Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[UltraSword]

Just dropping by to say thanks to all who banned Kyurem. Rain is back!!! Drizzle family we up!!

Having fun tearing things up with rain!



I haven’t tried homie Kommo-O yet. I don’t see why Dragon Dance / Swords Dance + Scale Shot wouldn’t work? CS seems more difficult because of the health sacrifice.

So very true and that was the point of the post I made right after this.

 

[658Greninja]

Kyurem’s ban is one of the most impactful we’ve seen in a while. I think it’s appropriate to just talk about stuff regarding SV OU, whether Kyurem’s ban affects those things or not. There’s alot to unpack, so let’s not waste time.

Gliscor (Just Gliscor)​

Kyurem being banned is an obvious boon for Gliscor. Pretty much 90% of Gliscors are SD now cause more ppl realized how broken it is. Utility Gliscor is still great, I’ve experimented Spikes/Toxic/U-Turn Gliscor paired with a fast Encorer like or , and it puts in hella work. Fast SD Gliscor is a huge development, letting Gliscor get off a boost in front of fast offenses that you otherwise falter to. Plus you outspeed , , and who otherwise smack you for big dmg, letting you 1v1 them after Tera. After Kyurem, is the most unhealthy presence in the tier. The breakers we have like , , and can be chipped, out-offensed, or outright checked by strong Balance options.

Sinistcha/Zama/Dnite for .

SpD Tera Water Garg/Tinka/SpD Molt for .

Pex/Gking/AV Crown for .

However SD Gliscor’s defensive counterplay is limited to and if Spikes aren’t used. Poison Heal + great bulk + Tera means it can’t be chipped or offensively pressured as easily as other breakers. Not only does it own Balance structures, but it’s also been used on Balance teams. There’s been an increase in SD Spike Stacking builds that have been more optimized. such as running to make up for the consequences of Terastilizing (losing the Spike immunity/Ground typing). Building SD teams is stupidly easy and it has only gotten easier with Kyurem’s departure. turns Balance vs Balance at high level either one-sided matchups or a race to see who’s SD wins. It promotes braindead, uninteractive gameplay of SD Protect Facade Protect Knock Protect. I know ppl are only gonna say no to banning cause they LOVE using the Zapluking strawman for every fucking argument, like they did for Kyurem. Let’s not act like , , or 3atks with Wisp/Knock don’t dog on these kinds of cores. If gets banned, I we can stop and let the meta relax imo.

The Slept-On Cat​

Meowscarada took center stage in early DLC2 but was pushed to the sidelines as the meta strayed from fat // boots spam. Personally I think it’s overhated and still good (like B+ tier good). It dislikes some trends like , , and the on the rise, but also appreciates the two latest bans. Gouging Fire who used it as setup fodder, and Kyurem who competed with it as the Ice button clicker. Personally it’s better than Weavile rn. Lemme explain.

-Access to Grass STAB means its way better into and than who struggles with these MUs, as well as landing big dmg into and Tera Water . Flower Trick’s crit chance as improves teams matchups vs Screens and .

-U-Turn lets Meow dodge bad matchups like /, , and , whereas is forced to click buttons or double.

-Meow’s Electric resistance is small, but makes it more effective at scouting Tera or rkilling , not being dead to a +1 Proto boosted Thunderclap. has to play 50/50s with Shard and Axel.

- is almost always pigeonholed into running Boots unless you wanna run some Sash Pickpocket or Band set which only fit on specific team structures. is a bit more diverse in its item slots. Band is kinda awkward, but Scarf is p good and Boots is underrated.

An Under-appreciated Magician​

I’ve always held the stance that is underrated. AV has great matchups into every non-Fairy/non-U-Turn special attacker in the tier while forcing process via Knock + Psychic Noise. However I came to appreciate Band as of recently. Kyurem’s ban makes the demand for breakers higher. It’s slow and loses the defensive utility of the AV set, but CB Hyperspace Fury is hella spammable and bypasses Protect scouting from //. I find that this excels on Voltturn since can crack open Balances on its own. AV + CB is a particularly great core. We could even consider running the UU Scarf set to surprise snipe and that otherwise threaten U-Turn.

Beneficiaries of No Kyurem​

Kyurem’s depature had a major impact on the tier. Ground types like and become less risky to use. G-Terrain teams are major winners of this. While hates /, it’s easier to run responses to those like without dying to Sub-Tect Kyurem. On that same note, is a bit better but still has to compete with as a BO rocker. and are fantastic anti-Balance mons that got punished by Kyurem, also has less competition. Defensive staples like and are also better overall.

Trending Upwards​

SpD popped up to check Kyurem (very unreliably I’d add), but it’s also really nice into , NP , , , and CM . + has become the 2nd most common Spike Stacking core next to + . got the spotlight during the OLT playoffs. With Psychic Noise/Knock + Magic Guard, it has garnered a role as a progress maker while also being fat enough to tank random Dark moves and click Focus Blast in a pinch. Balance teams have been experimenting with other hazard removal options like and . Both of these provide defensive value while the latter dominates hazard stack teams lacking .

Overhyped​

Gonna be honest, is the worst of the OU hazard leads. Loses to Helmet and . It has good utility with Red Card and Toxic Debris, but :glimmora; in alot of matchups feels deadweight, especially with an increase of Boots Spam. and usage is very high. So in many games, Tspikes do not have much of an impact. ’s usage might decline a bit due to Kyurem’s ban, but even so, is an excellent pivot/breaker, so more matchups where kinda does nothing.

>
The Real Best Web Setter​

Webs went from a strong archetype to being a bad matchup fish. Unless you run into an offense without hazard removal, Webs aren’t doing shit. Flops to Boots Spam teams which are more common, priority and fast Boots mons give it trouble. Boots is the most common variant. If they run into a or a , you have to play perfectly just to not fold. However, if you wanna use webs, I’d recommend over . is much bulkier and can 1v1 matchups like , , and which give trouble. Even after Webs are up, is still dishing out big damage and tanking hits with its good natural bulk.

Failed Experiments​

is a bit higher in usage and mons like n’ SD become hella dangerous without it. However is mostly useless outside of 1-2 matchups. Its a Steel type that can’t check anything which is bad when you’re competing with and . It’s way too difficult to build for a somewhat decent reward.

I’ve tested and while its good into ////, it has lackluster defensive utility, sucks vs Balance, and I’d much rather run other special walls on Balance than . Specially defensive without Unaware and a worse typing, no thanks. Being forced to run Crash to hit is also bad.

Sorry Magcargo my G, I just don’t see the vision.

 

[UltraSword]

However SD Gliscor’s defensive counterplay is limited to and if Spikes aren’t used. Poison Heal + great bulk + Tera means it can’t be chipped or offensively pressured as easily as other breakers. Not only does it own Balance structures, but it’s also been used on Balance teams. There’s been an increase in SD Spike Stacking builds that have been more optimized. such as running to make up for the consequences of Terastilizing (losing the Spike immunity/Ground typing). Building SD teams is stupidly easy and it has only gotten easier with Kyurem’s departure. turns Balance vs Balance at high level either one-sided matchups or a race to see who’s SD wins. It promotes braindead, uninteractive gameplay of SD Protect Facade Protect Knock Protect. I know ppl are only gonna say no to banning cause they LOVE using the Zapluking strawman for every fucking argument, like they did for Kyurem. Let’s not act like , , or 3atks with Wisp/Knock don’t dog on these kinds of cores. If gets banned, I we can stop and let the meta relax imo.

Look I get it. Technically sd gliscor has not that much defensive counterplay. However gliscor has plenty of checks and counters whether it goes Tera normal or not. Basically most pokemon that are both faster than gliscor and use a ice or really strong water attack can beat it when it isn't tera normal and that is a really big portion of the tier. As for Tera normal...I think you are sort of over exaggerating how good Tera normal is offensively and defensively. Not only are there quite a few steel and even ghost types that kind of laugh at gliscor's facade but normal has no resistances (unless you count ghost immunity which who would use a ghost attack against gliscor unless they are really that desperate) and is weak to a very common attacking type in fighting. I am not saying gliscor is bad and I am not even saying it isn't like a top 10 pokemon in the tier but I do not think it is nearly broken enough for a ban. Please respect my opinion and don't type angry replies to this post

Edit: also as you can tell my argument doesn't rely on zapkinglu fear mongering so bully for me I guess lol

 

[Bold School]

(unless you count ghost immunity which who would use a ghost attack against gliscor unless they are really that desperate)

Hex. I agree with most of what you said, but there is a reason to do this. Hex is really good anti-Gliscor tech unless it is Tera Normal because it wants to poison itself.

 

[UltraSword]

Hex. I agree with most of what you said, but there is a reason to do this. Hex is really good anti-Gliscor tech unless it is Tera Normal because it wants to poison itself.

True I forgot about hex but anyway thank you for reading and responding respectfully.

 

[Finchinator]

Regarding suspect threads, the next OU suspect test will officially have two threads.

The first thread will be restricted to people who got voting reqs in the last suspect test (Kyurem) AND people who got voting reqs in that suspect test. We will reevaluate this practice and the specifics behind it after the first trial run, but we wanted to keep it simple and avoid arbitrary inclusion metrics for the first run. A lot of discussion and factors went into this decision, but please note it is not a permanent one and we will use our best judgement moving forward to make future decisions.

There will also be a thread for everyone to post in as per normal; I will be sure to participate in this thread and cross important points between both threads to help keep discussion flowing. For example, if you make an exceptional point in the public thread, I may quote it in the qualified thread or if some discussion point gains traction in the qualified thread, I may allude to it in the public thread. This may be a bit uneven and require a little extra work on my end initially, but it is well worthwhile to give the community the best suspect experience.

We are still working on voting reqs reform, which is being discussed here.

 

[luckie]

Regarding suspect threads, the next OU suspect test will officially have two threads.

The first thread will be restricted to people who got voting reqs in the last suspect test (Kyurem) AND people who got voting reqs in that suspect test. We will reevaluate this practice and the specifics behind it after the first trial run, but we wanted to keep it simple and avoid arbitrary inclusion metrics for the first run. A lot of discussion and factors went into this decision, but please note it is not a permanent one and we will use our best judgement moving forward to make future decisions.

There will also be a thread for everyone to post in as per normal; I will be sure to participate in this thread and cross important points between both threads to help keep discussion flowing. For example, if you make an exceptional point in the public thread, I may quote it in the qualified thread or if some discussion point gains traction in the qualified thread, I may allude to it in the public thread. This may be a bit uneven and require a little extra work on my end initially, but it is well worthwhile to give the community the best suspect experience.

We are still working on voting reqs reform, which is being discussed here.

Will the first thread for people who got voting reqs be available for all to see? (but not to talk in of course) Or is the entire thread completely locked off for people who didn't get reqs?

 

[ausma]

Will the first thread for people who got voting reqs be available for all to see? (but not to talk in of course) Or is the entire thread completely locked off for people who didn't get reqs?

It should be a public thing to see, yes. Part of the point is to help inform people who aren’t super familiar with higher level arguments or are aiming to learn more about the metagame and its balance.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

It should be a public thing to see, yes. Part of the point is to help inform people who aren’t super familiar with higher level arguments or are aiming to learn more about the metagame and its balance.

wouldn't that just be one thread with extra steps, though? it's possible to quote posts from across threads, so people in the public thread will just quote things from the qualified thread if they want to reply. "unqualified" people replying to and interacting with the posts of "qualified" people seems to be the thing that people are really taking issue with, and having both threads publicly visible wouldn't really change that

frankly, this whole thread-splitting thing reeks of elitism, as does the discussion of making reqs "harder" or "stricter". let's be 100% honest with what's actually going on here. this is not an attempt to raise the "quality" of discussion or of the voterbase. quite a lot of the toxicity and low-quality arguments in the kyurem discussion were coming from established players with badges or trophies. if the goal was really to raise the quality of the voterbase, the best fix is to simply hold good players to a higher standard when it comes to discussions and actually enforce the rules of discussion on suspect threads (according to the rules thread's section on suspect thread etiquette, "don't ban x because y becomes broken" is supposed to be infraction-worthy, "no exceptions"). if that doesn't happen, things won't actually improve because the calls are coming from inside the house. what i think is happening here is that a certain circle of top players is upset that "lesser" players with different opinions from them are allowed to speak and vote, and said top players happen to have the ear of the higher-ups and are trying to make it harder for the average player to speak and vote

 

[UltraSword]

wouldn't that just be one thread with extra steps, though? it's possible to quote posts from across threads, so people in the public thread will just quote things from the qualified thread if they want to reply. "unqualified" people replying to and interacting with the posts of "qualified" people seems to be the thing that people are really taking issue with, and having both threads publicly visible wouldn't really change that

frankly, this whole thread-splitting thing reeks of elitism, as does the discussion of making reqs "harder" or "stricter". let's be 100% honest with what's actually going on here. this is not an attempt to raise the "quality" of discussion or of the voterbase. quite a lot of the toxicity and low-quality arguments in the kyurem discussion were coming from established players with badges or trophies. if the goal was really to raise the quality of the voterbase, the best fix is to simply hold good players to a higher standard when it comes to discussions and actually enforce the rules of discussion on suspect threads (according to the rules thread's section on suspect thread etiquette, "don't ban x because y becomes broken" is supposed to be infraction-worthy, "no exceptions"). if that doesn't happen, things won't actually improve because the calls are coming from inside the house. what i think is happening here is that a certain circle of top players is upset that "lesser" players with different opinions from them are allowed to speak and vote, and said top players happen to have the ear of the higher-ups and are trying to make it harder for the average player to speak and vote

I don't disagree with you completely but to be fair this isn't based on how experienced or well-known you are it is based on whether you got reqs in the next suspect and/or the last one. Now of course this will lead to more of these "higher leveled" players being in that thread than...less experienced players but this thread isn't being directed specifically at these more established faces.

 

[lesbiangunshow]

I doubt that the council is being witlessly manipulated into making life harder for the "average player" by a cabal of mean spirited "top players", and imo we should let them cook.

As was made clear, none of this is permanent and if The People don't like it there will be no reason to hang onto it.

For the record, I agree that the thread could be moderated a little more strongly wrt the regulations laid out for what constitutes "valid" discussion, but there's a huge gray area there and could very well backfire worse than the measures being discussed currently.

 

[ant4456]

I don't disagree with you completely but to be fair this isn't based on how experienced or well-known you are it is based on whether you got reqs in the next suspect and/or the last one.

(we'll just forget that the initial proposal by 3d was to give tour players a free pass into the thread)

 

[Karmazz]

Look I get it. Technically sd gliscor has not that much defensive counterplay. However gliscor has plenty of checks and counters whether it goes Tera normal or not. Basically most pokemon that are both faster than gliscor and use a ice or really strong water attack can beat it when it isn't tera normal and that is a really big portion of the tier. As for Tera normal...I think you are sort of over exaggerating how good Tera normal is offensively and defensively. Not only are there quite a few steel and even ghost types that kind of laugh at gliscor's facade but normal has no resistances (unless you count ghost immunity which who would use a ghost attack against gliscor unless they are really that desperate) and is weak to a very common attacking type in fighting. I am not saying gliscor is bad and I am not even saying it isn't like a top 10 pokemon in the tier but I do not think it is nearly broken enough for a ban. Please respect my opinion and don't type angry replies to this post

Edit: also as you can tell my argument doesn't rely on zapkinglu fear mongering so bully for me I guess lol

Sd scor’s problem is not being uncounterable, but being able to easily outlast its counters. It’s hazard resistance and poison heal make it very hard to chip. In contrast, many of its offensive checks like rai, woger, and deo have no recovery so any damage taken is permanent. Even hard counters like dozo and the metal birds and pivots like alo and lando do not appreciate being knocked.

As for tera normal, it is very strong offensively. Stab on facade bringing its base power up to 210 makes up for scor’s often lacking attack stat, often straight up ohkoing offensive mons at +2. Eq or knock smacks most relevant steel and ghost types. Defensively it’s not terrible either. Gliscor is known for living basically any neutral hit, and the only super relevant stab fighting moves are from zama (which beats sd scor anyways) and val. The biggest downside to tera normal is losing your spikes immunity.

Overall I’m still not convinced if gliscor would deserve a ban, but I just wanted to provide some counterpoints because I definitely think it’s a discussion that should be had.

 

[peepeepoopoo722]

wouldn't that just be one thread with extra steps, though? it's possible to quote posts from across threads, so people in the public thread will just quote things from the qualified thread if they want to reply. "unqualified" people replying to and interacting with the posts of "qualified" people seems to be the thing that people are really taking issue with, and having both threads publicly visible wouldn't really change that

frankly, this whole thread-splitting thing reeks of elitism, as does the discussion of making reqs "harder" or "stricter". let's be 100% honest with what's actually going on here. this is not an attempt to raise the "quality" of discussion or of the voterbase. quite a lot of the toxicity and low-quality arguments in the kyurem discussion were coming from established players with badges or trophies. if the goal was really to raise the quality of the voterbase, the best fix is to simply hold good players to a higher standard when it comes to discussions and actually enforce the rules of discussion on suspect threads (according to the rules thread's section on suspect thread etiquette, "don't ban x because y becomes broken" is supposed to be infraction-worthy, "no exceptions"). if that doesn't happen, things won't actually improve because the calls are coming from inside the house. what i think is happening here is that a certain circle of top players is upset that "lesser" players with different opinions from them are allowed to speak and vote, and said top players happen to have the ear of the higher-ups and are trying to make it harder for the average player to speak and vote

the qualified thread will be like 2 pages long of valued commentary that everyone can read the entirety of rather than 12 pages or whatever of repeated arguments and unrelated comments from literal whos where the valued discussion gets buried and unread by those with limited time. its a good decision.

I do disagree personally with raising reqs... I tried and was unable to reach them as is.. So I'd probably write off trying to participate if raised. But maybe that is for the best too. Idk. Unqualified opinion.

 

[Rekka's Backend]

As far as split threads go:

I've refrained from commenting in Suspect Threads for the large part due to wanting to see 'higher' leveled players commentary and what their overall thoughts are per suspect; not because I feel as though my opinion is necessarily 'less' important but they might have a more nuanced and/or more clear opinion of the suspect and thread for me to formulate with my own thoughts. For the Kyu suspect, I was pro-ban for multiple reaosns; and while some good DNB arguments were raised, I ultimately found the reasoning weak in a lot of them.

I've played a lot of Comp games in my lifetime, and so I understand the value of 'high level' opinion; now, long as this directed in a constructive manner that isn't dickish and/or inflammatory I find it highly valuable. Unfortunately due to a full time job+a family to take care of I don't have nearly as much time to grind in ladder to get reqs myself, so I appreciate the commentary and arguments to help me understand how it might be a skill issue vs not factoring in counters I don't typically use, etc.

With a public vs more curated thread, I feel more opportunity for me to comfortably post and engage; ideally as with it being 'public' I won't feel as though I'm potentially muddying the discussion. As I very much enjoy discussion and proper dialogue and not yelling at opposing sides here, as we all want whats best for the meta game regardless. So I look forward to tryin this out, and maybe letting points I feel are important shine thru my own dialogue here for once lol.

The only thing I want for the curated thread is for any rule breaking behavior to be heavily enforced. I don't want petty ego shit and cheap shots to get in the way of actual valuable discussion, I came here to learn off and on from people with more time than me not seeing shit flinging from manchildren.

 

[ausma]

wouldn't that just be one thread with extra steps, though? it's possible to quote posts from across threads, so people in the public thread will just quote things from the qualified thread if they want to reply. "unqualified" people replying to and interacting with the posts of "qualified" people seems to be the thing that people are really taking issue with, and having both threads publicly visible wouldn't really change that

Not really. It puts the thoughts of voters at the forefront and in a digestible setting. The reality is that OU suspect threads are extremely active and turbulent, and regardless of who is posting there, we have been told that the volatile nature of the thread has discouraged some reqs-holders and tournament players from sharing their thoughts. Having a qualified thread is not an attempt to weed out bad players, but an attempt to highlight the thoughts of those with experience in a setting that’s well-contained and encourages participation from as many community members as possible.

if the goal was really to raise the quality of the voterbase, the best fix is to simply hold good players to a higher standard when it comes to discussions and actually enforce the rules of discussion on suspect threads (according to the rules thread's section on suspect thread etiquette, "don't ban x because y becomes broken" is supposed to be infraction-worthy, "no exceptions"). if that doesn't happen, things won't actually improve because the calls are coming from inside the house. what i think is happening here is that a certain circle of top players is upset that "lesser" players with different opinions from them are allowed to speak and vote, and said top players happen to have the ear of the higher-ups and are trying to make it harder for the average player to speak and vote

This part of your post reminds me of something I have been meaning to share and be transparent about but haven’t really had the opportunity to. Since you are making this claim (in a rather provocative way) I need to illustrate this situation.

I ask that, for a moment, you put yourself in our shoes. When it comes to moderating, these types of situations are not black and white. Depending on the optics of action, we have to take different approaches, especially when it could lead to posters (like you) and the wider community in general being harassed and bullied. In tandem with the fact we have adopted a more lax moderating style across the board, it has led to us not enforcing some rules when they should have been and taking alternative moderation routes.

We did not handle this situation the best, and our new moderation style has some caveats involved. We are not perfect, and are working to improve ourselves and our system where applicable. This overall complication in moderation has been discussed at length internally and we will be seeing consistent moderation with this new suspect thread style across the board.

While I personally do not agree with the sentiment behind making reqs more difficult, there are components of the discussion that, too, are not black and white. We are potentially are going to adopt reqs alternatives, for instance. You are welcome to voice your complaints about these choices as you please, but to paint this situation as though we don’t care about the wider userbase is blatantly wrong.

 

[ant4456]

To clarify my thoughts, I like the second thread I just think the reason this is all being brought up is lame. The biggest reason suspect threads have been worse lately is literally a Tour player (who is now forum banned. Again.) and a lot of the situation reads as "People disagreed with the popular Tour player so the entire Tour community came out in droves to support him".

Combine that with the fact that we're pushing for higher Suspect Test reqs despite the fact that there has literally been zero complaining for like... A long time about it, and you have to at least realize that none of this is natural. People didn't see a problem and react, because if they saw the problem these two things would've been brought up long ago.

When did suspect test reqs suddenly become a problem? When did the threads go from too populous of "undesirables" (let's not pretend that there's respect for these people; the original, popular-with-tour proposal called them "shitters" ausma; you can try to decouple the actual mod response from the initial request, but I'm not going to let that slide) and why is it specifically now that this is a problem?

This whole thing reeks of petty, disingenuousness. A lot of the proposals aren't even bad, they're just being done for the wrong reason.

 

[FayaWizard]

I’m going to be frank, while I heavily disagreed with CTC’s posts and pushed for stricter moderation of his posts, the issue with suspect discussion is far more about the forum mains who post one-two liners with little to no substance, than CTC’s inflammatory posts. The latter is the result of one bad actor, the former is the result of many, and I personally think the qualified thread is a great way to ensure higher quality discussion while not being too elitist. If you qualify for suspect reqs, you shouldn’t have your post buried by two people having a back and forth conversation about something barely related to the suspect itself.

And sure, you can just say “o the forum mods should be stricter”, but let’s be honest, if they were, all of you would be complaining about how your voices are being suppressed and they were favoring the qualified players anyways. So this way, you can still have your general thread to discuss, with the same moderation, while we also get a (hopefully) higher quality thread that has been sorely needed this generation.

Is the post that sparked this elitist? Sure, but the actual intention and changes by the OU council aren’t (or at least not in a negative way), so I don’t get why this is being framed as “the OU council is trying to suppress the people and enable their tournament player friends”.

 

[ant4456]

Post 2 on topic bc I wanted to say more:

I also wanna say that this isn't even a normal case of elitism. Personally, I don't find "elitism" to be a real allegation of Smogon culture- that's literally just a part of it, always will be, it can be toxic and it also can just be a part of it institutionally. Smogon is objectively elitist, and it's not necessarily a bad thing.

That's why I don't critique any of this by that lens; in fact I don't even bring up the "shitters" thing to critique calling people that or whatever. I just think we should be honest about what's happening here, this is about promoting the Tour community more through the Suspect process and demoting non-Tour players (by number; not that non-Tour players can't get reqs, to be clear). That's why the reqs requirement is being pushed up and that's why the original proposal had the idea of giving some Tour players access immediately.

What makes this all abnormal is we're kinda putting a curtain over all of this. We're generally more blatant about it, and I think it's a bit weird that we are acting otherwise. Let's just be honest and debate the actual real premise here: Are Tour players prioritized enough by our Suspect process, how prioritized should they be, and what's the acceptable amount of non-Tour influence we should have in our discourse and reqs?

This is what almost every argument about Reqs and Suspect Tests come down to in the history of Smogon, this is no different.

 

[luckie]

It should be a public thing to see, yes. Part of the point is to help inform people who aren’t super familiar with higher level arguments or are aiming to learn more about the metagame and its balance.

That was formerly my main and only concern and I'm glad it's like that.

I can somewhat get why people would be hesitant to try this new format but I think having quick access to a group of people who (for the most part probably?) are guaranteed to be fairly experienced with the tier and their knowledge on the suspect in question and usually to the meta as a whole would be a boon for someone like me who's just trying to dip their toes into SV.

EDIT: To avoid double posting, I'll just add on here. Another thing I want to ask to ask ausma, having a "qualified thread" won't stop people who's qualified before from posting on the regular thread right?

 

[ant4456]

I’m going to be frank, while I heavily disagreed with CTC’s posts and pushed for stricter moderation of his posts, the issue with suspect discussion is far more about the forum mains who post one-two liners with little to no substance, than CTC’s inflammatory posts. The latter is the result of one bad actor, the former is the result of many, and I personally think the qualified thread is a great way to ensure higher quality discussion while not being too elitist. If you qualify for suspect reqs, you shouldn’t have your post buried by two people having a back and forth conversation about something barely related to the suspect itself.

And sure, you can just say “o the forum mods should be stricter”, but let’s be honest, if they were, all of you would be complaining about how your voices are being suppressed and they were favoring the qualified players anyways. So this way, you can still have your general thread to discuss, with the same moderation, while we also get a (hopefully) higher quality thread that has been sorely needed this generation.

Is the post that sparked this elitist? Sure, but the actual intention and changes by the OU council aren’t (or at least not in a negative way), so I don’t get why this is being framed as “the OU council is trying to suppress the people and enable their tournament player friends”.

To be clear IDC if it's elitist (I think elitism is just a part of Smogon thread culture, reqs are technically elitist but the system is a good thing) and I think having a gatekept thread is a good thing, I just think that the conversation is definitely in way less good faith than you think.

If the issue was just bad posters, we'd have changed this whole thing a year ago. This generation made the suspect threads a lot worse and I don't know exactly why (this generation seemingly has less ladder players than Gen 8, but seemingly way more forum activity?) but this issue has persisted for a long time and that's a big part of why I like the idea of two threads. Gen 8 threads were a lot more chill and generally higher-quality, and the shift from that to this gen was frankly stark. I think it's a good thing that it's being gatekept, even if it gatekeeps me.

I don't view this as the OU council trying to suppress people, that's very silly, I see the OU council as giving a better and good faith version of the proposal- I think this implementation is good. It's still gatekept but it's gatekept with legitimate means rather than just going off of Vibes on who should be able to post in it.

 

[UltraSword]

Well I just realized that the 13th edition of my running series "The Random Mons Of OU" is going to be on Halloween. Spooky.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Well I just realized that the 13th edition of my running series "The Random Mons Of OU" is going to be on Halloween. Spooky.

View attachment 674915

this calls for the reinstatement of spooky mode to the forums effective immediately

 

[ShizuOsaka]

I think this post is a severe oversimplification and generally lacks nuance.

I'll just address your example of first.
First, you shouldn't be surprised by tera fire since it is one of the most common teras on anyway.
Second, frequently runs roar (yes, this was partially due to and , but it's a great move on it regardless), so even if tera fires, you can just roar it out, and ur opponent is gonna be left looking a bit stupid with dauntless burned, tera burned, and a rocks weak dog. If their zama is roar? Well it probably loses to smth else on your team then e.g. hex ghold

If tera fire dog is somehow in a last mon situation vs , and somehow all of ur checks r weakened/dead, wouldn't you say your opponent deserves to win for successfully positioning their win condition? And last mon tera fire would be somewhat telegraphed anyway if your opponent seems to be hellbent on preserving zamazenta's health when it supposedly gets stonewalled by your moltres... should probably be sounding the alarm bells in your head and probably preserve smth like ep lando, prim, etc.

Second, stone edge is maybe the 8th move on ironpress . Idpress zama has 3 mandatory moveslots in id, press, and crunch - it wants any of rest, roar, sub, heavy slam way more than it does stone edge, so the opportunity cost of running stone edge (which only ohkos moltres -zapdos doesn't even instantly die so u can still preserve it) is pretty massive. Yeah sure, zama can beat with stone edge... but this doesn't indicate brokenness.

Zama is not unique in being able to beat smth through slotting on the right coverage. In fact, pretty much every single offensive pokemon in the tier, can bypass some of their checks eat through either the right tera or the right coverage/set - and this isn't broken, counterplay isn't linear courtesy of tera and set variety, and limitations can manifest in many different forms e.g. chip, hazards, positioning, opportunities, splashability, team support needed, etc.

The main reason why Zamazenta isn't broken is how easy and natural it is to fit multiple mons that 'sort of' or 'mostly' beat it on a single team:

Let's go over the teambuilding checklist:
1. Every team needs to handle . In relation to pokemon, splashable options include , , , and . Would you look at that, if you run lando and moltres for gambit, you already have one mon that 'mostly' beats zamazenta. Your own zama can even roar out your opponent's zama if you speed creep too. Other adaptations to gambit include stuff like wisp, encore, faster priority and roar. So you might see stuff like encore val, wisp pult, raging bolt, roar molt/zama. Would you look at that, now your team has something else that 'sort of' matches up well into zama.

2. Every team needs hazards. Unless ur boots zama (which isn't even close to broken, since it rewards good play/prediction, gives up significant defensive utility compared to ironpress, has severe 4mss since giving up either ice fang or heavy slam is horrendous, and can't do anything into something remotely bulky that it can't hit supereffectively e.g. alo), you're gonna be taking spikes/rocks chip every time u come in. Zamazenta usually has to come in early against its will in order to switch into mons like oger or gambit, so chipping it is not a difficult task. Chipping zama and burning dauntless makes it much harder to sweep with and expands its pool of existing counterplay (e.g. val moonblast may ohko now).

3. Every team needs to deal with , every team needs speed control, some teams need a spin blocker, most teams need special attackers (many of which happen to matchup favourably into zama) etc. Highly viable glues such as , , and also give zama a hard time, and would probably be run anyway even if zama didn't exist. Even if you want a dedicated, one mon zamazenta check... we still have great options in bold tera fairy and and even the niche options like (albeit only fits on very specific playstyles) and aren't unviable.


I could go on and on, but I think i've made my point. is a mon that you can not even consciously account for when teambuilding (unless ur playing HO) and probably still come out fine against it. Even hyper offense, the archetype zama is meant to excel against, can beat zamazenta with something like encore val/dnite, timely tera ghosts (trading tera for ur opponent's best HO check is more than worth it), good positioning, and chip from stuff like moth. It's fine for HO to trade 2 mons for zamazenta as well if it opens up the mon e.g. gambit that probably wins u the game.

I'm saying this as someone who mainly plays HO: it's one of the healthiest presences in the ou metagame. People need to stop only looking at when it wins (because generally when it wins, it looks like it wins by a lot), and instead the numerous instances where it did nothing or body pressed into flame body or whatever.

1. I don't think it is uncommon to see a Zamazenta running Stone Edge, especially given the rise of Moltres and Zapdos. And once again, when I put into comparison with other mons, Zamn feels much better to defensively check, especially in a more balance teams (aka you usually don't want to run passive mons like Pex or Dozo).
2. While every team needs to handle Gambit, it is much easier for Zama to come to the point of snowballing for game than for a Gambit to do the same. People overestimate the Sucker Punch main game, because Gambit is usually the one in a bigger disadvantage of such duel due to its terrible speed. Zamazenta doesn't have the same issue, and among the checks you have listed for Gambit that you commonly run, Lando has to compromise its bulk to run Rocky Helmet, which means it will be chipped to death before it can actually pose as a threat to Zamazenta (unless you tera fire). Tusk doesn't reliably check Zama without tera, because it doesn't do enough damage in return and will get out damaged by IronPress. Some other options like Iron Valiant or Encore Nite are quite specific for a playstyle (HO). Wisp is very helpful against Zamn, but once again, you have to mind tera Fire. Pult may also run double status set to deal with Zamn, but then you have one less slot to slot in either a Dragon STAB for common use or U-turn for pivot, so I may see it as a more extreme option to this matter.
3. Talking about the Waterpon situation feels like a broken checks broken for me, as Waterpon is also the one that has seen a lot of talks about being a potential suspect target. Gambit doesn't like coming in too early unless it's Balloon, or it will also... well, be chipped by hazard damage, which is arguably worse than Zama's situation because it usually wants to stay healthy for the end game. Also, since you mentioned a lot of checks for Gambit above, it's generally unwise to bring in Zama early, which means you can preserve the Zama a lot until you actually find a space for it to get into the game.
4. Yeah, I did say about Bold Ghold being a good specific Zama check that is actually good anyway, but I find Glowking not as reliable of a Zama check as you would expect. While it has amazing bulk for Regenerator, the fact that it doesn't usually run Slack Off means it can be out-offensed by the myriad of tier's still-running-strong special attackers (like Darkrai). Cruch also does a good amount of damage to Glowking (around 40%, not including the drop), so it isn't as reliable as like... Bold Ghold. I do also run Gliscor, but it can only check non-sub or non-tera Steel Zamn. Same with Okidogi.

Maybe this is just my personal experience, but the only check I find that is truly consistent against most Zamazenta sets is Bold Ghold, which is exactly the reason why I find Zamazenta a problematic mon.

 

[sims796]

this calls for the reinstatement of spooky mode to the forums effective immediately

Don't get me started. That was my preferred mode, then outta nowhere it disappeared!