Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

Unstoppable1 said:
Gj friend, now count the "answers" to Gouging Fire and after that we can unban it
I will help:
:Dachsbun:
:Dondozo:
:Heatran: :Air_balloon:
:Skarmory: (easy alive +6 with sturdy lol)
:Deoxys_defense:
:Regirock:
:Alomomola:
And if you still dont understand what i want to say, we are talking OU 6x6 matches and not about 1v1, Hydrapple just "eats" boosters on your Moth/Ival/Rbolt and then you cry when your >1300 elo opp switches to Glowking (for example).

I would definitely prefer to keep my tera (no), than use it and OHKO your hazards removal (Ice Spinner Tusk) and stay in full hp
Balloon mons)) Iron Crown)))
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What are you talking about? Gouging Fire was a DD abusing setup mon that also had the ability for insane banded wallbreaking sets. Hydrapple is a U-turn weak, 44 base speed stick in the mud that has good, but not crazy, special attack. It doesn't get Booster Energy. Even if it sets up an NP, it's still probably moving after most mons that aren't walls (and even some walls) the next turn. These are not the same situations. Like if you get swept by Hydrapple, you probably did something really wrong.

Also, what are you even saying with your "answers" for GF? Dozo is a check, unless it is something like Sun Band that 2HKOs it anyways. There are also issues for Heatran, losing to EQ after a hit. Mons that have literally no niche in OU like D-defense and Dachsbun don't count. When people like DaddyBuzzwole were giving example of checks for Hydrapple, they are talking with mostly OU mons or lower tier mon that have real niches in the tier like Tinkaton. Like nobody in OU uses Regirock. I'm not going to dignify Sturdy Skarmory. You know why.
 
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Bold School said:
What are you talking about? Gouging Fire was a DD abusing setup mon that also had the ability for insane banded wallbreaking sets. Hydrapple is a U-turn weak, 44 base speed stick in the mud that has good, but not crazy, special attack. I doesn't get Booster Energy. Even if it sets up an NP, it's still probably moving after most mons that aren't walls (and even some walls) the next turn. These are not the same situations. Like if you get swept by Hydrapple, you probably did something really wrong.

Also, what are you even saying with your "answers" for GF? Dozo is a check, unless it is something like Sun Band that 2HKOs it anyways. There are also issues for Heatran, losing to EQ after a hit. Mons that have literally no niche in OU like D-defense and Dascbun don't count. When people like DaddyBuzzwole were giving example of checks for Hydrapple, they are talking with mostly OU mons or lower tier mon that have real niches in the tier like Tinkaton. Like nobody in OU uses Regirock. I'm not going to dignify Sturdy Skarmory. You know why.
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Why do you keep answering me?

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-790653 - Empo won with Hydrapple vs 4 INSANE checks
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-791206 - SW won with Hydrapple vs 3 INSANE checks Darkrai, Moth and Kyurem
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-792282 - SupaG won vs 3 INSANE checks

If your Hydrapple died, maybe you should play other games (like Tetris)

Now stop reply, i asked for this 10 messages ago
 
Unstoppable1 said:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-790653 - Empo won with Hydrapple vs 4 INSANE checks
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turn 3-4: balloon tinkaton switches in on hydrapple ep, forces it out, and gets up rocks
turn 8-9: hydrapple switches in and is immediately forced to switch out because pult comes in on the same turn
turn 18-19: hydrapple switches into waterpon and is able to hit tinkaton with a correctly predicted earth power, making actual progress for the first time in the match
turn 31-32: hydrapple pivots in and out against waterpon. the only meaningful progress made here by empo is moltres burning the waterpon on the u-turn
turn 37-38: hydrapple comes back in and immediately has to switch out again because of the pult. 3d correctly predicts the tink switch and hits her with hex
turn 63: empo has to sack darkrai to get hydrapple in
turn 64: tusk does 66% to hydrapple with ice spinner before dying
turn 65: moltres loses to fickle beam… only because it got para'd by darkrai earlier

overall analysis: empo's win was largely the result of the actions of other team members—darkrai paralyzed the moltres, which screwed it over with full para several times over the course of the match; gliscor was also responsible for wearing down a lot of 3d's team. by the end of the game, all of 3d's hydrapple checks had been killed or weakened enough by other mons to allow hydrapple to take the win. that doesn't make hydrapple broken, it makes empo a good player who recognized his win condition with hydrapple, made a game plan, and followed through with it. even then, a couple more correct predictions from 3d could have better exploited all the switching that hydrapple was doing—clicking u-turn instead of ivy cudgel on turn 31 would have taken it down to something like 40 and swung the momentum in 3d's favor, or clicking cudgel instead of u-turn on turn 32 would have goobed the moltres and avoided the burn. nothing here has demonstrated any sort of brokenness about hydrapple
Unstoppable1 said:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-791206 - SW won with Hydrapple vs 3 INSANE checks Darkrai, Moth and Kyurem
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turn 40-44: hydrapple comes in on a burned zamazenta. zamazenta sets up a couple iron defenses while hydrapple sets up a nasty plot. zama rests, then hydrapple teras and proceeds to spam giga drain until it wins

overall analysis: hydrapple doesn't even come in until the opponent has only a burned zamazenta left (and soulwind also had 4 other mons in the back, including a perfectly healthy gliscor). none of the checks you mentioned actually interacted with hydrapple at all
Unstoppable1 said:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-792282 - SupaG won vs 3 INSANE checks
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turn 11-14: glowking lets hydrapple come in with a chilly reception. supag correctly predicts a tinkaton switch-in and chunks her with earth power, but is forced out by moltres
turn 16-19: hydrapple comes in with mola wish support and takes a grasspon u-turn before nailing moltres with a fickle beam proc. moltres chunks it with u-turn and goes into grasspon, which hydrapple is forced to switch out of. it doesn't come back in for the rest of the match

overall analysis: tusk won that match. hydrapple put in some significant work by softening up ogerpon, tink, and moltres until tusk could sweep the whole team, but nothing about that constitutes brokenness

tl;dr: none of these replays actually show anything broken about the mon at all
 
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Okay, actually, I keep wondering: Is Gliscor actually a problem or is it just that the meta hasn't adapted to it yet? I've seena lot of takes on the Gliscor fandom and hatebase, and i've been 50/50 on it basically since it's reintroduction.

I have at least a surface level idea on what my goat does; Hazards, Knock Off, SD Facade (bonus points if it's Tera Normal), all that jazz. I know Gliscor is not without fault, either. It's either trading speed for bulk or vice versa, it can sometimes struggle to fit everything it wants, it's not that strong, at least without Swords Dance boosts, Encore can be annoying, Ice Beam. None of this is foreign territory for me. However, Gliscor the stall breaker and patriot is also deceptively hard to account for in the builder. That, or i'm not looking in the right places.

is Gliscor genuinely a problem, or am I just fumbling against it repeatedly?
 

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Cyber-DJ said:
Okay, actually, I keep wondering: Is Gliscor actually a problem or is it just that the meta hasn't adapted to it yet? I've seena lot of takes on the Gliscor fandom and hatebase, and i've been 50/50 on it basically since it's reintroduction.

I have at least a surface level idea on what my goat does; Hazards, Knock Off, SD Facade (bonus points if it's Tera Normal), all that jazz. I know Gliscor is not without fault, either. It's either trading speed for bulk or vice versa, it can sometimes struggle to fit everything it wants, it's not that strong, at least without Swords Dance boosts, Encore can be annoying, Ice Beam. None of this is foreign territory for me. However, Gliscor the stall breaker and patriot is also deceptively hard to account for in the builder. That, or i'm not looking in the right places.

is Gliscor genuinely a problem, or am I just fumbling against it repeatedly?
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Whenever Gliscor hits the field, it's essentially two mons at once. Do you attack semi-Gliscor A or semi-Gliscor B (Protect?), or do you set up stealth rocks? Will semi-Glisc A use EQ? or will B use Toxic? Will A click SD? Or will B click Facade? It also has the longevity of like 4 mons at once (Leftovers). This mon is very much just a switch in, go stupid, switch out, come back in later and always stay at like 60% HP. If a competitive singles player was asked to design the perfect competitive mon, Gliscor is what they would create. It's so peak I could cry.
 
Roshino said:
Careful friend, those are them's fighting words
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Maybe your woids are fightin' woids.
Cyber-DJ said:
Okay, actually, I keep wondering: Is Gliscor actually a problem or is it just that the meta hasn't adapted to it yet? I've seena lot of takes on the Gliscor fandom and hatebase, and i've been 50/50 on it basically since it's reintroduction.

I have at least a surface level idea on what my goat does; Hazards, Knock Off, SD Facade (bonus points if it's Tera Normal), all that jazz. I know Gliscor is not without fault, either. It's either trading speed for bulk or vice versa, it can sometimes struggle to fit everything it wants, it's not that strong, at least without Swords Dance boosts, Encore can be annoying, Ice Beam. None of this is foreign territory for me. However, Gliscor the stall breaker and patriot is also deceptively hard to account for in the builder. That, or i'm not looking in the right places.

is Gliscor genuinely a problem, or am I just fumbling against it repeatedly?
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The thing about Gliscor is the SD sets, and especially Tera Normal, has somewhat different counterplay than the more passive hazards + Toxic type sets. But for some teams, they already have Fighting types or Fighting moves for Gambit and can possibly pivot this into dealing with a Tera Normal Gliscor. A slower team like stall is almost certainly going to want an Unaware wall like Dondozo, which can also Rest away the potential Toxic status.

I made a post talking about some other tech you can use against Gliscor besides just hitting it with an Ice move here:
Bold School said:
There are other things players can do against Gliscor:

Hex takes advantage of the fact it wants to status itself. This is a super underrated anti-Gliscor tech that only Tera Normal counters.
Taunt can stop basically everything Gliscor wants to do, such as to hazards, SD, toxic, and Protect stalling for more than a turn.
Psychic Noise counters healing. In general, this is a very useful and underrated move.
Neutralizing Gas also counters healing, although one needs to be careful of the Ground weakness.
Magic Bounce counters every Gliscor besides SD pretty hard on Hatt.
Skill Swap can force Gliscor out. It is commonly run on Ribombee, but is available on other mons.
Mighty Cleave is hard to fit since Iron Boulder isn't a real mon, but it does have some use against other Protect stalling sets like Kyurem or Garg.
Pecha Berry... A Gliscor could be cured with Trick Pecha Berry, which is borderline trolling, but still maybe plausible.

PP stalling is more complicated, but this can also work against Gliscor sometimes. At least it can with 16 PP moves like Protect, Toxic, and Earthquake. Getting rid of just one of these can change a lot. Corv is best for this since it has the immunities to Toxic and EQ, but even mons like Kyurem, D-speed, and Weavile can chip away a bit with Pressure when well positioned. If you have Corv and another Pressure mon, even if you are a more offensively oriented team, you can really force the issue on Gliscor's Protect scouting.
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A few things. First, ignore the Pecha Berry thing because, as fringe as this was before I made this post, my testing revealed that this was not even that fringe level of reliable. Sticky Barb Clef would be better because you have more uses for it with stuff like BE mons. It is also easier to proc in many situations. But it's still niche.

Second, note that the PP stalling idea is mainly reliant on Corv, which is already one of the better Gliscor checks. A prior poster got a bit confused on that section and didn't realize I said Corv + another Pressure mon. I would also like to point out that Corv can also either ID up or U-turn out into something else that handles Gliscor, depending on the respective sets. It's a very good mon.

Third, this was a response to a comment that already pointed out mons like Corv and Substitute on faster mons as a means of avoiding Toxic. Another out of comment detail was that a commenter later brought up Hyperspace Fury as another move that bypasses Protect. So there are some other things you can potentially look at.

Fourth, you can sometimes use Air Balloon or Grassy Terrain to help mitigate the Earthquake threat. This is dependent on what kind of team you are building. I didn't mention this in the earlier comment as it requires a lot more nuance and team context. In the right situations, an additional team element like this can help you a lot here.

Finally, I want to reiterate that the SD sets should be seen as somewhat different from the passive sets. If you have something like Hatt or U-turn Corv that deals with the passive sets, you can add other counterplay on your team that also deals with SD like maybe Zama or giving Corv ID. I do think maybe more time should be devoted to laying out counterplay for the SD sets. For example, Sinistcha can be good against the SD set if Gliscor isn't carrying Knock Off. But if it was, you might want something else or you might want a Tera for that.

And so, my advice is to build your team around a multitude of counterplay options if you cannot fit Dozo or ID Corv. Some more offensive teams that play at a faster pace might be able to get away with less. Since a lot of this is stuff you could already find in OU, at least occasionally, it shouldn't be too difficult to build team structures that don't easily lose to Gliscor without compromising too much.
 
sims796 said:
I love Gliscor. I think it's perfectly balanced.
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OMG!

Fuck I log back in to like 14 damn notifications all wtf am I secrectly awesome and just not realize it? I don't even remember posting in the last few days even. Then I click the link!


I swear by all that is holy, that was not even half of the first sentence to the first PARAGRAPH to the REST OF THE DANG POST! I got bored of the post that early to go watch TV, obviously stoned, because how else could you explain such a post!

I want it stricken from the record that I have ever said this! Just be cool! This never happened! Just...be cool :psytear:

This is the stupidest, funniest, ramdom-est shit to happen to me on this site. Fucking embarrassing lol
 
So uh, I'm still finding both these Pokemon a bit hard to fit onto teams but I think Meow + Weavile feel pretty good right now. I don't think either Pokémon really had all that bad of an MU against Kyurem, but both do help fill the void left by that Pokemon as an Ice-type attacker and, more importantly, their key partners like Raging Bolt and Great Tusk feel much stronger with Kyurem gone, as do their targets like Lando-T. In particular, I've been really liking protective pads on Meow, which performs it's intended function of Knockong Off Zapdos / Moltres's boots and beating them long-term with Triple Axel & also not risking helmet chip when clicking Axel against Landorus-t. Weavile's Ice Shard + Crash combo are also both still useful though, especially against Roaring Moon which i still find difficult to answer, especially now that it's running other non-Flying Tera types.

Darkrai does feel a bit better than both Pokémon, but i feel the grap between them isn't as big now, though I'd like to hear other player's opinions on the matter.
 
Well bruhs it is once again time for the 6th edition of The Random Mons Of OU! As always please dm me (through the forums) a pokemon that is ru or above (but not ubers) and tell me whether you wish to be credited or not. Whoever sends the dm first gets their pokemon talked about. Also one more thing I want to establish this time around is that I do not want any duplicates so the pokemon I have done so far (in this order I believe) are maushold, quaquaval, lokix, hoopa unbound, and kommo-o.
 
Magcargo said:
So uh, I'm still finding both these Pokemon a bit hard to fit onto teams but I think Meow + Weavile feel pretty good right now. I don't think either Pokémon really had all that bad of an MU against Kyurem, but both do help fill the void left by that Pokemon as an Ice-type attacker and, more importantly, their key partners like Raging Bolt and Great Tusk feel much stronger with Kyurem gone, as do their targets like Lando-T. In particular, I've been really liking protective pads on Meow, which performs it's intended function of Knockong Off Zapdos / Moltres's boots and beating them long-term with Triple Axel & also not risking helmet chip when clicking Axel against Landorus-t. Weavile's Ice Shard + Crash combo are also both still useful though, especially against Roaring Moon which i still find difficult to answer, especially now that it's running other non-Flying Tera types.

Darkrai does feel a bit better than both Pokémon, but i feel the grap between them isn't as big now, though I'd like to hear other player's opinions on the matter.
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The main issue for me is their lack of real defensive utility thanks to their low bulk. Meow's Protean makes it effectively not a Ghost resist, so you're likely going to have to double up or find a really good answer to Pult. Weavile, while not having Grass STAB to hit Alomomola, speed ties Darkrai, outspeeds Meow, and has priority. Plus it always has Ice and Dark STAB. This means that while Weavile isn't the best Ghost resist, it has enough utility to come in one the stray Shadow Ball and immediately threaten Pult and Ghold with Ice Shard or Knock Off. This in general means Weavile is the better Pokémon for a lot of teams. I'd argue Weavile is OU-worthy for this reason, especially as it's a fantastic Knock Off user on Bulky Hazard Stack, and Meowscarada doesn't deserve OU, although it has a niche in the tier. Feel free to disagree.
 
Well I got the dm from a person who wishes to remain anonymous so we will be covering pecharunt a pokemon that has both a niche in ou and is a pokemon I have barely used (what a surprise lol). As always take everything here with a grain of salt as most of this is my opinion and if I get any actual facts wrong please do not hesitate to correct me.

Anyway pecharunt is a poison ghost type ranked uu who has a niche in ou due to its insane ability and signature move. Poison puppeteer is an ability that confuses the opposing pokemon if they are poisoned and malignant chain is a 100 bp special poison type move that has a 50% chance to badly poison (toxic) the opposing pokemon. As you can probably tell this gives pecharunt the spectacular ou niche of being a broken toxic staller who can destroy pretty much any not steel type if it lands the 50/50 and actually gets the chance in the first place (which I will explain later). It also has a solid movepool with it using hex (to take even further advantage of status) foul play (to punish physical attackers if pecharunt gets the chance) and recover (obviously to heal) as its general moveset in ou.

However pecharunt is flawed in almost every other way. First off poison ghost, while an amazing offensive typing, is really bad defensively for the same reason gengar is ru this gen (rest in peace my boi). Pecharunt is weak to psychic ground ghost and dark all of which are all some of the best most common offensive types in gen 9. While poison ghost also has a ton of good resists and immunities all of these types are still just common enough to give pecharunt a bad time which goes in tandem with pecharunt's next major problem.

Like many pokemon I have talked about so far one of pecharunt's biggest problems is its speed. While pecharunt has really solid bulk (160 defense is definitely good on a pokemon like this) and it isn't crippled by any 4 times weaknesses it is still hit really hard by many of the fastest and most powerful pokemon in the tier for huge super effective damage like darkrai special landorus t and iron crown. This isn't even mentioning the astonishing speed of paradox pokemon.

But finally the biggest nail in the coffin for pecharunt is the existence of steel types. It all started back in gen 2 whe- yeah just kidding we aren't giving a history lesson here. With steel types being immune to all poison type moves (at least from pecharunt) and there being plenty of steel types in ou as well as steel being one of the most popular Tera types sometimes pecharunt doesn't even have the ability to make an impact against certain teams.

With pecharunt's solid bulk and great ability and movepool pecharunt will always have a niche in gen 9 ou but it will probably never be a true ou pokemon due to not being very fast and having a somewhat poor typing defensively as well as offensively when it comes to steel types. What are your thoughts on pecharunt though? This is it for The 6th edition of The Random Mons Of OU so byeeeeeeeeeeeee
 
I made a proposal for a conservative, initial change to suspect reqs in Policy Review here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-suspect-reform.3751555/page-2#post-10295998

This thread is not to be used for that discussion, but I know a lot of people check OU, but not PR, and I felt like bringing it to people’s attention.

This is by no means final or even close. It doesn’t even represent everyone’s views. It’s just my personal thoughts.
 
Since I cant post in that thread here is one thing I would like to suggest about the suspect reqs.

The biggest issues with suspects wasn't really the difficulty but rather the time sink you will have to put in which is in my opinion a meaningless amount of time. As Luigi has already mentioned from the current suspect model, you will have to face a 1/3 or even 2/3 of your run, some unserious shit which defeats the purpose of a suspect. Another thing about using gxe model right now, lowladder can be frustrating even to high level players as lowladder isn't just comprised of memers or casuals but also smurfs that use lowladder as a testing grounds for specific techs against some mons(for example tera ghost fighting type grimmsnarl to counter normal dragonite) and other suspect accounts. And if you get unlucky, you are forced to restart just because you are unlucky even with a good winning streak. A lot of prominent players that don't make mons their lives don't get suspects for that reason. Raising the gxe or putting an elo reqierment WITH gxe doesn't change that much in my opinion as you still have to put a good amount of useless time sink into your run.

I think we should eliminate variance as much as possible and put quality over quantity so here is what I would suggest:
Do away with suspect acounts and let ppl from the 1850 elo or up vote(can be higher or lower). They need to confirm it is them of course. To ensure that ppl cant just camp in high ladder to get the requirement, they need to post a certain amounts of replays against opponents in the 1800s and the replays can't be too old(we can always set the date to our liking). We can make it so they need to post 3 replays but if that is not enough, increase the amount of replays they need to post. Fighting and winning against atleast 5 1800+ opponents is so much more valuable then winning 50 games against <1700s guys. Ppl can still grind of course but it would be a much healthier grind and would let ppl that are competent but don't have the time for this to not be shut out.

I have recently gotten 4 suspects reqs and been around the 1800s-1900s so I feel like I am decently competent at this game to make an informed vote. However I won't always have time available to make these suspect runs and many other ppl that are really competent but can't put such a time into suspects will get shut out due to irl stuff or prepping for ongoing tourneys. There are also others like zio who find grinding lowladder meaningless. It would also address skymins complaint about the smurfing issue.
 
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I think for a first test, Finch's recommendation is plenty fine, and likely even more conservative a raising of the floor than some would like. Feel like when I see suspect accounts be past like, 1710, it's because they toughed it out in spite of a series of losses or early loss while the average post would still be in the 1600s. 1750 seems perfectly fine as a small way to make sure those who could have only made it through on a lucky break have to play a solid, what, 5 or so games at our 1695 usage stats and not throw during those important games to showcase aptitude for the meta/tier.
 
Conflux123 said:
I've been trying to build with Specs :Darkrai: with Knock to be a solid breaker into a lot of team archetypes since it hits a lot of special walls hard while also being able to break really bulky teams with hazards and knock. It also is good into Moltres since you can knock on the switch and then get rocks up. Any chance that Specs Darkrai becomes used a lot?
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Wouldn’t HDB be a better option for this set to preserve longevity and make predicting less of a chore so you don’t have to lock into weak Knock Offs? Alternatively, Expert Belt is a solid option for doing extra damage while still not locking yourself into Knock Off.
 
SDK03 said:
Expert Belt is a solid option for doing extra damage while still not locking yourself into Knock Off.
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I second this. Expert Belt Darkrai is quite nice. Extra damge, yet still having extra longevity thanks to not having Life Orb's recoil, and not locking into a move with Specs. And the damage difference is still very relevant inspite of only being a 20% boost. For example:

252 SpA Darkrai Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 208-246 (69.1 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock.

252 SpA Expert Belt Darkrai Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 250-295 (83 - 98%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock.
 
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