Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[solrock the great]

ik this is probably going to be VERY much opinions others have stated, but i still want to say this anyways. I find the suspect system to be wildly unfair, and raising reqs or adding a qualified thread dont seem like good ways to "fix" them. it feels less like it makes sure the people voting care about the tier, and more like its weeding out the unwanteds. the fact that good players who obviously could get reqs if they could will choose not too, imo more than speaks as to how bad the system is. if people didnt care about the tier, they wouldnt care to get reqs, and vote. this is a bit of a stretch, and both examples are def of diff sizes, but they are the only comperable things i could think to ou suspect voting. if people cant be bothered irl to vote, why do you think they would be bothered to vote in the smogon forums? also, other places on the forums where there are votes that are open to just about anyone, dont get many votes, the last OM nomination only had around 37 votes, when there is definitely more than 37 people who play OMs. the quality of the vote absolutely isnt getting diluted if little timmy has a better shot at reqs, cause timmy doesnt have time nor skill enough to get reqs, even if they were pushed to the lowest anyone would reasonably set them. as for the alt thread, im..... willing to hear it out, but imo it doesnt make sense. the opinions of good players should already stand out by default, be it the badges on their profile, their name being well known, or having a good arguement. also, needing to get reqs on the last suspect as well for the thread, is plain dumb. by the time of the next suspect, getting reqs for kyurem will not have mattered. if it did, getting reqs once would give them for the next suspect, which is obvs never happening. as for the thread in policy reveiw, i hard agree with everything Luigi and Alternator said there. this post is probs a better fit for that thread, but im not gonna bother with tryna get someone to post it for me. one last thing, imo, smogon needs to care more about non tour players. i understand catering to them since, ya know, smogon is about comp, but there are so many other people who play the metagames hosted here, and their voices should be heard too, not just the 1%.

(edit: the point AM said in their post is pretty much what i meant with the oms part, i probs coulda said the better. oh well. smth to do better next essay.
)

(edit to avoid double posting: cg ou reqs are far more challenging than uu/ubers reqs, due there being so many more people on ladder than other tiers, which means so many more people who could be skilled enough to be a roadblock in a suspect run. and samples are only good low ladder, any competent player can probs recognize samples/common teams, ou reqs and uu reqs are different things, and should be treated as such. if reqs were this easy, i wouldve voted ban on kyu last suspect.)

 

[AM]

snip / if people cant be bothered irl to vote, why do you think they would be bothered to vote in the smogon forums? also, other places on the forums where there are votes that are open to just about anyone, dont get many votes, the last OM nomination only had around 37 votes, when there is definitely more than 37 people who play OMs. /snip

I've said my opinion on discord when I agreed mostly with Pais post in the PR thread (Luigi's as well) but I don't think this is a fair comparison. I like OM, I play a few of them when tours come up, great community, etc, but I don't vote in those threads because I don't ladder and as such have no vested interest to do so. The ladder activity for some OMS especially the monthly ones is also quite abysmal, it can take a long time to find a game back when I did try the ladders (edit: compared to OU that is). I snipped the other stuff because mostly wanted to comment on this and I feel everything else has been either touched upon by others in various threads, also don't want to detract too much from meta thread.

 

[Wigglytuff]

Just to give a mostly outside perspective on the 2 threads and raising reqs discourse:

2 threads

I think what's not being acknowledged by people that are against this idea (mostly forum mainers, because I can't think of a single established player that disagrees with the idea of a qualified thread) is that after a certain point, discussion on a suspect is necessarily subjective and based on the qualifications and judgment of the person posting.

There are certain things where it doesn't matter what Elo you have, what GXE you have, how many trophies you have etc because they are factual or objective. If 98% GXE God Pokemon Player started posting about how Kyurem has 500 base SpA, that they have 98% GXE has no bearing on whether or not they're wrong (they're wrong). And if I, a lowly 65% GXE peasant, posted and said "that shit's wrong," my low ranking would have no bearing on whether or not I was right. Because it's just factually wrong.

But when a Pokemon is being suspected, not quickbanned by the council, there's enough ambiguity into whether it's broken/uncompetitive/unhealthy that it's left up to voters to decide. There is no right or wrong answer, it's left up to democracy. So if 98% GXE God Pokemon Player says "in my experience, it's true that you can't really defensively answer Kyurem. But it's adequately addressed offensively through many of the top used mons forcing it out and its more immediately threatening sets being very vulnerable to rocks. I'm voting DNB and if you qualify, I think you should too," that they have 98% GXE lends a lot of credence to their argument. And if I (65% GXE lowly peasant) posted disagreeing, that I have 65% GXE would hurt my credibility a lot because it's almost guaranteed that I'm just too shit at the game to know what I'm talking about.

The best quality discussion would be 2 skilled and established players that disagree with each other talking it out and responding to each other's points, and then people that got reqs can follow that discussion and ultimately decide on which one they agree more with when it comes time to cast their vote. That just doesn't happen with the current threads, though, because you (hypothetical skilled and established player) get a lot of wrong and honestly weird responses (1, 2). Who actually wants to post in a thread where these are the responses you get?

A qualified thread will most likely filter out most of this garbage and it's going to be a net positive to everyone: players that get reqs get better quality info to cast their vote with, players that don't get reqs can see what the arguments are, and newer posters can see what high quality discussion looks like and hopefully emulate it themselves down the line.

raising difficulty for reqs

I've qualified and voted for 7 suspect tests in my time on Smogon, 6 UU and 1 Ubers. I think I maybe knew enough about the meta to cast an informed vote in like 2 of them, both of which were during SM UU. I knew almost nothing about SS UU, which were the other 4 votes, and I've never known a single fucking thing about Ubers at any point of my illustrious Pocket Monsters career.

Reqs are simply not difficult if you have a baseline competency at Pokemon. Sample teams are more than good enough to qualify, so you don't need to know jack shit about what it's like to build teams in the current metagame. And yet the complaint is that raising the honestly bottom of the floor reqs would be elitist??? In what world???

I could write another 10 paragraphs about how reqs aren't bad, how to approach it, acknowledge that there might be problems with using GXE, etc, but ultimately what it boils down to is this: if you can't achieve 80% GXE in 50 games or whatever it is, I don't want you to have any impact on any suspect. In the ideal situation, I don't even want me, someone that can do that, to have an impact on most suspects because I don't follow any metagames! It simply is not hard to build the fundamentals to be consistent enough to get 80% GXE and literally anyone can do it within a year, tops, with dedicated practice. The reqs should be set higher to capture players that are both invested in the tier (they play it, ladder it, maybe even post about it) and are also skilled at it. Anything less would be a disservice.

 

[pika pal]

Rest is a guaranteed 2-turn sleep, so it's a lot more consistent than that. I'd only really recommend rest Ting-Lu if you're running it on boots spam for whatever reason.

I think he was referring to Sleep Talk calling Rest and thus wasting the turn (on top of the RNG of the other moves it picks from benefitting you at the moment) when he cited RNG, given the 1-in-3 odds, as the simple wake-up odds are a consistent hurdle to deal with in their own right.

I feel like with how fat Ting is, if it runs Rest you'd just want a 3rd move for while it's awake instead of using one to MAYBE do something substantial while waiting it out.

 

[FruitLoopBoop]

> Positive matchup into Valiant
> Positive matchup into Gking
> Positive matchup into Waterpon
> Positive matchup into Rilla
> Close Combat for Gambit
> Knock for Ghold

I Believe in Scizor. Ive been using this set:
Scizor (F) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- U-turn
- Bullet Punch
- Knock Off
- Close Combat

edit: i think tera water is pretty good defensively too, or maybe tera fire

And I've been enjoying it a lot. Its actually crazy funny to see a corv u turn out before you and you get the moment on em

 

[viivian]

> Positive matchup into Valiant
> Positive matchup into Gking
> Positive matchup into Waterpon
> Positive matchup into Rilla
> Close Combat for Gambit
> Knock for Ghold

I Believe in Scizor. Ive been using this set:
Scizor (F) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- U-turn
- Bullet Punch
- Knock Off
- Close Combat

edit: i think tera water is pretty good defensively too, or maybe tera fire

And I've been enjoying it a lot. Its actually crazy funny to see a corv u turn out before you and you get the moment on em

while i think scizor is definitely a great pokemon even after kyurem's ban, i don't know if you'd want to run AV on it. it typically runs choice band or offensive swords dance sets this gen; since it no longer has roost and thus struggles a lot as a bulky pivot, you really wanna capitalize on the amount of damage you can do with bullet punch + coverage. the added bulk isn't really important outside of matchups scizor was already going to win, and the loss of power starts to become more glaringly obvious whenever you load this set into balance or fat. it's a neat idea in theory but it falls apart in practice when people aren't scrambling to find a decent kyurem check anymore

 

[EpicGuy321]

Tbh, while Iron Crown was indeed a good check to Kyurem (same with Tinkaton with a balloon), it's not like that's all that they do, or they wouldn't have been able to be so used. They have both solid utility outside of the Kyurem MU that will make them still really strong after Kyurem's ban.

--> Mold Breaker sets can setup rocks in front of Hatterene and can status both Gholdengo and Garganacl. Pickpocket balloon Knock Off sets can ruin stuff like boots Moltres really easily to ease teammates like Weavile, Meowscarada, Zamazenta, Booster Great Tusk, Physical IVal etcetera. Has Giganton Hammer for strong neutral damage and Ice Hammer for Gliscor and Landorus. Also has utility like Encore.

--> Insane aganist Glimmora (deniying this Pokémon is deniying half of the ladder's strategies XD) and brings a lot of utility to a team with Psychic Noise + Pivot in Volt Switch + Psychic Noise to punish Pokémon that try to heal. It's not fragile at all and it can take any hit at least once for example. I think that boosting sets can be more used as people have to respect AV / specs variants

I don't know why some people think Tink is going to fall off the face of the earth post-Kyu ban. Checking Darkrai is massive, and even Roaring Moon! Air Balloon walls for one turn. Tink and Crown vs Kyurem is not like Seismitoad vs Dracovish.

 

[UltraSword]

I want to jump on this scizor discussion real fast before it stops being talked about. To be fair kyurem was legal for most of September but even so scizor wasn't that far off from being ou by usage (approximately 0.8%) so do you guys think scizor could ever be ou?

 

[EpicGuy321]

I want to jump on this scizor discussion real fast before it stops being talked about. To be fair kyurem was legal for most of September but even so scizor wasn't that far off from being ou by usage (approximately 0.8%) so do you guys think scizor could ever be ou?

No. Every bird beats it and it just isn't that great in general. If it had better bulk, maybe. Defensive typing is good though.

 

[quacc]

Am I missing something or is RestTalk Ting-Lu really bad? I'll see it or use it every once in a while, but I can't recall it ever bringing anything to a game? If I'm just being dumb, I'd love to hear what people think about it.

Nah u right it's hella mid imo

I always feel like this mon isn't even that great of a wall per-se, just a great 1-2 time check to a lotta shit and it just gets hazards up along the way (also why I don't like boots on this 'mon). Rest talk axes hazards and you don't even counter Gholdengo anyways because it just teras on your ass (which was always the issue with Ting-Lu as the only answer to Gholdengo in the first place), Raging Bolt pops booster both cases, Iron Moth pops booster both cases, it's aight against wisp mons like Dragapult and Darkrai, but that's kinda it. It worked on the CTC edit of the Blimax team cause Kyurem could force progress by itself and you got Cinderace, but even then no hazards of your own can suck sometimes.

 

[Magcargo]

So I'm probably late to talking about this since afaik this was a thing for a while, but I've been using boots Raging Bolt more on balance teams and I like it. It offers a ton of offensive utility in one slot between its powerful priority for Darkrai / Kingambit, great match-up into the standard sun / rain team (which can be a bit annoying for balance teams due to typically lacking Water-resist), pivoting, and strong Draco that OHKOes most Ground-types, including the fast SD Gliscor players have been complaining about recently. I really like that its able to do that while also compressing incredibly valuable defensive utility against various annoying Pokemon like Zapdos, Ogerpon-W, and T-Wave Hex Gholdengo, as well as some additional defensive utility with Tera against other difficult Pokemon to handle like Zamazenta. I like pairing it with Corviknight - the two have very nice defensive synergy and Corv can help against some of the awkward MUs vs Gliscor, Clodsire, etc. while also forming a decent pivoting core. Gets annoying by GKing, but eh, you can Volt Switch out of that fraud into Samu or Ting-Lu or something and cook so its not too bad imo.

I do think Raging Bolt is still one of the more insane Pokemon introduced in the DLC (even more than Kyurem / Goug arguably) but sets like Boots that showcase the wide reach of its talents make me appreciate it having it around just a bit. With Gouging Fire for example, I never really liked it outside of HO with Booster energy because it felt like it didn't offer enough defensive / offensive utility besides being a wincon sometimes (which IMO Kingambit did a bit better while olso having priority to emergency check some threats). Kyurem did have a bit more to offer with its boots set which could run some cool moves like Dragon Tail, but also felt like it didn't provide much beyond valuable utility beyond maybe cheesing the opponent with Freeze here and there & serving as an Ice Beamer for Gliscor. I like how Raging Bolt's pivoting + priority combo gives it more flexibility compared to the aforementioned Pokemon, while also making it a bit more unique than similar Pokemon like Kingambit and Dragonite.

 

[Shaymin Sky]

So I'm probably late to talking about this since afaik this was a thing for a while, but I've been using boots Raging Bolt more on balance teams and I like it. It offers a ton of offensive utility in one slot between its powerful priority for Darkrai / Kingambit, great match-up into the standard sun / rain team (which can be a bit annoying for balance teams due to typically lacking Water-resist), pivoting, and strong Draco that OHKOes most Ground-types, including the fast SD Gliscor players have been complaining about recently. I really like that its able to do that while also compressing incredibly valuable defensive utility against various annoying Pokemon like Zapdos, Ogerpon-W, and T-Wave Hex Gholdengo, as well as some additional defensive utility with Tera against other difficult Pokemon to handle like Zamazenta. I like pairing it with Corviknight - the two have very nice defensive synergy and Corv can help against some of the awkward MUs vs Gliscor, Clodsire, etc. while also forming a decent pivoting core. Gets annoying by GKing, but eh, you can Volt Switch out of that fraud into Samu or Ting-Lu or something and cook so its not too bad imo.

I do think Raging Bolt is still one of the more insane Pokemon introduced in the DLC (even more than Kyurem / Goug arguably) but sets like Boots that showcase the wide reach of its talents make me appreciate it having it around just a bit. With Gouging Fire for example, I never really liked it outside of HO with Booster energy because it felt like it didn't offer enough defensive / offensive utility besides being a wincon sometimes (which IMO Kingambit did a bit better while olso having priority to emergency check some threats). Kyurem did have a bit more to offer with its boots set which could run some cool moves like Dragon Tail, but also felt like it didn't provide much beyond valuable utility beyond maybe cheesing the opponent with Freeze here and there & serving as an Ice Beamer for Gliscor. I like how Raging Bolt's pivoting + priority combo gives it more flexibility compared to the aforementioned Pokemon, while also making it a bit more unique than similar Pokemon like Kingambit and Dragonite.

Boots Raging Bolt feels pretty good against those Samurott-Hisui/Deoxys-Speed HO and offense teams, as they lack good Sp.Def bulk overall and Raging Bolt ignoring spikes is super clutch. Thing is Gliscor is used on basically everything else and nowadays they are primarily Sp.Def invested usually with SD to threaten a variety of stuff including Raging Bolt. You sort of become setup fodder to Swords Dance Gliscor which is pretty bad, and for this I feel like Choice Specs Raging Bolt is best right now. Fairy's are basically at an all time low (besides Tinkaton who can't do shit to Bolt lol it's not coming in), everyone is spamming Gliscor as their only Bolt answer ngl, which means clicking specs Raging bolt Draco Meteor has never been more free. While hazards are annoying for Specs Raging Bolt, those same teams stacking up Spikes 24/7 have Sp.Def SD Gliscor anyways to make Boots pivot Bolt have way less value.

 

[UltraSword]

Boots Raging Bolt feels pretty good against those Samurott-Hisui/Deoxys-Speed HO and offense teams, as they lack good Sp.Def bulk overall and Raging Bolt ignoring spikes is super clutch. Thing is Gliscor is used on basically everything else and nowadays they are primarily Sp.Def invested usually with SD to threaten a variety of stuff including Raging Bolt. You sort of become setup fodder to Swords Dance Gliscor which is pretty bad, and for this I feel like Choice Specs Raging Bolt is best right now. Fairy's are basically at an all time low (besides Tinkaton who can't do shit to Bolt lol it's not coming in), everyone is spamming Gliscor as their only Bolt answer ngl, which means clicking specs Raging bolt Draco Meteor has never been more free. While hazards are annoying for Specs Raging Bolt, those same teams stacking up Spikes 24/7 have Sp.Def SD Gliscor anyways to make Boots pivot Bolt have way less value.

Out of curiosity why is tinkaton bad into raging bolt?

 

[Conflux123]

Out of curiosity why is tinkaton bad into raging bolt?

Generally it's only attacking moves will be Knock and Gigaton Hammer, and its main way of annoying stuff is encore and twave. Bolt takes like nothing from all of these options as the most Tink can do is set up rocks, and Tink has no recovery anyway so it doesn't make sense to switch it into Bolt in the first place.

 

[Seronius]

Can someone explain to me why clef is good in today's meta? I've used it and its only good on bulky balance or stall and those playstyles are really bad right now

 

[Magcargo]

Can someone explain to me why clef is good in today's meta? I've used it and its only good on bulky balance or stall and those playstyles are really bad right now

Personally I've of the opinion that it's a bit mediocre. It's got it's perks for sure thanks to sticky barb letting it check booster Pokémon, Magic Gaurd in hazard infested meta game, and a wide variety of tools like Ice Beam for Gliscor, Rocks, Wish, etc. Being one of the few Pokemon that doesnt care about Garganacl's Salt Cure is also awesome. However, Moonlight is fairly poor as recovery in a Gking metagame and I find it's statline and mixed bulk to be powercrept in a Raging Bolt / Great Tusk metagame, where it's struggling to take hits from a lot of these Pokemon and types it would have few issues against in the past. Mons like Zamazenta and Darkrai will give it trouble for example. It's a perfectly fine, B+ Pokémon because it's innate traits are quite good, and it's really awesome on teams looking to minimize passive damage, but I also feel that it's nowhere near the same beast it was in prior gens. I find myself liking to run Tinkaton more currently because of its better speed, typing, and Encore, and I feel that several other lower tier Fairy Pokémon like Florges, Sylveon, or Fezandipti may be better options on teams that want a more specialized Raging Bolt / Kyurem (when that was legal) check in the short term (though these Pokemon's discrepancy in value compared to Clefable is likely more clear in higher levels of play where there is a bigger emphasis on Entry Hazards / passive damage).

Unaware CM / Cosmic Power sets are still evil though

 

[BolTingBlazie]

just being in ou again doesn't necessarily make it as great as it was before. pex is way too passive now to effectively fit on a lot of the team structures it was fitting on in 7 and 8. it used to be way more splashable because it had the extremely good progress-making tools of scald and knock off. nowadays the infamous "the pex" set has to make do with surf or liquidation off of absolutely miserable offensive stats, if it runs an attack at all, and its main way of making progress is through toxic, which is not really a fantastic way of doing that (both because there are a lot of good poison-immune mons and because toxic's immediate damage is very small and you can reset it via switching so switch-heavy teams aren't affected by it as much as they'd be from scald or knock off). recently people have expanded into assault vest pex, but honestly i'm not buying it because its best progress-making tools are "hope the opponent stays in after an acid spray" and "pray for ice beam or sludge bomb to proc"

Hell Toxapex while fine isn’t even that good in UU so it could even be RU in a while which is a huge fall if this happens

Also Air Balloon Iron Crown seems like an interesting check into Gliscor (Especially ones not carrying knock) that can easily punish non stab teras, and naturally can outspeed too so that could be worth exploring for those who are looking for gliscor checks. Also it can click psychic noise and stop poison heal too! I still think iron crown is still really good and that not much has changed with it even when Kyurem is gone

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Also Air Balloon Iron Crown seems like an interesting check into Gliscor (Especially ones not carrying knock) that can easily punish non stab teras, and naturally can outspeed too so that could be worth exploring for those who are looking for gliscor checks. Also it can click psychic noise and stop poison heal too! I still think iron crown is still really good and that not much has changed with it even when Kyurem is gone

i agree. over in convergence, the om of the month, i've been using levitate iron crown to defensively check knockless lando-t (which in that format is basically just sd gliscor but better), and that got me thinking about balloon crown as a gliscor answer over here. the main issue i see with it is that if you lose your balloon you do just kinda get goobed by gliscor's most common attack, but you can at the absolute least outspeed and heavily chunk it and you stand to win the whole interaction if you do end up coming in on an sd or eq

 

[EpicGuy321]

| 126 | Incineroar | 0.238% |

consistently being top 140 usage makes me happy. Maybe I should try it out again. Maybe if gets banned (I doubt it’s banworthy). It still has a great matchup into , , , , and generally just puts in lots of work with nothing in the meta wanting to take Wisp and Knock, except of course. Note: Knocks with no risk of burn.

 

[Shaymin Sky]

i agree. over in convergence, the om of the month, i've been using levitate iron crown to defensively check knockless lando-t (which in that format is basically just sd gliscor but better), and that got me thinking about balloon crown as a gliscor answer over here. the main issue i see with it is that if you lose your balloon you do just kinda get goobed by gliscor's most common attack, but you can at the absolute least outspeed and heavily chunk it and you stand to win the whole interaction if you do end up coming in on an sd or eq

Balloon Iron Crown isn't a reliable check to Gliscor, you don't do enough damage to the Sp.def variants and isn't that good at threatening max HP Gliscor.

252 SpA Iron Crown Tachyon Cutter (2 hits) vs. 244 HP / 228+ SpD Gliscor: 138-164 (39.2 - 46.5%) -- approx. 82.6% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal
shave off 12% due to healing on same turn, not including possible Protect afterwards, and it's 27%-34% damage vs Sp.Def

252 SpA Iron Crown Tachyon Cutter (2 hits) vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 200-236 (56.8 - 67%) -- approx. 2HKO after Poison Heal
Even this damage is negligible even without a Swords Dance boost since double knock still does great damage, you Knock it on switch in and again the following turn. Again shave off 12% this damage is 44%-55%, and then with Protect afterwards it's 32%-43%. This Pokémon healing the same turn it takes damage is actually so ridiculous lol.

Gliscor runs Knock Off on almost every set it has even on non Swords Dance, so it's not like this situation won't happen where Iron Crown ends up taking Knock Off damage. Also in the matchup against Swords Dance Gliscor it will just setup and threaten Iron Crown pretty badly.

+2 0 Atk Gliscor Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Crown: 268-316 (83.4 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Conflux123]

I've been trying to build with Specs with Knock to be a solid breaker into a lot of team archetypes since it hits a lot of special walls hard while also being able to break really bulky teams with hazards and knock. It also is good into Moltres since you can knock on the switch and then get rocks up. Any chance that Specs Darkrai becomes used a lot?

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Gliscor runs Knock Off on almost every set it has even on non Swords Dance, so it's not like this situation won't happen where Iron Crown ends up taking Knock Off damage. Also in the matchup against Swords Dance Gliscor it will just setup and threaten Iron Crown pretty badly.

+2 0 Atk Gliscor Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Crown: 268-316 (83.4 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

yeah and then you hit em with the min speed metal burst and-

 

[WohMi]

my lord i hate gliscor. send post

 

[UltraSword]

my lord i hate gliscor. send post

My lord I hate darkrai. Send bad sleeping pill

 

[Finchinator]

I've been trying to build with Specs with Knock to be a solid breaker into a lot of team archetypes since it hits a lot of special walls hard while also being able to break really bulky teams with hazards and knock. It also is good into Moltres since you can knock on the switch and then get rocks up. Any chance that Specs Darkrai becomes used a lot?

Why not just use trick at this point?