might be overstating it, but only because this gen has/had a TON of problems in regards to pokemon and moves that are mostly not overpowered in a 4v4 doubles format but are extremely freaking problematic in a 6v6 singles one. Tera has even exacerbated some of those problems, but either way pokemon like Palafin or moves like Last Respects are much, much less unreasonable in the only thing Gamefreak cares about balancing.

 

[Carl The Turtle]

Personally I just want the bans to end. Im used to there being very few bans, and the metas were all the better for it.
View attachment 555871
Modern smogon would've cried over and banned ADV Tyranitar or GSC Snorlax, despite the numerous benefits they had in their OU. I'll admit, I was like this with Landorus-Therian, but i've moved on and can accept the good it brings to the tiers its in, like SV UU. Let us keep the banlist to the cover legends (who're almost AG this gen) and the shit that can 4+-0 a game from the getgo like fucking bundle or palafin.

bait used to be believable

To not make this a one-liner and to say “to not make this a one-liner” since I find the aversion to it pretty humourous in general, how do people feel about Moth in DLC1? While the prevalence of new waters and Gliscor aren’t the best for it, the downtick in Glowking and meta trends seem to benefit it a lot as well.

 

[Magcargo]

Spikes are probably the number 1 problem in the metagame to me (maybe right next to blood moon Ursaluna), and while a Tera / Gholdengo ban would marginally help with them, I personally think it would be better to tackle the issue at its root and look into taking some action against the move, whether it be the multiple setters or just outright banning the move. Knock distribution being at an all time high makes it easier than ever to fuck over mons like Dondozo which get absolutely bodied by Spikes. Granted, top tiers like Tusk and Gambit don't like Spikes either, but the net loss is higher against defensive Pokemon. I'd argue Spikes probably fucks up most team structures more than anything else in the meta.

I've ran teams with double hazard removal cores (like Corv + Tusk) and that shit still isn't enough vs non Gholdengo teams. Maybe if Defog gets higher distribution, Gholdengo can be looked at, but the removal options being complete shit atm doesn't have me convinced that Spikes won't be an issue even in a non-Gholdengo meta.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Spikes are probably the number 1 problem in the metagame to me (maybe right next to blood moon Ursaluna), and while a Tera / Gholdengo ban would marginally help with them, I personally think it would be better to tackle the issue at its root and look into taking some action against the move, whether it be the multiple setters or just outright banning the move. Knock distribution being at an all time high makes it easier than ever to fuck over mons like Dondozo which get absolutely bodied by Spikes. Granted, top tiers like Tusk and Gambit don't like Spikes either, but the net loss is higher against defensive Pokemon. I'd argue Spikes probably fucks up most team structures more than anything else in the meta.

I've ran teams with double hazard removal cores (like Corv + Tusk) and that shit still isn't enough vs non Gholdengo teams. Maybe if Defog gets higher distribution, Gholdengo can be looked at, but the removal options being complete shit atm doesn't have me convinced that Spikes won't be an issue even in a non-Gholdengo meta.

we should hold a couple tours without spikes at some point. i have a gut feeling the meta in its current state would be healthier without them, but i don't think that a suspect test against them would ever gain traction without a glimpse into the alternate universe where they don't exist

 

[MattC (Banned)]

just because furret is used on like 80% of teams and ranked s+ on the vr doesn't make it op, it's a great glue mon that holds the rest of the tier together

Ever since it got Tidy Up and Mold Breaker (as well as a much needed stat buff) it can effectively not only sweep teams, but provide crucial team support. Woe is the player base for the crimes of the furret

 

[Jhang]

This isn't meant to be an actual ogerpon set, but I chose 4 good moves. Meanwhile it's a 4hko at best (without an SD) against amoonguss while the shroom 2hkos back.

0 SpA Amoonguss Sludge Bomb vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera: 58-70 (19.2 - 23.2%) -- possible 5HKO

I wouldn't call it a win-lose scenario at that point. Just pray it's not a +2 Zen Headbutt inbound

sure, but without the tera it's a 2hko, and with the tera waterpon loses her spore immunity. you just have to play it right

Thank you all for your takes on it. I feel a little more comfortable with Waterpon sticking around now. Yeah Zen Headbutt rips Amoonguss apart at +2, but it's sounding more and more like 4MSS on the sweeping set.

Of course then you get screens up and none of this matters but at least it's manageable on paper.

 

[658Greninja]

While we are on the topic of hazards/hazard removal, has anyone thought about using Quaquaval as a spinner?

Thanks to the addition of Knock Off, it 2HKOs Ghold with Knock + Aqua Step/Wave Crash, and it outspeeds by one point. Lives a Sball. Has reliable recovery via Roost. Its typing gives it a good matchup against most of the hazard setters such as Gliscor, Samu, Ting-Lu, etc.

Just something to consider.

 

[bigasschungusboi]

Been using spinning duck for a while now mfer is goated just make sure to pair his ass with a good spdef mon like glowing and bird type like torn

 

[yomaalt]

Personally I just want the bans to end. Im used to there being very few bans, and the metas were all the better for it.
View attachment 555871
Modern smogon would've cried over and banned ADV Tyranitar or GSC Snorlax, despite the numerous benefits they had in their OU. I'll admit, I was like this with Landorus-Therian, but i've moved on and can accept the good it brings to the tiers its in, like SV UU. Let us keep the banlist to the cover legends (who're almost AG this gen) and the shit that can 4+-0 a game from the getgo like fucking bundle or palafin.

I'm gon be honest like half of the OUBL mons don't particularly bring in anything that another mon can't cover. Best bet is volcarona and if you want a flame body fisher go with the one who's already far bulkier while not fucking killing 3 mons thanks to quiver dance + tera off a 135. Like I don't think most of them do anything else from checking opposing OUBL mons (Rshifu, mage and zam-C check pao, but those mons are broken in their own merits.) Banning the mons who force the meta to bend over to deal with them helps, as that allows more moveset freedom and team creativity. I'm like 70% sure having to run a flash fire + a extremely sturdy dark resist just so that you don't get folded by chi-yu, or a tera dark unaware clodsire so that espathra doesn't maul you doesn't help. And before you say smth like "Oh that's tera's fault" or "Those mons I already addressed and counted them they don't count", Annihilape 6-0's balance on preview lmfao, as all the mf needs is one hit to turn rage fist into a 100 BP 100% acc ghost stab move which at like +2/3 is gonna maul your entire team. Volcarona fucking wins against whole teams solely off the basis of whether you built for grassrona, groundrona or waterona. Darkrai doesn't DO anything else from outspeed shit and land hypnosis to win, same with eleki. Watershifu.... I dunno what does bro do to help??? Regardless, I've no clue what the council is planning for tera, but if they were planning something It'd probably be for DLC2.

TL:DR: The OUBLs don't bring anything useful while simply warping the meta. I unno what the council wants to do to tera.

To not make this a one-liner and to say “to not make this a one-liner” since I find the aversion to it pretty humourous in general, how do people feel about Moth in DLC1? While the prevalence of new waters and Gliscor aren’t the best for it, the downtick in Glowking and meta trends seem to benefit it a lot as well.

Moth goes crazy dawg i ain't gon lie. Getting +2 from fiery dance with booster special basically feels like you've awakened a final boss, cause that fellow is going to delete your entire team in like 3 moves. I haven't used much booster speed (I don't like how it fumbles certain KO's), but it can be annoying to face from time to time.
From my moth experience, booster speed moth vs booster special moth is basically:

"I am in tune with my own energy. I will outspeed critical +1 threats, and revenge them. My sole downfall is that I can sometimes miss out on critical kills, but such can be mended."
vs
Fuck it we ball.
Fuck it we ball.
Fuck it we ball.
Fuck it we ball.

 

[Turtleye_]

While we are on the topic of hazards/hazard removal, has anyone thought about using Quaquaval as a spinner?

Thanks to the addition of Knock Off, it 2HKOs Ghold with Knock + Aqua Step/Wave Crash, and it outspeeds by one point. Lives a Sball. Has reliable recovery via Roost. Its typing gives it a good matchup against most of the hazard setters such as Gliscor, Samu, Ting-Lu, etc.

Just something to consider.

I was legit about to post the same thing wth

After trying quaq out, its nice but also feels like he falls j u s t short of being good enough. Knock definitely helps in the Ghold matchup, and it deals with common setters like Tusk, HSamu and Ting Lu pretty well, as you mentioned

However I find it hard to switch in. Quaq's type is good in the current meta, but uninvested its bulk is not very great, but if you invest in bulk you don't hit hard enough or outspeed... at least from my experience. Maybe im just having a massive skill issue. Most of the time I find myself trading Quaq for the hazard setter which is fine.

Also in this role imo its not a great answer to Gambit despite its typing, since you want Spin / Knock / Aqua Step / Roost. I'm considering dropping Roost and just going encore or a fighting move instead

 

[Soiramio3000]

I wonder what would happen to the metagame if gholdengo got the banhammer.

that would have huge changes.
steel types may end up seeing more usage in order to block mortal spin.
I am not sure which ghost types would make the best spin blockers, almost all of them are afraid of great task's knock off.

empoleon and zapdos-galar may end up seeing more play as punishment to defog users, even though I am not sure if they will manage to stay in OU for long.
they both have problems.


I highly doubt if such ban is going to be one-sided. it will probably be a mixed bug of pros and cons.

 

[serif_Aizawa]

What did Gliscor do to warrant being on the radar list? Isn't it infinitely easier to deal with now that it doesn't have Roost?

 

[yomaalt]

I wonder what would happen to the metagame if gholdengo got the banhammer.

that would have huge changes.
steel types may end up seeing more usage in order to block mortal spin.
I am not sure which ghost types would make the best spin blockers, almost all of them are afraid of great task's knock off.

empoleon and zapdos-galar may end up seeing more play as punishment to defog users, even though I am not sure if they will manage to stay in OU for long.
they both have problems.


I highly doubt if such ban is going to be one-sided. it will probably be a mixed bug of pros and cons.

Grasspon stocks going up??? wait nvm corv still walls it :(

Regardless, i feel all that'd change would be like, the setters just slot in taunt and corv still gets fucked. Mortal spin is cool, until rocky helm/rough skin chip + eq. Defiant gambit is still fake, sneasler gets EXPONENTIALLY more annoying, lilligant hisui can do stuff now yippieee!!!1 Valiant gets a bit more annoying, enamorus gets quite a while more annoying, gking isn't walled by dengo anymore, zamazenta gets annoying, clefable says yippee, tusk out here thanking the heavens for the miracle of no longer dying to MiR and etc.....

Huh, I only just realized dengo does do quite a bit else from make corv want to die. Kinda cool

 

[Napoli Burns]

Personally I just want the bans to end. Im used to there being very few bans, and the metas were all the better for it.
View attachment 555871
Modern smogon would've cried over and banned ADV Tyranitar or GSC Snorlax

i don't think there is something close to oger flame and bax that was not banned in previous gens

bax from the few games i played was close to old dpp chomp, other than for the power and speed was really hard to revenge kill with very few support (chomp had sand veil, bax aurora veil)

oger maybe was close to a lando-i (banned) but even better, dengo as i said was really close to xy aegislash (banned, while dengo isn't)

adv tyranitar before ddance was supposed to remove some pokemons able to counter him (based on the ttar set and variants like if he run hp grass for pert etc) and be really afraid of dugtrio, isn't really immediate like putting veil + sd like bax or sd with oger flame under sun; u needed a gameplan, scout etc

going back to things like shed tail is the closest thing to baton pass for old gens, currently banned everywhere