Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

Status
Not open for further replies.
Did I say the mons were broken or was my gripe with Stored Power and Tera?

Fact: It got Magearna banned.

Prediction: It will get Manaphy banned.

It’s time we address the problem not the symptoms.
Hey, you have no objection from me. I find the root problem of Gen 9's issues to be Tera. If Tera wasn't legal, Gholdengo would have less of an impact on building and play patterns since it can't just cheese past Cinderace, Great Tusk, and Meowscarada by clicking the funny button. Without Tera, you can smite Kingambit with a Fighting- type move pretty much every time. Without Tera, Stored Power cheese would also be easier to deal with due to the fewer turns of set-up.
 
Last edited:
Hey, you have no objection from me. I find the root problem of Gen 9's issues to be Tera. If Tera wasn't legal, Gholdengo would have less of an impact on building and play patterns since it can't just cheese past Cinderace, Great Tusk, and Meowscarada by clicking the funny button. Without Tera, you can smite Kingambit with a Fighting- type move pretty much every time. Without Tera, Stored Power cheese would also be easier to deal with due to the fewer turns of set-up.
If tera is going to be the thing that gets ghold banned and not its effect on the hazard meta or defensive mons/general oppressiveness, I really am not gonna wanna play this tier when/if tera gets banned.
 
I'm not searching thru any posts right now, but DaddyBuzzwole, you should've bet money on the release date.I mean after all, it could have been in Febuary :smogonbird:

In other news, I really hope we get more solid, meta defining defensive mons. I personally dont care for how hyper offensive the direction that the devs seems to shoot for. I am not wishing for stall, but for Dondozo to be able to have real competition as a tough glue mon.
 
If tera is going to be the thing that gets ghold banned and not its effect on the hazard meta or defensive mons/general oppressiveness, I really am not gonna wanna play this tier when/if tera gets banned.
No need to cherry-pick. If Gholdengo gets banned it’s just another in the long list of Tera casualties, which is at 17 and will probably pass 25 in a couple months.

Yes, Tera is a factor in string cheese man’s cheapness. Bulky Gholdengo walls Tusk and Treads thanks to Tera. They outright beat it otherwise. Something to consider.
 
So from this list, the new returning Pokémon are:

Generation 1: Venusaur, Blastoise, Vileplume, Tentacruel, Dodrio, Dewgong, Exeggutor, Hitmonlee, Hitmonchan, Lapras
Generation 2: Meganium, Feraligatr, Lanturn, Bellossom, Granbull, Skarmory, Kingdra, Porygon2, Smeargle, Hitmontop
Generation 3: Sceptile, Blaziken, Swampert, Plusle, Minun, Flygon, Metagross
Generation 4: Rampardos, Bastiodon, Rhyperior, Electivire, Magmortar, Porygon-Z
Generation 5: Serperior, Emboar, Zebstrika, Excadrill, Whimsicott, Scrafty, Cinccino, Reuniclus, Galvantula, Golurk
Generation 6: Meowstic, Malamar
Generation 7: Incineroar, Primarina, Toucannon, Araquanid, Comfey, Minior
Generation 8: Alcremie, Duraludon
(i worked hard on this, please don't remove it)
so, which of these can deal with hazards in some way that would make ghold bearable?
  • out of our 4 returning rapid spinners:
    • :blastoise: blastoise has access to rapid spin but has never really used it much. blastoise overall isn't really that good, and ever since it got access to shell smash it just runs that instead of faffing about with rapid spin and utility stuff. it's got solid bulk and dark pulse so it has an ok matchup into ghold if you were to run it, but it's completely outclassed as a spinner by…
    • :tentacruel: tentacruel would match up nicely into ghold defensively because of its great special bulk, a speed stat allowing it to always outspeed non-scarf ghold with 232 evs and a neutral nature, and access to haze, which can prevent nasty plot sets from doing their thing. however, it can't really deal any meaningful damage to ghold and it has no reliable recovery, so it can't force ghold out to use rapid spin
    • :hitmontop: hitmontop isn't that great of a mon—his defense stats are good but his hp is just tragic and he doesn't have the power or speed to back it up. even with intimidate and av giving him an effective +1 to each defensive stat, he's not great. he also doesn't have any ways to hit ghold outside of sucker punch, which requires mindgames, and technician brutal swing, which is strong but seems like an unreasonable amount of commitment. overall, hitmontop doesn't have much use in ou beyond hyper-niche morkalpilled sets, and it definitely isn't threatening ghold. at least not in its current form—game freak has proven themselves willing to replace lame abilities with cool ones (shiftry being an example), so if they replace steadfast with scrappy, hitmontop will be able to both spin through blockers and threaten ghold with fighting stab, which would make it an ou staple. probably not happening, but a man can dream
    • :excadrill: excadrill is the big one. the possible game-changer. the mon iron treads cries itself asleep at night wishing it was. it might have trouble switching into ghold repeatedly because its defensive bulk isn't great, but once it's in, it outspeeds ghold and threatens it with a very strong earthquake; additionally, it's likely to bring sand setters and abusers with it, many of which match up well against ghold themselves. there's also whispers of it possibly getting ice spinner and/or spikes, both of which would massively increase its already-good viability
  • out of the 7 returning mons that at some point had access to defog, it's unlikely that any will retain it, but if they do:
    • :skarmory: skarmory is just corviknight with spikes and will probably match up into ghold the same way corv does: not at all. however, we can't discount the possibility that skarmory might lose roost, which would make it even worse than c- overrated outlaw mud show bullshit goofy ass unusable garbage electivire in dpp ou levels of noob bait
    • :blaziken: blaziken beats ghold hard offensively and seems like it'll be really good with tera, but it can't afford a free moveslot for defog even if it does come back. it might see use as a niche option or meme set but blaziken is not the defogger we've been looking for
    • :flygon: flygon isn't really ou-viable, but a ground-type with defog would have a kinda nice offensive matchup against ghold. i doubt it'll make any waves, though
    • :serperior: contrary serperior is going to be a fucking beast with tera—fire tera blast kicks the crap out of ghold, especially after a leaf storm boost or two. the main problem here, like with blaziken, is that it has no room for defog in its moveset
    • :whimsicott: whimsicott is a fun mon to use, but it has just an awful matchup against ghold, so the chances of it making waves as a defogger are slim to none
    • :toucannon: having a ghost immunity lets toucannon come in on ghold a decent amount of the time, but whether it can actually threaten ghold out depends on whether it keeps knock off. either way, toucannon's stats are garbage outside of attack so i don't think it'll find itself viable in ou no matter what its matchup against ghold ends up being
    • :comfey: comfey has the same problem as hitmontop where it has good defensive stats but too low of an hp stat to be bulky, plus not enough power or speed to accomplish much with. besides that, it can barely even touch gholdengo outside of tera blast and can't switch in because of make it rain
  • there's also other theoretical possibilities:
    • :smeargle: with access to tidy up and court change, smeargle gains the ability to remove hazards while ghold is on the field, but smeargle's main use is for sporing things and taking advantage of the free turns that generates because its stats are abysmal so it matches up poorly into virtually everything
    • :cinccino: there is a non-zero possibility that cinccino will get tidy up, in which case it will serve as a slightly faster, slightly stronger version of maushold
so, in conclusion, our options against ghold are looking to be slim pickings
 
on the topic of unbans- im basically in favor. I think theres a laundry list of pokemon that would be no worse in OU than some currents. One I've heard no one mention is palafin- which has been gone since before walking wake and waterpom came. We also didnt even have regileki's ability programmed right before we banned it.. But I think that generally we would move in the same direction so I don't see the point. And that's ok.

Smogon has near official tiers promoted on their social media including multiple non-existent hack or natdex fanfic metas, which have their own ladder. We will have so many ubers with less than 5% usage after DLC2 that they must consider OUBL. BigSmogon will only shout 'ubers is a banlist' 'ubers is OUBL' NPC slogans in response.

Our coolest pokemon are being discarded for an entire generation, and there is space for a tier for them. It is inevitable.

1700 elo
 

658Greninja

is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Moderator
Fact: It got Magearna banned.

Prediction: It will get Manaphy banned.

It’s time we address the problem not the symptoms.
Stored Power

Fact: It got Magearna banned.

Prediction: It will get Manaphy banned.

Other Prediction: It will get Calyrex banned.

It’s time we address the problem not the symptoms.

Joking aside. For a move to be banworthy, it would have to be overbearing to the point that a majority of the users are broken with it. Last Respects and Shed Tail were banned cause they were overbearing on the mons that had access to them.

Magearna had multiple reasons for being broken besides Stored Power. The best typing in the game pre-Tera with great bulk, 130 SpA, an ability that lets it snowball, two great setup moves, and a billion coverage options. Not to mention it got Spikes this gen which I have to question why.

Most of the Stored Power mons have their own set of flaws like being vulnerable to getting shut down by Taunt, Encore, Trick, Haze and are usually very Tera reliant. There has been higher usage of mons like Haze Milo, Tera Dark Blissey, Taunt, Encore, and many other meta trends.

Also Stored Power has the obvious flaws of needing multiple turns to set up which can be disrupted by either brute force or the aformentioned counterplay.
 
    • :cinccino: there is a non-zero possibility that cinccino will get tidy up, in which case it will serve as a slightly faster, slightly stronger version of maushold
so, in conclusion, our options against ghold are looking to be slim pickings
I hope Cinccino gets it, since its role in the anime and also its Dex entries shows that it always keeps itself clean due to the properties of its fur, I'll be damned if they don't give it Tidy Up
 
Praying so hard that Lando gets Defog back in DLC2, not because I care about keeping old meta staples in OU but because it's one of the most reliable hazard removers in the history of mons. You know what they say, the only thing that can stop a bad Ground/Flying type with a hazard is a good Ground/Flying type with removal :zonger:.

(ironically Glisc itself getting it back would also be good for this reason)
 
Stored Power

Fact: It got Magearna banned.

Prediction: It will get Manaphy banned.

Other Prediction: It will get Calyrex banned.

It’s time we address the problem not the symptoms.

Joking aside. For a move to be banworthy, it would have to be overbearing to the point that a majority of the users are broken with it. Last Respects and Shed Tail were banned cause they were overbearing on the mons that had access to them.

Magearna had multiple reasons for being broken besides Stored Power. The best typing in the game pre-Tera with great bulk, 130 SpA, an ability that lets it snowball, two great setup moves, and a billion coverage options. Not to mention it got Spikes this gen which I have to question why.

Most of the Stored Power mons have their own set of flaws like being vulnerable to getting shut down by Taunt, Encore, Trick, Haze and are usually very Tera reliant. There has been higher usage of mons like Haze Milo, Tera Dark Blissey, Taunt, Encore, and many other meta trends.

Also Stored Power has the obvious flaws of needing multiple turns to set up which can be disrupted by either brute force or the aformentioned counterplay.
I don't think Stored Power is op, but that's not how tiering works. It is actually usually the opposite.
Shed Tail and Last Respects were the only banned moves where a majority were of users were broken because of it.
Baton Pass had large distribution so a lot of crappy or tame baton pass users exist.
Evasion is really only broken on stuff like Chansey.
And Frankly OHKO moves suck in general and really are only banned due to being legacy bans.

However I don't think Stored Power is an issue. Power Trip is pretty much an upgrade to Pokemon who have it since it doesn't require you to have means to beat Dark types, and Pokemon like Manaphy and Magearna have excellent tools like Take Heart and Soul-Heart that help Stored Power abuse. They can abuse it better than most other Stored Power Pokemon. In contrast, Houndstone was obviously a shitmon and would tear apart teams with just Last Respects and would need to be like Unown tier stats and non-Ghost for it to be remotely balanced.
 
One I've heard no one mention is palafin- which has been gone since before walking wake and waterpom came.
Nothing has changed to make it less stupid to deal with. Bulk up sets are simply too potent in a tera meta. Similarly, Eleki really isn't any different with the ability programmed right. It just pivots on what it can't immediately kill and cleans up just a bit later. It's too difficult to punish.

We will have so many ubers with less than 5% usage after DLC2 that they must consider OUBL. BigSmogon will only shout 'ubers is a banlist' 'ubers is OUBL' NPC slogans in response.
So? This applies to multiple gens and their lower tiers. Some mons just end up unviable in the next tier up. Oh well. It happens.
 
We will have so many ubers with less than 5% usage after DLC2 that they must consider OUBL. BigSmogon will only shout 'ubers is a banlist' 'ubers is OUBL' NPC slogans in response.

Our coolest pokemon are being discarded for an entire generation, and there is space for a tier for them. It is inevitable.
Ubers is a banlist. Tiering and bans are handled differently there. It's a for-fun format where it's cool if it works but it working isn't the point, to the point where it banning something is an extremely rare thing that's happened, what, three times in nine generations? If you feel strongly about this, advocate for making UUbers an official format, not fucking up OU by dropping stuff that has no place in it. Just because something is too weak for Ubers doesn't mean it's not too strong for OU.
 
Nothing has changed to make it less stupid to deal with. Bulk up sets are simply too potent in a tera meta. Similarly, Eleki really isn't any different with the ability programmed right. It just pivots on what it can't immediately kill and cleans up just a bit later. It's too difficult to punish.



So? This applies to multiple gens and their lower tiers. Some mons just end up unviable in the next tier up. Oh well. It happens.
>barely remembered 5th gen mon stuck at the bottom of barely used instead of rocking zero use metagame is the same as writing off all of the coolest new pokemon of a generation. Please.
Ubers is a banlist. Tiering and bans are handled differently there. It's a for-fun format where it's cool if it works but it working isn't the point, to the point where it banning something is an extremely rare thing that's happened, what, three times in nine generations? If you feel strongly about this, advocate for making UUbers an official format, not fucking up OU by dropping stuff that has no place in it. Just because something is too weak for Ubers doesn't mean it's not too strong for OU.
I do feel as though my entire post was an advocacy for OUBL. It is inevitable.

You have people here advocating for pokemon much stronger than palafin, that didn't get two top pokemon added as checks since ban. It would need tera fairy to get past wake or be inviting a dracos. Waterpom can encore if it bulk ups on the switch or otherwise ivy it. It's as worthy a discussion in response to fitch's post as DARKRAI or any other uubers being discussed.
 
I do feel as though my entire post was an advocacy for OUBL. It is inevitable.
Literally how is the existence of an OUBL category any different from things as they are now. BL placements do not get their own tier. I reiterate: Advocate for creating UUbers instead of making OU worse.
You have people here advocating for pokemon much stronger than palafin, that didn't get two top pokemon added as checks since ban. It would need tera fairy to get past wake or be inviting a dracos. Waterpom can encore if it bulk ups on the switch or otherwise ivy it. It's as worthy a discussion in response to fitch's post as DARKRAI or any other uubers being discussed.
Waterpon has been on two surveys in a row and scored decently high as a problematic mon, so I don't know if that's the check you wanna advocate for. Broken checking broken is bad. You're right that it's as worthy of discussion as Darkrai though, in that it is not worthy of discussion at all and shouldn't be seriously considered. Whatever people here have been advocating for, I'm of the opinion that nothing in Ubers needs to drop unless Tera is restricted, and even then I would only seriously consider Volcarona.
 
I think it would be really funny if we banned Kingambit only to immediately release it back into OU when the DLC drops
 
on the topic of unbans- im basically in favor. I think theres a laundry list of pokemon that would be no worse in OU than some currents. One I've heard no one mention is palafin- which has been gone since before walking wake and waterpom came. We also didnt even have regileki's ability programmed right before we banned it.. But I think that generally we would move in the same direction so I don't see the point. And that's ok.

Smogon has near official tiers promoted on their social media including multiple non-existent hack or natdex fanfic metas, which have their own ladder. We will have so many ubers with less than 5% usage after DLC2 that they must consider OUBL. BigSmogon will only shout 'ubers is a banlist' 'ubers is OUBL' NPC slogans in response.

Our coolest pokemon are being discarded for an entire generation, and there is space for a tier for them. It is inevitable.

1700 elo
Think about it this way- regular Zacian sees practically 0 use in ubers because it's completely outclassed by Zacian-Crowned, but there isn't a universe where it would be okay in OU; its amazing attack, speed, typing, and movepool would ensure it would blast OU to smithereens if it were ever legal. Simply put, would you rather accept the fact that some pokemon need to be stuck in BL hell for the good of the metagame, or would you force every team to run Skeledirge just to allow literally everything to see play? And as other people have said, there's always the UUbers tier.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 5)

Top